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post #28381 of 28633 Old 11-18-2019, 04:18 PM
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Same thing probably with Dead Man's Chest. Watched that a bit and thought they were streaming the SDR file by accident. Finding Nemo is also questionable.
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post #28382 of 28633 Old 11-18-2019, 07:20 PM
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Originally Posted by bobbino421 View Post
I haven’t watch a new hope fully, I only sampled certain scenes and I just noticed more details from the higher resolution but It did seem like it wasn’t more than SDR. I’m no expert but that’s what my eyes saw. Fake HDR aside from certain content, the Mandalorian imo is a PQ masterpiece!
Mandalorian has great 4K detail/sharpness, and there are some good uses of highlight, but nothing particularly impressive imo, and shadows need to be improved considerably. Those who prioritize the 4K side of things will really like Mandalorian, but I don't think it's anything special in the HDR department.

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post #28383 of 28633 Old 11-18-2019, 07:26 PM
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Any HDR feedback on the Star Wars game that just came out?

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post #28384 of 28633 Old 11-18-2019, 08:15 PM
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Any HDR feedback on the Star Wars game that just came out?
Looks pretty good!
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post #28385 of 28633 Old 11-19-2019, 12:23 AM
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It's not just Disney that does this. Many HDR releases of older titles are regrades on top of an existing SDR master. The quality of that regrade can vary quite a bit depending on how much time is provided, as well as the quality of the source material. There are a lot of tools and tricks colorists have at their disposal, but if the colorist has to fight limitations in the source (that might also be present even if they went back to a film scan) then they can only do so much to the image before it starts to fall apart. In addition to that, some directors and franchises are very protective of the original look of the movie. In those cases, the colorist may be able to do more but they have to dial it back to stay within the boundaries established by the client.

As for working from EXR files, even that doesn't necessarily guarantee a better result. Usually they are best source to work from. However, if the renders weren't being carefully checked during production, the files can contain all sorts of inconsistencies in the FX. Some lights could be far brighter than others, some effects may contain artifacts... there are all sorts of things that would be masked in SDR and overlooked if the production is in crunch mode. Then when you open up the EXR file and finally look at it in HDR, you just go holy #$*!!! how do we fix this? On top of that, those EXR files have a good chance of missing other fixes that were made later during post-production, so then you have to track down those too, recreate them and hope none were missed. Going back to the EXR does not always make the remastering easier. Speaking from experience.

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This is what I've been saying about a lot of Disney catalog releases this year. Not all. Some have been fantastic. But for a lot of them, it almost seems like Disney applies some kind of HDR-ify filter to a 10bit SDR source. It often feels like they crank gamma up a little bit, and then increase exposure to compensate. This makes shadows darker, highlights brighter, makes highlights a bit more defined, but ultimately still has that SDR feel to it. It's not unlike those fake HDR modes on TVs, just with a 10bit source instead of an 8bit one. Possibly with true WCG but that's not always guaranteed.

And you just have to think, with the sheer amount of HDR content Disney has released this year, there's just no way they've all received proper attention for their HDR grades. The Force Awakens and Rogue One having the best grades doesn't surprise me, as I know TFA grade was done at the time of theatrical release, and I'd guess Rogue One was as well. So those received proper attention to their grades. Some of the CGI movies looking good also wouldn't be too surprising as CGI can be rendered with lighting that naturally goes beyond what was rendered at the time. If that original source still existed as EXR renders, a quick and easy proper remaster would be doable.

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post #28386 of 28633 Old 11-19-2019, 12:41 AM
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Originally Posted by ray0414 View Post
BUYER BEWARE.

Disney caught with fake hdr regrades? Before anyone gets too upset. They stil get WCG/10bit/4k


https://youtu.be/VGZmMjPJiAk
The analysis Vincent is performing is not particularly good. All he is doing is an image difference and turning that into a heatmap of how much extra luminance is used in the HDR. That doesn't actually say anything about the source used for the HDR master. It just reveals how much range they actually used. You could do a "true HDR" master from source files and if it is creatively not a large departure from the SDR then it would fail his analysis. What he should be doing is isolating the high frequency component of the image and then analyzing that to see if the HDR version contains more information in the highlights. As it is, his criteria for "fake HDR" is simply that values do not go very bright. The reality for many older movies is that the source material just isn't good enough to push it very far into HDR, even if you are working from a raw film scan. The original Star Wars, shot in 1977, was on Kodak 5247. That stock was created in the 1950's and is a far cry from the dynamic range of the newer stocks like Kodak Vision3. For reference, the dynamic range of 5247 is around 8-9 stops. Vincent shouldn't be so shocked that a movie made in the last decade is going to utilize a much larger dynamic range.
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post #28387 of 28633 Old 11-19-2019, 12:50 AM
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Originally Posted by EvLee View Post
It's not just Disney that does this. Many HDR releases of older titles are regrades on top of an existing SDR master. The quality of that regrade can vary quite a bit depending on how much time is provided, as well as the quality of the source material. There are a lot of tools and tricks colorists have at their disposal, but if the colorist has to fight limitations in the source (that might also be present even if they went back to a film scan) then they can only do so much to the image before it starts to fall apart. In addition to that, some directors and franchises are very protective of the original look of the movie. In those cases, the colorist may be able to do more but they have to dial it back to stay within the boundaries established by the client.

As for working from EXR files, even that doesn't necessarily guarantee a better result. Usually they are best source to work from. However, if the renders weren't being carefully checked during production, the files can contain all sorts of inconsistencies in the FX. Some lights could be far brighter than others, some effects may contain artifacts... there are all sorts of things that would be masked in SDR and overlooked if the production is in crunch mode. Then when you open up the EXR file and finally look at it in HDR, you just go holy #$*!!! how do we fix this? On top of that, those EXR files have a good chance of missing other fixes that were made later during post-production, so then you have to track down those too, recreate them and hope none were missed. Going back to the EXR does not always make the remastering easier. Speaking from experience.
Totally agree on both points. For the SDR-to-HDR grade point, you can absolutely deliver fantastic results with the right source, WHEN enough attention is dedicated to it. An SDR source (including film) often still retains a lot of the detail you see revealed in HDR highlights, rolled off instead of clipped. Whenever that's the case, if you know what you're doing an have the right tools, you can seriously bring out a ton of extra highlight information. Heck, even with a pure 8-bit SDR source, you can still bring out a ton of information (although it obviously creates banding). Here's a couple examples I've done.

First, from SOLO, is this shot in SDR:


After carefully manipulating curves, I was able to achieve this much highlight detail:


Then here's another shot, from Endgame:


Then my manipulated version:


If I can extract this much highlight detail out of an 8bit source (compressed at that), then imagine what a studio could do with a proper 16bit source with WCG. The problem is, you actually have to dedicate time to carefully analyzing and manipulating every single scene. A lot of these cheap jobs are applying one filter to the whole movie, and often even using the same filter on multiple movies. You really need to dedicate time to a project to get good HDR. On a scene by scene level at the very least, and really, on a shot by shot level for best results. You really need a talented colorist experienced with HDR that really knows what good HDR should do, and you need to give them the same level of dedication you would before any theatrical release for the color grading process. If you're not willing to put in the time and money to making it look great, it's really a wasted opportunity and we'll probably just end up seeing a proper remaster years down the line.

And none of what I did above results in highlight detail that looks unnatural. When viewed at the correct exposure, those are VERY bright highlights, and yet they look perfectly natural. It annoys me so much when people say things like "the highlights aren't overdone" because what they're usually doing is excusing crap highlights, not suggesting the highlights are of an appropriate dynamic range. Sure it's possible to crank things up beyond what's appropriate for the scene, but I've found that's pretty dang rare.
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post #28388 of 28633 Old 11-19-2019, 01:00 AM
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Originally Posted by EvLee View Post
The analysis Vincent is performing is not particularly good. All he is doing is an image difference and turning that into a heatmap of how much extra luminance is used in the HDR. That doesn't actually say anything about the source used for the HDR master. It just reveals how much range they actually used. You could do a "true HDR" master from source files and if it is creatively not a large departure from the SDR then it would fail his analysis. What he should be doing is isolating the high frequency component of the image and then analyzing that to see if the HDR version contains more information in the highlights. As it is, his criteria for "fake HDR" is simply that values do not go very bright. The reality for many older movies is that the source material just isn't good enough to push it very far into HDR, even if you are working from a raw film scan. The original Star Wars, shot in 1977, was on Kodak 5247. That stock was created in the 1950's and is a far cry from the dynamic range of the newer stocks like Kodak Vision3. For reference, the dynamic range of 5247 is around 8-9 stops. Vincent shouldn't be so shocked that a movie made in the last decade is going to utilize a much larger dynamic range.
He does comment on that in the end, about that it was lacking in dynamic range, not just nits. He said he was confident he could reproduce similar results by manipulating TV settings. Basically higher OLED/Backlight and gamma settings would do it.
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post #28389 of 28633 Old 11-19-2019, 02:29 AM
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According to the guide on Directv, the ESPN 4k QLED game of the week is Michigan vs Indiana on channel 107. On channel 105, Boston College vs Notre Dame in 4k HDR. On Channel 106, it just says TBA for the FS1 game from 2:30-6:00 pm. But if they pick the game that's in the same time slot, the fs1 game 4k HDR game will be Baylor vs Texas. All these games are pretty much at the same time but Boston College vs Notre Dame starts about an hour earlier. There is also a premier League game in 4k HDR at 6:30 am on Saturday on channel 106: West Ham United FC vs Tottenham Hotspur FC. Thursday Night football in 4k HDR will be the Colts vs Texans on channel 105.

Also, the first 4K HDR game of the NBA season is the Mavs vs Clippers on the 26th on Directv! Looking forward to seeing the NBA in 4k HDR again! From what I remember Directv is the only provider that carries the NBA games in 4k HDR. Someone correct me if I am wrong.
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post #28390 of 28633 Old 11-19-2019, 05:00 AM
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I was finally able to watch the last Daniel Craig Bond movie "Spectre" last night and I thought this one was the worst as far as 4k video quality. I liked "Skyfall" the best and thought the other two were pretty good as well.

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post #28391 of 28633 Old 11-19-2019, 05:07 AM
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@lujan, I did like skyfall, but as a projector owner, I thought spectre was pretty good on disc. I think I liked that one the most actually. Maybe someday I will get an OLED....
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post #28392 of 28633 Old 11-19-2019, 08:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by morphinapg View Post
Mandalorian has great 4K detail/sharpness, and there are some good uses of highlight, but nothing particularly impressive imo, and shadows need to be improved considerably. Those who prioritize the 4K side of things will really like Mandalorian, but I don't think it's anything special in the HDR department.

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I watched the Mandolorian E1 at my Bro-in-laws house last night and agree with you on most things. The resolution is good but not crazy sharp and there's not much in terms of HDR here; the Mando chick's helmet shined a few times but that's about it. Not a lot of depth either, her gun/blaster looked like a black shape with no details whatsoever. It does have some good colors, the red hovercraft, red armor, the blue guy and the orange guy all looked pretty good. At least there's no grain here so that helps a lot. Kept reminding me of the PQ of Solo but a bit compressed, though Solo has crazy depth and shadow details.

On another note of Disney faking things, there's talks of fake Atmos in the Atmos thread (I believe) where ppl are claiming the sound is only 2.0 channels but the signal forces the receiver to read it as Atmos. So the 5.1 sound is actually 5.1, but on Appletv where you can get Atmos, it only reads as Atmos and is only 2 channel sound. My bro-in-law isnt equipped for atmos so i couldn't test that at his place.
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post #28393 of 28633 Old 11-19-2019, 09:04 AM
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I watched the Mandolorian E1 at my Bro-in-laws house last night and agree with you on most things. The resolution is good but not crazy sharp and there's not much in terms of HDR here; the Mando chick's helmet shined a few times but that's about it. Not a lot of depth either, her gun/blaster looked like a black shape with no details whatsoever. It does have some good colors, the red hovercraft, red armor, the blue guy and the orange guy all looked pretty good. At least there's no grain here so that helps a lot. Kept reminding me of the PQ of Solo but a bit compressed, thought Solo has crazy depth and shadow details.

On another note of Disney faking things, there's talks of fake Atmos in the Atmos thread (I believe) where ppl are claiming the sound is only 2.0 channels but the signal forces the receiver to read it as Atmos. So the 5.1 sound is actually 5.1, but on Appletv where you can get Atmos, it only reads as Atmos and is only 2 channel sound. My bro-in-law isnt equipped for atmos so i couldn't test that at his place.
I haven't watch Mandalorian yet but I did watch Star Wars Episode 1 and did notice the sound was much better with Atmos (more so than the video) than I've ever heard with previous versions of this title. I don't agree that they are only using 2.0 channels.
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post #28394 of 28633 Old 11-19-2019, 11:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Movies coming in 2020 are starting to leak

Boys in the hood
Elephant man
Total Recall (Arnold)
Basic Instict
Flash Gordon
Dead of Night


https://deadline.com/2019/11/breathl...se-1202789562/

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post #28395 of 28633 Old 11-20-2019, 03:38 AM
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Just watched Long Shot (99 cent UHD rental on Amazon) and I'd say the overall look of the movie feels like they really cranked up brightness and saturation. Saturation especially got pushed beyond natural levels, resulting in some pretty vivid colors (lots of WCG), but it looked wrong in a lot of places. Overall brightness of the movie was higher, in a similar sense to increasing OLED/Backlight beyond natural levels, but there was some definite added highlight pop in many places as well. Black levels weren't great in most scenes.

Overall I don't think they really handled HDR right with the movie for the most part, but if you're someone who can be easily wowed by HDR brightness and color, or enjoy those vivid modes on TVs, you may enjoy this one in UHD.

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post #28396 of 28633 Old 11-20-2019, 02:50 PM
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Originally Posted by ray0414 View Post
Movies coming in 2020 are starting to leak

Boys in the hood
Elephant man
Total Recall (Arnold)
Basic Instict
Flash Gordon
Dead of Night


https://deadline.com/2019/11/breathl...se-1202789562/

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post #28397 of 28633 Old 11-20-2019, 03:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ray0414 View Post
Movies coming in 2020 are starting to leak

Boys in the hood
Elephant man
Total Recall (Arnold)
Basic Instict
Flash Gordon
Dead of Night


https://deadline.com/2019/11/breathl...se-1202789562/

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You had me at Total Recall
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post #28398 of 28633 Old 11-20-2019, 03:53 PM
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I watched the Mandalorian last night. I had Atmos audio with it from the ATV 4K and also from my stand alone Roku.
Can you please rewatch again, I believe you will not be getting Atmos on either devices ANYMORE.

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Death to Ming!
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You had me at Total Recall
Me too, out of the list the only one I'm interested is "Total Recall".
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post #28401 of 28633 Old 11-20-2019, 05:02 PM
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Can you please rewatch again, I believe you will not be getting Atmos on either devices ANYMORE.
I just checked on my ROku Streaming Stick+.
The description is back to showing 5.1(It was showing Atmos earlier this week). But my receiver is still showing ATMOS/DD+. And of course it's in HDR10 from the ROku.

EDIT: Although I do see an update to the ROku OS. I'm installing it now and then I'll check to see if it made any difference.

EDIT: It's still doing the same thing after the update.
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Can't wait for International version of Basic Instinct!
Shadow details?
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post #28403 of 28633 Old 11-20-2019, 05:48 PM
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Can't wait for International version of Basic Instinct!
Shadow details?
Ha! The one time we'd be okay with elevated black levels lol
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post #28404 of 28633 Old 11-20-2019, 06:18 PM
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You cheeky monkeys.


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post #28405 of 28633 Old 11-21-2019, 04:09 AM
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You cheeky monkeys.

I haven't watched "The Simpsons" in years but I'm thinking of starting but it will take me the rest of my life to watch all those episodes.
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post #28406 of 28633 Old 11-21-2019, 04:22 AM
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I just checked on my ROku Streaming Stick+.
The description is back to showing 5.1(It was showing Atmos earlier this week). But my receiver is still showing ATMOS/DD+. And of course it's in HDR10 from the ROku.

EDIT: Although I do see an update to the ROku OS. I'm installing it now and then I'll check to see if it made any difference.

EDIT: It's still doing the same thing after the update.
I'm planning on waiting until there are more episodes (almost all) available before I watch this one so maybe they'll have corrected all of this before then?
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post #28407 of 28633 Old 11-21-2019, 07:13 AM
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Another minor/major change depending on your point of view.
I still have yet to watch A new hope on Disney+
I’m so backlogged on my tv viewing!
http://epicstream.com/news/TinyDiapa...date-On-Disney

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post #28408 of 28633 Old 11-21-2019, 07:15 AM
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Another minor/major change depending on your point of view.
I still have yet to watch A new hope on Disney+
I’m so backlogged on my tv viewing!
http://epicstream.com/news/TinyDiapa...date-On-Disney
Yes, so far I’ve only watched episode 1 of Star Wars on Disney+.

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post #28409 of 28633 Old 11-21-2019, 12:54 PM
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Yes, so far I’ve only watched episode 1 of Star Wars on Disney+.


Episode 1 and 2 follow closer to the OT as far as grading goes. Episode 3 follows closer to TFA, but still “subdued” in places. TFA and RO are the “showcases” for HDR/Bright scenes IMO.
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post #28410 of 28633 Old 11-21-2019, 08:13 PM
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Master List of currently available 4k HDR titles, will be updated often.

Tangled on Disney + is another looker.
This pic doesn’t do it justice but it will give your display a nice workout.




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