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post #25861 of 26752 Old 03-19-2019, 12:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom Roper View Post
Hi All,
Back with a test file I processed into HDR10+. Well hopefully.
[...]
Here is the file, download it to a USB flashdrive and play straight into your HDR display device. (Download link in the upper right hand corner of page.)
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Nhn...ew?usp=sharing Thanks for trying!
Great, thanks! Would it be possible for you to create an otherwise identical "HDR10-only" version (but without the extra HDR10+ data), so that those people who do have HDR10+ hardware will be able to play both clips A/B style, and for the first time in the over-two years since HDR10+ was announced, actually see if it makes any visible difference on their TVs?

EDIT: Seems to play back fine on my LG C8. The "HDR"[10] 'toast' pops up as normal and it looks like HDR. Is it churlish to be disappointed that there wasn't a comedy "crash" sound effect when the car got to the bottom of the hill?
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post #25862 of 26752 Old 03-19-2019, 01:01 PM
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If any of you have an HDR capable youtube app, I've just recorded my first HDR footage from my PS4 using a Ninja Inferno, and I'm curious in hearing about how this looks on different displays:


If you open it up in another youtube app first it will show in your library/history on the other app to make it easier to find.

For those curious, MaxCLL is 3358 and MaxFALL is 258

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post #25863 of 26752 Old 03-19-2019, 01:19 PM
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@Tom Roper , as expected, played via my Oppo 203 direct to my HDR-10 display (no HDR-10+ support here), I get HDR-10+ reported and HDR-10 output:
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post #25864 of 26752 Old 03-19-2019, 02:21 PM
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Originally Posted by galonzo View Post
@Tom Roper , as expected, played via my Oppo 203 direct to my HDR-10 display (no HDR-10+ support here), I get HDR-10+ reported and HDR-10 output:
I really appreciate seeing the display screenshot! :thumbsup:
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Directed by MANUEL BENITO DE VALLE Produced by PEDRO PABLO FIGUEROA
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post #25865 of 26752 Old 03-19-2019, 02:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom Roper View Post
Yes, I can do that, that would make an interesting comparison, an identical HDR10-only version without the HDR10+ metadata, I'll start on it tonight! As a prediction, I suspect the current test is not ideal for that since it is lacking in vibrant colors which could better emphasize any difference in color volumes from the tone mapping, so I'm also going to keep an eye toward another demonstration in lower light with neon signs or similar.
Fantastic, you have provided the first ever freely downloadable HDR10+ demo in the whole world, thank-you so so much!
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post #25866 of 26752 Old 03-19-2019, 04:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom Roper View Post
Hi All,
Back with a test file I processed into HDR10+. Well hopefully. That's why I need your help, of particular those of you with HDR10+ display devices. But anyone can participate. I'm interested in your observations. Any problems with playback? Does it turn on an HDR10+ icon or light, or give indication it's in HDR10+ playback mode? This could be a bit of a stress test, it's 4k 60fps, at about 35 Mbps so it may not play for everyone, then again I hope that it will.

A little bit about the film. It's 3 test clips, similar but different. The display device (your tv) reads embedded HDR10+ SEI metadata packets frame by frame. The decoder in the TV uses the metadata to tone map the HDR to the capability of the display device. If the HDR10 device doesn't support HDR10+ it ignores the extra metadata, and just uses the static metadata, making HDR10+ backward compatible with HDR10.

The film was shot to a very high spec with the Sony PMW-F55 cinema cam, 4K 16 bit Raw. A 1000 nit HDR grade was produced from a P3 color 1000 nit mastering monitor. It was then mastered to 4K 12 bit 4:4:4. Each clip in the HDR grade was then machine analyzed to produce dynamic metadata, scene by scene. Each analyzed scene metadata was thereafter adjusted according to the intent of the colorist. A JSON dynamic metadata file was created from the timeline and embedded into the elementary stream by the HEVC encoder at run time, which delivered a HDR10+ compliant 4K, 60 fps, 10 bit, 4:2:0 WCG bt.2020, PQ ST2084 transfer, 35 Mbps.

It's only a test. You'll realize that as soon as you see, boring subject matter, but highly detailed WCG and HDR, that showcases handling of bright objects and specular highlights. So don't expect Emmy nominated cinema this time, hopefully lots more free content to come if successful, but please share your playback observations, problems, etc. What are you playing it on? Thank you! Tom

Here is the file, download it to a USB flashdrive and play straight into your HDR display device. (Download link in the upper right hand corner of page.)
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Nhn...ew?usp=sharing Thanks for trying!
Nice video, worked fine and Info screen shows "HDR10+" but my display is not capable so it's outputting HDR10.
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post #25867 of 26752 Old 03-19-2019, 04:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by morphinapg View Post
If any of you have an HDR capable youtube app, I've just recorded my first HDR footage from my PS4 using a Ninja Inferno, and I'm curious in hearing about how this looks on different displays:

https://youtu.be/-1qBqQcqx38

If you open it up in another youtube app first it will show in your library/history on the other app to make it easier to find.

For those curious, MaxCLL is 3358 and MaxFALL is 258

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Nice video as well but had trouble outputting HDR10 on my LG BD player which is HDR capable on Youtube, it just played in SDR. I then watched it on my Roku and at first had a black screen but I went back and played it a second time and it showed HDR10.
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post #25868 of 26752 Old 03-19-2019, 06:35 PM
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Originally Posted by lujan View Post
Nice video, worked fine and Info screen shows "HDR10+" but my display is not capable so it's outputting HDR10.
The display is not HDR10+ capable but reports it as such? That's interesting!

Edit: Is it the UHD Blu-ray player reporting it as such? Now it's making sense.

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post #25869 of 26752 Old 03-19-2019, 07:23 PM
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@morphinapg , appears to be working great on my phone (LG G7 ThinQ) and my Chromecast Ultra.
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post #25870 of 26752 Old 03-19-2019, 10:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom Roper View Post
It looked great! from Windows 10 Edge browser HDR10 enabled, fyi YouTube ignores MaxCLL/MaxFall and all ST2086 mastering display settings. Everything above 1000 nits gets clipped, but I like the way it looked all around, shadows and highlights, colorful, pretty, made me a bit dizzy at times, I think he could have gotten to Athena without going over so many statues, luckily he stuck all the landings.
Okay. Wasn't sure if they used that or not for the HDR10 signal, but I was hoping it would at least be used for the SDR downconversion. From my experiments tonemapping to SDR based on that metadata, I would think they did, but I can't be 100% sure whether they use the data, use the same tonemapping for everything, or maybe just analyze the signal themselves for the tonemapping.

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post #25871 of 26752 Old 03-20-2019, 12:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Tom Roper View Post
The display is not HDR10+ capable but reports it as such? That's interesting!

Edit: Is it the UHD Blu-ray player reporting it as such? Now it's making sense.
Yes, the Oppo 203.
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post #25872 of 26752 Old 03-20-2019, 12:50 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Tom Roper View Post
Here is the exact same file without the json sidecar metadata (HDR10+). It is otherwise a fully compliant regular HDR10 with the usual static metadata. The file is renamed Test_HDR10-.mkv. It is a wee bit smaller because of taking out the dynamic metadata.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1aVJ...ew?usp=sharing

Hey Tom, might get a chance to test these on my hdr10+ capable tv tomorrow. On my Galaxy S9+, the regular hdr10 version is alot brighter. The hdr10+ is on the dark side. (my S10+ is currently delayed, which is hdr10+ capable).
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post #25873 of 26752 Old 03-20-2019, 05:52 AM
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Originally Posted by ray0414 View Post
Hey Tom, might get a chance to test these on my hdr10+ capable tv tomorrow. On my Galaxy S9+, the regular hdr10 version is alot brighter. The hdr10+ is on the dark side. (my S10+ is currently delayed, which is hdr10+ capable).
Good observation! Now that you have noticed that, do you see a bigger difference (more dark) in the 2nd and 3rd scenes compared to the 1st scene where they are more similar? And then of the darker scenes, if you were able to "mask" out from view everything but the brightest specular highlights, could those specular highlights have the same brightness or are they darker as well? Many thanks!

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post #25874 of 26752 Old 03-20-2019, 06:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Tom Roper View Post
@morphinapg

Anecdote: When I graded "Into the Cave of Wonders," the source footage had quite a few clipped highlights in some scenes that you couldn't do anything about, and the director specified 4000 nits for the grade. In the end, the difference between a 1000 nit and a 4000 nit grade came down to visually practically negligible as even 100 nits is still about 90% reference white, and the majority of the content is below that. Almost all the difference between a 1000 nit and 4000 nit grade happens above the 500 nit level so they otherwise look almost the same, with the only significant differences being the very brightest specular highlights which if clipped in the source would only be clipped harder and brighter if shown on an actual 4000 nit capable display. But if tone mapped down from 4000 nits, can bring down the mid tones making the whole image darker, a source of complaints in many DV titles.
I find that DV titles are much better at preserving mid-times than 4000 nit titles on the LG C7. The tone-mapping dips below 100 nits, which (IMO) is a bad idea.
Dynamic tone-mapping on the LG restores APL but falls back to an aggressive curve in the presence of spectral highlights. I use the HDFury Vertex to override the static metadata since it is not reliable on many titles and my preference is to preserve mid-tones. A display should not make a HDR appear dimmer lowering the APL.

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post #25875 of 26752 Old 03-20-2019, 08:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Roper View Post
What static metadata do you override and what do you replace it with?
Max Luminance and MaxCLL 600.
Min Luminance and MaxFALL 0 (these don't seem to matter).

My goal is to disable tone-mapping.
I have not measured the curves so it is hard to say which settings track the EOTF best, so it is to taste.

Vincent Teoh's Batman V Superman comparison shows just how dark a title with 4000 nit metadata becomes.
The C7 dynamic tone-mapping does not correct this scene because there are spectral highlights.

In the image attached, the Sony (left) has little or no tone-mapping, C7 (center) has aggressive tone-mapping with reduced APL, and Panasonic (Right) is less aggressive mapping.

There seems to have been a singular focus on preserving detail in spectral highlights but APL is drastically reduced and low level detail is lost.
This may have lent many a reviewer astray, perceiving the title itself as dimmer than the SDR version when it may actually be coming from the display.

I re-watched BvS with the tone-mapping override and in this title it is much improved.
Daylight scenes no longer look like twilight.
Bright flashes loose detail but they have a greater impact because more of the screen is bright, which I feel it truer to the intent.

I have also attached Vincent's measurement of the tone-mapping for 4000 nits. which shows that dimming occurs below 100 nits.

LG seems to be continuing to have separate tone-mapping curves for 1000, 4000, and 10000 nits in the 2019 OLEDs.
If like the C7, these influence dynamic tone-mapping, then that is a mistake. Thankfully, Calman can be used to alter these curves.

I don't see why a display with dynamic tone-mapping should display a scene with max luminance of 500 nits differently based on the static metadata.
It seems contrary to the purpose of moving to the PQ EOTF, namely, reproducing the mastered image faithfully at home.
Dynamic tone-mapping should ignore the static metadata, but at least on the C7, it does not.

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post #25876 of 26752 Old 03-20-2019, 09:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Tom Roper View Post
The best way to insure a great SDR down-conversion from YouTube is to put the HDR clip on a standard 709 2.4 gamma timeline; it will look flat of course because 2.4 gamma is the wrong transfer, but then grade that until it has the appropriate contrast, brightness and saturation for SDR, then save the grade as a cube lut. Use MKVToolNix to embed your static metadata and include the cube lut as a file attachment for the upload. The process is explained in YouTube help, search keyword "HDR."



Edit: Changed "get" to "insure."
I actually plan on editing the footage in the flat looking view because 1, I can display that on my ninja inferno correctly as a reference monitor, and 2, it allows me to output the raw PQ formatted source to x265 for when I'm encoding in HDR. Premiere's native HDR support is iffy and doesn't give me as much control as this method. So it wouldn't be too much work to do what you're saying here. I did test creating a custom LUT to match a tonemapping curve I came up with based on the metadata, and it looked mostly good but the saturation was off because the gamut didn't match, but I can play around with that some more. The way I encode, the metadata is included directly in the HEVC stream, rather than added later. I've had to analyze histogram data of the RGB values themselves for selected frames compared to a PQ reference chart in order to manually come up with the MaxCLL and MaxFALL values, haha.

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Hey Tom, might get a chance to test these on my hdr10+ capable tv tomorrow. On my Galaxy S9+, the regular hdr10 version is alot brighter. The hdr10+ is on the dark side. (my S10+ is currently delayed, which is hdr10+ capable).
I forgot my S10 has HDR10+. I'm looking at it now on my S10. And it does look pretty good.
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Any word on when and if the Lord of the Rings Trilogy will be offered in 4K/HDR?
There may be limited detail enhancement since there is a lot of CGI, but the expanded color-space, faithful color-grade, and HDR/DV could be spectacular.


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post #25879 of 26752 Old 03-20-2019, 11:22 AM
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I was at the grocery store the other day and walked past my local Redbox kiosk and saw they now rent 4K movies here. Score! So I brought home the new Crimes of Grindlewald and gave it a watch. The picture looked good. Not great. But good. The DV did it’s job. The carnival scene was nice. But the battle at the cemetery was where the DV came to life. That was fun. Now I didn’t really care for the first one. Thought the Newt guy was an incredibly boring character. And he’s still boring in this one. However, by the time they got to Hogwarts I found myself enjoying this movie more and more. A solid 4K rental.
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post #25880 of 26752 Old 03-20-2019, 11:34 AM
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Any word on when and if the Lord of the Rings Trilogy will be offered in 4K/HDR?
There may be limited detail enhancement since there is a lot of CGI, but the expanded color-space, faithful color-grade, and HDR/DV could be spectacular.


- Rich
Yeah I'm waiting to watch those movies again until they come out in 4K. I have the extended Blu-ray set but unfortunately that didn't also come with the theatrical versions and I kind of prefer those and don't always have enough time to watch the extended cuts. But I didn't exactly want to buy the theatrical set in regular Blu-ray when 4K could be around the corner.

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post #25881 of 26752 Old 03-20-2019, 11:47 AM
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Yeah information from MaxCLL and MaxFALL is typically used in deciding how to best tonemap the content based on the display capabilities. That's why dynamic metadata is useful because then you can tonemap each scene differently.

DV goes beyond that in understanding the physical capabilities of the mastering display compared to the TV better in determining a custom tonemapping curve for each scene, which tends to be a smarter designed curve than any HDR10 tonemapping I've seen.

The actual values are the same though regardless of what the metadata says. That was definitely a misconception I had when I started out with HDR. I figured the point of metadata was to redefine the minimum and maximum values depending on the content (like if a movie has a max of 2500 nits, then 940 could be 2500) but that's not how they did it. Honestly, that would have been a better way to handle it if done right because then you get a better use of the bit depth and no unused bits, but the way they did it is certainly easier to work with in the calculations.

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post #25882 of 26752 Old 03-20-2019, 11:58 AM
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Originally Posted by aaronwt View Post
I forgot my S10 has HDR10+. I'm looking at it now on my S10. And it does look pretty good.
Thanks a lot!

In HDR10+ mode did anything jump out at you in the handling of the first scene compared to the following two?

HDR Colorist and Conversions
INTO THE CAVE OF WONDERS
Directed by MANUEL BENITO DE VALLE Produced by PEDRO PABLO FIGUEROA
Cast MANUEL ANGEL REINA, CLAUDIA GARROTE
LOVETHEFRAME STORIES, SOUNDTRACKS AND FILMS
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post #25883 of 26752 Old 03-20-2019, 12:24 PM
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The answer to this is in the fact that the OETF is in the YUV encoding, not the metadata, and there are separate OETF curves for:

ST2084-300
ST2084-500
ST2084-800
ST2084-1000
ST2084-2000
ST2084-3000
ST2084-4000

BUT...only ONE EOTF for decoding.

These (10 bit) YUV code values are constant and do NOT change:
4000 Nits = 920
3000 Nits = 892
2000 Nits = 844
1000 Nits = 767
800 Nits = 744
500 Nits = 692
300 Nits =636

When the colorist makes his grade he chooses the OETF based on the grading monitor he uses.

The OETF transfer curves are baked into the YUV code values for the stream itself, not by the metadata.

But the curves are played back through just one EOTF decoding function. That is why the outputs look different because the inputs are different. Tone mapping is applied by the television at the end of the line. But the static metadata is informational to the TV, only one piece of it is required, ST2084 to switch the television's processing into HDR mode. All the others, MaxFall, MaxCLL, display mastering RGB primaries, white point, max and min luminance are optional. Whether they have any effect at all is solely up to the television maker's processing intent.

The Dynamic metadata, whether for DV or HDR10+ comes from machine analysis of the scene, with optional trim by the colorist. It is a tone map from HDR to SDR. It is up to the TV maker's processing intent to interpolate between these two points HDR and SDR, to come up with the best fit that matches to the capability of the display both for color gamut and luminance.
The display is in charge some are using the optional metadata fields, which are clearly, inconsistent.
Refer to the attached metadata sample file. This one posted by @claw. It is a .csv with .txt extension (that should be removed after download).

Dynamic tone-mapping in the LG C7 still uses these static metadata fields.
I expect the HDR10+ makes this easier since the frame-by-frame analysis is provided but the tone-mapping is still applied by the display.

HDR10 titles with 4000 nit metadata daytime scenes appear dull on the C7.
DV seems to have more control and those titles are among the very best on the C7 and never appear dimmed.
The Dolby Vision tone-mapping algorithm implemented in the display does not show any dimming.

- Rich
Attached Files
File Type: txt metadata_v5.csv.txt (56.3 KB, 5 views)

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post #25884 of 26752 Old 03-20-2019, 01:17 PM
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I saw Saving Private Ryan for the first time and it was very good PQ for a 20 year old movie and the Atmos track was literally explosive!
Check out Braveheart if you haven't seen it yet. You would think it was released in the last 5 years with how good the audio and video are.
Saw brave heart excellent UHD

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post #25885 of 26752 Old 03-20-2019, 02:21 PM
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Saw brave heart excellent UHD
No specific reason for quoting you other than it was refreshing to read a post that's actually on topic!

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post #25886 of 26752 Old 03-20-2019, 03:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Here's some YouTube hdr10 content shot with a new Samsung galaxy S10+.



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post #25887 of 26752 Old 03-21-2019, 06:11 AM
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Yeah, more Disney Points. Boo re the layoffs.

Disney CEO Bob Iger is already gearing up for the next phase of the company on the heels of its acquisition of 21st Century Fox, which closed Wednesday.

The $71 billion (C$94.47 billion) acquisition adds a number of beloved entertainment assets to Disney's collection as it prepares to launch its streaming service among a crowded field of competitors. Disney can count shows from Fox Channels like "Modern Family" and "This Is Us" as well as properties like Marvel's "X-Men" to its library on Disney+, which is expected to launch later this year.

In a note to employees shared with CNBC, Iger thanked members of both organizations on their "patience and perseverance" leading up to the acquisition. He quickly turned to the road ahead, which he says will hold "the challenging work of uniting our businesses to create a dynamic, global entertainment company with the content, the platforms, and the reach to deliver industry-defining experiences that will engage consumers around the world for generations to come."

Some of those growing pains are likely to include layoffs, which are expected to be in the thousands, as Disney and Fox pare down duplicate staff. Iger said the integration "will be an evolution, with some businesses impacted more than others." Fox and Disney have overlap in their film production staffs.

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post #25888 of 26752 Old 03-21-2019, 07:28 AM
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Originally Posted by p5browne View Post
Disney CEO Bob Iger is already gearing up for the next phase of the company on the heels of its acquisition of 21st Century Fox, which closed Wednesday.



The $71 billion (C$94.47 billion) acquisition adds a number of beloved entertainment assets to Disney's collection as it prepares to launch its streaming service among a crowded field of competitors. Disney can count shows from Fox Channels like "Modern Family" and "This Is Us" as well as properties like Marvel's "X-Men" to its library on Disney+, which is expected to launch later this year.



In a note to employees shared with CNBC, Iger thanked members of both organizations on their "patience and perseverance" leading up to the acquisition. He quickly turned to the road ahead, which he says will hold "the challenging work of uniting our businesses to create a dynamic, global entertainment company with the content, the platforms, and the reach to deliver industry-defining experiences that will engage consumers around the world for generations to come."



Some of those growing pains are likely to include layoffs, which are expected to be in the thousands, as Disney and Fox pare down duplicate staff. Iger said the integration "will be an evolution, with some businesses impacted more than others." Fox and Disney have overlap in their film production staffs.


This is and was expected. As with any merger of large companies.
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post #25889 of 26752 Old 03-21-2019, 07:30 AM
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Any word on when and if the Lord of the Rings Trilogy will be offered in 4K/HDR?
There may be limited detail enhancement since there is a lot of CGI, but the expanded color-space, faithful color-grade, and HDR/DV could be spectacular.


- Rich


No news, this is a wish list item if many folks, but with Peter Jackson busy on other projects it probably won’t be done “soon”.
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post #25890 of 26752 Old 03-21-2019, 02:30 PM
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^^^ Speaking of Which... time to update the ol' wish list:


1. Lord of The Rings Trilogy
2. The Hobbit Trilogy
3. Alien Franchise (the First one coming but still missing 2, 3, and 4)
4. Daniel Craig Bonds (Already confirmed?)
5. Riddick Quadrology
6. The ISLAND
7. Dawn of the Dead (Zack Snyder Version)
8. Resident Evil (First 4-5 Movies still Missing)
9. Minority Report
10. Any movies with word Mars or going to Mars (Mission to Mars, Red Planet, Both Total Recalls, Ghosts of Mars, etc.
11. Armageddon (Atmos track would blow up the Neighborhood)
12. Tron Legacy
13. iRobot
14. 300
15. Kingdom of Heaven
16. Blade Trilogy
17. Fight Club Maybe? (See the Avatar)
18. While Im at it, can I demand they re-do the dang Bourne Movies and Oblivion...


I think that's all for now
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