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post #31 of 142 Old 12-03-2015, 06:35 PM
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Any more pictures from members that have a sample?
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post #32 of 142 Old 12-03-2015, 07:37 PM
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Any more pictures from members that have a sample?
I just received my beta screen and will try to get pics up this weekend.
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post #33 of 142 Old 12-05-2015, 11:51 AM
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Looking forward to your comments; my sample was too small to appreciate the screen material. I was able to stretch it nicely on a piece of plywood.
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I wish I had more time to enjoy my gear
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post #34 of 142 Old 12-09-2015, 09:35 AM
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I just received my beta screen and will try to get pics up this weekend.
Did you have time to take some pictures?
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post #35 of 142 Old 12-09-2015, 11:46 AM
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Did you have time to take some pictures?
I will very soon, I promise. It has been crazy at the end of our quarter (college), with meetings and grading, and family/holiday commitments.
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post #36 of 142 Old 12-13-2015, 02:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Did you cop a failing grade?

Or (...ulp) did we?

JKA. In your own time.

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post #37 of 142 Old 12-14-2015, 12:45 AM
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Hi mm i watched your last 2 videos you put up on youtube, What projector are you using and what settings? Is there any way to show the same scene with light gray or white screen over half of the dea screen?

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post #38 of 142 Old 02-09-2016, 11:27 AM
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Just want to say real quick that I've really enjoyed your YouTube videos and thumbs up'd several of my favorites. Thanks for honest reviews and demos! Very excited about this product.

Thanks!
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post #39 of 142 Old 02-09-2016, 04:59 PM - Thread Starter
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Just want to say real quick that I've really enjoyed your YouTube videos and thumbs up'd several of my favorites. Thanks for honest reviews and demos! Very excited about this product.
Thank you.

And we just keep tying to improve all the time.

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post #40 of 142 Old 02-11-2016, 06:13 AM - Thread Starter
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Some Dark Energy vs Carls ALR Screen material comparisons

The following shots were taken in appreciable ambient light. The Carl's ALR sample is both sizable and placed to no disadvantage.

As shown...the difference in ALR performance and overall image quality is extreme, and not to be considered as being much in the way as a justification for spending less.










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post #41 of 142 Old 02-11-2016, 01:15 PM
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Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post
The following shots were taken in appreciable ambient light. The Carl's ALR sample is both sizable and placed to no disadvantage.

As shown...the difference in ALR performance and overall image quality is extreme, and not to be considered as being much in the way as a justification for spending less.
An excellent group of comparisons showing that the Carl'sALR is a little ways brighter than DE, but also a noticably lighter shade of grey in ambient light.
The lighter shade also means the CarlsALR will be even more bright for off-axis viewing by compare, but the DE should definitely keep the edge for ambient-light use in more standard seating arrangements for folks that don't need the additional brightness of the Carl's.

As a side-benefit, this comparison also allows indirect comparison between CarlsALR and the Elite5D you showed earlier.

Thank you very much for taking the time to show these comparisons with so many different materials.

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post #42 of 142 Old 02-11-2016, 02:14 PM
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The shade of the CineGrey 5D & Carls are very close, but the gain of the CineGrey 5D is obviously greater then the Carls ALR . Both materials are more like a dark silver instead of a more agressive dark gray, which is mainly attributed to greater ALR performance.

Soon we will demonstrate the New Dark Energy Aurora in comparison to these higher gain materials. The Aurora will most certainly achieve sufficient brightness while still retaining superior ALR performance.

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post #43 of 142 Old 02-11-2016, 04:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ftoast View Post
An excellent group of comparisons showing that the Carl'sALR is a little ways brighter than DE, but also a noticably lighter shade of grey in ambient light.
The lighter shade also means the CarlsALR will be even more bright for off-axis viewing by compare, but the DE should definitely keep the edge for ambient-light use in more standard seating arrangements for folks that don't need the additional brightness of the Carl's.


Anyone with any ability to judge the difference shown would never consider the Carl's ALR material as even to be considered as being a viable choice when matched against DEA in any such ambient light environment, on or off axis. The Carl's ALR material will not somehow magically start to perform better off axis...if anything it's performance on-axis should be stronger, but is not and therein it's off-axis performance will never exceed the on-axis level.

Brightness is not nor should be the sole criteria in a ALR screen, although it clearly is important. The examples shown clearly have the Carl's falling far, far short of effectiveness at every level adjudged to be worthy of a screen calling itself "Ambient Light Resistant" (or Rejection) The DEA retains both deeper Blacks and incredibly superior Color dynamics....with both the above also showing "Brighter" where brightness counts most... ie:image resolving

We can and most likely will include a couple shots showing both materials at what can be considered a respectable degree of off-axis, but this seeming fixation of trying to use / show such lighter shaded examples as looking brighter (lighter) and attempting to claim such being a justification of having lessor performance on-axis is quite a improper way to convey any reasonable degree of judgement as far as determining the overall worthiness of such a product.

One very important thing to consider in all of this is just how DARK DEA's surface is while in a static mode, yet how much brightness and clarity of image it delivers under projection in conditions that leave virtually all other ALR Screens of any shade or composition severely wanting. And not to be overlooked is the fact that while being so dark, and still showing such a clear, bright and dynamic image, it's off-axis is still superior to any other ALR screen that comes close to sharing the same properties.

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post #44 of 142 Old 02-11-2016, 06:19 PM
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Ftoast: I know you have had a few discrepancies when it came to our gain measurements & I would like to explain where those estimates come from. Here is a picture of the Dark Energy Abyss screen with a sample of the ISF Certified Draper MS1000X 1.0 gain material covering the right half of the white squared icon. You can clearly see the DEA is brighter then the ISF 1.0 sample. That gave us a good indication that the DEA is at least a 1.1-1.2 gain.
Hopefully that evidence gives a more precise measurement of the DEAs gain.





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post #45 of 142 Old 02-12-2016, 05:35 AM
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Ftoast: I know you have had a few discrepancies when it came to our gain measurements & I would like to explain where those estimates come from. Here is a picture of the Dark Energy Abyss screen with a sample of the ISF Certified Draper MS1000X 1.0 gain material covering the right half of the white squared icon. You can clearly see the DEA is brighter then the ISF 1.0 sample. That gave us a good indication that the DEA is at least a 1.1-1.2 gain.
Hopefully that evidence gives a more precise measurement of the DEAs gain.

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The Draper MS1000X actually measures at best 0.9gain and has a blue-push.
I'm a little concerned that the DE sample appears colder than an already cold sample, but some of that could be the camera exaggerating things.

In person does the mx1000x look warmer than DE?
If so, do you have a way available to get a warmer, more neutral color for DE?

Have you considered simply using a known and actually measured (by someone other than the manufacturer) matte-white surface to make rough gain estimates? You could just get a sample of Stewart SnowMatte or StudioTek100 and have both accurate gain representation and accurately neutral color for a couple dollars.

Likewise, you can get a surprisingly solid lux-meter around $40-70, cheaper than a sprayer and something you can use again and again to measure the gain compared to the Stewart sample at various degrees on and off-axis to be able to provide a real gain-slope measurement.
Granted it's another $40-70 for a meter, a couple dollars for a protractor and string, and a few dollars for a Stewart sample..but it's an overall small investment that you'll be able to use for every screen you build to show professional results just like the big manufacturers..except more accurate as long as you're.honest.

At least get a true 1.0gain white sample for gain comparison.
If nobody available on the team happens to really know something particular, ask for help on AVS or break-out your inner researcher. It took me literally 30seconds to find the mx1000x information, so the research isn't necessarily slow or difficult.

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Quick <$250 dedicated black-fabric theater room "A store that sells blinds can help your picture more than a store that sells projectors many times." -bud16415

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post #46 of 142 Old 02-12-2016, 09:06 AM
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The manufacturers specifications for the ISF Certified MS1000X is a 1.0 gain.
I know different setups & conditions can assist in slightly different results when it comes to gain, but whos to say which one is right & which one is wrong. Its tough to judge the gain of an exceedingly dark ALR material compared to a white material. They both reproduce colors & an image quite differently, but I think we can both agree that the DEA produces more then sufficient brightness compared to its exceedingly dark shade.

As far as color accuracy goes.. im pretty certain the guys at ISF wouldnt put their stamp of approval on a material if it couldn't reproduce colors accurately. We designed the DEA around our ISF comparison materials to make sure our product remained as accurate as possible.
We are in fact working hard towards third party testing so we are able to offer the most accurate and precise specifications possible.

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post #47 of 142 Old 02-12-2016, 10:18 AM
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The manufacturers specifications for the ISF Certified MS1000X is a 1.0 gain.
And like many manufacturer spec claims it has been found to be false.

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I know different setups & conditions can assist in slightly different results when it comes to gain, but whos to say which one is right & which one is wrong.
The Stewart is both certified AND consistently measured at 1.0gain and color-neutral by every 3rd party who have metered it.
Simple visual comparison shows the Stewart to be brighter and less cold than the ms1000x which backs up the measurements.

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Its tough to judge the gain of an exceedingly dark ALR material compared to a white material.
Not when the comparison is done on-axis and in a dark room.
Measuring or simply looking on-axis isn't difficult, so doing it correctly is also not difficult.

It's actually EASIER with a matte-white since the known sample will stay at a consistent brightness which makes matching it up with the ALR screen's brightest point even easier.

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They both reproduce colors & an image quite differently, but I think we can both agree that the DEA produces more then sufficient brightness compared to its exceedingly dark shade.
That completely depends on the gain/brightness needs of the user.
MississippiMan used to talk down upon ALR screens below 1.0gain as well, so obviously it depends on the user preferences.

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As far as color accuracy goes.. im pretty certain the guys at ISF wouldnt put their stamp of approval on a material if it couldn't reproduce colors accurately. We designed the DEA around our ISF comparison materials to make sure our product remained as accurate as possible.
The ISF doesn't work like you are assuming it does. It may have approved the ms, but it still falls short in accuracy compared to the Stewart to a visible degree.

Think of it like tuning an instrument. The ISF says "A" is 440Hz and anything from 438hz-442Hz is within spec to get their approval..but taking an approved example which measured 438Hz and using it to tune by can get you a result between 436hz-440Hz while still APPEARING correct according to the skewed example. The two instruments may sound alright together, but the second one has a roughly 50/50chance of sounding off-key to a bigger band.

The ms is already cold enough to barely be within ISF spec..if your screen is colder it will be outside of spec.
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We are in fact working hard towards third party testing so we are able to offer the most accurate and precise specifications possible.
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That is great news. Better than visual sampled rough estimates and even potentially better than 1st-party measurement in many cases.

Still, with all the 3rd parties who have fallen through for this over the past several months, getting a real 1.0gain and truly neutral comparison sample would give more accurate visual comparison for you folks.

Or at least consider warning folks that your current comparison standard for gain isn't actually a known 1.0gain as claimed in the past, but instead a visually dimmer and colder light-grey ALR sample.

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post #48 of 142 Old 02-12-2016, 11:05 AM
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MississippiMan has repeatedly stated our gain measurements are indeed estimates & should be percieved as such.

If you feel that a 1.1-1.2 estimate to be slightly ambitious.. how would you feel about a 1.0-1.1 estimate in comparison to the MS1000X? If you in fact believe the MS1000X to be only a .9 gain, instead of it specified 1.0, would you feel confident that the DEA is at least a 1.0-1.1 in comparison? Judging from that image... I would feel confident in saying that. Just be on the safe side I would gladly even reduce the 1.1 estimate to a solid 1.0.

Hopefully that would give everyone an accurate gain number for the DEA so they can calculate their home theaters accordingly as they wait for 3rd party testing.





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post #49 of 142 Old 02-12-2016, 01:50 PM
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MississippiMan has repeatedly stated our gain measurements are indeed estimates & should be percieved as such.

If you feel that a 1.1-1.2 estimate to be slightly ambitious.. how would you feel about a 1.0-1.1 estimate in comparison to the MS1000X? If you in fact believe the MS1000X to be only a .9 gain, instead of it specified 1.0, would you feel confident that the DEA is at least a 1.0-1.1 in comparison? Judging from that image... I would feel confident in saying that. Just be on the safe side I would gladly even reduce the 1.1 estimate to a solid 1.0.

Hopefully that would give everyone an accurate gain number for the DEA so they can calculate their home theaters accordingly as they wait for 3rd party testing.

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Some of the comparisons shown around have DE looking anywhere from a tiny bit to a decent ways dimmer than 1.0gain..while others have it looking brighter than some sample screens where it looks dimmer in other showings against the same samples (notably the SI samples). A true matte-white 1.0gain sample in a dark room doesn't make those problems because it is unaffected by angles..if the DE shows to be brighter in those conditions, it's basically foolproof and assured to be over 1.0peak-gain at that point.

The MS1000x starts dimmer than a known 1.0gain screen and will dim even further as you move off-axis, which also makes off-axis dimming of the DE appear to be less than it really is because the comparison screen will dim as well where a true 1.0gain white would not.

I don't remember if the comparison sample being used to judge by was originally mentioned several months ago, if it was this is partly my own fault for not noticing all of this faster. I don't believe the ms1000x is a good choice of sampling material to use going forward if you have a chance at getting a cheap Stewart sample mailed or something similar enough.

Barring that (if it's not really possible at this time for whatever reason) and until testing is done, I would consider it fairly safe to follow the users' opinions of it appearing around 0.9gain UNLESS you're talking about a newer, brighter version that's not yet in any users' hands..then a ~1.0gain estimate could totally make sense WITH the mention that the comparison sample isn't actually a known 1.0gain white, until it is.

I'm mostly being picky because it was a fast, easy, and cheap mistake to avoid in the first place. I'd personally say the difference in 1.0 or 0.9 or 1.1 gain is fairly small and that getting the seating+projector+screen all aligned more ideally will make a much bigger difference with any dark ALR screen than a 10% difference in peak-gain.

I'm assuming it's safer to keep whoever you're getting to review/measure this stuff anonymous, but if there's any semi-solid estimates on dates (weeks, months) when they might be expected that'd be something for nerds like me to look forward to.

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post #50 of 142 Old 02-12-2016, 04:48 PM
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The lightness/darkness of the screen is a little strange with my DEA sample. With ambient light, other samples can have better blacks than the DEA, but as it gets darker in the room, then the DEA looks to have better blacks.

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post #51 of 142 Old 02-12-2016, 06:02 PM
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What exactly were you comparing it too? We sent out samples of the DEA flex because we wanted the sample to represent what the finish product would look & feel like. That in turn made the sample exceedingly difficult to test, due to its inability to lay flat without being properly stretched over a frame.This is very important while testing ALR screens. The flexible nature of the DEA flex sample made it very susceptible to waves & ripples that can easily skew the performance of the sample. Not sure if this contributed to your results, but we are in the process of sending out samples of the new redesigned Abyss on a flatter more regid substrate.

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post #52 of 142 Old 02-12-2016, 06:54 PM
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Ftoast:
All the references I made including the recent image come from our redesigned brighter Abyss. All the prior images & videos portray a slightly dimmer Abyss version that we felt bordered between a .9-1.0. I feel very confident that the newest Abyss is at least 1.0 or greater & in the coming months we will be demonstrating more of its performance.

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post #53 of 142 Old 02-14-2016, 02:13 PM
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That is nice to here! I like that it has brighter gain than the beta version.

I just officially ordered the DEA with a nice frame. Very excited and will provide a review in time.

Thanks!
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post #54 of 142 Old 02-14-2016, 07:43 PM
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Im excited for you...Mine looks like a 100" HDTV Flatscreen & the ALR performance is insane.

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post #55 of 142 Old 02-14-2016, 08:57 PM
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Here is the shade difference between the DEA & Carls ALR. This obviously makes a huge difference in ALR Performance.

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post #56 of 142 Old 02-15-2016, 05:14 AM
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Here is the shade difference between the DEA & Carls ALR. This obviously makes a huge difference in ALR Performance.

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Which version of DE is that?

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Simple $25-40 DIY black/dark-grey ambient-light rejecting screen, grab two things from a local store..mix..roll..done.
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post #57 of 142 Old 02-15-2016, 06:36 AM
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New Abyss

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Stephen McGuire
Dark Energy Screens
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post #58 of 142 Old 02-15-2016, 05:06 PM
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Nice.
Any chance of also getting a photo with the flash off and/or the light coming from the side rather than the front/viewer position to show them both in a more optimal setup?
This should darken the Carl's a little and the DE quite a lot, and better show their maximum potential.

Easy $25 DIY black (or any color) ALR paint +$40-$50sprayer screen mix smooth/clean and very easy to learn spraying with little/no mess.
Simple $25-40 DIY black/dark-grey ambient-light rejecting screen, grab two things from a local store..mix..roll..done.
Quick <$250 dedicated black-fabric theater room "A store that sells blinds can help your picture more than a store that sells projectors many times." -bud16415
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post #59 of 142 Old 02-16-2016, 11:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stephen77 View Post
Here is the shade difference between the DEA & Carls ALR. This obviously makes a huge difference in ALR Performance.

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showing screenshots with lights off can provide gain estimates, you can even show viewing angles with lights off to show the difference better.
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post #60 of 142 Old 02-16-2016, 01:37 PM
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Looks like ive opened the request floodgates...We have since moved on from the Carls in preparation for other demonstrations that we will soon be posting, but we did take a couple more pictures from the first shoot that we didnt post. The picture below is probably the best one we had which shows the difference in gain between the DEA & Carls. They are actually very close & it was a little difficult to catch the difference on camera.. especially in the dark . We didnt post the other images because it was nearly impossible to tell the materials apart in a complete dark environment. The Carls is probably only about 10% brighter which I find very impressive seeing as how dark the DEA is in comparison.

Carls sample "in total darkness" covers the right half of the white box...Its even difficult to make it out in this image with it zoomed in.


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Last edited by stephen77; 02-16-2016 at 03:51 PM.
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