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post #1981 of 3464 Old 12-27-2008, 11:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Piggie View Post

Right now I am unemployed, and looking so I am free, so let you name the day and I am probably free. As long as I know what to bring.

I also have a 4221A and YA-1713 in the box if you are interested to see what they will do. But honestly unpacking and packing the 1713 is a little hassle as they dont like to fold back up and open twice all that well. Plus that after what we have learned in the last 2 weeks is way too much antenna for NW Gainesville. If the HD-1080 doesn't work, then I am 90% sure you can order an Antenna Craft Y5-7-13
http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_disp...p?PROD=Y5-7-13

It's still the busy season around here but I'm sure a day will open up in the next week or so.

Why is the 1713 too much? too much gain? I've yet to see what that looks like on the screen, but I imagine it's like amping a signal that's already 100%. I'll check out the Antenna Craft too.
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post #1982 of 3464 Old 12-27-2008, 10:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Piggie View Post

No, every single blog, maillist, forum I frequent, was dead dead dead for the last week. Little wonder! Merry Christmas! It was time for a break!

Santa was good, he brought me one of those Ebay ATSC USB tuners. Just came in today and not even unpacked. I need to download the drivers, dig out a spliter so I can feed it with antenna signal. I haven't even checked how it takes input. I will obviously keep you up to date on the adapter.

Awesome. =) Try out TSReader with it. ATSCBDASource is probably your driver. I'd love captures.

- Trip

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post #1983 of 3464 Old 12-28-2008, 06:17 AM
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Originally Posted by nobleach View Post

It's still the busy season around here but I'm sure a day will open up in the next week or so.

Why is the 1713 too much? too much gain? I've yet to see what that looks like on the screen, but I imagine it's like amping a signal that's already 100%. I'll check out the Antenna Craft too.

The 1713 is too much money. I seriously doubt a 1713 would overload your receivers. As an aside, too much gain (though it either takes an amp or living right next to a tower) causes no picture or very low signal though you know it should be slamming the meter. It can also cause weaker stations to disappear, due to overload in an amp or receiver cutting it's dynamic range so low, it can't lock the weaker signal.

But let me repeat, a station as low power as WNBW from your house couldn't over load ever unless you ran a brazillion db amp, which doesn't exist. WUFT would cook your goose long before anything else.

Back in the day (1960s, 1970s) before COX had much to offer a lot of people were still putting up antenna's in NW Gainesburger. Anyone that did, HAD to install a Ch5 trap and run the best coax possible, to shield out the CH5 from overloading everything. Even a lot of people ran amps to see Jax and WESH. They had to have very good ch5 traps.

Now since no one DX (distant stations) anymore from NW Gainesville to see channels they want, the huge power on CH36 from WUFT is not a big problem. Also the tuners are made better to reject overload than 40 years ago. The stations you want besides WUFT here in town are strong enough not to be a problem, even though WUFT does have most of you NW Gainesville homes in overload.

Now to take it one more step, if you ever put an amp on your system (or any one in the NW), it would overload things. You "might" get away with it with a very well shielded amp (even a CM7777 is not shielded), the best quad shield you could buy, making sure all connections are 100% tight. And a very good CH36 trap. Even that would NOT guarantee success. The problem is when it was on CH5, the wavelength was so long, only a big chunk of wire or coax would resonant. Now on CH36, the wavelength is so short, it would penetrate the circuit in the amplifier, your TV itself. You can always build an RF system that would operate in just about any environment, but it gets expensive and experimental. Hence why you hear, no amps in NW Gainesville.

So would a 1713 be too much gain to cause a problem, no. Would it be a waste of money and add more wind loading to your antenna system, yes.

There is a "tiny" chance, with a 1713 on a rotor, you "might" pull in WESH and WJCT when the skip rolls. You don't even need a VHF for WLUF, 10.0 and they are moving I guess according to FCC records to 5.1 actual, mapped to 10.1, but on a lower antenna. I am very curious what programming they will put there that is not on 5.3 (36.3).


Since you got back the Tivo, you have been able to give good feedback at least for me what it's like to live in NW Gainesville OTA wise.

My conclusions from just what you told me.

All UHF are not problem if you have a minimal UHF antenna outside (probably even less would work). Even WNBW puts in a good signal.

This is confirmed by what Tom Barry told me a month or so ago. His drawback on an inside antenna like a Silver Sensor is one has to turn it for all the UHFs. I believe the solution your brother? brother in law? did by building the YouTube version of the 4 bay without a reflector may be the ideal inside antenna for NW Gainesville. It's pretty easy to just set it on the floor, hiding it behind a wide screen or bookcase etc. What would be interesting is if he built a 300 ohm twin lead dipole to go with his homemade 4 bay and see if that was enough for him to pick up WNBW. Then that might be a great homemade indoor solution for NW Gainesville (I presume he lives near you?).

Did you ever try the rabbit ears inside hooked to the Tivo? That would answer the 300 twin lead antenna question.

Hope I didn't overload you with data.

Here are the money figures.

Pico Macom HLSJ VHF Band High-Low Antenna Separator-Combiner (HLSJ)
AntennaCraft Y5-7-13 Highband-Broadband VHF HD Yagi for Channels 7-13 (Y5-7-13)

$32 shipped from Solid Signal.

They want about $42 for the HD1080. But I have seen them at Amazon (just today) at a place called BuyNow, Inc for $32 shipped. Never heard of BuyNow, Inc, but they have a 5 star rating and good reviews.

So there is cost savings either way! One way you have a one antenna solution with less gain probably according to that guy I posted and the charts. The other way you have 2 antennas, more gain, really not that much more wind load as the Y5-7-13 isn't big at all. If the UHF is at the top of the mast, I would leave that there. The VHF would have so much gain, compared to picking us CH9 on the UHF, that putting it half way down would work fine. Ideally you want to be 5 feet from the UHF, but that puts you right on the tripod, which is too much metal. So compromise would be just putting in half way up.

Still happy to come test the 1080. But if 2 antennas are not a problem with you, then the little Antenna Craft would pull in a ton of WNBW.

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post #1984 of 3464 Old 12-28-2008, 02:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Piggie View Post

The 1713 is too much money. I seriously doubt a 1713 would overload your receivers. As an aside, too much gain (though it either takes an amp or living right next to a tower) causes no picture or very low signal though you know it should be slamming the meter. It can also cause weaker stations to disappear, due to overload in an amp or receiver cutting it's dynamic range so low, it can't lock the weaker signal.

But let me repeat, a station as low power as WNBW from your house couldn't over load ever unless you ran a brazillion db amp, which doesn't exist. WUFT would cook your goose long before anything else.

Back in the day (1960s, 1970s) before COX had much to offer a lot of people were still putting up antenna's in NW Gainesburger. Anyone that did, HAD to install a Ch5 trap and run the best coax possible, to shield out the CH5 from overloading everything. Even a lot of people ran amps to see Jax and WESH. They had to have very good ch5 traps.

Now since no one DX (distant stations) anymore from NW Gainesville to see channels they want, the huge power on CH36 from WUFT is not a big problem. Also the tuners are made better to reject overload than 40 years ago. The stations you want besides WUFT here in town are strong enough not to be a problem, even though WUFT does have most of you NW Gainesville homes in overload.

Now to take it one more step, if you ever put an amp on your system (or any one in the NW), it would overload things. You "might" get away with it with a very well shielded amp (even a CM7777 is not shielded), the best quad shield you could buy, making sure all connections are 100% tight. And a very good CH36 trap. Even that would NOT guarantee success. The problem is when it was on CH5, the wavelength was so long, only a big chunk of wire or coax would resonant. Now on CH36, the wavelength is so short, it would penetrate the circuit in the amplifier, your TV itself. You can always build an RF system that would operate in just about any environment, but it gets expensive and experimental. Hence why you hear, no amps in NW Gainesville.

So would a 1713 be too much gain to cause a problem, no. Would it be a waste of money and add more wind loading to your antenna system, yes.

There is a "tiny" chance, with a 1713 on a rotor, you "might" pull in WESH and WJCT when the skip rolls. You don't even need a VHF for WLUF, 10.0 and they are moving I guess according to FCC records to 5.1 actual, mapped to 10.1, but on a lower antenna. I am very curious what programming they will put there that is not on 5.3 (36.3).


Since you got back the Tivo, you have been able to give good feedback at least for me what it's like to live in NW Gainesville OTA wise.

My conclusions from just what you told me.

All UHF are not problem if you have a minimal UHF antenna outside (probably even less would work). Even WNBW puts in a good signal.

This is confirmed by what Tom Barry told me a month or so ago. His drawback on an inside antenna like a Silver Sensor is one has to turn it for all the UHFs. I believe the solution your brother? brother in law? did by building the YouTube version of the 4 bay without a reflector may be the ideal inside antenna for NW Gainesville. It's pretty easy to just set it on the floor, hiding it behind a wide screen or bookcase etc. What would be interesting is if he built a 300 ohm twin lead dipole to go with his homemade 4 bay and see if that was enough for him to pick up WNBW. Then that might be a great homemade indoor solution for NW Gainesville (I presume he lives near you?).

Did you ever try the rabbit ears inside hooked to the Tivo? That would answer the 300 twin lead antenna question.

Hope I didn't overload you with data.

Here are the money figures.

Pico Macom HLSJ VHF Band High-Low Antenna Separator-Combiner (HLSJ)
AntennaCraft Y5-7-13 Highband-Broadband VHF HD Yagi for Channels 7-13 (Y5-7-13)

$32 shipped from Solid Signal.

They want about $42 for the HD1080. But I have seen them at Amazon (just today) at a place called BuyNow, Inc for $32 shipped. Never heard of BuyNow, Inc, but they have a 5 star rating and good reviews.

So there is cost savings either way! One way you have a one antenna solution with less gain probably according to that guy I posted and the charts. The other way you have 2 antennas, more gain, really not that much more wind load as the Y5-7-13 isn't big at all. If the UHF is at the top of the mast, I would leave that there. The VHF would have so much gain, compared to picking us CH9 on the UHF, that putting it half way down would work fine. Ideally you want to be 5 feet from the UHF, but that puts you right on the tripod, which is too much metal. So compromise would be just putting in half way up.

Still happy to come test the 1080. But if 2 antennas are not a problem with you, then the little Antenna Craft would pull in a ton of WNBW.

I always appreciate your detailed answers. I can try an HD1080 to see if that would be a single antenna solution. (I'd need to have a decent ABC and NBC without turning it) If aiming the antenna between those two gave me a decent signal, it sure would require less wire, no combiner... less points of failure. The two antenna solution allows me to have ONE antenna dedicated to WNBW using it's FULL beam width.

I did look at the HD1080 specs and it appears that it might just be able to pull in a much wider bunch of signals. (I'm thinking the if I were to aim it more toward WNBW/WGFL I'd still be fine on WCJB)

The rabbit ears I hooked up indoors got me NOTHING... little spikes of 32% here and there but never enough to put a picture on the screen. My brother in law lives about a mile away on just off 39th more toward the highway... he doesn't know anything about WNBW as he's just getting started on this whole "new" OTA thing. (the irony being OTA far predates cable broadcasts)

My FOX is probably the weakest at about 70% at times. This is no biggie for me except during football season. My wife is a huge gator football fan and gets really uptight when the picture freezes or drops out for more than a second. (I could care less... I'd be fine reading the score online days later)

We're probably going to drop Cox altogether as that whole issue in November having HD/digital cable hooked up for one day cost us around 200 bucks. (I'll be calling to see if they will correct that tomorrow) We really only watch the networks these days anyway.
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post #1985 of 3464 Old 12-29-2008, 05:12 PM
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Originally Posted by nobleach View Post

I always appreciate your detailed answers. I can try an HD1080 to see if that would be a single antenna solution. (I'd need to have a decent ABC and NBC without turning it) If aiming the antenna between those two gave me a decent signal, it sure would require less wire, no combiner... less points of failure. The two antenna solution allows me to have ONE antenna dedicated to WNBW using it's FULL beam width.

I did look at the HD1080 specs and it appears that it might just be able to pull in a much wider bunch of signals. (I'm thinking the if I were to aim it more toward WNBW/WGFL I'd still be fine on WCJB)

The rabbit ears I hooked up indoors got me NOTHING... little spikes of 32% here and there but never enough to put a picture on the screen. My brother in law lives about a mile away on just off 39th more toward the highway... he doesn't know anything about WNBW as he's just getting started on this whole "new" OTA thing. (the irony being OTA far predates cable broadcasts)

My FOX is probably the weakest at about 70% at times. This is no biggie for me except during football season. My wife is a huge gator football fan and gets really uptight when the picture freezes or drops out for more than a second. (I could care less... I'd be fine reading the score online days later)

We're probably going to drop Cox altogether as that whole issue in November having HD/digital cable hooked up for one day cost us around 200 bucks. (I'll be calling to see if they will correct that tomorrow) We really only watch the networks these days anyway.

I am guessing Fox is the weakest and you don't have a rotor. It is double the distance of the other towers. And you have a much wider spread between WGFL and WOGX than I.

What happens if you aim more toward WOGX? Do you loose CBS and ABC?

All this makes sense if a lot of the answers above are yes, as the RS UHF only has a 50 degree or so beam width. It might be borderline too narrow without a rotor for NW Gainesville. If I knew what I know now, and you wanted a two antenna solution, I bet a DB2 (4bay is probably over kill) and that small VHF beam.

The one thing that bugs me is I am just as far from WOGX as you are and I only see 81% on it but 100% on all others. However, there is a ghost on 51.0 I can't get rid of by turning. I think that is my problem and it may be overloading my amp. The thing is it never fades. It holds a rock solid 81% even when I see the others drop from 100 down to 90 on bad conditions, why I suspect mulitpath as my main problem on FOX.

We may find WOGX is still weak on the HD1080. I was going to test it today but domestic squabbles, I found it easier to hide. I love it.

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post #1986 of 3464 Old 12-29-2008, 06:02 PM
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I am guessing Fox is the weakest and you don't have a rotor. It is double the distance of the other towers. And you have a much wider spread between WGFL and WOGX than I.

What happens if you aim more toward WOGX? Do you loose CBS and ABC?

All this makes sense if a lot of the answers above are yes, as the RS UHF only has a 50 degree or so beam width. It might be borderline too narrow without a rotor for NW Gainesville. If I knew what I know now, and you wanted a two antenna solution, I bet a DB2 (4bay is probably over kill) and that small VHF beam.

The one thing that bugs me is I am just as far from WOGX as you are and I only see 81% on it but 100% on all others. However, there is a ghost on 51.0 I can't get rid of by turning. I think that is my problem and it may be overloading my amp. The thing is it never fades. It holds a rock solid 81% even when I see the others drop from 100 down to 90 on bad conditions, why I suspect mulitpath as my main problem on FOX.

We may find WOGX is still weak on the HD1080. I was going to test it today but domestic squabbles, I found it easier to hide. I love it.

I'll hop up on the roof tomorrow and point it right at WOGX.... I'm thinking WCJB will still be pretty good. Right now, either solution (HD1080 or a separate VHF with a combiner) sounds fine to me.
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post #1987 of 3464 Old 12-30-2008, 09:24 AM
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I'd say pointing closer to WOGX was marginally better.... I think I'll be in the market for a better UHF in the new year. If I watched a lot of FOX, it would be right now. Since most of our viewing is on ABC, I'll be fine for now.

I did go ahead and order a VHF and combiner from solid signal (the AntennaCraft Y5-7-13 Highband-Broadband VHF HD Yagi for Channels 7-13 that recommended by Piggie) Had to do the 2 day shipping because of my impatience... and the fact that people will be over to watch The Office on NBC next Thursday.
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post #1988 of 3464 Old 12-30-2008, 01:42 PM
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I'd say pointing closer to WOGX was marginally better.... I think I'll be in the market for a better UHF in the new year. If I watched a lot of FOX, it would be right now. Since most of our viewing is on ABC, I'll be fine for now.

I did go ahead and order a VHF and combiner from solid signal (the AntennaCraft Y5-7-13 Highband-Broadband VHF HD Yagi for Channels 7-13 that recommended by Piggie) Had to do the 2 day shipping because of my impatience... and the fact that people will be over to watch The Office on NBC next Thursday.

I am 99% sure that VHF beam is going to pin your meter (old ham radio term meaning full scale signal and no, the CBer's didn't invent it! lol). Hmm, when you pointed at WOGX did WGFL drop? WCJB and WOGX are so close to the same heading for you, I would imagine pointing more toward WOGX could only make WCJB stronger.

Well I would say now with that test, the HD-1080 was not going to be your UHF solution. Not enough gain.

Another thing, with you not seeing much more out of WOGX, than I see, I wonder if they are truly running 500KW ERP? It would not be the first time a budgeted station did that, and they are a budget minded station.

If you upgrade your UHF later, you might consider the DB4. It has about 80 degree beamwidth, compared to your Radio Shack. That might pull up WOGX and keep WGFL up there also. DB2 "might" work but it has no more gain than your radio shack. What you need is a lot of gain and wide.

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post #1989 of 3464 Old 12-30-2008, 01:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Trip in VA View Post

Awesome. =) Try out TSReader with it. ATSCBDASource is probably your driver. I'd love captures.

- Trip

http://www.coolstf.com/tsreader/

Is this it? The free light version says it does ATSC.

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post #1990 of 3464 Old 12-30-2008, 02:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Piggie View Post

http://www.coolstf.com/tsreader/

Is this it? The free light version says it does ATSC.

Yep. Install it, and when it asks for a driver, ATSCBDASource should work for you. =)

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post #1991 of 3464 Old 12-30-2008, 04:28 PM
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Yep. Install it, and when it asks for a driver, ATSCBDASource should work for you. =)

- Trip

Ok, It's working. Now how to capture you needs?

=========================

BTW, apparently WFTV has quietly dropped their analog power (I suspect many are doing this considering a full power electric bill can be $100 to $200 a day). After all who cares at this point? 3 to 6 db drop in power saves 50 to 75% of their electric bill, which between now Feb 17 that could be thousands of bucks.

Anyway, WNBW now locks on all TV's with 10 elements at 20 ft, 37 miles away, it right on the edge. Night is not too bad, daytime is not watchable. I need to add another 10 elements up there to see if that does it. At least it doesn't have the deep long long fades WESH can have, ruining viewing totally. Doesn't that seem crazy to have to stack a pair of 1713's just to watch a "local" channel? geezzzzzzzzzzz..... And until I try it I won't know how well stacking works.

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Ok, It's working. Now how to capture you needs?

It's simple. You check out a channel (I want 'em all! ) and then give it a bit of time (10-15 seconds) to settle. If it gets more than 20 errors, restart the program and try again, as it'll make the data screwy. Then go to Export > HTML Export. At the bottom, check all the boxes except EIT and Thumbnails (don't need that data), then give it a name like the call sign or something. Save it, repeat for everything you see, zip them all up and e-mail them to me. Then watch the data magically appear on RabbitEars.

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post #1993 of 3464 Old 12-30-2008, 05:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Trip in VA View Post

It's simple. You check out a channel (I want 'em all! ) and then give it a bit of time (10-15 seconds) to settle. If it gets more than 20 errors, restart the program and try again, as it'll make the data screwy. Then go to Export > HTML Export. At the bottom, check all the boxes except EIT and Thumbnails (don't need that data), then give it a name like the call sign or something. Save it, repeat for everything you see, zip them all up and e-mail them to me. Then watch the data magically appear on RabbitEars.

- Trip

Look in your webmaster email box, they should be there but with the EIT and Thumbnails. Can you edit that would with something? I hope I locked on and got good data. I did wait, just because I always wait 5 to 10 seconds on any digital signal.

Let me know if they are good enough. Glad to do them again, only took a second. Got WESH but no other Orlando or Jacksonville was there.

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Look in your webmaster email box, they should be there but with the EIT and Thumbnails. Can you edit that would with something? I hope I locked on and got good data. I did wait, just because I always wait 5 to 10 seconds on any digital signal.

Let me know if they are good enough. Glad to do them again, only took a second. Got WESH but no other Orlando or Jacksonville was there.

WGFL and WNBW have a ton of errors in them. Can you redo those? The rest look fine. =)

No sweat, I can edit them to remove the EIT and thumbnails, it just takes a little extra time. Any chance of not including EIT or Thumbnails on the redo of WNBW and WGFL this time?

Thanks so much! Don't hesitate to send me any future stations you get.

- Trip

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post #1995 of 3464 Old 12-31-2008, 03:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Trip in VA View Post

WGFL and WNBW have a ton of errors in them. Can you redo those? The rest look fine. =)

No sweat, I can edit them to remove the EIT and thumbnails, it just takes a little extra time. Any chance of not including EIT or Thumbnails on the redo of WNBW and WGFL this time?

Thanks so much! Don't hesitate to send me any future stations you get.

- Trip

Good news and bad news. I can redo WGFL and just instinct says I can get error free data, because I captured it with the antenna 90 degrees to the station. Amazed it pulled it out as neither TV would lock. Even AVER showed a glitch free picture. So I point it correctly and that should be solved.

Everyone is still sleeping so since I have an armstrong rotor, I will wait till later. Once I set TSReader to do WGFL, I can click through WUFT,WCJB,WOGX with what? About 10 clicks. So don't Edit but don't delete them either cause.............

Since about 8pm last night WNBW is GONE.. It is still on the air I would think. But now I am seeing stinking sync bars again from WFTV 9.0 in Bithlo. They are faint, but I have seen similar faint sync come in on strong skip and wipe out 28/WGFL. Now this morning WNBW is just jumping between 15 and 27, what my main TV does when it sees something but never locks.

Yesterday may have been a fluke. I had the 1713 pointed right at WNBW. It was the first station I tried on TSReader, and it was probably 5 minutes until I did the report finding what you wanted in the menus.

Hence, for the time being, that is probably as good as WNBW stats I am going to get. If you use them to display, you might want to add the disclaimer that is was some pig that stepped in the results, muddied them up, and well now he says he is not leaving his Feed Trough to do them again.

I will check out WNBW again today. If it starts coming in, I will do a bunch of captures hoping one makes it.

And if WESH didn't have errors you see why I often think I should just gear up for it, and not WNBW.

But never fear, I can at least redo all the Gainesville UHFs, and redo WESH, as it comes in strong most of the time.

And I will be waiting for the next night of skip. We need a HUGE ridge of high pressure to park over me one night and me logging and armstronging my antlers.

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post #1996 of 3464 Old 12-31-2008, 07:12 AM
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Yep, WESH-DT looked fine. No rush on the others, but if you get some free time and want to try redoing them without the EIT/Thumbnails, I'll be glad to have them. =)

Look for the data in the listings to be updated some time today, and I'll hold off on uploading the raw captures until you either send me new ones or you tell me you don't want to and I should edit them.



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Originally Posted by Trip in VA View Post

Yep, WESH-DT looked fine. No rush on the others, but if you get some free time and want to try redoing them without the EIT/Thumbnails, I'll be glad to have them. =)

Look for the data in the listings to be updated some time today, and I'll hold off on uploading the raw captures until you either send me new ones or you tell me you don't want to and I should edit them.



- Trip

Making you new ones. WNBW is locking on one TV, flacky on TV 2, and nada on the USB stick. I will keep trying today to get a better WNBW but don't hold your breath. The GNV UHFs will be coming by the end of the day at the latest. I can't get a WGFL capture without turning away from WNBW, which I am hoping at some point peaks and I get you a good capture.

Dang it's frustrating being right in the middle of 2 NBCs, with flaky on both, ARGGGGG!!!

WNBW hear my pleas, raise you power!!

I think I should start complaining to the sales and trafficking depts about lousy signal, and I shop in Gainesville. Pity the people in Central Marion, as well as me. I would guess by the time you get to southern Marion County, WESH gets strong if you have a big antenna and if you have have it up 20 ft or more. Thanks for letting me rant......

WNBW please raise your power!!! 4.9 KW is more like LD, not a DT station!

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post #1998 of 3464 Old 12-31-2008, 07:20 AM
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(LD is 0.3 kW, 4.9 kW is just a power level the FCC seems to think is acceptable but really isn't. )

- Trip

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trip in VA View Post

(LD is 0.3 kW, 4.9 kW is just a power level the FCC seems to think is acceptable but really isn't. )

- Trip

Talked to engineering there today. Not much if any chance of more power or them stopping protecting Orlando market. Put 2 and 2 together Trip, and you should be able to figure it out. IM as it may not be good for details where Google can find them.

But for the foreseeable future, the WNBW you see is the WNBW we have. I even added to them that even in NW Gainesville you need an outdoor antenna to lock. They know, and there is a reason they are low power.

Edit: LD should be considered anything 15KW or less. Insane....... The problem being even worse, is the local and network bean counters believe the FCC and ignore local signal reports.

Again, the fastest way to probably push them is call, talk to sales and say are having trouble with their OTA.

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LD is 0.3 kW on VHF and 15 kW on UHF.

As for the protecting of Orlando, I don't see why they'd have to once WFTV goes away, especially if they mapped to 29-1 like they should. They might not want to replace the antenna, however, and the current antenna may not be rated for power levels higher than the 4.9 kW ERP they're putting through it now. Plus they might not want to replace a brand new transmitter, though it could always make a nice backup.

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But for the foreseeable future, the WNBW you see is the WNBW we have. I even added to them that even in NW Gainesville you need an outdoor antenna to lock. They know, and there is a reason they are low power.

It's just legitimate enough to get it on Cox's "must carry" roster.... meaning people will see local advertisements for whatever that jewelry store is that always gets the current UF football coach to plug them. (yeah I know that was a huge run on sentence)

Very few smaller businesses can afford to advertise on the affiliates anyway. The ad sales dept at most cable companies really make their money on CNN, ESPN, Lifetime, VH1 and a few others.

I imagine that the big shots at WNBW believe the majority of their viewers are going to be seeing them via Cox cable... hence... they could care less about the antenna folks.
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They signed on network, which happened to be a Clorox commercial.

So now know what the C is in NBC, Clorox!

Their first local ad feed was FL Pest Control. They missed a lot of local inserts during network, now, well they must be fixing again, the test pattern in back up!

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post #2003 of 3464 Old 12-31-2008, 02:23 PM
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It's just legitimate enough to get it on Cox's "must carry" roster.... meaning people will see local advertisements for whatever that jewelry store is that always gets the current UF football coach to plug them. (yeah I know that was a huge run on sentence)

Very few smaller businesses can afford to advertise on the affiliates anyway. The ad sales dept at most cable companies really make their money on CNN, ESPN, Lifetime, VH1 and a few others.

I imagine that the big shots at WNBW believe the majority of their viewers are going to be seeing them via Cox cable... hence... they could care less about the antenna folks.

I talked to them this morning. You are 90% right, the funny thing is I heard COX is keeping WESH. WESH and NBC go back a LONG LONG way. I moved to Orlando in 1960 and they were already blowing a huge signal. There was no Bithlo tower farm back then. WFTV was WLOF on 9.0 and broadcast from around HW 50 and Kirkman Road. They had about a 500 ft tower and so did WDBO 6 which was a little closer to town about 441 and 50.

Channel 9 was the first to move to Bithlo and one day changing or adding a tower light, they took out some bolts so they could remove a cross member to squeeze the light in the tower. Oops. Tower fell. Of course no one lived from 1000 ft up. They still had their tower there near Pine Hills and used it until Bithlo went back up. Every on thought it was crazy to even build a tower to 500m. Soon there were towers everywhere there and now with WESH moving there, it's the start of new era with all major channels there on Bithlo.

Did I get off topic?

Anyway, yes, the bean counters don't care about range. The technical staff does. They were happy to hear I even see it.

Today it's been about 48 all day, which is well above drop outs. But I am watching it now and waiting for the sync tips from WFTV to wipe it out.

At least I know I can get it. Which means I keep my antenna the same till Feb 17, if I want NBC at night, which I do. Then change it around for WNBW after. At least WNBW only fades about 10 to 20 points. WESH would fade 40 or more at times.

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post #2004 of 3464 Old 12-31-2008, 08:24 PM
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A few hours ago my receiver in the bed room stopped producing audio on WNBW. I thought, well they are playing with things. Then I remembered I had that capture with TSReader from yesterday! Then I compared all the other stations in town. Lookie here:

Yesterday:

Terrestrial Virtual Channel Table
Channel 3
Service Name: WNBW-DT
TSID: 1 (0x0001)
Channel Number: 9.1
Carrier Frequency: 0
Modulation Mode: ATSC (8 VSB)
Source ID: 1
Descriptor: ATSC Service Location Descriptor
Service Location Descriptor:
PCR PID 0x0031
Stream Type 0x02 (MPEG-2 Video) ESPID = 0x0031 Language = und
Stream Type 0x81 (AC-3 Audio) ESPID = 0x0034 Language = eng
Descriptor: ATSC Extended Channel Name Descriptor
Extended Channel Name: WNBW-HD

Today:

Terrestrial Virtual Channel Table
Channel 3
Service Name: WNBW-DT
TSID: 1 (0x0001)
Channel Number: 9.1
Carrier Frequency: 0
Modulation Mode: ATSC (8 VSB)
Source ID: 1
Descriptor: ATSC Service Location Descriptor
Service Location Descriptor:
PCR PID 0x0031
Stream Type 0x02 (MPEG-2 Video) ESPID = 0x0031 Language = und
Stream Type 0x04 (MPEG-2 Audio) ESPID = 0x0034 Language = eng
Descriptor: ATSC Extended Channel Name Descriptor
Extended Channel Name: WNBW-HD

===========

They switched to MPEG-2 Audio. And obviously my bedroom receiver doesn't like it. Every time I get closer to being able to use WNBW, they through out another stone in the path.

I checked every other station logs I had captured, all used AC-3 encoding.

I hope beyond all hope, this was just a test. There were doing a lot of testing about 6 to 8 pm tonight, putting up different sources than the test pattern. That is when it started. I hope to heck and back they go back to AC-3.

I would assume from my situation my bedroom receiver can only decode AC-3 and that is the default standard that most if not all receivers can decode. But only some and maybe mainly newer ones can decode MPEG-2 ???

================

Another aside if anyone knows like Trip. One of the channels I receive, WCJB won't map to 20.1 on my bedroom (older) receiver. I have to use the real channel 16.1 though I have rescanned, manually entered, you name it. I swear when I first got that TV 2 years ago it mapped to 20.1

Now, question is it possible to see that in the TSReader capture? The difference in how they map? I am going to go look now, but maybe Trip you have seen this before.

This digital is crazy!!! :@) OINK!

Happy New Years!

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post #2005 of 3464 Old 12-31-2008, 08:34 PM
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No. MPEG-2 audio is NOT included in the ATSC standard, only AC3 audio is supported. They'll need to switch back to it or lots of receivers won't get audio.

It's not the first time I've heard of a station's mapping failing on only a few receivers, but I didn't see anything wrong with that station (KCVU in Chico) nor do I see anything wrong with the data you sent me for WCJB.

Finally, you'll find that the data you've sent me for Gainesville is now showing up on my site's listings, but not the raw data. I'll post all of that in a group once you get me those new captures for WGFL and WESH.

Thanks. =)

- Trip

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WNBW went live at 12 as expected. The HD looks great, too. To me the WGFL signal looks a bit pixelated at times (not dropout but just compressed) but the WNBW source sounds and looks great. No more time to test so hopefully they got it right.
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post #2007 of 3464 Old 12-31-2008, 09:49 PM
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My Olevia decoded the MPEG-2 but my Hitachi puked up blood.

I emailed, them, then suddenly they went from test pattern to live NBC about 11:30.

So I figured they were there. I called and took a chance and the Chief picked up the phone. It was an accident. NBC hasn't delivered the box to them yet for audio so they can do 5.1 and we was seeing what the temp box would do. And he accidentally set it to MPEG-2. He was glad I noticed.

For me it was pretty exciting day to watch a new station morph on. I bet it was more fun (read that hectic) being there.

It seems they are stable now. Watching Jay Leno show that came on late after the times square thing.

-------

I checked WCJB against everyone and I can't see why they don't map. I know you see this come up, more so in the past, then my receiver is circa 2005 design (the old one in the bed room). It's odd anyway, it has a 480i widescreen tube, but HD looks pretty good on it, considering it's only 26inch.

Anyway, some genius out there knows why some receivers don't map on certain channels. One of us will run into him sooner or later.

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post #2008 of 3464 Old 12-31-2008, 10:14 PM
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WNBW went live at 12 as expected. The HD looks great, too. To me the WGFL signal looks a bit pixelated at times (not dropout but just compressed) but the WNBW source sounds and looks great. No more time to test so hopefully they got it right.

yeap, watching it now. Talked to the chief over there a couple times today, and I watched the signal all day. He has 95% of the bugs out. The rest 95% of the people won't see. One last hurdle is they are waiting for the equipment to do 5.1 audio, and currently only have stereo, which I bet more people haven't noticed.

Here is WNBW

Stream Type: 0x02 MPEG-2 Video PID 49 (0x0031)
MPEG Video: Bitrate 17.000 Mbps Resolution 1920 x 1080i
MPEG Video: Framerate 29.97 fps Aspect Ratio 16:9 Chroma Format 4:2:0
Descriptor: Data Stream Alignment Descriptor
Alignment type: video access unit

Here is WGFL

Stream Type: 0x02 MPEG-2 Video PID 49 (0x0031)
MPEG Video: Bitrate 13.315 Mbps Resolution 1920 x 1080i
MPEG Video: Framerate 29.97 fps Aspect Ratio 16:9 Chroma Format 4:2:0
Descriptor: STD Descriptor
Leak Valid Flag: 1
Descriptor: Smoothing Buffer Descriptor
SB Leak Rate: 48482 SB Size: 2048
Descriptor: Data Stream Alignment Descriptor
Alignment type: video access unit
Descriptor: ATSC Caption Service Descriptor
ATSC Caption Service Descriptor:
Language: eng Format: Captions service 1

----------

I am still learning how to read this data, but it does appear the Smoothing Buffer Descriptor sounds like a form of video interpolation to smooth out compression artifacts. Just a guess. I worked in digital video way back in it's origin in the late 70's and 80's and we had the same type of circuits. Even though the techniques have changed, the basic concepts of digital video still apply.

More research needed but considering 28 is splitting 2 programs and 9 is not, could be the difference.

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post #2009 of 3464 Old 01-01-2009, 06:37 AM
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I see nothing but a gray screen for WNBW (with no audio).... I'll rescan but if my TiVo tuner doesn't get it.... I'm what I like to call "super screwed". I checked last night, and I was pulling a 60% signal strength on that gray screen... at least before I was seeing the "WNBW Digital Channel 9" test screen.

Kid's watching TV for the next hour so I have to wait.
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I would like to turn my computer into a DVR, but I would like the encrypted HD channels as well, does anyone know of anything that allows you to use a cablecard for a homemade DVR?
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