HDR-Capable Displays - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 440 Old 02-19-2016, 09:00 AM
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Originally Posted by atodzia View Post
I have never used the MGO app for 4K or downloaded a paid for 4K movie. Just never liked the idea for the price of the movies. I don't have the WD passport drive.
Then how could you possibly make a judgment about HDR? Your set has a 10 bit panel. Trust me on this, you're getting HDR from your K-8500 Blu Ray player with the parameters I set out. You do have the 4K 8500 player, right?
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post #32 of 440 Old 02-19-2016, 09:00 AM
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Originally Posted by ahro View Post
It's frustrating trying to convince people about HDR and the HU series. I was in Best Buy yesterday and watched some HDR material on the JS9000. It looked almost exactly the same as I'm getting from the HU9000. If your back light is at 20 and contrast at 100, plus you see better contrast and WCG, you're getting HDR.
To me that's because neither set can do it properly due to both being edgelit.
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post #33 of 440 Old 02-19-2016, 09:06 AM
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Originally Posted by ahro View Post
Then how could you possibly make a judgment about HDR? Trust me on this, you're getting HDR from your K-8500 Blu Ray player with the parameters I set out. You do have the 4K 8500 player, right?

Yes, I do have the K8500 player and the pic looks great. Not sure how much better the new TVs with HDR look but I definitely am not in the market for a new TV.

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post #34 of 440 Old 02-19-2016, 09:11 AM
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Originally Posted by ttnuagmada View Post
To me that's because neither set can do it properly due to both being edgelit.
There are degrees of HDR, true. But what does properly mean? Is that 1000 nits or 10,000?
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post #35 of 440 Old 02-19-2016, 09:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atodzia View Post
Yes, I do have the K8500 player and the pic looks great. Not sure how much better the new TVs with HDR look but I definitely am not in the market for a new TV.
You DO have HDR now, you don't need a new set. A new set might have more intense HDR, but some are even lowering them because they are too intense.

OK, I'm really done with the subject now.
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post #36 of 440 Old 02-19-2016, 09:27 AM
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SUMMARY:

1) Get a 2016 LG OLED if you can afford it.

2) Get the Philips 8600 if you want the lowest price and don't care about 3D.

3) Maybe get an LG Super UHD LCD if it turns out they did a miraculous job with their edge-lit IPS panels (although I wouldn't hold my breath).
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post #37 of 440 Old 02-19-2016, 09:28 AM
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Im going to have to make a trip to really see this HDR in person, the main photo on the front page reminds me of photography and letting the shutter remain open longer to capture more visible light in a low light scene to make it seem like its a brighter day lol...

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post #38 of 440 Old 02-19-2016, 09:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ahro View Post
There are degrees of HDR, true. But what does properly mean? Is that 1000 nits or 10,000?
I think the contrast ratio has more to due with it. how impressive is a 1000 nit specular highlight when anything black in that quarter of the screen can only go down to .25 nits? (or 1nit in the case of LG's IPS edge-lits *shudder*). UHDP cert calls for 1000nit whites and .05 nit blacks. An edge-lit cannot do that unless you're being very loose with those measurements.

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post #39 of 440 Old 02-19-2016, 09:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Scott Wilkinson View Post
In addition, JVC and Sony introduced HDR-capable projectors at CEDIA 2015.

Projectors

Question about the projectors, and HDR in general... I thought the idea of HDR was to allow very high brightness levels while maintaining fairly dark blacks. The JVC models are 1700-1900 lumens. The "cheaper" Sony is 1800 lumens. Only the $60K Sony VPL-VW5000ES has 5000 lumens to boast. If a projector (or TV) doesn't have high peak brightness, where is the benefit?
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post #40 of 440 Old 02-19-2016, 10:08 AM
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I really hope the LG 86UH9500 turns out great and is priced competitively with the Sony 75X940D. Getting HDR10 plus DV would be awesome plus the size (I want >80" on my upgrade) are ideal features for me if the picture quality delivers.
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post #41 of 440 Old 02-19-2016, 10:09 AM
 
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I can lobby all day that my LG LCD from 2008 has HDR because the Samsung UHD player is sending the Rec 2020 header for both SDR and HDR incorrectly. It maxes out the backlight and contrast on my JS9500 and JS9000 as well as the LG. I guess my 2008 tv gets HDR too! Lol nope!

Quote:
Originally Posted by ahro View Post
It's frustrating trying to convince people about HDR and the HU series. I was in Best Buy yesterday and watched some HDR material on the JS9000. It looked almost exactly the same as I'm getting from the HU9000. If your back light is at 20 and contrast at 100, plus you see better contrast and WCG, you're getting HDR.

Why not go to the 3500 evolutionary kit thread and ask about your specific model?. But I believe both of you are getting HDR, if I remember correctly.

OK, my last post on the subject, but I hope the HU9000 will be added by Scott to the list of HDR capable sets.
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post #42 of 440 Old 02-19-2016, 10:10 AM
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Scott,

Since we are including edge-lit LED/LCD's with IPS panels, you might as well add Sony's 2015 X900C. It's HDR10 compatible like the rest of their XBR sets.
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post #43 of 440 Old 02-19-2016, 10:21 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Scott Wilkinson View Post
Ah, very good. I'll add those tomorrow...well, maybe except for the Hisense 8K. I'll have to verify that it's an actual product that will actually be for sale in the near future.

UPDATE: I just looked at the HDGuru piece, and they seem more like vaporware than real products. As it says, "Prior to the show, Westinghouse said it expected the models to begin appearing in stores during the third quarter of 2016. That time frame appears less definite now." In my experience, that usually means next year or maybe even not at all. Also, Westinghouse's Brett Hunt is quoted as saying, "For 2016 we will continue with our current line of 4K UHD TVs that will be available at Target and Best Buy."
Fair enough. Most of these are vaporware at this point and most manufactures have a habit of promising and not delievering. For instance, there is some doubt we will get the Panny DX900 in the US any time soon.

One mistake you have though is on the Sharp's.

There is the flat 70N9100U and the curved 65N9000U both offering HDR.

Sharp AQUOS N9100U Series – 4K Smart AQUOS TV
SPECTROS™ | Quantum Dot
High Dynamic Range
Full Array Local Dimming
Dynamic Gamma
Wide Color Gamut
Built-In Apps
AquoMotion™
AquoDimming™
Revelation™ Upscaler
dbx-tv® Award Winning Sound
App Store & Web Browser
4K Media Player & Receiver
2x2 Dual-Band Wi-Fi 802.11ac
MSRP 70” Class LC-70N9100U: $3,299.99



Sharp AQUOS N9000U Series – 4K Curved Smart AQUOS 3D TV
SPECTROS™ | Quantum Dot
High Dynamic Range
Full Array Local Dimming
Dynamic Gamma
Wide Color Gamut
Built-In Apps
AquoMotion™
AquoDimming™
Revelation™ Upscaler
dbx-tv® Award Winning Sound
App Store & Web Browser
4K Media Player & Receiver
2x2 Dual-Band Wi-Fi 802.11ac
MSRP 65” Class LC-65N9000U: $2,999.99

Read more at http://www.flatpanelshd.com/news.php...zjQay7DGTlk.99
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post #44 of 440 Old 02-19-2016, 10:25 AM
 
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Originally Posted by 6athome View Post
Philips 8600 with Dolby Vision,HDR,QDOT ,WCG and FALD for a 65 inch at a list of 1699.00 looks good for a black Friday poor man TV.
I still seriously doubt this is true FALD. The pics they show for the 8600 US model are just so thin to be FALD. I guess they could be using the new thin back light by AUO, but I though that was the one Sony was using in the X930D.
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post #45 of 440 Old 02-19-2016, 10:29 AM
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Originally Posted by sytech View Post
Fair enough. Most of these are vaporware at this point and most manufactures have a habit of promising and not delievering. For instance, there is some doubt we will get the Panny DX900 in the US any time soon.

One mistake you have though is on the Sharp's.

There is the flat 70N9100U and the curved 65N9000U both offering HDR.

Sharp AQUOS N9100U Series – 4K Smart AQUOS TV
SPECTROS™ | Quantum Dot
High Dynamic Range
Full Array Local Dimming
Dynamic Gamma
Wide Color Gamut
Built-In Apps
AquoMotion™
AquoDimming™
Revelation™ Upscaler
dbx-tv® Award Winning Sound
App Store & Web Browser
4K Media Player & Receiver
2x2 Dual-Band Wi-Fi 802.11ac
MSRP 70” Class LC-70N9100U: $3,299.99



Sharp AQUOS N9000U Series – 4K Curved Smart AQUOS 3D TV
SPECTROS™ | Quantum Dot
High Dynamic Range
Full Array Local Dimming
Dynamic Gamma
Wide Color Gamut
Built-In Apps
AquoMotion™
AquoDimming™
Revelation™ Upscaler
dbx-tv® Award Winning Sound
App Store & Web Browser
4K Media Player & Receiver
2x2 Dual-Band Wi-Fi 802.11ac
MSRP 65” Class LC-65N9000U: $2,999.99

Read more at http://www.flatpanelshd.com/news.php...zjQay7DGTlk.99
Plus the N8100u and the N8000u both have HDR as well.
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post #46 of 440 Old 02-19-2016, 10:33 AM
 
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Originally Posted by AVmanic View Post
Plus the N8100u and the N8000u both have HDR as well.
They are not FALD though, but I see he is including edge lit. I only concentrate on FALD and OLED for HDR, since I believe HDR on edgelit sets is suspect.
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post #47 of 440 Old 02-19-2016, 10:35 AM
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If RGB full is 0-255

And RGB Limited is 16-235, What is the range of contrast of HDR?

Looked around, no numbers to be found....so far.

Just asking,

Doug k

Imaging Science Foundation Technician ( Retired )
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post #48 of 440 Old 02-19-2016, 10:48 AM
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Originally Posted by RedheadMurray View Post
I can lobby all day that my LG LCD from 2008 has HDR because the Samsung UHD player is sending the Rec 2020 header for both SDR and HDR incorrectly. It maxes out the backlight and contrast on my JS9500 and JS9000 as well as the LG. I guess my 2008 tv gets HDR too! Lol nope!
The JS9500 uses the same One Connect box that is the SEK3500. To say that's not capable of processing HDR is saying that the JS9500 can't either. Of course there's always the matter of what happens between the SEK3500 processing the input and actually displaying it on the screen, but the hardware is certainly present. If you want to strengthen your case, try doing a little research first before firing off volatile opinions.
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post #49 of 440 Old 02-19-2016, 10:55 AM
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Originally Posted by ltd76gold View Post
And RGB Limited is 16-235, What is the range of contrast of HDR?

Looked around, no numbers to be found....so far.

Just asking,

Doug k
According to wikipedia's rec 2020 page:
10-bits per sample Rec. 2020 uses video levels where the black level is defined as code 64 and the nominal peak is defined as code 940. Codes 0-3 and 1,020-1,023 are used for the timing reference. Codes 4 through 63 provide video data below the black level while codes 941 through 1,019 provide video data above the nominal peak.

12-bits per sample Rec. 2020 uses video levels where the black level is defined as code 256 and the nominal peak is defined as code 3760. Codes 0-15 and 4,080-4,095 are used for the timing reference. Codes 16 through 255 provide video data below the black level while codes 3,761 through 4,079 provide video data above the nominal peak.
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post #50 of 440 Old 02-19-2016, 11:40 AM
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The EF9600 does do HDR over HDMI if you have the UB model (equal to the ZD model in EU). If it has the 4.20.60->4.20.75 FW it does have HDMI 2.0a and does to HDR.

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post #51 of 440 Old 02-19-2016, 12:09 PM
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It would be interesting to see all the displays and projectors that sport the HDR feature listed in order of peak luminance (nits) from highest to lowest.
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post #52 of 440 Old 02-19-2016, 12:58 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Hazama View Post
The JS9500 uses the same One Connect box that is the SEK3500. To say that's not capable of processing HDR is saying that the JS9500 can't either. Of course there's always the matter of what happens between the SEK3500 processing the input and actually displaying it on the screen, but the hardware is certainly present. If you want to strengthen your case, try doing a little research first before firing off volatile opinions.
You don't have Quantum Dots. Once Samsung confirms that the 2013/2014 sets do HDR then I'll believe it.... is that really such a ridiculous statement to make?
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post #53 of 440 Old 02-19-2016, 01:01 PM
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The 2016 Samsung KS7000 is missing in the list. A SUHD TV with HDR10
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post #54 of 440 Old 02-19-2016, 01:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ltd76gold View Post
And RGB Limited is 16-235, What is the range of contrast of HDR?

Looked around, no numbers to be found....so far.

Just asking,

Doug k
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hazama View Post
According to wikipedia's rec 2020 page:
10-bits per sample Rec. 2020 uses video levels where the black level is defined as code 64 and the nominal peak is defined as code 940. Codes 0-3 and 1,020-1,023 are used for the timing reference. Codes 4 through 63 provide video data below the black level while codes 941 through 1,019 provide video data above the nominal peak.

12-bits per sample Rec. 2020 uses video levels where the black level is defined as code 256 and the nominal peak is defined as code 3760. Codes 0-15 and 4,080-4,095 are used for the timing reference. Codes 16 through 255 provide video data below the black level while codes 3,761 through 4,079 provide video data above the nominal peak.
The initial question is worded a bit awkwardly. If you were looking for an explanation of what code values are used for 10-bit and 12-bit video then Hazama has answered the question. However, these code values by themselves don't tell you the "range of contrast of HDR". The maximum "range of contrast of HDR (content)" is dictated by the capabilities of the mastering display used to grade that content. The actual "range of contrast of HDR (content)" is a subset of the maximum range and is determined by the director/color gradeist as they are the ones that ultimately choose what the brightest white and darkest black used in the film are. Then you have the range of contrast that actually gets reproduced on your display. If your display's capabilities match or exceed the dynamic range actually used in the content then the range of contrast you see on your display would match that of the content itself (provided it is properly calibrated). If your display's capabilities fall short of being able to reproduce the full range of contrast in the content then you'll get luminance levels that are either remapped or clipped to match the capabilities of your display.

Because all of these things are variables, it was important to come up with a performance standard that could be used to try to ensure that what the viewer is seeing at home is as close as possible to the director's intent (i.e. what was on the mastering monitor when the content was graded). That is the main reason for having an Ultra HD Premium certification.
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post #55 of 440 Old 02-19-2016, 01:54 PM
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Sorry about the awkward question...

And I appreciate your response.

Since black is dictated by any absence of light and white can be limited only by the brightness our eyes will accept, HDR will, in a sense, be an expansion of gradients between black and white. When aligned or calibrated to reproduce the film content, the display will have the ability to sample smaller increments of variations?

I do believe that I understand the concept.

More data= finer definition of chroma.

Still, if displays are limited only by media available, it would not seem that current films available and therefore already mastered, would not be able to be remastered to this new format?

Thanks again
Doug k
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post #56 of 440 Old 02-19-2016, 02:12 PM - Thread Starter
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Okay, here's what I've learned from Samsung about the HU9000 (2014) and F9000 (2013): These sets, and any others that can and have been updated with the SEK-3500 One Connect Box, can accept and process an HDR10 signal, which is ultimately dithered to 8 bits for the panel itself, which has 8-bit precision. This results in an HDR image that is better than any display without 10-to-8-bit dithering of an HDR signal, but in my opinion, not as good as the image rendered by a true 10-bit panel. The only Samsung TVs with true 10-bit panels are the 2015 and 2016 SUHD models.

Admittedly, this is a somewhat gray area of HDR, but I've decided to limit this list to displays with 10-bit panels.
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post #57 of 440 Old 02-19-2016, 02:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Wilkinson View Post
Okay, here's what I've learned from Samsung about the HU9000 (2014) and F9000 (2013): These sets, and any others that can and have been updated with the SEK-3500 One Connect Box, can accept and process an HDR10 signal, which is ultimately dithered to 8 bits for the panel itself, which has 8-bit precision. This results in an HDR image that is better than any display without 10-to-8-bit dithering of an HDR signal, but in my opinion, not as good as the image rendered by a true 10-bit panel. The only Samsung TVs with true 10-bit panels are the 2015 and 2016 SUHD models.

Admittedly, this is a somewhat gray area of HDR, but I've decided to limit this list to displays with 10-bit panels.
Out of much respect for you and all your work. I don't want to say Sammy was wrong. But 10 bit test have been ran on the HU series and it has passed. Even the HU replacement panels are cataloged as 10 bit.
I myself have ran the test and it comes back 10bit. But all in all still great news and thank you for all your great reviews and pod cast...
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post #58 of 440 Old 02-19-2016, 02:22 PM
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Scott can you put a end to the FALD question with the Philips 8600. You did list it in the FALD but their is still people questioning this. The articles I have read on this TV say FALD.
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post #59 of 440 Old 02-19-2016, 02:49 PM
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Also out of respect, the HU9000 is a true 10 bit panel. This has been discussed ad nauseum on other threads and the HU9000 IS INDEED a 10 bit panel. and as I remember this was verified by (apparently) another Sammy engineer. If you ever have to replace the panel. you pay for a 10 BIT PANEL. And if you take it apart, the part number conforms to 10 bit panels. I think at this point it is indisputable that the HU9000 is 10 bit and I hope you will include it in your HDR capable sets.

It is NOT dithered 8 bit, and, frankly it is unfair to exclude it. Maybe place an asterisk next to it indicating you are unclear about it, but I would bet the farm it is 10 bit, since I've done a lots of reading on the subject.
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HENRY

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Last edited by ahro; 02-19-2016 at 03:01 PM.
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post #60 of 440 Old 02-19-2016, 02:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 6athome View Post
Scott can you put a end to the FALD question with the Philips 8600. You did list it in the FALD but their is still people questioning this. The articles I have read on this TV say FALD.
Better to wait until they actually come out than speculate and spread possible misinformation.

This happens after every CES here on AVS. The general rule has been that if something is priced too good to be true, then it probably is. Which is why I'd be highly suspect of any "Philips" or "Sharp" TVs that sound great on paper.
Am I the only one who remembers when everyone here was praising the new Toshiba 4K FALD models as giant-killers before they were even out? They were bad TVs and Toshiba ended up giving up on making TVs.

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Reply High Dynamic Range (HDR) & Wide Color Gamut (WCG)

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