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post #12391 of 13123 Old 08-31-2015, 03:46 PM
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After they switched to 720p for 11.1 and apparently updated Create to anamorphic widescreen, it seems as if everything is a bit fuzzier than it used to be. Prime used to look very good and rarely pixelated except during extreme changes. Now it's just generic SD.
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post #12392 of 13123 Old 09-05-2015, 03:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andyross63 View Post
After they switched to 720p for 11.1 and apparently updated Create to anamorphic widescreen, it seems as if everything is a bit fuzzier than it used to be. Prime used to look very good and rarely pixelated except during extreme changes. Now it's just generic SD.
Was 11.1 1080i before? AFAIK PBS chose 720p from the get-go. What was Prime before it was 480i?

11.1 comes through as clear as ever for me. I've been watching without my scaler, and 11.2 strikes me as surprisingly sharp for a 480i widescreen channel. Not as sharp as DVDs I've mastered at >9 kbps, but pretty darn good considering its share of the aggregate bit rate.

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post #12393 of 13123 Old 09-05-2015, 06:46 AM
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11.1 was originally 1080i, then went to 720p when they added subchannels, went back to 1080i for awhile, and then back to 720p a few months ago. Prime was always [email protected]:9, but it was near DVD quality before the recent changes. Watching Motorweek yesterday, I could sometimes see 'pulsing' in some static areas. A static area would slowly get fuzzier and fuzzier, then sharpen up, at a roughly 1-2 second rate.
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post #12394 of 13123 Old 09-05-2015, 09:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Speed Daemon View Post
AFAIK PBS chose 720p from the get-go.
Not sure if I'm understanding this correctly, but if I am, then it's wrong. PBS the network provides its affiliates with 1080i.

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post #12395 of 13123 Old 09-07-2015, 11:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andyross63 View Post
11.1 was originally 1080i, then went to 720p when they added subchannels, went back to 1080i for awhile, and then back to 720p a few months ago. Prime was always [email protected]:9, but it was near DVD quality before the recent changes. Watching Motorweek yesterday, I could sometimes see 'pulsing' in some static areas. A static area would slowly get fuzzier and fuzzier, then sharpen up, at a roughly 1-2 second rate.
That sounds like the same thing I see, look closely at a static area with white pixels
next to black and see if they are are moving in an up-right-down-left manner.

My display is 1080 at 1:1 and no enhancements
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post #12396 of 13123 Old 09-07-2015, 03:25 PM
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I have Comcast, and 16:9 SD is upconverted to 1080i by the cable box. I still don't think that has anything to do with the pulsing I saw.
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post #12397 of 13123 Old 09-07-2015, 07:19 PM
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I'm getting it OTA so it must be on their end. we're almost 10 years into digital, why can't they cant get it right?
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post #12398 of 13123 Old 09-07-2015, 08:26 PM
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I wonder if that's some weird compression artifact from the encoder. It shows up on their OTA signal, and it affects static regions of the image, particularly between frames. I think it probably does have something to do with the encoder. (And technically, we're almost 20 years into this DTV thing. And yes, we still have problems like this. Ah, for the days of NTSC, which came out right the first time!)
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post #12399 of 13123 Old 09-08-2015, 01:26 PM
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WTTW has recently changed over the way they get their feeds. All programming has to be sent from Jacksonville, Fla. up to the station now. This includes their live "C2N" at 7:00. How it is sent, I have no idea. It could be by satellite or some sort of dedicated lines. So-considering the distance, there has to be some sort of repeaters or trans-coding somewhere in the signal path. I'm fairly certain that this signal path is what is causing the video disruptions people are describing. Back to the live shows--"C2N" is a live production. But, it gets sent to Jacksonville first. Then is sent back here to the station/xmtr. This looonnnnggg path incurs a 16 sec. delay (approximately). As I understand it, 11 switched over to this way of getting/sending programming to save money. They figured it was cheaper to have Jacksonville originate the programming than to pay engineering to man their Master Control operation 24/7. Their MC is now "dark"--no longer in use. Their MC was just completed and put on-line ~10 years ago. It was built from the ground-up as a new HD operation. It wasn't a reconfigured upgrade to their SD MC. It is a real shame that all the man-hours it took to build the new MC (not to mention the cost) are now for naught.

Just some background info for those that may be interested.
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post #12400 of 13123 Old 09-08-2015, 03:25 PM
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I don't remember if it was posted, but is there any information about the rough bandwidth of the WTTW channels before and after the change?
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post #12401 of 13123 Old 09-09-2015, 11:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vidop View Post
WTTW has recently changed over the way they get their feeds. All programming has to be sent from Jacksonville, Fla. up to the station now. This includes their live "C2N" at 7:00. How it is sent, I have no idea. It could be by satellite or some sort of dedicated lines. So-considering the distance, there has to be some sort of repeaters or trans-coding somewhere in the signal path. I'm fairly certain that this signal path is what is causing the video disruptions people are describing. Back to the live shows--"C2N" is a live production. But, it gets sent to Jacksonville first. Then is sent back here to the station/xmtr. This looonnnnggg path incurs a 16 sec. delay (approximately). As I understand it, 11 switched over to this way of getting/sending programming to save money. They figured it was cheaper to have Jacksonville originate the programming than to pay engineering to man their Master Control operation 24/7. Their MC is now "dark"--no longer in use. Their MC was just completed and put on-line ~10 years ago. It was built from the ground-up as a new HD operation. It wasn't a reconfigured upgrade to their SD MC. It is a real shame that all the man-hours it took to build the new MC (not to mention the cost) are now for naught.

Just some background info for those that may be interested.
Wow. Thanks for the background, vidop. I saw their master control when it was just about done...what a room it was!

If it's going to Florida first, it's probably via fiber. Satellite time costs even more than people manning a master control room 24/7/365.
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post #12402 of 13123 Old 09-10-2015, 11:05 AM
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Originally Posted by sebenste View Post
Wow. Thanks for the background, vidop. I saw their master control when it was just about done...what a room it was!

If it's going to Florida first, it's probably via fiber. Satellite time costs even more than people manning a master control room 24/7/365.
That new MC was designed and built entirely by the in-house crew. No outside "consultants" or "contractors". It took ~a year to run the thousands of feet of cabling, make thousands of new connections and punch-downs. As you stated-"what a room it was". In a way, it looked like it could have been the "bridge" of a "Star Ship". I've attached two pictures of the area just before shut-down. This is the area the public saw. The "guts" (equipment room) was next to this, but out of sight from the main entrance.

You're most likely correct that it is a fiber-feed. Again, I'm not clear on that part.

Anyway, once again, it is truly sad this large, intricate construction is now abandoned.
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post #12403 of 13123 Old 09-10-2015, 04:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vidop View Post
WTTW has recently changed over the way they get their feeds. All programming has to be sent from Jacksonville, Fla. up to the station now. This includes their live "C2N" at 7:00. How it is sent, I have no idea. It could be by satellite or some sort of dedicated lines. So-considering the distance, there has to be some sort of repeaters or trans-coding somewhere in the signal path. I'm fairly certain that this signal path is what is causing the video disruptions people are describing. Back to the live shows--"C2N" is a live production. But, it gets sent to Jacksonville first. Then is sent back here to the station/xmtr. This looonnnnggg path incurs a 16 sec. delay (approximately). As I understand it, 11 switched over to this way of getting/sending programming to save money. They figured it was cheaper to have Jacksonville originate the programming than to pay engineering to man their Master Control operation 24/7. Their MC is now "dark"--no longer in use. Their MC was just completed and put on-line ~10 years ago. It was built from the ground-up as a new HD operation. It wasn't a reconfigured upgrade to their SD MC. It is a real shame that all the man-hours it took to build the new MC (not to mention the cost) are now for naught.

Just some background info for those that may be interested.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vidop View Post
That new MC was designed and built entirely by the in-house crew. No outside "consultants" or "contractors". It took ~a year to run the thousands of feet of cabling, make thousands of new connections and punch-downs. As you stated-"what a room it was". In a way, it looked like it could have been the "bridge" of a "Star Ship". I've attached two pictures of the area just before shut-down. This is the area the public saw. The "guts" (equipment room) was next to this, but out of sight from the main entrance.

You're most likely correct that it is a fiber-feed. Again, I'm not clear on that part.

Anyway, once again, it is truly sad this large, intricate construction is now abandoned.
Vidop: When I had my TV interview with them on a weather-related matter, I remember that layout. The first thing I said when I walked in the doors was "Mission Control Houston!". And I remember how proud those guys were. Thanks to automation and cutbacks, most small market and big market stations are now controlled somewhere else. WMAQ is controlled in New York. I think WBBM and WLS are local, as is WGN...but they also do WGN America, so that makes sense. WCIU is local, WFLD is largely remote by defacto of the Fox equipment. And WJYS-DT are a few computers sitting in a dark room until they add programs to it.

Automation is both good, and bad. At WREX-TV in Rockford, they are part of a cluster of 5 stations that one person watches. 99% of the time, since all but news is prerecorded, or regional/national like sports, this is fine. It's that 1% when mechanical failure occurs, or fiber gets cut. And then, look out...
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post #12404 of 13123 Old 09-10-2015, 04:50 PM
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Originally Posted by andyross63 View Post
11.1 was originally 1080i, then went to 720p when they added subchannels, went back to 1080i for awhile, and then back to 720p a few months ago. Prime was always [email protected]:9, but it was near DVD quality before the recent changes. Watching Motorweek yesterday, I could sometimes see 'pulsing' in some static areas. A static area would slowly get fuzzier and fuzzier, then sharpen up, at a roughly 1-2 second rate.
Interesting. I get 11.2 clear as a bell myself. I've just been transferring some recordings that I made, some from 11.2, some from 11.2 and some from Wisconsin PBS HD (720p), and it's tough to see which is which at a glance. A lot of that credit goes to my scaler, no doubt, but still.

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post #12405 of 13123 Old 09-10-2015, 05:00 PM
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Originally Posted by kc9hzn View Post
I wonder if that's some weird compression artifact from the encoder. It shows up on their OTA signal, and it affects static regions of the image, particularly between frames. I think it probably does have something to do with the encoder. (And technically, we're almost 20 years into this DTV thing. And yes, we still have problems like this. Ah, for the days of NTSC, which came out right the first time!)
That's long-GOP encoding. PBS has been updating their distribution workflow to use the H.264 AVC encoding protocol, replacing MPEG-2. One "feature" of AVC is long-GOP.

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post #12406 of 13123 Old 09-11-2015, 01:27 PM
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Vidop: When I had my TV interview with them on a weather-related matter, I remember that layout. The first thing I said when I walked in the doors was "Mission Control Houston!". And I remember how proud those guys were. Thanks to automation and cutbacks, most small market and big market stations are now controlled somewhere else. WMAQ is controlled in New York. I think WBBM and WLS are local, as is WGN...but they also do WGN America, so that makes sense. WCIU is local, WFLD is largely remote by defacto of the Fox equipment. And WJYS-DT are a few computers sitting in a dark room until they add programs to it.

Automation is both good, and bad. At WREX-TV in Rockford, they are part of a cluster of 5 stations that one person watches. 99% of the time, since all but news is prerecorded, or regional/national like sports, this is fine. It's that 1% when mechanical failure occurs, or fiber gets cut. And then, look out...
If I may ask about your weather-related interview--were you on C2N for an interview about a storm or other weather phenomena? Or, was it for a segment for some other program?

Yes-automation can be good and bad. It is usually less expensive. But, if something goes haywire, automation usually doesn't have the "smarts" to get out of a bad situation. And, if you have some live event (where the duration is unknown) you still need to have a person at the helm to make decisions/adjustments.
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post #12407 of 13123 Old 09-12-2015, 10:10 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Vidop View Post
If I may ask about your weather-related interview--were you on C2N for an interview about a storm or other weather phenomena? Or, was it for a segment for some other program?

Yes-automation can be good and bad. It is usually less expensive. But, if something goes haywire, automation usually doesn't have the "smarts" to get out of a bad situation. And, if you have some live event (where the duration is unknown) you still need to have a person at the helm to make decisions/adjustments.
It was on Chicago for a storm-related program. But, yes, from here on out...a fiber outage or a catastrophic event might yield us a Windows 7 screen with icons.
I've seen that happen on a few low-power stations. Coming to a full-power near you?

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post #12408 of 13123 Old 09-12-2015, 12:47 PM
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I wonder if that's some weird compression artifact from the encoder. It shows up on their OTA signal, and it affects static regions of the image, particularly between frames. I think it probably does have something to do with the encoder. (And technically, we're almost 20 years into this DTV thing. And yes, we still have problems like this. Ah, for the days of NTSC, which came out right the first time!)
guess I'll watch the network shows on WYIN from now on, those square dancing pixels are just too distracting.
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post #12409 of 13123 Old 09-12-2015, 10:32 PM
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Letterbox inside letterbox inside letterbox. Nice going, WYCC - way to show a picture much smaller than necessary.

Flicks? Here's my collection. And I've seen a lot, too.
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post #12410 of 13123 Old 09-12-2015, 10:56 PM
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Letterbox inside letterbox inside letterbox. Nice going, WYCC - way to show a picture much smaller than necessary.
Are you receiving WYCC via OTA or cable/satellite? It's my weakest OTA channel & I'd like to improve things if possible.
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post #12411 of 13123 Old 09-13-2015, 05:31 AM
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I'm pretty sure that's the way WYCC is receiving it from MHz Worldview. MHz provides a 16:9 picture to affiliates, as far as I'm aware.

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post #12412 of 13123 Old 09-14-2015, 10:19 AM
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Okay guys posting again,

http://imgur.com/MuC5I8F


That's my TVFool.

Whats the best config i should go for!
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post #12413 of 13123 Old 09-14-2015, 11:46 AM
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There was a Cubs game on 9.4 yesterday afternoon, same as 9.1 except it was one inning behind. it disappeared when the game ended.
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post #12414 of 13123 Old 09-14-2015, 12:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Mike99 View Post
Are you receiving WYCC via OTA or cable/satellite? It's my weakest OTA channel & I'd like to improve things if possible.
I'm getting this via Comcast.

Flicks? Here's my collection. And I've seen a lot, too.
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post #12415 of 13123 Old 09-14-2015, 02:11 PM
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Need help with CBS guys, here's my tvfool report:

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...8e0378c8ca93a3

I have a Channel Master 4228HD antenna, inside the house. Also got an amp.

I've connected it to an HDHomeRun Connect tuner:

https://www.silicondust.com/products...merun-connect/

I'm getting all the channels, bu CBS

It shows signal strength of 70-80%, but no quality, and CBS doesn't show up in channel scan.

I thought the CM4228HD should be good enough to get the CBS VHF ch. 12, but looks like it doesn't.

I live in Mill Creek in Geneva, 60134.

Any ideas?

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post #12416 of 13123 Old 09-14-2015, 04:36 PM - Thread Starter
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Need help with CBS guys, here's my tvfool report:

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...8e0378c8ca93a3

I have a Channel Master 4228HD antenna, inside the house. Also got an amp.

I've connected it to an HDHomeRun Connect tuner:

https://www.silicondust.com/products...merun-connect/

I'm getting all the channels, bu CBS

It shows signal strength of 70-80%, but no quality, and CBS doesn't show up in channel scan.

I thought the CM4228HD should be good enough to get the CBS VHF ch. 12, but looks like it doesn't.

I live in Mill Creek in Geneva, 60134.

Any ideas?
You should be getting it with that kind of signal strength. There might be something causing interference. LED lights and a DSL Internet router caused an interference problem with mine a long time ago. Listen to a portable AM radio. If you are getting a buzzing noise, it could be interfering with WBBM.

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post #12417 of 13123 Old 09-14-2015, 05:07 PM
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I see. There are LED lights near the antenna, but I think they were off when I did the scanning.

I might order a CM-7777 amp, I read in people's reviews that it allowed them to receive WBBM.

Also, I placed the antenna inside, in the kitchen, on ground floor. Maybe the attic will be more suitable and allow me receive WBBM? Just trying to keep it simple...

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post #12418 of 13123 Old 09-14-2015, 05:40 PM
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I might order a CM-7777 amp,
Wrong move... You NEED a VHF antenna and, if you should need a pre-amp the 7777 is a terrible choice for your locale (it's too much gain). Do yourself a favor and spend a mere $25 on the RCA preamp (it's virtually an electronic clone of the "old" CM7778). If you have a Menards nearby, they carry it in store.

For an inexpensive high-VHF antenna, look at the $20 unit from MCM (http://www.mcmelectronics.com/produc...-2475-/30-2475)
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post #12419 of 13123 Old 09-15-2015, 01:16 AM
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Wrong move... You NEED a VHF antenna and, if you should need a pre-amp the 7777 is a terrible choice for your locale (it's too much gain). Do yourself a favor and spend a mere $25 on the RCA preamp (it's virtually an electronic clone of the "old" CM7778). If you have a Menards nearby, they carry it in store.
Is it one of these shown on Menards website?
https://www.menards.com/main/electri...24234174018314

https://www.menards.com/main/electri...24234174018314
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post #12420 of 13123 Old 09-15-2015, 07:54 AM
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Originally Posted by ProjectSHO89 View Post
Wrong move... You NEED a VHF antenna and, if you should need a pre-amp the 7777 is a terrible choice for your locale (it's too much gain). Do yourself a favor and spend a mere $25 on the RCA preamp (it's virtually an electronic clone of the "old" CM7778). If you have a Menards nearby, they carry it in store.

For an inexpensive high-VHF antenna, look at the $20 unit from MCM (http://www.mcmelectronics.com/produc...-2475-/30-2475)
Thanks for the info!!!

Yes, I have a Menard's 3mi away, can you point me to the exact pre-amp model you speak of?

I've got a very strong signal, with the antenna inside the house, maybe 2ft off the ground, but WBBM is elusive, HDHomeRun Connect shows signal, but there's no quality and no picture.

The CM-4228HD says it's good for the high-VHF range, but for some reason I'm having a hard time with reception, maybe what I'm seeing is just reflections off other houses nearby.

I should try placing the antenna outside, see if it does any good with WBBM.

Thanks again!

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