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post #1201 of 1276 Old 05-23-2017, 10:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by magnus33 View Post
...The new york ones come in at 60%-70% which at times can be a issues depending on the weather.

Can i put a preamp on the new york antenna to boost the signal strength or is that going to be a issue?

Or is getting a better antenna for new york a better option?
Ignoring cost, a better antenna is always the first choice. By definition, a better antenna will give you more signal and less noise. A preamp boosts both the signal and noise; hopefully giving your tuner enough to work with. But you haven't said what 8-bay you have.

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post #1202 of 1276 Old 05-23-2017, 12:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pvr4Craig View Post
Ignoring cost, a better antenna is always the first choice. By definition, a better antenna will give you more signal and less noise. A preamp boosts both the signal and noise; hopefully giving your tuner enough to work with. But you haven't said what 8-bay you have.

Craig
Electronic Master ANT-7293 8 Bay Outdoor Antenna



  • 360 degree adjustable directional antenna
  • Strong performance across (channels 2-69) best for UHF spectrum (21-69);
  • Versatile high gain multi - bay antenna
  • Efficient design allows tremendous gain in a compact size
  • Designed to resist extreme wind loading
  • Works great in attics
  • Fits easily & high gain can help overcome loss from roofing materials.
  • All weather Balun included
  • Great within 70 miles or more from transmitters
  • Intended for people at great distances from the transmitters
  • Excellent reception for digital terrestrial
  • Suitable for HDTV of various television standards, such as American ATSC, European DVB, etc.
  • Super strong design suitable for all kind the weather
What was quite nearby when i needed to get another one


Not great but functional
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post #1203 of 1276 Old 05-23-2017, 12:49 PM
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That model is also sold as Stellar Labs thru MCM;
http://www.mcmelectronics.com/produc...-2430-/30-2430

There is nothing "stellar" about it. It's another version of what that Antennas Direct sells and the performance is poor due to using a separate 'match box' for each of the two 4 bay antennas vs using a wiring harness that Channle master uses and used on their 8-bay models (present and past).
I had the opportunity to use it, the performance was better or at least the same with a single 4 bay that what it was with this duo design. As far as being able to aim each portion separately, it mostly a marketing ploy. Thou it may be a benefit in some situations, I would avoid it. The ones I had I sent back (I bought two).

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post #1204 of 1276 Old 05-23-2017, 04:26 PM
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Hey @videobruce I'm looking at the Antennas Direct DB8e. Would you say a channel master antenna would be a better choice overall? In my location (outlined above) I have 2 pretty distinct groups of towers about 80 - 90 degrees apart, so I thought the bi-directional model would give me the best results.

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post #1205 of 1276 Old 05-24-2017, 04:16 AM
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AFAIC all of their antennas are overpriced & overrated. Especially their newest with those 'discs'. More marketing than anything else.
I would go with the misnumbered 4228HD, the Chinese clone of the original 4228. How is the signal between the two gropus of towers? If one is noticeable stronger, get a separate 4 bay version for the 2nd antenna.

A scaled down example are in the attachments.
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post #1206 of 1276 Old 05-24-2017, 07:23 AM
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Thanks @videobruce ...

In your images, is that a 4221 on top of a smaller antenna (pointed in a different direction)? In my setup the CN Tower location should be very strong (about 15 miles away). The towers located in Buffalo would be basically directly across the lake, and range from about 50 to 80 miles away. The spread between the tower clusters is about 80 degrees.

The DB8e seemed like the perfect all-in-one solution for my situation, and I had hoped it would work out well without a lot of tinkering and fiddling. I've read that co-locating and combining antennas both create additional complications that need to be addressed, and I don't have the technical skills or tools to optimize performance for something like that. In your opinion, would a 4228 pointed at the Buffalo towers mixed with a smaller antenna pointed at the CN Tower provide significantly better signal than 1/2 of a DB8e pointed at each site? Would there be more issues with signal interference and backwaves... figuring out channel-specific spacing between antennas... etc. with my own "dual direction" setup? Would I lose too much signal combining the two?


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post #1207 of 1276 Old 05-24-2017, 07:40 AM
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Another general question... i see things like "Good for High VHF 7 -13 as well as UHF Band 14 - 69" mentioned (this was in the description for the 4228), does that mean the sub-14 channel numbers I'm receiving now are VHF?

5-1 CBLT-DT
9-1 CFTO
11-1 CHCH-DT

And in that case will I need a dedicated VHF antenna to receive them with something like the DB8e that claims "High gain across entire UHF band (UHF channels 14-51)" or will any decent antenna still be able to pick up strong local VHF signals? @ADTech previously mentioned a VHF unit would be a good idea for the Toronto tower, which does add another complication to my setup... but at the end of the day if it will get me the best possible reception, I think it would be worth a little pain and suffering.

Edit: And what about the antennas like the Winegard HD 7698P pictured below? Are they any better than something like the CM/AD models I've been considering? I don't care what kind of antenna I put up, I'm not concerned with the look or size, really, just the performance.




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post #1208 of 1276 Old 05-24-2017, 09:45 AM
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Have you tried just one antenna (anything) pointed SE towards the Boston Hills (Gilligan's Island should never be a problem)??
Judging by your post, you are around 15 miles east of Toronto?

That DB8 and that other version from MCM Electronics (among others) pointing the two half in different direction is essentially the same as two separate antennas. You are still receive signals from different directions and you will have to deal with reflections etc. As far as how bad, there really isn't any real way to know until you try. (I'm not a fan of computer models).

Those three stations you mentioned. CBLT is RF ch 20, CFTO is RF ch 9 (that should be a problem) and CHCH is RF ch 15 BUT, there is a low powered station on Gilligan's Island on the same frequency, but it should really bother you.

BTW, the 34 bay I show in that photo is aimed towards Toronto and the 2 bay aimed towards the Boston Hills which unbelievable picks up WPXJ SE of Batavia & WBBZ outside of Springville.

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post #1209 of 1276 Old 05-24-2017, 09:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OJ Bartley View Post
Another general question... i see things like "Good for High VHF 7 -13 as well as UHF Band 14 - 69" mentioned (this was in the description for the 4228), does that mean the sub-14 channel numbers I'm receiving now are VHF?

5-1 CBLT-DT
9-1 CFTO
11-1 CHCH-DT
CFTO is the only one on VHF (they use RF9). All the other Toronto stations are UHF
http://rabbitears.info/market.php?re...&callsign=cfto

Almost all the Buffalo stations are UHF (WBBZ uses RF7 but they are south of Buffalo)

Most of the UHF only units will get SOME VHF signals but you need to be pretty close to the towers (within say 15-20 miles tops)

Quote:
And in that case will I need a dedicated VHF antenna to receive them with something like the DB8e that claims "High gain across entire UHF band (UHF channels 14-51)" or will any decent antenna still be able to pick up strong local VHF signals? @ADTech previously mentioned a VHF unit would be a good idea for the Toronto tower, which does add another complication to my setup... but at the end of the day if it will get me the best possible reception, I think it would be worth a little pain and suffering.
If you went with separte VHF/UHF antennas all you need is a combiner to do it. Here is a basic VHF antenna and they also have the combiner (I have purchased from them before)
http://www.mcmelectronics.com/produc...-2475-/30-2475


Quote:
[I]Edit: And what about the antennas like the Winegard HD 7698P pictured below? Are they any better than something like the CM/AD models I've been considering? I don't care what kind of antenna I put up, I'm not concerned with the look or size, really, just the performance.
You could go with a single antenna but then you wouldnt have the flexibility of aiming it at 2 separate spots.
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post #1210 of 1276 Old 05-24-2017, 10:04 AM
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You may also consider a rotor for one of the antennas to 'fine tune' it down the road if you are having problems with certain stations for whatever reason.
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post #1211 of 1276 Old 05-24-2017, 10:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unclehonkey View Post
CFTO is the only one on VHF (they use RF9). All the other Toronto stations are UHF...
Almost all the Buffalo stations are UHF...
Most of the UHF only units will get SOME VHF signals but you need to be pretty close to the towers (within say 15-20 miles tops)
Great, thanks for that, unclehonkey. I think I'll be OK without a dedicated VHF antenna based on that information.

Quote:
Originally Posted by videobruce View Post
Have you tried just one antenna (anything) pointed SE towards the Boston Hills (Gilligan's Island should never be a problem)??
Judging by your post, you are around 15 miles east of Toronto?
That's right, we're on the east edge of Toronto, about 15 miles from the tower. I have a little tabletop model now, looks like a "no name" version of the Channel Master 4040 below:

This little guy is what I'm using at the moment, and I was impressed with what it was able to pull in. However, there are some stations (most notably WNED 17-1, 17-2, and 17-3) that prefer a direct angle almost all of the time. I've tried pointing it somewhere in the middle, but those three, and a few other channels seem quite picky. That's why I thought I could do better with a permanently split dual direction setup.

Quote:
Originally Posted by videobruce
That DB8 and that other version from MCM Electronics (among others) pointing the two half in different direction is essentially the same as two separate antennas. You are still receive signals from different directions and you will have to deal with reflections etc. As far as how bad, there really isn't any real way to know until you try. (I'm not a fan of computer models).

Those three stations you mentioned. CBLT is RF ch 20, CFTO is RF ch 9 (that should be a problem) and CHCH is RF ch 15 BUT, there is a low powered station on Gilligan's Island on the same frequency, but it should really bother you.
So if the setup issues are present regardless, I guess my primary options are:

1) Antennas Direct DB8e mounted split between my main tower locations. Everything integrated in one package. $180.00 (antenna with integrated combiner only). The DB8e claims a range of 70+ miles, but I assume that is with both bays pointed in the same direction.

2) Channel Master 4228HD ($130.00) pointed at the Buffalo towers to maximize my efforts (and cost) on the farther towers, with something like a Channel Master 4220HD ($40.00) pointed at the CN Tower. The 4228 claims 60 miles "optimized for "fringe" and "Deep Fringe" reception", and the 4220 claims 30 miles.

Cost of the antennas is about a wash, but I assume the installation would be more expensive with option 2, and I would still need a good combiner. I'm not sure if option 2 would work on the same pole, like in the pic you posted above, but I would assume it's possible. What's a good model to look at? Cost?


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post #1212 of 1276 Old 05-24-2017, 11:48 AM
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Don't pay attention to mileage claims.
That 2 bay antenna in the 1st pic I would bet would work more than fine. Here it's around $15. Shipping kinda kills the 4228 due to bring oversized. That other one I believe is shipped dissembled.
A "combiner" basically nothing more than a 'splitter' wired backwards.

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post #1213 of 1276 Old 05-25-2017, 09:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by videobruce View Post
Don't pay attention to mileage claims.
That 2 bay antenna in the 1st pic I would bet would work more than fine. Here it's around $15. Shipping kinda kills the 4228 due to bring oversized. That other one I believe is shipped dissembled.
A "combiner" basically nothing more than a 'splitter' wired backwards.
Thanks for all the extra info. I think when we're ready to get this set up I'll discuss something like my Option 2 above with the installer and see what they say. If its just as easy/same cost/etc, it seems like the better way to go.


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post #1214 of 1276 Old 05-26-2017, 08:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OJ Bartley View Post
Thanks for all the extra info. I think when we're ready to get this set up I'll discuss something like my Option 2 above with the installer and see what they say. If its just as easy/same cost/etc, it seems like the better way to go.
Re one vrs two antennas, I'm on the border between Oakville and Mississauga so I have about a 90 degree angle between the Buffalo and Toronto clusters. I use an old original CM 4228. The thing is, antennas aren't as exclusionary as you might think. The reception pattern for mine is:



My antenna is pointed in between the two groups and I had to tweak the aiming a couple of times. I get very good reception but not perfect. For example, during heavy rain last night, MyTV (49.x) would drop out from time to time. Heavy snow or dense fog can have the same effect. It has not been enough of a problem for me to bother buying and installing another antenna.

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post #1215 of 1276 Old 05-26-2017, 09:23 AM
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That's a great point @Pvr4Craig and one I hadn't thought about. It's quite possible that the antenna's "side reception" area could pick up Toronto well if it was aimed at Buffalo. It might be worth trying that out first... But then again I might be better off just putting everything in when the installer is there instead of having to monkey with it later. Decisions, decisions!

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post #1216 of 1276 Old 05-26-2017, 09:24 AM
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That chart is the original 4228, not this current Chinese knock off.

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post #1217 of 1276 Old 08-22-2017, 07:38 AM
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hi guys, I haven't had cable in about 10 years. are there any companies in particular i should take a look at? i like having access to lots of channels, doesnt matter if i wont use all of them a lot or equally, i just like having them. i live in the gta.
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post #1218 of 1276 Old 05-21-2018, 01:48 PM
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Toronto: need to pick up Buffalo stations.

Hello,

I had a ClearStream 2MAX for several years now, used indoors and have been pondering on getting a DB8e 8-Element Bowtie from AntennasDirect. As I'd like to reach this Buffalo from Toronto. I am going to be mounting it on the roof so my dilemma comes from if it's wise to invest in another antenna to reach those specific channels?

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...9038b3d408dfde
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post #1219 of 1276 Old 05-21-2018, 04:47 PM
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The website you used is useless for predicting reception. Use TVFool or rabbitears.info instead.
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post #1220 of 1276 Old 05-21-2018, 06:36 PM
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Hello, Scotty45; welcome to the forum.

The strong local signals from the CN tower might make it difficult to receive Buffalo channels, but we can't tell unless we have more information about your location.

Please follow the rules in the sticky:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/25-hdt...-1st-post.html

You can do a TVFool signal report here:
http://www.tvfool.com/index.php?opti...pper&Itemid=29

but you will not be able to post an active link to your report until you have more than 5 posts, so just give us the short form like this:

?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3de6a46686a80de c

don't let it bother you if there is a space between the last two characters
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post #1221 of 1276 Old 05-22-2018, 01:48 PM
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I'm not able to edit my post/title, to add my location. My location is Toronto, to make it clear for everyone.

My TV Fool link: ?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d9038b3d408dfd e
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post #1222 of 1276 Old 05-22-2018, 02:20 PM
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post #1223 of 1276 Old 05-22-2018, 06:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scotty45 View Post
I'm not able to edit my post/title, to add my location. My location is Toronto, to make it clear for everyone.

My TV Fool link: ?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d9038b3d408dfd e
Thank you for the short link to your report and to ctdish for the active link. That report puts your location in High Park, 3.7 miles WNW of the CN Tower. The report states that it isn't accurate as far as location is concerned. With the CN Tower so close, small changes in your location can make a big difference. At least the tower isn't in the same direction as Buffalo.

It will be difficult, but probably not impossible, to receive the Buffalo channels. If you aim your DB8e at Buffalo, it might make the local channels weak enough so that they will not cause overload. You will probably not be able to use a preamp to make the Buffalo signals stronger; it would most likely be overloaded.

The difference in azimuth is at least 46 degrees between the local channels and the Buffalo channels.

Looking at the DB8e antenna pattern, the local channels would only be about 7 dB weaker than the Buffalo channels because there is a secondary lobe at 45 degrees off aim. With the 91XG or the HDB91X, the local channels would be about 14 dB weaker.
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post #1224 of 1276 Old 05-23-2018, 06:48 AM
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Threads merged.

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post #1225 of 1276 Old 05-23-2018, 12:06 PM
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Scotty45

I hope you will find your way back here to where your thread was moved. Some new posters lose track of their thread when it is moved.

I suggest you contact cgtoronto on the digitalhome.ca forum. He is even closer to the CN Tower than you are, and has found a way to receive the Buffalo channels and the Toronto channels.

This is a recent post by him:
http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/129-...ml#post3050890

This is his TVFool report:
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...9038a01384b5fc

This map shows his location:



This shows how close he is to the CN Tower:

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Last edited by rabbit73; 05-23-2018 at 12:55 PM.
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post #1226 of 1276 Old 05-23-2018, 01:17 PM
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Originally Posted by rabbit73 View Post
Thank you for the short link to your report and to ctdish for the active link. That report puts your location in High Park, 3.7 miles WNW of the CN Tower. The report states that it isn't accurate as far as location is concerned. With the CN Tower so close, small changes in your location can make a big difference. At least the tower isn't in the same direction as Buffalo.

It will be difficult, but probably not impossible, to receive the Buffalo channels. If you aim your DB8e at Buffalo, it might make the local channels weak enough so that they will not cause overload. You will probably not be able to use a preamp to make the Buffalo signals stronger; it would most likely be overloaded.

The difference in azimuth is at least 46 degrees between the local channels and the Buffalo channels.

Looking at the DB8e antenna pattern, the local channels would only be about 7 dB weaker than the Buffalo channels because there is a secondary lobe at 45 degrees off aim. With the 91XG or the HDB91X, the local channels would be about 14 dB weaker.
I don't have the DB8e antenna only the Clearstream 2MAX, which is used indoors. I'm going to be making an attempt to install it on my roof but thought of maybe possibly giving the DB8e (or the HDB91X) a try as I'd like to get more channels from Buffalo as it will be a venture to stick it on the roof. I want to be clear that I do get channels from CNTower/Buffalo, which I'll list below, for an indoor antenna it's not bad.

Virtual Channel ID
4-1
4-2
5-1
9-1
11-1
19-1
23-1
23-2
25-1
29-1
29-2
29-3
36-1
40-1
41-1
47-1
57-1

The channels: 4-1, 4-2 and 11-1 have signal loss, but that's understandable because the antenna is indoors. From my initial post the image I had shown channels I could obtain if having taken other measures [which was my initial thought to have a somewhat 70+ mile range antenna with a gain of 17.4 dBi, instead of the 60+ range and a gain of UHF 8.7 dBi / VHF 2.6 dBi.) These networks listed below, which are in the grey column says its 60 miles away from me, shouldn't it be able to pick it up with a stronger gain than 8.7 dBi (my current antenna?)

Channel networks I hope to get:

(WBXZ-LP): ?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d9038b3d408dfd e%26t%3dALLTV%26n%3d31

(WBNF-CD): ?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d9038b3d408dfd e%26t%3dALLTV%26n%3d42
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post #1227 of 1276 Old 05-23-2018, 04:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Scotty45 View Post
The channels: 4-1, 4-2 and 11-1 have signal loss, but that's understandable because the antenna is indoors.
WIVB CBS, real channel 39, virtual channel 4.1, has adjacent channel interference from CJMT on real channel 40, as indicated by the red "a" next to its callsign in your report. CJMT is 38.9 dB stronger than WIVB. A tuner is not expected to reject adjacent channel interference any greater than 33 dB.

WIVB will be moving to channel 32:
https://www.rabbitears.info/market.p...&callsign=WIVB

Quote:
From my initial post the image I had shown channels I could obtain if having taken other measures [which was my initial thought to have a somewhat 70+ mile range antenna with a gain of 17.4 dBi, instead of the 60+ range and a gain of UHF 8.7 dBi / VHF 2.6 dBi.) These networks listed below, which are in the grey column says its 60 miles away from me, shouldn't it be able to pick it up with a stronger gain than 8.7 dBi (my current antenna?)
Antenna mileage figures aren't very useful. What good is a "60" mile antenna if there is a hill 5 miles away in the signal path? What counts is the strength of the signal at your antenna.

Quote:
Channel networks I hope to get:

(WBXZ-LP): ?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d9038b3d408dfd e%26t%3dALLTV%26n%3d31

(WBNF-CD): ?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d9038b3d408dfd e%26t%3dALLTV%26n%3d42
Not much chance for them except during Tropospheric propagation.
WBXZ
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...ALLTV%26n%3d31

The white space near the ground at the right end of the path where your antenna is located indicates a no-signal dead zone. Only 0.152 kW out of 15.000 kW reaches your antenna, that is 152 Watts out of 15,000 Watts ERP.

WBNF
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...ALLTV%26n%3d42

Only 0.001 kW out of 15.000 kW is sent your way, that is 1 Watt out of 15,000 Watts.

If you can not measure it, you can not improve it.
Lord Kelvin, 1883
www.megalithia.com/elect/aerialsite/dttpoorman.html

Last edited by rabbit73; 05-23-2018 at 05:07 PM.
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post #1228 of 1276 Old 05-23-2018, 10:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Scotty45 View Post
I'm not able to edit my post/title, to add my location. My location is Toronto, to make it clear for everyone.
My TV Fool link: ?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d9038b3d408dfd e
Just stating your location is Toronto doesn't narrow it down enough.
The actual city of Toronto, or one of the dozen (or so) suburbs, or some distance from same. That location is too general.

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Originally Posted by rabbit73 View Post
That move already happened three weeks ago!
Those few US stations you list are all from (what I call) Gilligan's Island which is NW of the city of Buffalo.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scotty45 View Post
Channel networks I hope to get:
WBXZ-LP
WBNF-CD
Those are very low powered stations, surely not worth any trouble! WBXZ has the absolutely WORST PQ of any in the WNY market and that other is just a unnecessary duplication of a religious station from the Southtowns that is on the same physical channel as CHCH in Hamilton thanks to both of our governments communications commissions.

Lastly, the overload from both buildings a few miles away from you would make any further reception from the southeast next to impossible, especially with any DA (distribution amp), let alone a preamp even with custom filters (that would be expensive).
Take if from someone that has to deal with those three RF channels that you are able to pick up where you are. They are 7 miles away from me and in-line with Toronto.

The only ones you should try to receive are the other two major US network affiliates; WGRZ-NBC (RF channel 33) and WKBW-ABC (RF channel 38) both around 20 miles SE of the city of Buffalo in the Boston Hills (which is a ideal location due to height in spite of the additional distance).

.
.
Recording free OTA TV for 'time shifting' has been here since 1975. Will there be DVR's to do the same when ATSC3 obsoletes existing DVR's??

Last edited by videobruce; 05-23-2018 at 10:34 PM.
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post #1229 of 1276 Old 05-24-2018, 07:52 AM
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Originally Posted by videobruce View Post
Just stating your location is Toronto doesn't narrow it down enough.
The actual city of Toronto, or one of the dozen (or so) suburbs, or some distance from same. That location is too general.
That is true; we told Scotty45 earlier that an accurate location is necessary because he is so close to the CN Tower, but he seemed unwilling (or unable) to give a more accurate report. His TVFool report indicates poor location accuracy. It does give a postal code M6R 2Z3, which is mostly a park with a Tennis Club, but no obvious houses.
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...9038b3d408dfde






Quote:
That move already happened three weeks ago!
Thank you. I know where to find the new channel, but I don't know how to find the date of the change.

Quote:
Those are very low powered stations, surely not worth any trouble!
I agree.

Quote:
The only ones you should try to receive are the other two major US network affiliates; WGRZ-NBC (RF channel 33) and WKBW-ABC (RF channel 38) both around 20 miles SE of the city of Buffalo in the Boston Hills (which is a ideal location due to height in spite of the additional distance).
His TVFool report doesn't list ABC because of a defective database used to generate reports, but it is listed on a rabbitears.info report.


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If you can not measure it, you can not improve it.
Lord Kelvin, 1883
www.megalithia.com/elect/aerialsite/dttpoorman.html

Last edited by rabbit73; 05-24-2018 at 08:46 AM.
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post #1230 of 1276 Old 05-24-2018, 05:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scotty45 View Post
Channel networks I hope to get:

(WBXZ-LP):
(WBNF-CD):
Neither one can make it to Toronto.

Both are running 15 kW, and WBNF is LOS and closer. But, WBNF is weaker because of its very directional transmitting antenna array.



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If you can not measure it, you can not improve it.
Lord Kelvin, 1883
www.megalithia.com/elect/aerialsite/dttpoorman.html

Last edited by rabbit73; 05-24-2018 at 05:31 PM.
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