HDR-Capable Displays - Page 15 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Forum Jump: 
 333Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #421 of 440 Old 04-19-2017, 10:11 AM
Member
 
hk2000's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: VIRGINIA
Posts: 103
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 62 Post(s)
Liked: 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Brad View Post
That has not been my experience with HDR at all. If anything, the highlights are brighter, punchier with more color while blacks are still deep. You shouldn't see a huge increase in the brightness of the darker areas, unless it was mastered that way or possibly mapped incorrectly. If anything, you may notice slightly more detail and banding should go away.

Are you basing this on actual HDR content or using the Sony's fake HDR mode?
Yeah, no I don't have any content mastered in HDR, but I'm basing it on HDR content from YouTube and on an article I saw that was actually praising it and explaining how it works, including a demo played on my Sony TV. Re-read what I said, I agree, it looks better in some scenes, and to my eye, worse in others, but UNREALISTIC in either case. My point is that not every frame in a movie or video needs to be perfectly clear-as in, every detail is visible. Just like in real life there are times when you actually don't see details in objects. In fact I beleive many of those movie cameras being used today are even more capable and can "see" more details than many of us can see with our own eyes under the same lighting conditions. My argument is not that HDR doesn't make clearer pictures, rather IMO, it produces less realistic pictures.
hk2000 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #422 of 440 Old 04-19-2017, 10:20 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Big Brad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Brandon, FL
Posts: 2,500
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 493 Post(s)
Liked: 628
I totally agree with your assessment that not every detail should be visible. It shouldn't. I've seen videos to which you're referring to, where everything detail is visible, and it doesn't look right. In fact, it looks more like an HDR photo more so than what I'd expect from HDR video. Obviously, the two shouldn't be intertwined.

I feel like we may getting a bit too off topic for this thread. Haha.
iatacs19 likes this.

PSN ID/XBOX Live! Gamertag: BiffCo
Big Brad is online now  
post #423 of 440 Old 04-19-2017, 10:25 AM
Advanced Member
 
Larry Rosenberg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Los Angeles, California
Posts: 557
Mentioned: 21 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 458 Post(s)
Liked: 336
Cool

Quote:
Originally Posted by hk2000 View Post
Yeah, no I don't have any content mastered in HDR, but I'm basing it on HDR content from YouTube and on an article I saw that was actually praising it and explaining how it works, including a demo played on my Sony TV. Re-read what I said, I agree, it looks better in some scenes, and to my eye, worse in others, but UNREALISTIC in either case. My point is that not every frame in a movie or video needs to be perfectly clear-as in, every detail is visible. Just like in real life there are times when you actually don't see details in objects. In fact I beleive many of those movie cameras being used today are even more capable and can "see" more details than many of us can see with our own eyes under the same lighting conditions. My argument is not that HDR doesn't make clearer pictures, rather IMO, it produces less realistic pictures.
The human eye is still far more versatile than a digital camera and can see over a wider range due to our ability to process visual information rapidly - sort of our own natural HDR. Check out: http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tut...tm#sensitivity
King Richard likes this.

-----
2016 Samsung UN65KS9800, UN55KS8500, UN49KS8000
2016 Samsung K8500 UHD BD Player x 2
2016 Samsung HW-K550/SWA-8000S 5.1
2016 Pioneer SC-LX701- AudioSource AMP100VS Atmos/DTS:X 7.1.4
Larry Rosenberg is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #424 of 440 Old 04-19-2017, 03:16 PM
Lionheart of AVS
 
King Richard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Greenstone, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 3,287
Mentioned: 86 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1797 Post(s)
Liked: 4367
Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Rosenberg View Post
The human eye is still far more versatile than a digital camera and can see over a wider range due to our ability to process visual information rapidly - sort of our own natural HDR. Check out: http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tut...tm#sensitivity

Good find Larry!

I especially found this part interesting:

Quote:
Dynamic range is one area where the eye is often seen as having a huge advantage. If we were to consider situations where our pupil opens and closes for different brightness regions, then yes, our eyes far surpass the capabilities of a single camera image (and can have a range exceeding 24 f-stops)...



[First pic: Eye Focuses on Background]
[Second pic: Eye Focuses on Foreground]
[Third pic: Our Mental Image]

One might contend that whether a camera is able to beat the human eye is inconsequential, because cameras require a different standard: they need to make realistic-looking prints. A printed photograph doesn't know which regions the eye will focus on, so every portion of a scene would need to contain maximal detail — just in case that's where we'll focus...

Overall, most of the advantages of our visual system stem from the fact that our mind is able to intelligently interpret the information from our eyes, whereas with a camera, all we have is the raw image.
Larry Rosenberg likes this.

Last edited by King Richard; 04-19-2017 at 03:20 PM.
King Richard is offline  
post #425 of 440 Old 04-20-2017, 06:33 AM
Member
 
hk2000's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: VIRGINIA
Posts: 103
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 62 Post(s)
Liked: 36
However, in such situations our eye is dynamically adjusting like a video camera, so this arguably isn't a fair comparison. Eye Focuses on Background Eye Focuses on Foreground Our Mental Image
If we were to instead consider our eye's instantaneous dynamic range (where our pupil opening is unchanged), then cameras fare much better. This would be similar to looking at one region within a scene, letting our eyes adjust, and not looking anywhere else. In that case, most estimate that our eyes can see anywhere from 10-14 f-stops of dynamic range, which definitely surpasses most compact cameras (5-7 stops), but is surprisingly similar to that of digital SLR cameras (8-11 stops).






The above is from the same article, and even though I wasn't talking about sunset & sunrise where the sun's light is hardly overwhelming,
I don't see that contradicting anything I said, in fact it supports what I said, the human eye cannot focus on a foreground portion when it is drenched by a very high brightness in the background- which was the example I gave. HDR attempts to overcome that and quite frankly botches it and results in a very unrealistic image, or at least that's what it looked like to me. In any case, if you pulled a 1000 arbitrary people and asked what the number one lacking aspect of today's entertainment, dynamic range wouldn't even register a blip. I've enjoyed old fuzzy B&W movies a 100 fold more than just about anything that comes out of Hollywood these days- all advances in technology not withstanding!

Last edited by hk2000; 04-20-2017 at 06:43 AM.
hk2000 is offline  
post #426 of 440 Old 04-20-2017, 07:35 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
puddy77's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 2,108
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1127 Post(s)
Liked: 2242
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Wilkinson View Post
To fully enjoy high dynamic-range content, you need an HDR-capable display. Here's a list of all such displays available today.

www.avsforum.com/hdr-capable-displays/
Scott, time to add an HDR10+ column: https://www.avsforum.com/hdr10-coming...msung-uhd-tvs/
puddy77 is offline  
post #427 of 440 Old 04-20-2017, 11:34 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Scott Wilkinson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Burbank, CA
Posts: 3,258
Mentioned: 95 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1881 Post(s)
Liked: 4913
Quote:
Originally Posted by puddy77 View Post
Scott, time to add an HDR10+ column: https://www.avsforum.com/hdr10-coming...msung-uhd-tvs/
Yeah, when I saw that story yesterday, I came to the same conclusion. Working on it...
puddy77 and King Richard like this.
Scott Wilkinson is offline  
post #428 of 440 Old 04-20-2017, 01:38 PM
Advanced Member
 
mercennarius's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 519
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 273 Post(s)
Liked: 133
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Brad View Post
That has not been my experience with HDR at all. If anything, the highlights are brighter, punchier with more color while blacks are still deep. You shouldn't see a huge increase in the brightness of the darker areas, unless it was mastered that way or possibly mapped incorrectly. If anything, you may notice slightly more detail and banding should go away.

Are you basing this on actual HDR content or using the Sony's fake HDR mode?
Technically the brightness should be higher on HDR content as it needs the brightness increase to take advantage of HDR content.
mercennarius is offline  
post #429 of 440 Old 04-20-2017, 03:09 PM
Lionheart of AVS
 
King Richard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Greenstone, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 3,287
Mentioned: 86 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1797 Post(s)
Liked: 4367
@hk2000

I'm sorry but I think you completely missed the point in the portion of the article that I quoted above.

(And yes, I did read the whole article - including the parts you quoted.)

The point is, if you only look at the first pic of the Sunset above, you can't make out any details at all in the dark part of the image (the foreground). Even if you were to only focus on that part of the image, staring intensely at it for several minutes to let your eyes adjust (or even covered the sun with your hand), you still wouldn't be able to make out any more details in that part of the image - because those details are simply not there to begin with.

That brings us to your argument, in which you basically said that the same would also be the case in real life. You said: "...if you were to look at a person standing in font of a bright light that is actually hitting your eyes, you're not seeing facial details' I don't care how good your eye sight... the human eye cannot focus on a foreground portion when it is drenched by a very high brightness in the background..."

The problem with your analogy is:

1. It fails to account for the fact that in real life, your eyes can (and do) focus on different parts of the scene and automatically adjust for the different light levels of those different areas. As I quoted above: "our pupil opens and closes for different brightness regions".

Therefore, in the example of the Sunset, looking at that same scene in real life (as opposed to on a TV screen), you would be able to make out tons of detail in the dark part of the scene by simply focusing your eyes on the darker part of the "image" and letting them adjust. You can't really do that with an image on a TV screen. (Incidentally, the brightness of the Sun, even at sunset, if several order of magnitude brighter than can be displayed on a TV screen - which is also something that the increased brightness range of HDR displays can bring us closer to.)

Another good example would be if I'm sitting in my living room with all the window blinds open on a bright sunny day (and all the lights off in the living room), not only am I able to see everything in my living room in full detail, but glancing out the window, I can also clearly see everything outside in full detail (even given the significant difference in brightness between the two).

For an image displayed on a TV screen, an SDR camera would be forced to focus either on the dark interior of the living room, in which case everything outside would appear "white" with no detail, or focus on the scene outside the window, in which case everything in the room would be very dark and most of the detail would be lost. Therefore, the image on the screen would not accurately reflect what I actually see in real life.



As the part of the article I quote above states: "A printed photograph doesn't know which regions the eye will focus on, so every portion of a scene would need to contain maximal detail — just in case that's where we'll focus..."

2. It also fails to account for the amazing ability of the human brain to take-in all the details in both the bright parts and the dark parts of the image, and "create" a single mental picture that takes into account all those details. In other words, the resulting image that our brains would come up with (the image we would actually end up "seeing") would actually be closer to the third Sunset image below.



HDR is not "perfect", however, it can and does bring an image closer to what we actually "see" in real life. As the part of the article I quoted states: "Overall, most of the advantages of our visual system stem from the fact that our mind is able to intelligently interpret the information from our eyes, whereas with a camera, all we have is the raw image."

The bottom line is, although HDR does have its limitations, it can and does bring the image closer to what we see in real life. You claim that it makes the image look more "fake", however, the fact is: it allows us to see all those extra details in both the bright and dark parts of the image (that are actually visible in real life) that would otherwise be completely lost.


Richard

Last edited by King Richard; 04-22-2017 at 02:18 PM.
King Richard is offline  
post #430 of 440 Old 04-22-2017, 01:30 PM
Lionheart of AVS
 
King Richard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Greenstone, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 3,287
Mentioned: 86 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1797 Post(s)
Liked: 4367
Here are a few more pictures that further illustrates the point I am trying to make:

"A picture is worth a thousand words"



















Richard
hernanu, DanBa and MerrlinT like this.

Last edited by King Richard; 04-25-2017 at 02:59 PM.
King Richard is offline  
post #431 of 440 Old 05-03-2017, 10:48 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Light Illusion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,880
Mentioned: 30 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 806 Post(s)
Liked: 1203
Quite a few (understandable) inaccuracies there - the last graphic is a very good example.
See: http://www.lightillusion.com/uhdtv.html
A corrected version is shown there, towards the end of the page.

Steve

Steve Shaw
LIGHT ILLUSION

Light Illusion is online now  
post #432 of 440 Old 05-03-2017, 02:53 PM
Lionheart of AVS
 
King Richard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Greenstone, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 3,287
Mentioned: 86 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1797 Post(s)
Liked: 4367
Quote:
Originally Posted by Light Illusion View Post
Quite a few (understandable) inaccuracies there - the last graphic is a very good example.
See: http://www.lightillusion.com/uhdtv.html
A corrected version is shown there, towards the end of the page.

Steve

Thanks Steve.

I wasn't exactly striving for "accuracy" in my last post.

I only chose a few random pics (from the internet/google) to try to illustrate the differences between HDR and SDR.

Yes, I've read the info on your site before. Thanks.


Richard

Last edited by King Richard; 05-04-2017 at 01:57 PM.
King Richard is offline  
post #433 of 440 Old 06-04-2017, 09:48 PM
Member
 
Jollygreenaudiophile2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: Maryland
Posts: 51
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 26 Post(s)
Liked: 7
My new VIZIO E series E70u-D3 is HDR,WCG and 4K and it isn't on the list. Nice display with I think 6 or more LED zones and the 2.2 HDMI thing. It was also only $1,000 at Sam's club and Walmart both.
They had adds on tv for this model in the N.E. for 2-3 weeks. The only con in 2 months is the "basic" remote. You need a Android phone or tablet version 4.1 or better and 2+ Gig of ram to actually really operate the "Smartcast" Tv. "I bought a tablet". Not to sure whats so smart about it's casting abilities either. You have to stick to a small "approved" list of apps. If it didn't come ON the tv it's NOT going to be supported in any way, shape or form! Customer service was really sweet whilst telling me that too!
Jollygreenaudiophile2 is offline  
post #434 of 440 Old 06-06-2017, 12:54 PM
AVS Forum Club Gold
 
Ian_Currie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Holliston, MA
Posts: 1,738
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 328 Post(s)
Liked: 99
I have a question that I've been trying to find an answer to but have failed so far and am wondering if anyone here can shed some light on it (no pun intended).

My Panasonic UHD player has Amazon and Netflix apps that support HDR but I can see that I am only getting 8 bits (instead of 10 like you would get from a UHD bluray). Is HDR possible with 8 bits?

One of the reasons I ask is that when my display (a JVC RS4500) sees an HDR signal (at least a 10 bit one) it goes into 'HDR' mode. It doesn't do anything different when streaming HDR 8 bit (even though the projector's info screen reports HDR).

Thanks in advance.
Ian_Currie is offline  
post #435 of 440 Old 10-09-2017, 10:26 AM
AVS Forum Club Gold
 
Paul H's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Elk Grove, California,USA
Posts: 1,100
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 60 Post(s)
Liked: 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Wilkinson View Post
To fully enjoy high dynamic-range content, you need an HDR-capable display. Here's a list of all such displays available today.

www.avsforum.com/hdr-capable-displays/
Regarding the first model posted, LG "EG9600" in "the list of displays" link:

When I bought my LG EG9600-UB variant, I found it supported HDR10 through HDMI devices like a UHD Blu-ray player.
I took a snapshot of the following note on an RTINGS.com review site at the time.

Click image for larger version

Name:	EG9600-UB vs EG9600-UA copy.jpg
Views:	68
Size:	116.7 KB
ID:	2294976

Is this accurate?

Thanks for your time.

Avatar: IMAX Header
BD 3D, BD, HD DVD, DVD collection

Last edited by Paul H; 10-09-2017 at 10:30 AM.
Paul H is offline  
post #436 of 440 Old 11-14-2017, 02:52 PM
Member
 
Sonisame's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Posts: 182
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11 Post(s)
Liked: 16
Send a message via Skype™ to Sonisame
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Wilkinson View Post
To fully enjoy high dynamic-range content, you need an HDR-capable display. Here's a list of all such displays available today.

www.avsforum.com/hdr-capable-displays/
Hi

The link is not working.

Oops! That page can’t be found.
It looks like nothing was found at this location.
Sonisame is offline  
post #437 of 440 Old 05-05-2019, 05:14 AM
Senior Member
 
DD/DTS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Location: 🏡
Posts: 286
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 94 Post(s)
Liked: 847
When clicking on https://www.avsforum.com/hdr-capable-displays/ provided by Scott Wilkinson in Post#1

I get this -

Oops! That page can’t be found.
It looks like nothing was found at this location.

Main:🎭Denon AVR-S740H/Sony UBP-X800/Sanyo 55" 4K UHD HDR/Paradigm Cinema 100 x6/Cinema Center 1/Cinema Sub x2/CM-4228/7778/7600/LTE filter/RG-6 Quad Shield coax. Bedroom:📺Samsung 42" plasma/Samsung HT-J4500/Aluratek ADTB01F HD DVR. PC:🖥Dell Optiplex 780/intel Q9650/16gb DDR3/GT710/SB Audigy FX/Logitech X-530/RCA 32" HDTV. GamingConsoles:🎮 PSone/PS2/PS3/PS4/Xbox/Xbox360/Xbox OneX / *Jerry Austin*
DD/DTS is offline  
post #438 of 440 Old 05-14-2019, 11:48 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
noah katz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Mountain View, CA USA
Posts: 23,114
Mentioned: 15 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2161 Post(s)
Liked: 794
same here

Noah
noah katz is offline  
post #439 of 440 Old 05-17-2019, 03:22 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
turls's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Central IL
Posts: 4,985
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 512 Post(s)
Liked: 228
The OP has 1 post in the past 6+ months. I'm guessing he isn't active here anymore so instead of letting the information get more outdated it was deleted.

Matt
turls is offline  
post #440 of 440 Old 09-02-2019, 09:28 AM
Newbie
 
Quantum TV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Posts: 7
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 1
For those on more of an average budget hisense is doing amazing things with the H9F. https://youtu.be/U8Gtbpj_Wdc
Quantum TV is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply High Dynamic Range (HDR) & Wide Color Gamut (WCG)

Tags
hdr , lcd , oled , projector

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off