Master List of currently available 4k HDR titles, will be updated often. - Page 450 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #13471 of 29113 Old 02-19-2017, 12:54 PM
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Originally Posted by umenon View Post
Can one of the smart guys in the group explain to me how a Bluray title that is released in HDR-10 ... is made available in HDR-DV by streaming services like VUDU etc. How true would the HDR-DV experience be compared to HDR-10. If streaming services are able to convert HDR-10 to HDR-DV ... and if you are someone who values Fidelity in media (unfiltered. "what the director intended" experience) does it not cast doubt about the nature of this HDR medium? Just asking.
I don't know for sure but I believe that the studio has 2 encodes, one for HDR-10 and another for DV so there is no converting going on. I'm sure someone here will chime in with more information.
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post #13472 of 29113 Old 02-19-2017, 01:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by umenon View Post
Can one of the smart guys in the group explain to me how a Bluray title that is released in HDR-10 ... is made available in HDR-DV by streaming services like VUDU etc. How true would the HDR-DV experience be compared to HDR-10. If streaming services are able to convert HDR-10 to HDR-DV ... and if you are someone who values Fidelity in media (unfiltered. "what the director intended" experience) does it not cast doubt about the nature of this HDR medium? Just asking.
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Originally Posted by lujan View Post
I don't know for sure but I believe that the studio has 2 encodes, one for HDR-10 and another for DV so there is no converting going on. I'm someone here will chime in with more information.

This is correct, they are 2 totally seperate grades when it comes to streaming. And im pretty sure the same people do both grades.

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post #13473 of 29113 Old 02-19-2017, 01:55 PM
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Originally Posted by umenon View Post
Can one of the smart guys in the group explain to me how a Bluray title that is released in HDR-10 ... is made available in HDR-DV by streaming services like VUDU etc. How true would the HDR-DV experience be compared to HDR-10. If streaming services are able to convert HDR-10 to HDR-DV ... and if you are someone who values Fidelity in media (unfiltered. "what the director intended" experience) does it not cast doubt about the nature of this HDR medium? Just asking.
DV and HDR10 are based on the same EOTF called Perceptual Quantizer (PQ). HDR10 is basically the stripped down free version of DV. DV is 12 bit rec.2020 with dynamic metadata. HDR10 is 10 bit rec.2020 with static metadata.

Vudu is not converting HDR10 to DV. The movie is mastered at the highest quality. The the filmmakers create multiple versions called deliverables for whatever source it will be played on: standard theatrical, Dolby theatrical, DV Vudu, HDR10 disc, etc...

As for the question of fidelity to the director's intent, then DV is what you want. Dynamic metadata means the image on your screen, no matter its capabilities, is adjusted according to however they mastered it originally. The filmmaker is in control. HDR10 with its static metadata means the image is adjusted by the screen manufacturer's own conversion techniques and technologies. The TV maker is in control.

In my opinion, once UHD Blu-rays start releasing DV encoded discs sometime this year, those will be the best quality in terms of fidelity. Right now you have trade-offs between Vudu's DV mastering with higher quality dynamic metadata but streaming quality/bandwidth issues. Versus UBD's higher bandwidth and resolution quality but HDR10's static metadata which requires a lot of calibration and adjusting.
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post #13474 of 29113 Old 02-19-2017, 02:03 PM
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Has anyone else noticed that Google Play's prior UHD offerings for purchase are now only offered for rent? I had several on my wishlist that are now showing only available to rent instead of purchase. I wonder if they mistakenly offered for purchase when the studio only wanted them to rent them?

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post #13475 of 29113 Old 02-19-2017, 03:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by puddy77 View Post
DV and HDR10 are based on the same EOTF called Perceptual Quantizer (PQ). HDR10 is basically the stripped down free version of DV. DV is 12 bit rec.2020 with dynamic metadata. HDR10 is 10 bit rec.2020 with static metadata.

Vudu is not converting HDR10 to DV. The movie is mastered at the highest quality. The the filmmakers create multiple versions called deliverables for whatever source it will be played on: standard theatrical, Dolby theatrical, DV Vudu, HDR10 disc, etc...

As for the question of fidelity to the director's intent, then DV is what you want. Dynamic metadata means the image on your screen, no matter its capabilities, is adjusted according to however they mastered it originally. The filmmaker is in control. HDR10 with its static metadata means the image is adjusted by the screen manufacturer's own conversion techniques and technologies. The TV maker is in control.

In my opinion, once UHD Blu-rays start releasing DV encoded discs sometime this year, those will be the best quality in terms of fidelity. Right now you have trade-offs between Vudu's DV mastering with higher quality dynamic metadata but streaming quality/bandwidth issues. Versus UBD's higher bandwidth and resolution quality but HDR10's static metadata which requires a lot of calibration and adjusting.
Thanks for the detailed explanation. Since we are talking metadata ... would the upcoming Bluray releases be able to accommodate metadata for both HDR10 and DV on a single disc... for backward compatibility with older players like the Samsung 8500?
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post #13476 of 29113 Old 02-19-2017, 04:10 PM
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Originally Posted by umenon View Post
Thanks for the detailed explanation. Since we are talking metadata ... would the upcoming Bluray releases be able to accommodate metadata for both HDR10 and DV on a single disc... for backward compatibility with older players like the Samsung 8500?
Yes. If DV is on a disc, HDR10 is mandatory as the base layer. So the discs will be backwards compatible with all HDR10 players and displays.
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post #13477 of 29113 Old 02-19-2017, 04:11 PM
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Originally Posted by umenon View Post
Thanks for the detailed explanation. Since we are talking metadata ... would the upcoming Bluray releases be able to accommodate metadata for both HDR10 and DV on a single disc... for backward compatibility with older players like the Samsung 8500?
Yes, HDR10 is mandatory on the format. There'll never be a disc with just Dolby Vision on it.

Btw I definitely don't agree that HDR10 needs "a lot of calibration and adjusting". Some maybe, but once it's done it's fantastic.

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post #13478 of 29113 Old 02-19-2017, 04:21 PM
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Btw I definitely don't agree that HDR10 needs "a lot of calibration and adjusting". Some maybe, but once it's done it's fantastic.
Fair point. I may have been exaggerating a little. My point being HDR10 discs are a lot more variable and a display may need to be tweaked here and there to look good. I see people complaining on here all the time about this disc being too dark, this one having raised blacks, etc... Ideally, you should just have to calibrate your display once and all discs look great without ever touching settings again. But in practice, that hasn't been the case with all HDR10 discs.
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post #13479 of 29113 Old 02-19-2017, 04:26 PM
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Originally Posted by puddy77 View Post
Fair point. I may have been exaggerating a little. My point being HDR10 discs are a lot more variable and a display may need to be tweaked here and there to look good. I see people complaining on here all the time about this disc being too dark, this one having raised blacks, etc... Ideally, you should just have to calibrate your display once and all discs look great without ever touching settings again. But in practice, that hasn't been the case with all HDR10 discs.
I hear you. I think everyone's learning a lot (I know I have!). Sometimes, not every time but sometimes, when people are complaining things are "too dark", they're just wrong and was meant to be that way. The HDR Channel on Youtube has done two excellent diagnostic videos examining this in detail.
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post #13480 of 29113 Old 02-19-2017, 05:57 PM
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Originally Posted by mrtickleuk View Post
I hear you. I think everyone's learning a lot (I know I have!). Sometimes, not every time but sometimes, when people are complaining things are "too dark", they're just wrong and was meant to be that way. The HDR Channel on Youtube has done two excellent diagnostic videos examining this in detail.
Are we learning yet?

Discs like the arrival, are in fact, too dark if you watch movies with the lights on.

HDR10 has absolute nits value, which means that unlike the SDR version you can't simply crank up the brightness to compensate.

So in fact, the people complaining have a point. Because unless your HDR TV offers gamma adjustments to compensate (Samsung offers this with a setting called "dynamic contrast" that works really well) you may feel like the picture is unwatchable if you're unable to dim the lights in your viewing room.

Also. I have a bone to pick with a lot of the HDR grades on bluray discs.

The vast majority of discs still use the 100 nits "white point" suggestion, and then just go beyond 100 nits for highlights.

I happen to believe that this is a mistake. Yes, the grades still look nicer than straight up SDR. But it's taking out the best part out of HDR for me.

The best part about HDR for me isn't just the highlights, it's the fact that color volume on sunny scenes make the picture look completely different to anything we have seen on SDR before.

When the colorist ignores the 100 nit suggestion, HDR shows it's true potential. Outdoor scenes look as if you're outside, instead of just looking like "a picture of outside". (this is something color volume does, that can't be replicated by a 100 nit white, color looks different at different nits)

This is the reason why HDR tech demos from manufacturers look so much better than most HDR grades on movies and netflix.

I realize that movies like the arrival were meant to be seen like that from the director. But you have to wonder what the point is of having a movie like that in HDR in the first place, if they have no desire of taking advantage of the medium in the first place.

I guarantee you that people would prefer an HDR grade of "the arrival" that not only was brighter overall, as even the highlights are extremely conservative , but also ignored the 100 nit suggestion and went beyond that for the daytime scenes (which there are plenty off)

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post #13481 of 29113 Old 02-19-2017, 06:40 PM
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Are we learning yet?

Discs like the arrival, are in fact, too dark if you watch movies with the lights on.

HDR10 has absolute nits value, which means that unlike the SDR version you can't simply crank up the brightness to compensate.
I agree that the Arrival UHD HDR disk has an unusually dark palate. It didn’t bother me much, though, because these days I watch UHD HDR films in a mostly dark environment. All of the lights in my viewing room are left off but I leave a few on in an adjoining room, in order to have enough ambient light to easily read my remote and see the clock on my coffee table. In this environment the blacks were adequate and the detail just fine.

Despite the darkness of the film’s palate, I thought it was wonderful. This afternoon, I watched it for the third time and its curiously dark look continued to grow on me. Maybe Denis Villeneuve knew what he was doing. I almost didn’t buy the disk because it didn’t have Atmos audio but ended up glad I did buy it. It has one of the best DTS-HD MA 7.1 soundtracks I have heard, its lack of Atmos notwithstanding. Anyway, it was money well spent. Highly recommended, 9 Stars out of 10.

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post #13482 of 29113 Old 02-19-2017, 07:13 PM
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I've been watching Billy Corgan of the Smashing Pumpkins short documentary series called "Thirty Days" on YouTube. It's him travelling on the road across America. Not sure I would recommend unless your a fan, but it's got a nice crisp image and natural colours. It's obviously taken by a simple 4K camera, but the picture looks better than 90% of the grainy HDR /DV content Netflix offers.
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post #13483 of 29113 Old 02-19-2017, 07:33 PM
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I'm in agreement with @gwsat with regards to The Arrival; I watched in a mostly "pitch black" environment (can't even make out remote buttons unless there's a fairly bright scene), and yes, it was a darker movie, but I never felt that it was distracting in any way.
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post #13484 of 29113 Old 02-20-2017, 12:23 AM
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The Billy Lynn disc is pure eye candy. I got used to the 60fps fairly quickly. I would love to see concert releases shot like this, but I don't think I need to see most "films" shot like this.
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post #13485 of 29113 Old 02-20-2017, 05:18 AM
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I notice that some of the folks here own the 8500 UHD player. Does it play YouTube HDR?
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post #13486 of 29113 Old 02-20-2017, 05:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by puddy77 View Post
DV and HDR10 are based on the same EOTF called Perceptual Quantizer (PQ). HDR10 is basically the stripped down free version of DV. DV is 12 bit rec.2020 with dynamic metadata. HDR10 is 10 bit rec.2020 with static metadata.

Vudu is not converting HDR10 to DV. The movie is mastered at the highest quality. The the filmmakers create multiple versions called deliverables for whatever source it will be played on: standard theatrical, Dolby theatrical, DV Vudu, HDR10 disc, etc...

As for the question of fidelity to the director's intent, then DV is what you want. Dynamic metadata means the image on your screen, no matter its capabilities, is adjusted according to however they mastered it originally. The filmmaker is in control. HDR10 with its static metadata means the image is adjusted by the screen manufacturer's own conversion techniques and technologies. The TV maker is in control.

In my opinion, once UHD Blu-rays start releasing DV encoded discs sometime this year, those will be the best quality in terms of fidelity. Right now you have trade-offs between Vudu's DV mastering with higher quality dynamic metadata but streaming quality/bandwidth issues. Versus UBD's higher bandwidth and resolution quality but HDR10's static metadata which requires a lot of calibration and adjusting.
You are correct with everything you said. The only thing that ill add is that no one is really going to see the benefits of Dolby Vision till they start actually producing 12-Bit panels. So in my opinion DV is only slightly better then HDR10 as of right now.

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post #13487 of 29113 Old 02-20-2017, 06:04 AM
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You are correct with everything you said. The only thing that ill add is that no one is really going to see the benefits of Dolby Vision till they start actually producing 12-Bit panels. So in my opinion DV is only slightly better then HDR10 as of right now.


It will depend on the display. A lower end display will benefit more than a high end one.
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post #13488 of 29113 Old 02-20-2017, 11:20 AM
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Originally Posted by umenon View Post
I notice that some of the folks here own the 8500 UHD player. Does it play YouTube HDR?

I assume you mean the Samsung K8500 UHD Blu-ray player...

No, it does not have the VP9 Profile 2 codec necessary to play YouTube HDR.


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post #13489 of 29113 Old 02-20-2017, 01:54 PM
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I assume you mean the Samsung K8500 UHD Blu-ray player...



No, it does not have the VP9 Profile 2 codec necessary to play YouTube HDR.





Richard


This really needs to happen on more devices. There is no reason it can't happen on the PC where processing power is never the issue, or on a nvidia shield or PS4 or Xbox one.

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post #13490 of 29113 Old 02-20-2017, 02:16 PM
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You are correct with everything you said. The only thing that ill add is that no one is really going to see the benefits of Dolby Vision till they start actually producing 12-Bit panels. So in my opinion DV is only slightly better then HDR10 as of right now.
I agree somewhat. We won't see the full benefits of DV's 12 bits until 12 bit panels come out. But the same can also be said for 4000 nit panels since DV content is currently mastered to 4000 nits. That is why dynamic metadata is so important. If you don't have a 12 bit, 4000 nit, 100% P3 coverage panel, then proper color volume mapping is arguably the most important part of DV at this point in time. And in my opinion, that is a fairly large advantage over HDR10's static metadata. Whenever HDR10's dynamic metadata starts to trickle out to discs, players, and displays, then the playing field will almost be even (leaving the only real difference being HDR10's 10 bits to DV's 12). But no one really knows when that will happen. It could be a few years. So until then, I think DV has a lot more going for it.

And looking into the future, by the time consumers get 12 bit, 4000 nit, 100% P3 displays (the last one actually seems to be coming this year), it is likely Dolby will be mastering at 12 bit 10,000 nit, 100% Rec.2020. So dynamic metadata will continue to be important until consumer displays reach those specs.
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post #13491 of 29113 Old 02-20-2017, 02:25 PM
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You are correct with everything you said. The only thing that ill add is that no one is really going to see the benefits of Dolby Vision till they start actually producing 12-Bit panels. So in my opinion DV is only slightly better then HDR10 as of right now.
That's not true at all. First of all that ignores dynamic metadata, but second of all a 10 bit panel means the panel has 1024 equal steps from 0% to 100%. Dolby Vision, like HDR10, is encoded in a logarithmic space, which means more detail goes in the lower nit areas. This means the higher nit areas are going to be more accurate and detailed on a 10bit panel than with HDR10, because more bits are being applied in that area.

With 10bit, and a 10,000 nit scene, 256 steps represent values in the 1000-10,000 nit range. While the TV's panel is capable of producing up to 922 steps in this range. In the same 10,000 nit scene with DV, you'd have 1024 steps in the 1000-10,000 nit range. Which means The 10 bit panel is using much more of its capability in this range, although it's still not using the full capability of a 10bit panel above about 1375 nits.

Of course these ranges change throughout the movie because of local dimming and dynamic metadata, but the fact remains that it's possible to not even use the full potential of a 10bit screen, even with a 12bit source.
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post #13492 of 29113 Old 02-20-2017, 04:52 PM
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This really needs to happen on more devices. There is no reason it can't happen on the PC where processing power is never the issue, or on a nvidia shield or PS4 or Xbox one.

I think that PC-s need the new Intel Kaby Lake processor in order to support UHD and HDR, etc... Some new laptops are already available with the new processor and desktops should be available shortly.

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post #13493 of 29113 Old 02-20-2017, 05:38 PM
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It will depend on the display. A lower end display will benefit more than a high end one.
Yeah, there are a few 8 bit displays with limited HDR capabilities.

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post #13494 of 29113 Old 02-20-2017, 05:42 PM
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Originally Posted by puddy77 View Post
I agree somewhat. We won't see the full benefits of DV's 12 bits until 12 bit panels come out. But the same can also be said for 4000 nit panels since DV content is currently mastered to 4000 nits. That is why dynamic metadata is so important. If you don't have a 12 bit, 4000 nit, 100% P3 coverage panel, then proper color volume mapping is arguably the most important part of DV at this point in time. And in my opinion, that is a fairly large advantage over HDR10's static metadata. Whenever HDR10's dynamic metadata starts to trickle out to discs, players, and displays, then the playing field will almost be even (leaving the only real difference being HDR10's 10 bits to DV's 12). But no one really knows when that will happen. It could be a few years. So until then, I think DV has a lot more going for it.

And looking into the future, by the time consumers get 12 bit, 4000 nit, 100% P3 displays (the last one actually seems to be coming this year), it is likely Dolby will be mastering at 12 bit 10,000 nit, 100% Rec.2020. So dynamic metadata will continue to be important until consumer displays reach those specs.
Don't forget that darn, tone mapping. Dolby version was created with 4000 nits in mind.

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post #13495 of 29113 Old 02-20-2017, 05:48 PM
 
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Damn Billy lynn UHD BD is incredible, best image I've ever seen. Even better than all those exaggerated HDR demos.

The picture is so perfect even on 140'' , I felt like I was in the movie.

I just cant imagine how great it must be on an OLED TV
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post #13496 of 29113 Old 02-20-2017, 05:55 PM
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Has anyone had issues with getting Arrival to play? I tried it in my Xbox One S, and it wouldn't get passed the initial Paramount screen. Sounds like the same issue that some had previously with Lucy and Oblivion.


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post #13497 of 29113 Old 02-20-2017, 07:00 PM
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Originally Posted by fett2099 View Post
Has anyone had issues with getting Arrival to play? I tried it in my Xbox One S, and it wouldn't get passed the initial Paramount screen. Sounds like the same issue that some had previously with Lucy and Oblivion.
Played flawlessly on the Oppo 203 for me; this is the first report of any basic playability issues with this title here.
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post #13498 of 29113 Old 02-20-2017, 07:25 PM
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Originally Posted by fett2099 View Post
Has anyone had issues with getting Arrival to play? I tried it in my Xbox One S, and it wouldn't get passed the initial Paramount screen. Sounds like the same issue that some had previously with Lucy and Oblivion.
I have watched my Arrival UHD HDR disk three times, most recently last night, and haven't had a bit of trouble with it. My Oppo UDP-203 froze on Lucy once but played Oblivion perfectly when I watched in last Friday.
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post #13499 of 29113 Old 02-20-2017, 08:37 PM
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Originally Posted by gwsat View Post
I have watched my Arrival UHD HDR disk three times, most recently last night, and haven't had a bit of trouble with it. My Oppo UDP-203 froze on Lucy once but played Oblivion perfectly when I watched in last Friday.
LUCY UHD froze on my Phillips, Panasonic, but played fine on my Oppo.

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post #13500 of 29113 Old 02-20-2017, 10:06 PM
 
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What's the deal with Google Play Movies? When you try to rent or purchase UHD movies, the only options are SD and HD. Is 4K not available anywhere, or just in Canada? Is it limited to certain devices?

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