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post #14851 of 14949 Old 12-06-2018, 05:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aaronwt View Post
If this keeps up I might not have a choice but to drop ota, cable, and my TiVos and switch to one of the streaming services for broadcast content..
Be patient aaronwt, ATSC 3.0 should be coming to the rescue in a few years. The new broadcasting standard will be able to fit much more information into a 6 Mhz. channel, including UHD picture quality. So don't get rid of your antenna.

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post #14852 of 14949 Old 12-07-2018, 03:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Brian in CT View Post
Be patient aaronwt, ATSC 3.0 should be coming to the rescue in a few years. The new broadcasting standard will be able to fit much more information into a 6 Mhz. channel, including UHD picture quality. So don't get rid of your antenna.
It'll be the same thing as now but they will be able to squeeze more data/info in a station's bandwidth...
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post #14853 of 14949 Old 12-10-2018, 11:44 PM
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I thought the Steelers vs Raiders game looked pretty bad on Balt 45. Channel 13 still looks good though.
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post #14854 of 14949 Old 12-12-2018, 08:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keeper View Post
I thought the Steelers vs Raiders game looked pretty bad on Balt 45. Channel 13 still looks good though.
By the way, anyone know why live events on Balt 45 are behind DC 5? There seems to be at least a 30 second difference between the two stations. I called 45 and they were quite uncooperative about it.
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post #14855 of 14949 Old 12-13-2018, 11:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian in CT View Post
Be patient aaronwt, ATSC 3.0 should be coming to the rescue in a few years. The new broadcasting standard will be able to fit much more information into a 6 Mhz. channel, including UHD picture quality. So don't get rid of your antenna.
Will you need to buy a new TV or adapter box to use it?

See https://www.atsc.org/newsletter/atsc-3-0-where-we-stand
Quote:
ATSC 3.0 is likely to be incompatible with current broadcast systems
That doesn't say anything about current receiver systems, but if you look at that site, it sounds like they might be talking about something incompatible with current receivers too - though I'm not an engineer, and don't follow everything they are saying.

It would also imply a fairly slow roll-out, over many years, just as ATSC 1.0 did, because broadcasters won't want to lose too many of their existing customers.

And just imagine how people who bought current generation DVRs, devices for distributing TV through their homes, HD receivers and video projectors are going to feel about this. They'll feel a lot like people did when broadcasters switched from NTSC to ATSC. Except, now, a lot of people spent thousands or tens of thousands of dollars on what will soon be outdated home theater systems.

Oh well.

Let's hope that they don't create a standard (say, with a slightly higher video rate) that makes it hard to create a relatively inexpensive adapter box.

Last edited by MRG1; 12-13-2018 at 11:27 AM.
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post #14856 of 14949 Old 12-13-2018, 05:52 PM
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Originally Posted by MRG1 View Post
Will you need to buy a new TV or adapter box to use it?

Let's hope that they don't create a standard (say, with a slightly higher video rate) that makes it hard to create a relatively inexpensive adapter box.
You are right about compatibility MRG1, ATSC 1.0 and ATSC 3.0 are not compatible systems. The problem is that ATSC 1.0 has many drawbacks compared even to NTSC. Think of ATSC 1.0 as the lame, mercury containing, energy saving light bulbs that tried to replace incandescent lights (think NTSC), but are now being replaced by LED lights (think ATSC 3.0). ATSC 3.0 will enable 4k picture quality, and greatly improve many of ATSC 1.0's drawbacks with reception (like multipathing). This is their best shot in trying to save OTA TV.

If the FCC was smart, they would direct TV makers to have external tuners on all new ATSC 3.0 televisions. The tuners would be something like a thumb drive. Years from now, when they develop ATSC 3.0's successor, people would just pull out the old tuner, and put in a new one. I could dream, can't I?
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post #14857 of 14949 Old 12-16-2018, 09:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Brian in CT View Post
Think of ATSC 1.0 as the lame, mercury containing, energy saving light bulbs that tried to replace incandescent lights (think NTSC), but are now being replaced by LED lights (think ATSC 3.0).
(This is incidental, but LED light bulbs do not last as long as incandescents in some older fixtures designed for incandescents, especially if they look down, because the base gets very hot, and needs good ventilation. Also, they cannot handle much voltage fluctuation.)

Quote:
If the FCC was smart, they would direct TV makers to have external tuners on all new ATSC 3.0 televisions. The tuners would be something like a thumb drive. Years from now, when they develop ATSC 3.0's successor, people would just pull out the old tuner, and put in a new one. I could dream, can't I?
So, you want the external tuner to output an analog video signal, along the lines of a high res VGA or coax, right? (In case you don't know, there have been a few very high res VGA-cable and coax-cable based displays, used for things like medical and space imagery. Never became popular in the broader market.)

But the whole point of HDMI from the content providers perspective was that there was NO simple analog signal to record, and that they could instead provide copy protection. So I think what you want won't happen, at least not in the U.S.

Some of the earliest "HD-ready" TVs (I had one, for a while) couldn't input HD broadcast signals, but were able to input VGA and/or composite video at HD resolutions and speeds from an external tuner or set top box. But I guess they were killed because the analog signals would have been too easy to record.

BTW, is there really that much market for "4K" UHD video? From what I can tell, only a few people are buying 4K TVs, projectors, and movies - just like very few people bought the 3D stuff that I thought was much more cool, though I couldn't afford it either. (Though 3D VR headsets are a slight fad for the moment, despite the dorky appearance, perhaps because all you need is a $5 Google cardboard device to put around your smartphone.) True 3D TV seems all but dead, and I wonder if 4K will go the same way.

It's possible "4K" will be second quality compared to the "8K" (7680 x 4320 pixels, plus 22.2 audio channels, I think, though that sounds implausible) TV system that Japan has supposedly already started to broadcast. Maybe the true hi-res aficionados will buy the Japanese system instead, since the FCC isn't forcing broadcasters to switch to ATSC 3.0?

What really surprised me is that most of the video projectors I see being advertised for "Home Theater" use don't even do true 1080p resolution - I guess many of the buyers do not understand the difference between high resolution "support" and true "native" resolution, and spend thousands of dollars putting together fancy Home theater systems based around low-res displays, that they then proudly show off to their friends. If you don't have a display system that can take advantage of "4k", there may not be much point to the new ATSC 3.0 standard.
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post #14858 of 14949 Old 12-17-2018, 02:01 PM
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He never said he wanted an analog signal. He wants an up-gradable tuner.
Only a few are buying 4K TV's?
4K TV's are cheap and flying off the shelf's and account for nearly of all TV sales. Don't be so negative.
8K is going to be great! 8K Resolution can produce 4,000 nit peak brightness — a standard met by most film studios.
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Last edited by doctorwizz; 12-18-2018 at 04:25 AM.
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post #14859 of 14949 Old 12-17-2018, 05:44 PM
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Originally Posted by doctorwizz View Post
He never said he wanted an analog signal. He wants an up gradable tuner.
BINGO!

MRG1: Consumers will buy anything that is the "newest" or the "latest" in technology. In the mid-to-late aughts, people were starting to buy HD (1080p) televisions in huge numbers. Of the homes and businesses I visited with these HDTVs during that time, the vast majority had them connected to analog SD (480i) cable boxes. So they bought these nice TVs, but didn't bother to upgrade to an HD cable box. The aspect ratio was usually off, too.

I'm hoping the people today buying 4k UHD televisions won't have to wait too long to enjoy them to their fullest extent. I'm also hoping that the roll out of ATSC 3.0 will be part of that solution. That is if the FCC and broadcasters get their act together.
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post #14860 of 14949 Old 12-17-2018, 10:29 PM
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BTW, analog signals can be very, very good - e.g., in many respects, the top end analog image processing displays, with extremely high video resolutions, which were often driven by image processing systems with 3*12 bit DACs(4096 levels in each of Red, Green and Blue, or in another analog space, giving 68+ billion colors), were better than the HDMI displays that largely replaced them in the consumer market. For a small number of applications, where those things matter, it's possible that such things still exist, just as Daguerreotype-like photographic plates may still exist for a few ultra-high resolution markets, like some types of high precision optical astronomy.

If the government had actually wanted to be consumer friendly, rather than MPAA-friendly, they would have required all HD tuners to be able to output to component video or VGA outputs, so they could use existing monitors, and simple recording devices. (They could also have output to composite video, though none of the high resolution displays of the time that I personally was aware of used composite video.) HDMI is such a pain in the neck - I've had many HDMI cables fail, and even when they work, the connections are super-finicky.

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Originally Posted by doctorwizz View Post
He never said he wanted an analog signal. He wants an up gradable [sic] tuner.
Then what will they output?

I think all TVs eventually feed analog signals to their displays, one way or another. If the tuners output anything else (unless it is something like a simple digitized pixel sequence, which wouldn't be copy protected), especially if that anything else is something complex enough to incorporate copy protection, they must include an encoder to convert the decoded signal into that copy protected something else, and the TV has to include another decoder to convert it back to analog, which means, in both cases, more circuitry, and greater cost.

Of course, you could argue that is exactly the way HDMI 1 and HDMI 2 currently work - because hardware providers in the U.S. were more or less required by law to do it that way, at extra cost and inconvenience to consumers, because people like the MPAA lobbied for it. (Though, I think, if you watch TV through a PC browser, and that PC has a VGA port, it outputs an unencrypted analog signal through the VGA, which I suppose could be recorded with relatively simple hardware. Too bad most modern TVs don't accept VGA input, though, oddly enough, some projectors do, and there do exist VGA-to-HDMI convertors. For that matter, I used a Comcast/Motorolla set top box that output 1080p to unencrypted analog component video - until Comcast did a software upgrade that limited component video resolution, presumably to comply with legal restrictions. )

Anyway, if, indeed, people thoughtlessly flock to the latest gadgets, then why would a TV maker include an external tuner that could be replaced when the next standard becomes current? They make more profit by pushing people to buy more modern hardware every few years.

I went against the grain when I bought a non-smart 1080p HDTV on clearance, and used a succession of streaming devices to handle the smarts, on the cheap. It made economic sense to me - but it made no sense to the HDTV smart TV manufacturers. That's not what you as a consumer are "supposed" to do to keep the economy strong.

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post #14861 of 14949 Old 12-18-2018, 02:32 PM
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I see WNUV has moved from RF 40 to their repack RF 25. Don't know when it happened because I just discovered it the other day when I noticed I'd lost the station.
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post #14862 of 14949 Old 12-18-2018, 02:38 PM
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It happened in September.

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Comments are my own and not that of the FCC (my employer) or anyone else.

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post #14863 of 14949 Old 12-18-2018, 02:40 PM
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It happened in September.

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Then shouldn't somebody change the beginning note in this thread to reflect that instead of showing still showing RF 40?
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post #14864 of 14949 Old 12-31-2018, 05:10 PM
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So Verizon reaches an agreement with Disney to keep channels on air. Did not know they also had a dispute with TEGNA, owner of WUSA 9 locally. That channel is currently blocked out with message about TEGNA rejecting their offer. Did not know local channels could be affected like this. Hope it is settled before the weekend's NFL playoffs not to mention the Super Bowl in a month. Still want then to put the Weather Channel back on.
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post #14865 of 14949 Old 01-02-2019, 02:58 AM
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So Verizon reaches an agreement with Disney to keep channels on air. Did not know they also had a dispute with TEGNA, owner of WUSA 9 locally. That channel is currently blocked out with message about TEGNA rejecting their offer. Did not know local channels could be affected like this. Hope it is settled before the weekend's NFL playoffs not to mention the Super Bowl in a month. Still want then to put the Weather Channel back on.
It'll be interesting to see if WUSA and CBS get back on Verizon in time for the NFL playoffs.
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post #14866 of 14949 Old 01-03-2019, 04:08 AM
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@mdviewer25 : Are you able to pull in WJZ-TV (CBS) channel 13 from Baltimore?
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post #14867 of 14949 Old 01-03-2019, 04:52 PM
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@mdviewer25 : Are you able to pull in WJZ-TV (CBS) channel 13 from Baltimore?
Yes, I have an antenna hooked up to my TV so it didn't affect me, parents have old CRT so they couldn't see it. Doesn't matter now since it's back up and running on Verizon as of around 5pm. Verizon has to update their guide info because now it says "This channel has been removed"
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post #14868 of 14949 Old 01-07-2019, 09:26 AM
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[ Is anyone able to get a video signal for channel 45-4 (Stadium)? I can get audio, but no video. I have tried rescanning without any success on different TVs..
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post #14869 of 14949 Old 01-07-2019, 09:40 AM
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[ Is anyone able to get a video signal for channel 45-4 (Stadium)? I can get audio, but no video. I have tried rescanning without any success on different TVs..
Works fine for me on Tivo and HDHomerun
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post #14870 of 14949 Old 01-07-2019, 10:26 AM
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[ Is anyone able to get a video signal for channel 45-4 (Stadium)? I can get audio, but no video. I have tried rescanning without any success on different TVs..
If I remember right, Trip mentioned its MPEG4 video

edit: per rabbitears it is MPEG4 video (note the green thing between the physical channel and video type. Hover and it says MPEG4 video)

https://www.rabbitears.info/market.p...&callsign=wutb
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post #14871 of 14949 Old 01-08-2019, 03:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pclement View Post
[ Is anyone able to get a video signal for channel 45-4 (Stadium)? I can get audio, but no video. I have tried rescanning without any success on different TVs..
Quote:
Originally Posted by doctorwizz View Post
Works fine for me on Tivo and HDHomerun
Quote:
Originally Posted by unclehonkey View Post
If I remember right, Trip mentioned its MPEG4 video

edit: per rabbitears it is MPEG4 video (note the green thing between the physical channel and video type. Hover and it says MPEG4 video)

https://www.rabbitears.info/market.p...&callsign=wutb
Is it certain TV sets/tuners that have mpeg4 decoding? Our TV is a bit older, I'm assuming ours couldn't do mpeg4 video...

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post #14872 of 14949 Old 01-14-2019, 07:57 AM
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Is it certain TV sets/tuners that have mpeg4 decoding? Our TV is a bit older, I'm assuming ours couldn't do mpeg4 video...
Yes, that is the issue. When I scanned the OTA channels on my new 65" TCL I was able to view the MPEG4 video for 45.4. None off my older TV's can do MPEG4. Thanks for everyone's input.
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post #14873 of 14949 Old 01-28-2019, 09:09 PM
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TILT THE ANTENNA!

Aha! I figured out how to dramatically improve reception on my in-basement TV antenna, which even at the highest available point in my basement apartment, is just above street level.

I played around with orientation, and ended up tilting the antenna about 30 degrees upwards.

So - it isn't enough to experiment with antenna placement and horizontal orientation. You should also play with vertical orientation.

I don't know whether that means that TV signals diffract around houses, or whether I am taking advantage of atmospheric skip - but line of sight probably doesn't work very well for me, because cars, houses and trees are in the way.

But could this also be true for people with attic or roof-top antennas?

It probably helps that all the channels I can receive at my location, due to terrain, are in approximately one direction.

Last edited by MRG1; 01-28-2019 at 09:14 PM.
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post #14874 of 14949 Old 01-29-2019, 07:12 AM
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Originally Posted by MRG1 View Post
TILT THE ANTENNA!

Aha! I figured out how to dramatically improve reception on my in-basement TV antenna, which even at the highest available point in my basement apartment, is just above street level.

I played around with orientation, and ended up tilting the antenna about 30 degrees upwards.

So - it isn't enough to experiment with antenna placement and horizontal orientation. You should also play with vertical orientation.

I don't know whether that means that TV signals diffract around houses, or whether I am taking advantage of atmospheric skip - but line of sight probably doesn't work very well for me, because cars, houses and trees are in the way.

But could this also be true for people with attic or roof-top antennas?

It probably helps that all the channels I can receive at my location, due to terrain, are in approximately one direction.
Fairfax antenna tilted my roof antenna up too. They said it improved signals. Looks like it is at least a 20-30 degree tilt. Winegard HD7697
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post #14875 of 14949 Old 01-29-2019, 09:50 AM
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1. What station is display channel 3?

My (old Series 3) TIVO says it has display subchannels 1,2,3,4; and is on physical channel 42.

My TIVO thinks it is WHSV, but that is in Harrisonburg, VA, whereas everything else I get is in DC.

Also, https://www.whsv.com/content/news/IM...499430771.html makes it appear that WHSV is no longer on physical channel 42.

BTW, although it has a very strong signal, I do not see any picture or hear any sound.

2. The same is true of display channel 42, display subchannels 1-4, physical channel 42, though I sometimes see NHK World on 42-4, which suggests it is really WMPT - see https://www.rabbitears.info/market.p...&callsign=wmpt - in fact maybe display channel 3 is too, but just hasn't had its channel line-up finalized. Does anyone know what display channel 42 is?

3. How about display channel 15, display subchannels 1-6, physical channel 15? I'm guessing this is really part of WFDC, which also has physical channel 15, but am not sure. Again, very strong signal, but nothing I can see or hear.

4. It is such a pain that the display channels and display subchannels don't have to match the physical channels and subchannels - especially since a lot of TVs and DVRs only list the display channel, and there are duplicate display channels with different physical channels. What a mess!
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post #14876 of 14949 Old 01-29-2019, 10:02 AM
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Originally Posted by MRG1 View Post
TILT THE ANTENNA!...
Oops! It looks like all the channels I can see (the various subchannels from WRC, WTTG, WUSA, WFDC, WDCA, WMPT, WDDN, WHUT, whatever 42-4/42 is, WWTD, WDCW, WPXW, WJAL) are all from D.C., in the opposite direction from what I thought. The antenna is actually tilting downwards - maybe I am getting a reflection from the ground under the house...

(I'm using a ClearStream 4 antenna)
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post #14877 of 14949 Old 01-29-2019, 10:15 AM
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Oops! It looks like all the channels I receive are from D.C. in the opposite direction from what I thought. The antenna is actually tilting downwards - maybe I am getting a reflection from the ground under the house...

(I'm using a ClearStream 4 antenna)
LOL
Maybe I can turn mine 180 so it points down. No rotor though. They would not install one.

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post #14878 of 14949 Old 01-29-2019, 10:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MRG1 View Post
1. What station is display channel 3?

My (old Series 3) TIVO says it has display subchannels 1,2,3,4; and is on physical channel 42.

That's WHSV from the Front Royal translator. The Big Mountain transmitter is the one that changed channels; to my knowledge, the Front Royal transmitter is still on channel 42. Of course, you would never receive this due to WMPT.


Quote:
Originally Posted by MRG1 View Post
2. The same is true of display channel 42, display subchannels 1-4, physical channel 42, though I sometimes see NHK World on 42-4, which suggests it is really WMPT - see https://www.rabbitears.info/market.p...&callsign=wmpt - in fact maybe display channel 3 is too, but just hasn't had its channel line-up finalized. Does anyone know what display channel 42 is?

WVPY in Front Royal was RF21, display 42. Went off the air last year. In either case, it sounds like an error in the database.


Quote:
Originally Posted by MRG1 View Post
3. How about display channel 15, display subchannels 1-6, physical channel 15? I'm guessing this is really part of WFDC, which also has physical channel 15, but am not sure. Again, very strong signal, but nothing I can see or hear.

Not sure about this one. Sounds like a database error in any case.


Quote:
Originally Posted by MRG1 View Post
4. It is such a pain that the display channels and display subchannels don't have to match the physical channels and subchannels - especially since a lot of TVs and DVRs only list the display channel, and there are duplicate display channels with different physical channels. What a mess!

The bigger pain is that your TiVo is not doing a scan. If it did a scan, you would only have channels listed that you are able to receive, rather than a tangle of listings that may or may not be valid.


- Trip

N4MJC

Comments are my own and not that of the FCC (my employer) or anyone else.

RabbitEars

"Ignorance and prejudice and fear walk hand in hand..." - Rush "Witch Hunt"

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post #14879 of 14949 Old 01-29-2019, 06:00 PM
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Originally Posted by MRG1 View Post
I don't know whether that means that TV signals diffract around houses, or whether I am taking advantage of atmospheric skip - but line of sight probably doesn't work very well for me, because cars, houses and trees are in the way.
No, not atmospheric skip. You probably are still getting your D.C. stations via line of sight with maybe a bounce off a hard object or two. Non-terrain related obstructions like structures, cars, trees and such will interfere with or weaken a signal, but not necessarily kill it. Concrete/cinder block structures and a thick stand of trees WILL kill VHF and UHF signals respectively.

From your description, you must be within "rabbit ear" range (20 miles for ATSC 1.0) of the D.C. transmitters to be receiving them from an antenna in your basement. The signals must be strong enough to keep from pixelating every time a car goes by.

Just curious, why is your antenna in the basement and not on the roof or in the attic?
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post #14880 of 14949 Old 02-08-2019, 03:18 PM
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Hey all -- I don't understand what's happening with my reception of WUSA. Here's my TV Fool map. EDIT -- can't post a link but cut & paste this after putting in tvfool dot com -- /?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d9038e58427b5f 7


I have excellent reception from every other channel in the area (and from some Baltimore & Frederick stations) but I get zippy from channel 9 despite the tower being 9 miles away and line of sight.


My next door neighbor uses flat panel antennas and said she occasionally has it disappear but just has to rescan. I've rescanned five times since setting this up today and still get nothing.


I'm going to try a different antenna just for kicks, but anyone have any ideas?
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