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post #61 of 8923 Old 01-26-2007, 10:38 AM
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I think they will - it's either that or stop the NTSC early.

I would expect some "middle of the night" tests where they shutdown NTSC to "test" the ATSC equipment before they actually go "live".

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post #62 of 8923 Old 01-26-2007, 10:40 AM
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I think the full power will be a flash cut in 2/09. My opinion is that 7 and 9 will stay on their current low power UHF transmitters until that date. I dont know how much of the transmitter besides the exciter and the antenna is frequency specific, but it cant be cheap and seems like a waste to go full power UHF for just the few months possible
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post #63 of 8923 Old 01-26-2007, 11:18 AM
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Like I said in the last thread...

If I still lived back there and was told by any station that they would not broadcast high power DT until they shutoff their NTSC transmitter and moved it to a new facility (after Feb 17 '09) I would bitch loudly and clearly to the FCC. That is just plain unacceptable. They have obligations to meet and just about every other TV station in the country has met those obligations and for any station to decide to hold off because they want to save cash is not only an insult to every OTA Denver viewer but also to every other TV station that will have been on the air for years by the time LCG2 is completed. Sorry that pig just ain't gonna fly.

If you read my posts from years ago you'll note that I have little respect for the way the FCC has handled this whole Lookout mess but even I don't think they'd let the stations slide on this. All they'd have to do is require them to get on the air or lose their license - alternately they could tell KMGH and KUSA that they cannot keep channels 7 & 9.

I think it entirely reasonable to expect they'll borrow or rent or buy the necessary equipment to get on the air ASAP after LCG2 is completed. Denver has waited long enough and further delay without just cause would be a kick in the groin (to put it politely). You all might want to hire Deb to sue their asses if that comes to pass......

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post #64 of 8923 Old 01-26-2007, 11:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geof View Post

You all might want to hire Deb to sue their asses if that comes to pass......

Deb can't make anything happen. Her specialty is preventing anything from happening.

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post #65 of 8923 Old 01-26-2007, 12:14 PM
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Originally Posted by oxothuk View Post

Affluent, I think you meant. I think you are probably right overall, although I expect there will be a lot of publicity about the transition by the middle of next year. And it is possible that the subsidized STBs will be available as well.

And there are a few stations which the FCC has already allowed to make the transition to digital only. I haven't heard of any case where a station requested a transition and the FCC denied it.


Yes affluent, that's an interesting oversight on my part!

I know of a station on Long Island the went digital only early. They were given permission to do so after the FCC determined that would not impact the public in it's coverage area because many NTSC stations can still be received.

If I operated a TV station, I also would want to get this digital thing behind me. But there are too many risks in a major metro area of prematurely loosing viewers. If you haven't noticed, the party controlling Congress has always considered this DTV initiative to be an assault on the poor and disadvantaged. The FCC is an instrument of that Congress. Maybe the date will be pushed back to 2012. Who knows?

In the TV business, viewers are dollars and I wouldn't want to loose any until the maximum number of them can receive my broadcasts. So I would wait until the last second before pulling the NTSC plug.

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post #66 of 8923 Old 01-26-2007, 12:41 PM
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As Geof said, stations all over the country that are planning to return to their (usually high VHF) NTSC channel are full power on their "temp" channel until analog cutoff. Take a look at KTVT in Dallas - 695 ERP on channel 19, but will be going back to channel 11 in 2-09 as just one example. I can't think of one valid reason why channels 7 & 9 should be exempted from going full power ASAP. They've already received a substantial "break", for lack of a better term, from operating both NTSC and full power ATSC for years that virtually no other market in the US has afforded.

Once the LCG tower is complete, which, by my entry into the "pool" would be May 2008, there is absolutely no excuse for channels 4, 7, 9, & 20 not being at full power. If they aren't, considering all the lead time they've had for site planning, designing their building, and shopping for electronic equipment, absent something other that an excuse that equates to procrastinating (like KOAA in the Springs), I'll volunteer to be the first to file a complaint with the FCC. And they don't have to shut off their NTSC transmitters to do this.

Folks on this thread have been bitching for years that Denver doesn't have full power OTA. Now it seems that many of you think the stations can delay this further up until 2-09 and it will probably be OK with you as you understand there's a financial commitment involved. I guess I don't get it.
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post #67 of 8923 Old 01-26-2007, 12:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by milehighmike View Post

Once the LCG tower is complete, which, by my entry into the "pool" would be May 2008...

We ought to be clear on what our pool dates mean. I don't think most people were assuming this was tower complete, but an "on-air" date, as shown in the title on Ernie's calendar. Of course, since there's absolutely nothing at stake, I guess we don't have to be clear...
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post #68 of 8923 Old 01-26-2007, 12:53 PM
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My guess for pool date is 11/21/09 (way late) and I proclaim that my guess be unclear!

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post #69 of 8923 Old 01-26-2007, 01:49 PM
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Call me an optimist. My guess is that one station, probably KCNC will go live on the tower on Feb 19, 2008. Plenty of time to get it up and KCNC doesn't have to worry about channel reassignment. I wouldn't be surprised if 7 and 9 wait until cutoff date to avoid duplicating equipment.
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post #70 of 8923 Old 01-26-2007, 02:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by milehighmike View Post

Now it seems that many of you think the stations can delay this further up until 2-09 and it will probably be OK with you as you understand there's a financial commitment involved. I guess I don't get it.

We're arguing about at most 6 to 9 months, for just two stations. After years of wondering if we would EVER have full-power DTV I'm just glad to finally have a data (2-09) that we can count on.

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post #71 of 8923 Old 01-26-2007, 02:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gakon View Post

I don't think most people were assuming this was tower complete, but an "on-air" date

for at least one of the four LCG stations. At least that's what I meant with my prediction.

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post #72 of 8923 Old 01-26-2007, 02:53 PM
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Here is my take on when you will see full power digital at Denver.

Facts as I understand them:

1) Several Denver stations are transmitting NTSC on VHF channels from their own towers on Lookout. They are transmitting NTSC at their maximum authorized power. Most plan to use the same channels for ATSC digital.

2) These stations are also transmitting ATSC on 'loaned' UHF Channels from a downtown location using whatever power they are authorized to do this. They will relinquish these UHF channels when they go digital only on VHF from Lookout. The present UHF digital downtown site is then permanently turned off and is no longer a factor. The old NTSC equipment remains in service until the changeover moment and then either goes into the garbage or, if possible, is modified for ATSC and moved into the new vault as a backup.

3) They cannot turn on their new full power digital stations until they pull the NTSC plug. Obviously they cannot simultaneously operate NTSC and ATSC on their elected VHF channels.

4) They will wait for the new consolidated site to be completed before they broadcast digital from lookout.

5) They are not required to do anything different from they do today until a Congressionally mandated time arrives.

I'll still contend that management will wait until the last moment or they may not get early permission. So, I'll cast my vote for the last second of the analog era (whenever that is) for Lookout full power digital.

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post #73 of 8923 Old 01-26-2007, 02:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geof View Post

Like I said in the last thread...

If I still lived back there and was told by any station that they would not broadcast high power DT until they shutoff their NTSC transmitter and moved it to a new facility (after Feb 17 '09) I would bitch loudly and clearly to the FCC. That is just plain unacceptable. They have obligations to meet and just about every other TV station in the country has met those obligations and for any station to decide to hold off because they want to save cash is not only an insult to every OTA Denver viewer but also to every other TV station that will have been on the air for years by the time LCG2 is completed. Sorry that pig just ain't gonna fly.

If you read my posts from years ago you'll note that I have little respect for the way the FCC has handled this whole Lookout mess but even I don't think they'd let the stations slide on this. All they'd have to do is require them to get on the air or lose their license - alternately they could tell KMGH and KUSA that they cannot keep channels 7 & 9.

I think it entirely reasonable to expect they'll borrow or rent or buy the necessary equipment to get on the air ASAP after LCG2 is completed. Denver has waited long enough and further delay without just cause would be a kick in the groin (to put it politely). You all might want to hire Deb to sue their asses if that comes to pass......

AMEN!

What he said!
[Curmudgeon Mode ON]
I agree 100% with Geof. All (S)CARE really did was provide the LCG stations with a convenient excuse to avoid the cost of dual transmission which every other major station in the country has had to absorb. I don't care if they will only be up for two weeks at full power before dropping the NTSC analog and switching back to the old frequencies, I expect ALL of the station to be on the air in ATSC as soon as possible. They have been given a free ride by the FCC for many years, and I have no doubt that even if they have to buy extra equipment to be on the air from Lookout on their current frequencies and do a 'flash cut' to Lookout at the time they shut down the RB, they have had the advantage of 3-5 years of price drops on the equipment as the technology has become more commonplace. They should do this as soon as possible, not when it is convenient to shut off the analog. PERIOD! I blame the LCG and the FCC as much as (S)CARE for this entire fiasco, which may account for my being so frustrated as to become a major curmudgeon on this thread. Yes, I wanted the LCG to win, but that does not exonerate them from blame in this matter. The FCC on its own has been FAR too lenient on these stations as well. They should have fined the LCG stations by the month starting several years ago.

[/curmudgeon Mode OFF]

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post #74 of 8923 Old 01-26-2007, 04:23 PM
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I'm staying with my original guess, September 29, 2008.
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post #75 of 8923 Old 01-26-2007, 11:08 PM
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John, I agree with your eloquent opinion 100%. We do not have to have any empathy for the LCG stations regarding any further delays in reaching full power digital status.

Quote:


3) They cannot turn on their new full power digital stations until they pull the NTSC plug. Obviously they cannot simultaneously operate NTSC and ATSC on their elected VHF channels.

HIPAR, the first sentence is not correct. While it's true that channels 7 & 9 cannot broadcast a digital signal on those frequencies until after analog cutoff, they can (and must in my opinion) go full power digital on channels 16 & 17 until analog cutoff. If these two stations need to purchase some new equipment that they'll only be able to use for a few months, one must remember that they'll only use it for months because they should have taken stronger steps years ago to go full power. In other words, that's too damn bad!

Quote:


5) They are not required to do anything different from they do today until a Congressionally mandated time arrives.

And perhaps you forgot that the four major networks were required to be at full digital power quite some time ago and all other full power stations, which includes channel 20, were required to be at full power 12-31-06 unless they received approval to flash cut. (Not that the FCC appears to be enforcing this requirement - KGWN in Cheyenne, a CBS affiliate, still is on it's STA)

As far as my "pool" date, I guess I wasn't clear, as you correctly point out, Gakon. I thought the pool was to predict the first full power transmission date of any of the LCG channels and my previous post wasn't clear in that regard.
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post #76 of 8923 Old 01-27-2007, 07:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dr_mal View Post

Done!

To use this Google calendar, login (or create an account first) and use the "search public calendars" function to look for "lcgonair". There is only one search result.
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post #77 of 8923 Old 01-27-2007, 07:38 AM
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dr_mal, I wasn't trying to step on your calender by creating a new one, I just thought It would help to have an quick, online one.

Your date is fixed!
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post #78 of 8923 Old 01-27-2007, 08:00 AM
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Okay I will jump in and say that 7 and 9 will cutt over because if 4 changes over as soon as possible they with 31 and 2 will be the only HD in town. This would allow the CBS affilate to gain market share which of course 7 and 9 would not want to happen.

Well was that clear as mud
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post #79 of 8923 Old 01-27-2007, 09:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by santellavision View Post

dr_mal, I wasn't trying to step on your calender by creating a new one, I just thought I would help to have an quick, online one.

No worries - I didn't know if anyone here used Google Calendar on a regular basis - it's overkill for just this pool.

BTW - my guess was 7/29/08, not 8/29/08

You are indeed a wise man! - TotallyPreWired
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post #80 of 8923 Old 01-27-2007, 10:30 AM
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I have always been extremely pessimistic about the prospects of LCG2 ever happening. This was indicated by the most pessimistic guess in the last go round of the LCG2 live contest. I am assuming we only need 1 live ATSC stream to establish the LCG2 date.

I therefore, notwithstanding any flange shortages, establish my new guess at the most optimistic date of December 27, 2007. That's right. 2007.

Don
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post #81 of 8923 Old 01-27-2007, 10:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by donyoop View Post

.............I therefore, notwithstanding any flange shortages, establish my new guess at the most optimistic date of December 27, 2007. That's right. 2007.

Don



For some reason, I sure hope you win!

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post #82 of 8923 Old 01-27-2007, 05:41 PM
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First of all, I agree with all the 'curmudgeons'

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Originally Posted by milehighmike View Post

(Not that the FCC appears to be enforcing this requirement - KGWN in Cheyenne, a CBS affiliate, still is on it's STA)

Wow, R U kidding me? They are my most reliable station with my best signal strength(from 147 miles ). If they are putting out only low power, they are as big of a fluke as KMGH was prior to moving to RP.

As far as the FCC incompetence goes. They are just like the rest of our wonderful government. If it's not for political reasons or to pacify corporate America, it usually doesn't happen. I find it particularly distasteful that they just sat on their hands through this whole episode.

I do find it funny that in a state with the worst abusers of the FCC digital full power 'rules', 2 senators had to create a bill 'under the cover of darkness' to move things along. It would have just been easier if the FCC had the balls to force the issue years ago.

As far as LCG is concerned, I expect them to 'keep playing the game'. I would guess that the '15 to 18 months' estimate is just more BS to try and appear that they really are planning on going live prior to 02/17/09. So, I don't expect it.

After all, the millions required does LCG more good invested than sitting on the side of a mountain depreciating.
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post #83 of 8923 Old 01-28-2007, 06:55 AM
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So, what would everyone here do if THEY were in charge of the stations? Remember, you can't piss off the viewers, the FCC, the environmentalists, the Cable companies, the DBS companies, the local authorities, or the stockholders....or you lose your job.

(BTW, funding is not infinite.)

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post #84 of 8923 Old 01-28-2007, 07:05 AM
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Well, what I'd do and what will most likely happen are two different things. I'd build the new tower, and broadcast OTA DTV and turn-off the analog a little early. (It might be a couple of months early - not that big of a deal as it will go away anyway) Yes, it will be to the dismay of some, but then try to work out giving away the cheapo, OTA DTV receivers to the poor.

But, what will most likely happen is... They'll continue as is (LP DTV from Republic Plaza & Analog from Lookout). Take their time building the new tower right up until the deadline. Then do the full switch-out to DTV on 2/09.
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post #85 of 8923 Old 01-28-2007, 08:40 AM
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I had been analyzing it as a businessman, not as an enthusiast. The wild card I dont know the answer for is the FCC. To start, this discussion is regarding 7 and 9 only, I'm sure 4 and 20 will go full power as soon as they can. First off, while the RP transmitters may only cover 40% of the designated land area, they do cover 80% of the population in that area. Second, excluding enthusiasts I would be willing to bet 99% of HD viewers get their signal from cable or satellite. Third, those who want OTA have already put up their big antenna so all those people lose is an earlier date to swap out antennas. Analyzing all that, a few extra months of LP is not a big deal from a business standpoint.
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post #86 of 8923 Old 01-28-2007, 09:57 AM
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Originally Posted by longrider View Post

I had been analyzing it as a businessman, not as an enthusiast.

And that is the correct course for an analysis. TV is a business. Bottom line oriented businessmen resist change and do not expend funds on anything superfluous.

Hope I haven't annoyed the enthusiasts too much!

--- CHAS

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post #87 of 8923 Old 01-28-2007, 12:31 PM
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Quote:


TV is a business. Bottom line oriented businessmen resist change and do not expend funds on anything superfluous.

TV is a business, but it is subject to FCC rules and regulations. And it goes that bottom line thinking may not be achievable to its fullest because of, again, FCC rules and regulations. And I guess all of the other stations around the country that have been operating dual analog and digital facitilites expended funds superfluously?

One thing that we all seem to agree on is that channels 4 & 20 will probably be up and running as soon as they can. The reasoning - they are staying on their STA frequencies. One thing we really haven't considered is, if 4 & 20 go full power before 2-09 and 7 & 9 don't, what possible, plausible, believable, excuse can 7 & 9 come up with other than to not spend funds superfluously?
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post #88 of 8923 Old 01-28-2007, 01:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by milehighmike View Post

One thing that we all seem to agree on is that channels 4 & 20 will probably be up and running as soon as they can.

You mean in 12 to 15 months? And, they can't do jack chit if the tower or building isn't ready.

Quote:
Originally Posted by milehighmike View Post

The reasoning - they are staying on their STA frequencies. One thing we really haven't considered is, if 4 & 20 go full power before 2-09 and 7 & 9 don't, what possible, plausible, believable, excuse can 7 & 9 come up with other than to not spend funds superfluously?

Hmmm...These guys can probably figure it out. They could always look to DC for examples.

There could always be the discovery of the 'flying irradiated rat'. Yup, a genuine endangered species.

Or, there could always be a steel shortage. Yup, we need to use special China steel, and the plant in Qigihar can't meet demand.

Or, the predicted winds for the next 12 months preclude any tower work. So, geez fellas(FCC) there's nothing that we can do.

The only reason the FCC would deny an extension(or series of them) is that the idiots used the wrong form.
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post #89 of 8923 Old 01-28-2007, 01:45 PM
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I think it may even be easier than that - they will simply claim hardship. After all, those other stations have been able to spread their capital expenditures on equipment over several years, many continue on beyond the cutoff. Our per diem operating expense will be through the roof - much, much higher than anyone else since we can only spread the expenditure out over a few months. You'll drive us out of business!!!
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post #90 of 8923 Old 01-28-2007, 01:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by milehighmike View Post

T One thing we really haven't considered is, if 4 & 20 go full power before 2-09 and 7 & 9 don't, what possible, plausible, believable, excuse can 7 & 9 come up with other than to not spend funds superfluously?

Actually that's rather simple to answer. Aren't they all partners in this DTV consolidation enterprise? Will these partners try to undercut each other in this manner? They will wait until everyone is ready and turn on their brand new DTV stations together.

That's not saying they will stop trying to gain greater market share in the more usual ways.

--- CHAS

If it ain't broke, fix it till it is.
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