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post #12931 of 13103 Old 10-02-2019, 08:29 AM
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Originally Posted by thebeeguy View Post
Decades TV in now on WJBK 2.5.
I hope Comcast picks them up soon

how Bit-starved is the OTA signal?
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post #12932 of 13103 Old 10-02-2019, 09:14 AM
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I hope Comcast picks them up soon

how Bit-starved is the OTA signal?

I watched a little bit of it on Monday and it seemed like every time there was fast movement on the screen it was very pixaly.
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post #12933 of 13103 Old 10-02-2019, 09:58 AM
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Decades TV in now on WJBK 2.5.
Thanks for the headsup. Doing a scan now on my HDHomeRun tuners.
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post #12934 of 13103 Old 10-04-2019, 03:04 PM
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They're slowly, but surely, turning HDTV back into SDTV


We almost never watch those second-hand subchannels.
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post #12935 of 13103 Old 10-04-2019, 11:56 PM
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Originally Posted by SEMIJim View Post
They're slowly, but surely, turning HDTV back into SDTV

Unfortunately, yes.


WWJ has added 62.3, Dabl.



https://www.cbscorporation.com/dabl-...aunches-today/

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post #12936 of 13103 Old 10-05-2019, 07:25 AM
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Originally Posted by SEMIJim View Post
They're slowly, but surely, turning HDTV back into SDTV

We almost never watch those second-hand subchannels.
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Originally Posted by Ken H View Post
Unfortunately, yes.

WWJ has added 62.3, Dabl.

https://www.cbscorporation.com/dabl-...aunches-today/
A lot has to do with the encoders. If a station has the latest up-to-date encoders, then it's possible to have 1 HD and 4 or 5 SD subchannels that look just as good or better than 2000 era encoders utilizing 1 HD and 1 SD or 2 subchannels. What I don't understand is that some stations will set a second HD subchannel at a really low bit rate in 720p. The PQ of that channel is no better than 480i SD, so what's the purpose other than using slightly more bandwidth?

SEMIJim. I would have to disagree with you. I watch those "second-hand" networks more than the major networks. There sometimes can be a lot of good shows to watch, even if the vast majority of them are re-runs. If you're into older cartoons, I suggest that you tune into MeTV weekdays at 6 PM as they recently acquired The Flintstones, something that hasn't been seen on broadcast television in over 20 years. The only time when these additional channels become mostly useless to me is during weekend E/I programming, in which almost all the diginets air nothing but animal shows, many of which air the same program. (ex: Dog Tales)

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post #12937 of 13103 Old 10-05-2019, 07:34 AM
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Originally Posted by snowdog 88 View Post
If you're into older cartoons, I suggest that you tune into MeTV weekdays at 6 PM as they recently acquired The Flintstones, something that hasn't been seen on broadcast television in over 20 years.
"yabba-dabba-doo"!!! Sorry, I just had to let that out. Have a thing for old cartoons. Thanks for letting me know it still exists there, probably gonna watch it sometime.
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post #12938 of 13103 Old 10-05-2019, 05:37 PM
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What I don't understand is that some stations will set a second HD subchannel at a really low bit rate in 720p. The PQ of that channel is no better than 480i SD, so what's the purpose other than using slightly more bandwidth?
My guess? Satisfying a contract that, presumably, pays extra for carriage in HD.

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post #12939 of 13103 Old 10-05-2019, 06:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Trip in VA View Post
My guess? Satisfying a contract that, presumably, pays extra for carriage in HD.

- Trip
True, but I still can't understand why Court TV on WEWS 5.4 is in 720p where WXYZ 7.4 is in 480i. Both stations and even Court TV are owned by Scripps, but it appears that 98% of Court TV's affiliates are transmitted in 480i, so why did WEWS end up transmitting them in 720p? I don't think the reason was "because we have more efficient encoders". Perhaps it was just an oversight.

I also recently noticed that WVIZ converted PBS Kids on 25.5 to 720p. Picture quality is not all that better compared to when they were in 480i, and it tends to be on the soft side, mimicking SD. Their other subchannels (.2-.4) look slightly worse now, almost to the point of what their old encoders produced prior to launching PBS Kids on .5. I doubt that their viewing audience can tell or even care about 25.5 being in HD, so making this change was unnecessary in my opinion.

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post #12940 of 13103 Old 10-05-2019, 09:45 PM
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Originally Posted by snowdog 88 View Post
A lot has to do with the encoders. If a station has the latest up-to-date encoders, then it's possible to have 1 HD and 4 or 5 SD subchannels that look just as good or better than 2000 era encoders utilizing 1 HD and 1 SD or 2 subchannels.
Uh, yes, I'm familiar with how encoders have drastically improved and how creative use of bandwidth can allow broadcasters to cram in more subchannels while supposedly not affecting HD image quality. The Tower Of Power song 'Only So Much Oil In The Ground" comes to mind.



The fact of the matter is that HD image quality is not what is used to be, and most likely will never be again. When you have major providers like Comcast downconverting most all (except local 1080i stations) of the 1080i channels they get to 720p, what difference does it make when a local station adds another subchannel, or two. Or three.



And 4K will probably also collapse on itself because of this. At least we had a golden age of HD before the money took over.



/rant

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post #12941 of 13103 Old 10-06-2019, 06:40 AM
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The fact of the matter is that HD image quality is not what is used to be, and most likely will never be again. When you have major providers like Comcast downconverting most all (except local 1080i stations) of the 1080i channels they get to 720p, what difference does it make when a local station adds another subchannel, or two. Or three.
To your point, it would help if PQ mattered to the general public, but it doesn't. These are the same people who think mp3s and streaming music sounds just fine. They'll listen to FM and be happy with it when, for a little more, an HD Radio will bring them superb sound. Look at cell phones. Crappier call audio quality than a wired phone from 40 years ago. But who cares so long as you can text people and check social media accounts?

The fact that MPVDs still supply standard-definition programming and still make money from it is another big clue. There is still a significant segment of the population watching standard-definition programming on 1080p flatscreens. Heck, judging from the parking lot where they hold the bi-monthly electronics recycling collections, there's a truckload of people just now giving up their 3:2 RPTVs. It's insane at the number of those that turn up each recycling day.

As for 4K, it's out there, but nobody wants to pay for it. Reading through threads on AVSForum, you'll see people gripe about Netflix's 4K surcharge. DirecTV, which has the best linear 4K programming is losing subscribers, not gaining. You'd think if PQ mattered that much, DirecTV would be posting big subscriber gains, driving the other cablecos into matching them. It's not happening.

About encoders. The NBC affiliate in Tampa (WFLA) channel-shares with a (now) co-owned independent. That's two HD and three SD diginets. Their CE has done a marvelous job with the latest-greatest encoder Nexstar would approve. WTTA gets enough bandwidth to look fine given its largely syndicated programming and rebroadcasts of WFLA's news programming. Primetime "filmed" fare is decent on both HD channels. On the weekends, things change. WFLA gets whatever bandwidth it needs to have an artifact-free sports broadcast. That throttles WTTA during times few are watching, anyway. This works very well except during severe weather on the weekend when NBC programming gets ported to WTTA. Yeah, that looks pretty bad, but the weather graphics on WFLA look amazing! /sarcasm. I have to say, Sunday Night Football on bandwidth-packed WFLA looks better than what WDIV had with NO diginets in 2005.

To the topic, CBS O&Os were the last to give in to adding diginets, preferring the better picture quality. Those early NFL games on WWJ looked amazing. However, picture quality doesn't move the ratings needle. Golf can look spectacular, but it doesn't draw any more viewers than would watch golf ANYway. CBS had to cave when they were getting beat on the streets. Stations with diginets could offer value-added advertising inventory: "Buy an ad package on WJBK and we'll throw in spots on Movies! for free." WWJ couldn't do that. Advertisers, like the public, are drawn to what they perceive as a freebie. Money to lease out the diginets and inventory to offer local advertisers. Hard for a station to say "no" to that. Especially when the public doesn't complain about the PQ loss.

No, wait.. it's not the public.. it's the advertiser. I can tell you from personal experience an advertiser complaining about the way his/her spots look will do more to get a station to buy new gear than anything.

Speaking of advertising, I think we all know a consortium of Detroit stations plans to launch an ATSC 3.0 broadcast in the future. If I know them, it's not about bringing you 4k broadcasts as 4k won't move the ratings needle. It's about getting live local stations in automobile seatback systems. THAT they can sell.

/rant
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post #12942 of 13103 Old 10-06-2019, 08:43 AM
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I have never noticed a decrease in quality on the main HD channel after a station upgraded their encoders. They always tend to look much better and less MPEG-y than before.

Also, many stations with VBR encoders are configured to take away bandwidth from their subchannels and provide it to their main HD channel if the picture starts to become bit starved. I've noticed that my local MeTV affiliate (WOIO 19.2) will become blurry during the beginning of Price Is Right (WOIO 19.1) while contestants are being called down to the bidder's row. I'm sure if CBS bought up-to-date encoders for all of their O&O stations, they could have keep Decades on .2, added Start TV to .3 and eventually DABL to .4 with hardly any degradation to their main HD channel.

Speaking of Nexstar... Now that they own WJW here in Cleveland, I hope they buy some newer encoders for them. WJW is still using fixed rate encoders, probably from the early to mid 2000's. It wasn't bad when they had 1 HD (FOX) and 1 SD (Antenna TV), but in 2017 they added 8.3 (Comet) & 8.4 (Charge) to their lineup and the picture quality really took a hit. 1 HD & 3 SD subs should be nothing nowadays. Heck, there's a station here with 1 HD & 5 SD, and the picture quality on their SD channels looks much better compared to WJW. Furthermore, WJW can't even transmit Comet & Charge in 480i widescreen because their encoders are so old that they presumably don't support that feature, so logos, phone numbers & other graphics are constantly being hacked off the sides. Their encoders also suffer from problems such as picture misalignment and the green plaque, which were common problems with early encoders.
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post #12943 of 13103 Old 10-06-2019, 10:44 AM
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To your point, it would help if PQ mattered to the general public, but it doesn't. These are the same people who think mp3s and streaming music sounds just fine. They'll listen to FM and be happy with it when, for a little more, an HD Radio will bring them superb sound. Look at cell phones. Crappier call audio quality than a wired phone from 40 years ago. But who cares so long as you can text people and check social media accounts?
Just a minor quibble with the above statement. I was moderately/ slightly excited when I bought a new AVR and discovered it had HD Radio capabilities. Did a scan found exactly ONE HD station in my area and tuned in and it sounded just as crappy as the regular station. Have to agree about cell phone voice quality, I've had a cell sine the mid '80s and the quality has gone down there too over the years.

If we want to talk about declining HD TV quality, there are stations locally that never even bothered to get it right from the start a decade ago. I refuse to watch my Flint locals because none of them ever got 5.1 audio correct. I repeatedly called early on and told them of problems, got ignored. I tuned in last week for the heck of it and some of the stations sounded hollow, others were missing something. The Detroit stations all sound much better. Luckily I live in an area I call the golden triangle, with a rotor I have my choice of Flint, Detroit or Lansing stations - all come in strong - but I just leave my antenna pointed at Detroit.
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post #12944 of 13103 Old 10-06-2019, 01:51 PM
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Just a minor quibble with the above statement. I was moderately/ slightly excited when I bought a new AVR and discovered it had HD Radio capabilities. Did a scan found exactly ONE HD station in my area and tuned in and it sounded just as crappy as the regular station.
I'll give you that. There are more than a few stations in smaller towns without a dedicated engineer. You get one engineer bicycling between 20 stations, even the analog audio isn't right.

I envy you. I've had to jack my BA HD Radio into my AVR and connect it to my antenna array. The Classical station here in Tampa is simply delicious. The rest of the music stations are noticeably better - you can clearly hear the digital engage. OTOH, sports AM WDAE is simulcasted on an HD-2 subchannel and has been overmodulated for years.

You're right. A lot of television stations never got it right. For the ones who do, a gift card or even a thank-you card means a lot to these guys. And girls.

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post #12945 of 13103 Old 10-06-2019, 03:32 PM
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True, but I still can't understand why Court TV on WEWS 5.4 is in 720p where WXYZ 7.4 is in 480i. Both stations and even Court TV are owned by Scripps, but it appears that 98% of Court TV's affiliates are transmitted in 480i, so why did WEWS end up transmitting them in 720p? I don't think the reason was "because we have more efficient encoders". Perhaps it was just an oversight.
Oops! I accidentally installed a more expensive encoder completely by mistake!

I think the answer here is obvious.

https://pearltv.com/news/scripps-wmy...ision-station/

Bandwidth is being preserved for future use. Presumably, either 20-1 or 20-2/20-3 will land on the WXYZ signal, while 20-2/20-3 or 20-1 will land on WDIV. This will allow the WMYD signal to convert to ATSC 3.0.

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post #12946 of 13103 Old 10-06-2019, 04:58 PM
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You're right. A lot of television stations never got it right. For the ones who do, a gift card or even a thank-you card means a lot to these guys. And girls.
That's a good idea, will follow upon that at some point. I think the Detroit stations all do a great job getting a quality signal out.

Out of curiosity what Detroit radios stations do a quality HD broadcast? I was running miles of wires for my Atmos system so ran a new RG6 line and hooked my AVR up to an old unused FM antenna in my attic, but none of the many Detroit stations came in in HD, signal might be too weak.
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post #12947 of 13103 Old 10-06-2019, 05:09 PM
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That's a good idea, will follow upon that at some point. I think the Detroit stations all do a great job getting a quality signal out.
You're welcome.



I conservatively estimate calling or emailing the Detroit DTV stations up to 100 times a year for the first 10 years after they went HD. No kidding.
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post #12948 of 13103 Old 10-06-2019, 05:11 PM
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Speaking of advertising, I think we all know a consortium of Detroit stations plans to launch an ATSC 3.0 broadcast in the future. If I know them, it's not about bringing you 4k broadcasts as 4k won't move the ratings needle. It's about getting live local stations in automobile seatback systems. THAT they can sell.

/rant
Finally, something to watch while I'm driving.......
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post #12949 of 13103 Old 10-06-2019, 05:19 PM
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To your point, it would help if PQ mattered to the general public, but it doesn't. These are the same people who think mp3s and streaming music sounds just fine. They'll listen to FM and be happy with it when, for a little more, an HD Radio will bring them superb sound. Look at cell phones. Crappier call audio quality than a wired phone from 40 years ago. But who cares so long as you can text people and check social media accounts?
I hate to admit it, but you're right.

Quote:
About encoders..... I have to say, Sunday Night Football on bandwidth-packed WFLA looks better than what WDIV had with NO diginets in 2005.
Yes, but that has more to do with how NBC upgraded their HD distribution system than anything else.

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post #12950 of 13103 Old 10-07-2019, 06:35 AM
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I conservatively estimate calling or emailing the Detroit DTV stations up to 100 times a year for the first 10 years after they went HD. No kidding.
I had all of the master control hotline numbers for stations in Cincinnati AND Detroit. I remember hauling my Samsung tuner down to 4 to help with PSIP issues (Those Sammys were finicky). Some of the engineers and GMs from back then were and still are good friends. A few master control techs and program directors probably never want to hear my name, again, but...

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post #12951 of 13103 Old 10-08-2019, 07:55 AM
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Out of curiosity what Detroit radios stations do a quality HD broadcast? I was running miles of wires for my Atmos system so ran a new RG6 line and hooked my AVR up to an old unused FM antenna in my attic, but none of the many Detroit stations came in in HD, signal might be too weak.
Pretty much all of them. Like the upcoming ATSC 3.0 "experiment," Detroit stations were on a mission to get HD Radio included in cars, so engineers made sure it was the best it could be. I think the Entercom and Beasley clusters probably pay more attention to detail. I'm good friends with the engineers in both plants and I know their dedication, firsthand. If I had to pick favorites, it'd be WDZH 98.7 HD-2, which is commercial-free smooth jazz, still using the V-98.7 jingle package from way back. WXYT-HD2 carries WWJ, though WWJ, itself, runs HD on AM. Or did last time I was in town.

Yeah, the OBOC digital signal doesn't reach as far as the analog. I'd lose a lock on digital for WYCD at about Fowlerville. WCSX would stay a little longer, but would start transitioning back to analog around the same spot.

Here in Tampa, I don't have adjacent channel interference as my back's against the Gulf. There's a Lakeland station that's marginal on analog but the digital locks in well, which is kinda backwards. Don't have quite the variety of subchannels as Detroit does. Lots of Hispanic and Christian programming. Ditto television subchannels. Hispanic, shopping and Christian. NNTAWWT.

PS: Might move this to the HD Radio section as it's a bit off-topic, here. Depends on how lazy I am, today.

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post #12952 of 13103 Old 10-15-2019, 07:51 PM
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The fact of the matter is that HD image quality is not what is used to be, and most likely will never be again.
Funny you said that as was looking at some really old TS caps last night and thinking the same thing ... Heck, I also have some old stuff that even looks pretty good after I re-encoded it with AVC ....

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Some of the engineers and GMs from back then were and still are good friends ..
I didn't know any of them were still around here(well, except for Elliot) until I saw the CE's name from one of the Dayton stations on a repack related FCC filing today ....

Anyway, FWIW, believe it or not WLWT is still running only 1 SD sub ... Just fired up TSreader, right now their NBC HD running 13-15Mb/s, SD as much as 5Mb/s(MeTV), about 232kb/s null packet ... They're the only one anywhere around here still doing anything like that and it shows .....

Jeff

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post #12953 of 13103 Old 10-19-2019, 07:25 AM
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...Look at cell phones. Crappier call audio quality than a wired phone from 40 years ago...
Newer cell phones that support voice over LTE aka "HD Voice" have much better audio quality when connected to another phone with it than any landline phone ever did.
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post #12954 of 13103 Old 11-16-2019, 08:02 PM
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Cico-dt32

It's time to rescan again. CICO-DT32 is back up on RF19 with a lovely 1080i pixmission. 17.6Mbps video.
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post #12955 of 13103 Old 11-16-2019, 08:43 PM
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It's time to rescan again. CICO-DT32 is back up on RF19 with a lovely 1080i pixmission. 17.6Mbps video.
In a no-doubt related move WUDL-LD has appeared on RF35. No HD channels there to speak of, though.
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post #12956 of 13103 Old 12-01-2019, 04:56 AM
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So WUDL-LD is now entirely off RF19? So if I'm still not getting CICO-DT32 on RF19 interference isn't be the cause?

EDIT: As dumb luck would have it I did another scan this morning and most of my equipment is now getting TVO although the signal is fairly weak. I thought there would be duplicate 19.1s but instead the WUDL 19.1 seems to be replaced with the TVO.

Last edited by nmantas; 12-01-2019 at 06:25 AM.
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post #12957 of 13103 Old 12-06-2019, 11:16 AM
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Decades TV in now on WJBK 2.5.
Still not on Comcast. Any info if they are waiting until January? Or what the hold up may be?
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post #12958 of 13103 Old 12-06-2019, 12:10 PM
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Here is my man cave. Most of my viewing is from the SD channels... MeTV, Grit, H&I, Antenna TV, Cozi and now Decades. OH, and I can't forget the new GET TV, Life doesn't getting any better than this.......... All this from my OTA antenna.

Dual monitors, so I can watch TV and play computer games...........
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post #12959 of 13103 Old 12-06-2019, 12:27 PM
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Here is my man cave. Most of my viewing is from the SD channels... MeTV, Grit, H&I, Antenna TV, Cozi and now Decades. OH, and I can't forget the new GET TV, Life doesn't getting any better than this.......... All this from my OTA antenna.

Dual monitors, so I can watch TV and play computer games...........
Im not sure i could be any sadder after seeing that set-up
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post #12960 of 13103 Old 12-14-2019, 08:21 AM
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I love the programming of WHNE-RTV (14.7) Retro, but the quality is sooo poor...... The data rate fluctuates right around 1.35 Mbps.

Fortunately, GetTV is a little better, it fluctuates around 1.9 Mbps.

Should I complain to the engineers of that station??
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