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post #2941 of 11945 Old 02-06-2011, 10:03 AM
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Originally Posted by ybsane View Post

Funny it does not look like the Weather Radar is on 18.3 , wonder what channel they are showing..?

Rob

"just the mandated E/I" that airs daily at 12noon. Our fedurul gubbermint is now saying kids are too fat, don;t eat right and need to exercise more.. yet we're legally required to provide them more mindless Tv to watch...

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post #2942 of 11945 Old 02-06-2011, 10:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ybsane View Post

.. WTVI has less power output than WTVI.....

Rob

Assume you meant that WTVI has less power than WUNG. This is true however.....

WTVI is a VHF station transmitting on channel 11. WUNG is a UHF station transmitting on 44. The longer wavelength means WTVI is less affected by obstructions, atmospheric conditions, and can penetrate buildings. Hence VHF stations can operate at a lower power. In most cases in Charlotte, a simple dipole cut to 28 inches can pick up WTVI station. You could do this with a piece of speaker wire taped in your attic. On the other hand, UHF might not penetrate the attic at all.

WTVI is the only station in the Charlotte area still transmitting in the VHF band. The rest moved to UHF when the conversion to digital occurred. Interestingly WUNG dropped from UHF 58 to UHF 44 which would be preferable in terms of signal propagation. Lower frequencies are always better. However, even with this drop, I think they should be putting our more power than they do. It's a difficult station to pick up even in parts of Mecklenburg.
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post #2943 of 11945 Old 02-06-2011, 10:45 AM
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Originally Posted by blackcat6 View Post

The longer wavelength means WTVI [...] can penetrate buildings.

While your point about VHF vs UHF power is largely correct, I and many others would strongly disagree with you here. Building penetration is a huge problem for VHF stations, and has led to many of them seeking enormous power increases or even moves to UHF, where applicable.

http://www.rabbitears.info/vhf.php

And in WTVI's case, even when you account for the differences between VHF and UHF propagation, their power level is significantly lower than WUNG. The coverage contour encloses 10,206 sq miles for WUNG versus 9,099 sq miles for WTVI. In addition, all other things being equal and interference not being a factor, while a UHF station at WUNG's height could operate at 765 kW (6.8 dB greater than the 160 kW they have now), a VHF station at WTVI's height could be at 111 kW (16.3 dB greater than the 2.57 kW they have now). I suspect the presence of WTVD and possibly WJHL presents a major obstacle to any increases at all for WTVI, however.

I'm also reasonably certain that WUNG is restrained from increasing power due to WLXI-43 in Greensboro.

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post #2944 of 11945 Old 02-06-2011, 10:46 AM
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Originally Posted by blackcat6 View Post

UHF might not penetrate the attic at all.

Don't tell that to the little Winegard FV-HD30 antenna in my attic. It has been a solid performer, even with 4" of snow on the roof last month.
http://www.amazon.com/Winegard-FV-HD...7017462&sr=1-8

Totally passive, split to two TV's, with signal strength of max 10 bars on all locals except two that are 8 bars (still perfect reception). I'm in Union County and the distances to the towers range from 15 to 37 miles.

I had expected that a pre-amp or distribution amp would be needed, but found that none was needed.
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post #2945 of 11945 Old 02-06-2011, 11:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trip in VA View Post

While your point about VHF vs UHF power is largely correct, I and many others would strongly disagree with you here. Building penetration is a huge problem for VHF stations, and has led to many of them seeking enormous power increases or even moves to UHF, where applicable.....
- Trip

I didn't say it wasn't a problem, but rather less of a problem than UHF. This is why I said lower frequencies were preferable for broadcast TV. The downside of lower frequencies for VHF is the antennas required to pick them up properly have to be larger as the wavelength increases.

On the comparison of WTVI vs WUNG power it should be noted that WTVI is now transmitting from two towers (the other in Hickory) which would make it's reception easier in the part of the county that we are talking about. WTVI is also a station that also would not come in well with the antenna shown above, but a 28 inch dipole pointed in the general direction shouldn't have any issues.

Where I live at Lake Norman, WUNG is a challenge to pick up for the reasons that I gave, though its tower isn't that far away. WTVI is much easier.
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post #2946 of 11945 Old 02-06-2011, 11:34 AM
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Originally Posted by ybsane View Post

WTVI has less power output than WTVI. Rob

Dude... you really need to go get your SCTE certification...

Bob

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post #2947 of 11945 Old 02-06-2011, 12:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blackcat6 View Post

I didn't say it wasn't a problem, but rather less of a problem than UHF. This is why I said lower frequencies were preferable for broadcast TV. The downside of lower frequencies for VHF is the antennas required to pick them up properly have to be larger as the wavelength increases.

On the comparison of WTVI vs WUNG power it should be noted that WTVI is now transmitting from two towers (the other in Hickory) which would make it's reception easier in the part of the county that we are talking about. WTVI is also a station that also would not come in well with the antenna shown above, but a 28 inch dipole pointed in the general direction shouldn't have any issues.

Where I live at Lake Norman, WUNG is a challenge to pick up for the reasons that I gave, though its tower isn't that far away. WTVI is much easier.

It should not be.? I have a friend from work who lives in Sherrils Ford and we set up his antenna in the fall and had good results with his simple set-up. Plus I ran some test last year and drove around the 485 belt to see what OTA channels would interfere with TWC QAM's in that area. I had no problem at all way down in shopton by the 49 bridge picking up WUNG with a simple dipole antenna

"Originally Posted by ybsane
WTVI has less power output than WTVI. Rob

Dude... you really need to go get your SCTE certification... "

Yeah I know, meant to say WUNG, probably need to proof read better...

Rob

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post #2948 of 11945 Old 02-06-2011, 01:20 PM
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Originally Posted by blackcat6 View Post

I didn't say it wasn't a problem, but rather less of a problem than UHF.

While the theory may suggest that, the evidence in the real world does not support it. I recently did some signal comparison testing with a television station local to me, and we compared three signals, a VHF-11 at 10 kW, a UHF-41 at 15 kW, and a UHF-51 at 0.5 kW peak (about 0.25 kW in the direction in question), all on the same mountain. Tests for the UHF signals were performed with a Silver Sensor (log periodic) and the VHF signal with a VHF loop at various locations within the coverage area.

The only time the VHF-11 outperformed the UHF-41 signal was a single time when the terrain blocked the UHF signals and the VHF bent around it somewhat. None of the signals decoded in that situation, however. The UHF-51 was consistently 6-12 dB weaker than the UHF-41, while the VHF-11 was consistently 3-10 dB weaker.

Quote:
Where I live at Lake Norman, WUNG is a challenge to pick up for the reasons that I gave, though its tower isn't that far away. WTVI is much easier.

How is WAXN-50 (64-1)?

- Trip

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post #2949 of 11945 Old 02-06-2011, 02:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blackcat6 View Post

WTVI is also a station that also would not come in well with the antenna shown above

Well, you're wrong yet again. The Winegard FV-HD30 is a Hi-VHF/UHF antenna and WTVI pegs my meter.

AJ
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post #2950 of 11945 Old 02-06-2011, 02:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trip in VA View Post
.....

How is WAXN-50 (64-1)?

- Trip
WAXN is a station that I never watch so I don't have any long term experience with it. However at the moment, with a different homemade antenna (than the one I mention above) it comes in fine. It's coming in slightly stronger than WUNG, which, is the weakest station that I can receive.

It is a calm quiet day today weather wise. So both WAXN and WUNG are locked. However if the wind were blowing as it was earlier in the week, the moving trees around makes it difficult to keep a lock on WUNG. Can't say about WAXN. I've never really noticed WTVI affected in the same manner and I assumed it was related to the lower frequency.

I don't doubt your test results at all, but I am not sure that your test would dispute what I posted.
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post #2951 of 11945 Old 02-06-2011, 02:20 PM
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Originally Posted by A J View Post
Well, you're wrong yet again. The Winegard FV-HD30 is a Hi-VHF/UHF antenna and WTVI pegs my meter.

AJ
Son, I haven't read any of your posts so I wasn't responding to your situation. I was referring to this antenna http://www.monoprice.com/products/pr...seq=1&format=2 being used to pick up a station that is 27 miles away. I wasn't referring to your Wineguard which should be fine from Indian Trail so your commentary is completely incorrect.

That wineguard is basically a very similar antenna to what I recommended to the person that I was responding to.
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post #2952 of 11945 Old 02-06-2011, 02:33 PM
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I live in Indian Land SC, just a few miles south of Balantyne, and have no trouble recieving any of the Charlotte stations with my silver sensor, except WTVI, which I've never snagged (yes, I know the ss is a UHF only ant.). The big 4, plus WNSC, are always 90-100% no matter how the ant. is oriented-I really believe I could recieve these 5 with a paper clip, though I am as much as 30 miles from the towers. WJZY and WMYT (about 30 miles out) are also good with no drop outs if I orient the ss to the NW. WAXN and WUNG are also fine with no drop outs, but orientation of the ant. to the NE is very critical---usually I recieve all 9 channels great with the ss tuned into WAXN/WUNG. No complaints about digital reception here....
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post #2953 of 11945 Old 02-06-2011, 02:47 PM
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I use this. http://www.antennasdirect.com/store/...V-antenna.html

I have no problem getting any station including WTVI all at 100%

I also on a good day get stations from spartanburg

I am in Matthews
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post #2954 of 11945 Old 02-06-2011, 02:49 PM
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I use this.
Only because You probably got a deal on it..

Bob

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post #2955 of 11945 Old 02-06-2011, 03:02 PM
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Originally Posted by blackcat6 View Post
WAXN is a station that I never watch so I don't have any long term experience with it. However at the moment, with a different homemade antenna (than the one I mention above) it comes in fine. It's coming in slightly stronger than WUNG, which, is the weakest station that I can receive.
WAXN is off a shorter tower at 50 kW instead of 160 kW and is only about half a mile closer to you.

Quote:
It is a calm quiet day today weather wise. So both WAXN and WUNG are locked. However if the wind were blowing as it was earlier in the week, the moving trees around makes it difficult to keep a lock on WUNG. Can't say about WAXN. I've never really noticed WTVI affected in the same manner and I assumed it was related to the lower frequency.
It's well-established that trees impact UHF reception more than VHF reception, particularly pines. People with indoor antennas, even antennas designed to work with VHF, tend to have significantly more issues with VHF than UHF.

Quote:
I don't doubt your test results at all, but I am not sure that your test would dispute what I posted.
We'll know for sure soon enough. My thesis project will be testing indoor VHF antennas. They'll be tested both outdoors and indoors. I'll probably do some looking at UHF signals at the same time, even though that won't be the focus of the project.

In my prospectus, I dug up a paper from 2007 which demonstrated that VHF signals had significantly more loss through walls than UHF, to the tune of 15-25 dB more. (Of course, not all walls are created the same way of the same materials.) I have a citation but I think they require a subscription or something to see it.

Turney, W. (2007). VHF/UHF building penetration characteristics when using low antenna heights. New Frontiers in Dynamic Spectrum Access Networks, 2007(89), Retrieved from http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/stamp/sta...number=4221551 doi: 10.1109/DYSPAN.2007.89

"The excess penetration loss tends to be inversely
proportional to frequency. This is characteristic of
propagation through an aperture that is small with
respect to a wavelength. Excess loss varied from
approximately 20dB (641 MHz) to 45dB (183 MHz)
for vertical polarization, and from approximately
11dB (641 MHz) to 35dB (183 MHz) for horizontal
polarization."

I'd post the document but I don't have sufficient copyright permission to do so legally.

- Trip

N4MJC

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post #2956 of 11945 Old 02-06-2011, 03:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trip in VA View Post
.....
It's well-established that trees impact UHF reception more than VHF reception, particularly pines. People with indoor antennas, even antennas designed to work with VHF, tend to have significantly more issues with VHF than UHF.....

- Trip
From your commentary, I would add that you can't really take any given antenna and say that because because you received a certain station at X and another station and 2X, that station 2X is twice as effective. Your test on the mountain and the commentary about VHF are not definitive because the antenna used will greatly affect what you are able to receive. This is because each frequency has an optimum antenna length needed to pick it up. Since most people will pick up more than one channel, then modern commercial antenna design is a set of compromises that favor some frequencies over the others.

In the pre-digital days, there really wasn't such a thing as a good indoor VHF antenna because in order to properly pick up something like channel 3 you need a antenna with a 7 ft set of elements on it. If you lived in Charlotte this isn't an issue as a cheap pair of rabbit ears will pick up an non optimal signal just fine. if you stuck a meter on it, it would appear to be a weaker signal than it really is.

When digital came, all the channels were moved to UHF with the few exceptions that some were on VHF high 7-13. Charlotte has one of these, WTVI. They also got rid of the very high UHF frequencies. The end result of this is that antennas are easier to build but there are a lot more issues with picking up the signal in a general case because of the shorter UHF wavelengths. I would argue however that if you were comparing reception power of various stations at a certain location, then you need to use a different antenna cut to each frequency or it isn't a fair test. An antenna cut to channel 44 will be a lot less efficient at channel 11.
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post #2957 of 11945 Old 02-06-2011, 03:47 PM
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Only because You probably got a deal on it..
Yeah where were you during the installation..? I know I was on the roof and E was watching the analyzer. Every time I go to his house he figures one way or another to have me up the ladder...

Rob

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post #2958 of 11945 Old 02-06-2011, 03:55 PM
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Yeah where were you during the installation..? I know I was on the roof and E was watching the analyzer. Every time I go to his house he figures one way or another to have me up the ladder...

Rob
Yea, but does he provide food?

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post #2959 of 11945 Old 02-06-2011, 04:05 PM
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Yea, but does he provide food?
Not food but drink, BTW nice feed OTA and via fiber looks good. Can't vouch for the OTA bit rate, but I am hitting 14Mbps on the fiber...

Rob

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post #2960 of 11945 Old 02-06-2011, 04:09 PM
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I am hitting 14Mbps on the fiber... Rob
OTA and fiber are the same bit rate.

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post #2961 of 11945 Old 02-06-2011, 07:22 PM
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Spectacular HD presentation of SB XLV on WCCB via Comporium Cable....at least I think it was on WCCB---not a single station ID during the entire game (FOXCLT.com doesn't count for FCC purposes).
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post #2962 of 11945 Old 02-06-2011, 07:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blackcat6 View Post

From your commentary, I would add that you can't really take any given antenna and say that because because you received a certain station at X and another station and 2X, that station 2X is twice as effective. Your test on the mountain and the commentary about VHF are not definitive because the antenna used will greatly affect what you are able to receive. This is because each frequency has an optimum antenna length needed to pick it up. Since most people will pick up more than one channel, then modern commercial antenna design is a set of compromises that favor some frequencies over the others.

In the pre-digital days, there really wasn't such a thing as a good indoor VHF antenna because in order to properly pick up something like channel 3 you need a antenna with a 7 ft set of elements on it. If you lived in Charlotte this isn't an issue as a cheap pair of rabbit ears will pick up an non optimal signal just fine. if you stuck a meter on it, it would appear to be a weaker signal than it really is.

When digital came, all the channels were moved to UHF with the few exceptions that some were on VHF high 7-13. Charlotte has one of these, WTVI. They also got rid of the very high UHF frequencies. The end result of this is that antennas are easier to build but there are a lot more issues with picking up the signal in a general case because of the shorter UHF wavelengths. I would argue however that if you were comparing reception power of various stations at a certain location, then you need to use a different antenna cut to each frequency or it isn't a fair test. An antenna cut to channel 44 will be a lot less efficient at channel 11.

It's more than signal strength too. Reflections can really mess things up. I have the Channel Master CM 3221 which is supposed to be a good antenna (basically 4 bow ties with a reflector) . Friday night the dropouts on WCCB messed up my recording of "Fringe". I have the antenna in a compromise position where I can receive all the locals and WCCB is strong where I live. Could the rain have caused the signal to degrade?

We can put up with a little fuzz in the picture but with digital it's either there or it's not.
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post #2963 of 11945 Old 02-07-2011, 01:22 AM
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Originally Posted by W4DXL View Post

It's more than signal strength too. Reflections can really mess things up. I have the Channel Master CM 3221 which is supposed to be a good antenna (basically 4 bow ties with a reflector) . Friday night the dropouts on WCCB messed up my recording of "Fringe". I have the antenna in a compromise position where I can receive all the locals and WCCB is strong where I live. Could the rain have caused the signal to degrade?

That is a very good antenna however the reflector on this antenna will make it directional to improve long distance reception. If you are only going after the stations in Charlotte, you might try removing that reflector to see if it improves things. Yeah, the physical tower locations of the Charlotte stations isn't optimal.
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post #2964 of 11945 Old 02-07-2011, 04:17 AM
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Originally Posted by W4DXL View Post

Could the rain have caused the signal to degrade?
.

It increases multipath. Ice makes it really bad.

Bob

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post #2965 of 11945 Old 02-07-2011, 10:30 AM
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Winds have shifted and today weather conditions are very favorable for fringe signals. All Clt channels coming in strong including 9.1 and 18.1 which I normally don't receive during daytime hours. 36, 46, and 3 top all strong. Gvl SC here.
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post #2966 of 11945 Old 02-07-2011, 10:39 AM
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Superbowl did look spectacular last night on 18.1 OTA HD. And late news on Fox Clt looked great as well, with appealing new anchors and polished presentation. Wish I could receive OTA more often.
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post #2967 of 11945 Old 02-07-2011, 03:02 PM
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Quote:


WAXN is off a shorter tower at 50 kW instead of 160 kW and is only about half a mile closer to you.

WAXN's ERP is 91KW. Has been since May of 2009. It will be 150KW by July 1st of this year.

Ted Hand, CPBE. 8VSB, DRB, AMD
Fellow - Society of Broadcast Engineers
I was there on July 23, 1996...First DTV broadcast in the US..WRAL-HD
Amateur Radio - W9SOC
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post #2968 of 11945 Old 02-07-2011, 04:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Theo1080 View Post

WAXN's ERP is 91KW. Has been since May of 2009. It will be 150KW by July 1st of this year.

Whoops! I knew that.

- Trip

N4MJC

Comments are my own and not that of the FCC (my employer) or anyone else.

RabbitEars

"Ignorance and prejudice and fear walk hand in hand..." - Rush "Witch Hunt"

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post #2969 of 11945 Old 02-07-2011, 07:09 PM
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Originally Posted by blackcat6 View Post

If you want to do a little experimenting and are a little handy, i recommend building one of these:
http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=124542 I constructed one of these and was surprised at how well it worked in Charlotte. I did modify it slightly with an additional element to pick up WTVI since it transmits on VHF, but you may not need to do this. In either case, it will give you an idea of what is possible before you sink some money into it.

Thanks blackcat. I will check this out. Actually had my TV upstairs with that little monoprice job. When I moved it dowbstairs I fully expected the little antenna to have issues. I was shocked that in Tega Cay downstairs that I picked up all the main channels (exc 64) including 9 and 58. I guess it's been the past two weeks I've given up and will try something new.
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post #2970 of 11945 Old 02-07-2011, 10:16 PM
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Originally Posted by tylerSC View Post

Superbowl did look spectacular last night on 18.1 OTA HD. And late news on Fox Clt looked great as well, with appealing new anchors and polished presentation. Wish I could receive OTA more often.

I think Fox Charlotte has come a long way in recent years when it comes to technical and programming. News content and presentation is very good.

As for the Fox network, they have some strong series (not reality) that I enjoy.
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