HDR-Capable Displays - Page 3 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #61 of 440 Old 02-19-2016, 02:54 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by 6athome View Post
Scott can you put a end to the FALD question with the Philips 8600. You did list it in the FALD but their is still people questioning this. The articles I have read on this TV say FALD.
My Philips contact informed me in no uncertain terms that it is FALD. That's all I have to go on, and I have no reason to doubt it.
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post #62 of 440 Old 02-19-2016, 02:56 PM
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Originally Posted by ltd76gold View Post
Sorry about the awkward question...

And I appreciate your response.

Since black is dictated by any absence of light and white can be limited only by the brightness our eyes will accept, HDR will, in a sense, be an expansion of gradients between black and white. When aligned or calibrated to reproduce the film content, the display will have the ability to sample smaller increments of variations?

I do believe that I understand the concept.

More data= finer definition of chroma.

Still, if displays are limited only by media available, it would not seem that current films available and therefore already mastered, would not be able to be remastered to this new format?

Thanks again
Doug k
The dynamic range we are talking about when we talk about displays and content does not extend all the way from true black (absense of light) to the limits of what a human being can see without permanent eye damage. The dynamic range we have been working with in displays and content has always been (and will continue to be for quite some time) much smaller than that. It rarely achieves true black and it certainly doesn't come anywhere near the limits of what we can perceive. So, there is more to HDR than just smoother gradations. They are actually boosting light output capabilities as well. And not just for white, but for all colors within the display's gamut, which is likewise being increased to cover a greater percentage of the spectrum humans are capable of perceiving.
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post #63 of 440 Old 02-19-2016, 03:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by AVmanic View Post
Out of much respect for you and all your work. I don't want to say Sammy was wrong. But 10 bit test have been ran on the HU series and it has passed. Even the HU replacement panels are cataloged as 10 bit.
I myself have ran the test and it comes back 10bit. But all in all still great news and thank you for all your great reviews and pod cast...
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Originally Posted by ahro View Post
Also out of respect, the HU9000 is a true 10 bit panel. This has been discussed ad nauseum on other threads and the HU9000 IS INDEED a 10 bit panel. and as I remember this was verified by (apparently) another Sammy engineer. If you ever have to replace the panel. you pay for a 10 BIT PANEL. And if you take it apart, the part number conforms to 10 bit panels. I think at this point it is indisputable that the HU9000 is 10 bit and I hope you will include it in your HDR capable sets.

It is NOT dithered 8 bit, and, frankly it is unfair to exclude it.
Well, all I can really go on is what the manufacturer tells me, and I spoke with a fairly technical person at Samsung about this. However, I will continue to pursue it with other contacts at Samsung...if it is indeed a 10-bit panel, then I agree it should be included in this list. But unless I see irrefutable proof of this with my own eyes, I must go with what the manufacturer tells me.

One other question for you: what is the peak light output if the HU9000? Also, is it FALD or edgelit?
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post #64 of 440 Old 02-19-2016, 03:06 PM
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Originally Posted by ahro View Post
Also out of respect, the HU9000 is a true 10 bit panel. This has been discussed ad nauseum on other threads and the HU9000 IS INDEED a 10 bit panel. and as I remember this was verified by (apparently) another Sammy engineer. If you ever have to replace the panel. you pay for a 10 BIT PANEL. And if you take it apart, the part number conforms to 10 bit panels. I think at this point it is indisputable that the HU9000 is 10 bit and I hope you will include it in your HDR capable sets.

It is NOT dithered 8 bit, and, frankly it is unfair to exclude it. Maybe place an asterisk next to it indicating you are unclear about it, but I would bet the farm it is 10 bit, since I've done a lots of reading on the subject.
Your correct with my PC and high end graphics card it tested as 12bit dithered and 10bit native. It wouldn't do 12bit dithered of it wasn't a 10 bit panel. It would do 10bit dithered making it an 8 bit panel.
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post #65 of 440 Old 02-19-2016, 03:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Scott Wilkinson View Post
Well, all I can really go on is what the manufacturer tells me, and I spoke with a fairly technical person at Samsung about this. However, I will continue to pursue it with other contacts at Samsung...if it is indeed a 10-bit panel, then I agree it should be included in this list. But unless I see irrefutable proof of this with my own eyes, I must go with what the manufacturer tells me.

One other question for you: what is the peak light output if the HU9000? Also, is it FALD or edgelit?
It is edgelit. Please read what I added to my post that you quoted. The part number for the HU9000 panel is a 10 bit part number (I added other material to that post as well). Thanks.
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post #66 of 440 Old 02-19-2016, 03:44 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ahro View Post
It is edgelit. Please read what I added to my post that you quoted. The part number for the HU9000 panel is a 10 bit part number (I added other material to that post as well). Thanks.
I have a query out to the principal engineer of TV R&D at Samsung Korea; if anyone at the company would know, it's him! I hope you understand that I need to verify this with Samsung...

Do you know the peak light output of the HU9000 from a window and also full white field?
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post #67 of 440 Old 02-19-2016, 03:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Scott Wilkinson View Post
I have a query out to the principal engineer of TV R&D at Samsung Korea; if anyone at the company would know, it's him! I hope you understand that I need to verify this with Samsung...

Do you know the peak light output of the HU9000 from a window and also full white field?


I don't know, but my understanding it is comparable to the JS9000.

In the very beginning there were a few 8 bit panels produced, but Samsung quickly switched to 10 bit panels for it's HUs. I don't know the reason for this, perhaps because they were selling some sets for 6-7 thousand dollars. I trust the principal engineer of TV R&D will verify this.
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post #68 of 440 Old 02-19-2016, 04:00 PM
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Originally Posted by ahro View Post
I don't know, but my understanding it is comparable to the JS9000
Pattern test its 534 nits. From my meter. But that was from my Rec.709 cal not full HDR brightness. The JS9000 is only 600 nits.
In the end it doesn't matter because we can play HDR meta data so leave that dead dog die.
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post #69 of 440 Old 02-19-2016, 04:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by AVmanic View Post
Pattern test its 534 nits. From my meter. But that was from my Rec.709 cal not full HDR brightness. The JS9000 is only 600 nits.
In the end it doesn't matter because we can play HDR meta data so leave that dead dog die.
Is that reading from a white window or full white field?
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post #70 of 440 Old 02-19-2016, 04:17 PM
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Originally Posted by AVmanic View Post
<snip>The JS9000 is only 600 nits.
In the end it doesn't matter because we can play HDR meta data so leave that dead dog die.
I just would like it included in the HDR compatible sets where it belongs.
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post #71 of 440 Old 02-19-2016, 04:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Scott Wilkinson View Post
Is that reading from a white window or full white field?
White window and also checkerboard pattern.
I know its not as bright as my JS9500 was but color and contrast are still a lot better with HDR content on the HU. Than none HDR Media.
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post #72 of 440 Old 02-19-2016, 04:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ahro View Post
I just would like it included in the HDR compatible sets where it belongs.
Note that I make a distinction between "HDR-compatible" and "HDR-capable." In my definition, HDR-compatible means the display can accept an HDR signal but not necessarily render the image in full HDR, while HDR-capable means the display can fully render HDR images. This list includes displays that fall into the latter definition, which, in my opinion, means the panel must have a native precision of 10 bits or more. If my engineering contact at Samsung verifies that the HU9000 has a 10-bit native panel (which I suspect he will, given all the research you and others have done on this question), then I will definitely add it to the list.
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post #73 of 440 Old 02-19-2016, 05:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Scott Wilkinson View Post
Note that I make a distinction between "HDR-compatible" and "HDR-capable." In my definition, HDR-compatible means the display can accept an HDR signal but not necessarily render the image in full HDR, while HDR-capable means the display can fully render HDR images. This list includes displays that fall into the latter definition, which, in my opinion, means the panel must have a native precision of 10 bits or more. If my engineering contact at Samsung verifies that the HU9000 has a 10-bit native panel (which I suspect he will, given all the research you and others have done on this question), then I will definitely add it to the list.
Thanks, much appreciated. That's all we can ask.
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post #74 of 440 Old 02-19-2016, 05:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ray0414 View Post
Scott,

I do see 1 mistake in your list. You list the JS7000 as a FALD tv. while it is direct lit, it doesnt have local dimming therefore cant be considered a FALD tv.
I just confirmed with the principal engineer of TV R&D at Samsung that the JS7000 is, in fact, FALD. It has many fewer dimming zones than, say, the JS9500—they won't say how many zones the JS7000 has—but it does have full-array backlighting with local dimming, so it is, in fact, FALD.
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post #75 of 440 Old 02-19-2016, 05:55 PM
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Originally Posted by ttnuagmada View Post
I've yet to see anyone explain just exactly how an edge-lit LCD can meet the UHDP spec. The only way this would be possible is if they are measuring on/off contrast while allowing for dynamic contrast. They sure aren't using an ANSI pattern.

It looks like OLED is currently going to be the only way to get HDR10 and DV while also meeting UHDP spec. Also, LG doing HDR with edge-lit IPS is a complete joke.
The FALD non edge lit TV's (Vizio for example) seem to meet and exceed the UHDP spec. It seems like OLED was given a special case to allow it to get the branding, since it can't meet the high end of nits.
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post #76 of 440 Old 02-19-2016, 05:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Scott Wilkinson View Post
I just confirmed with the principal engineer of TV R&D at Samsung that the JS7000 is, in fact, FALD. It has many fewer dimming zones than, say, the JS9500—they won't say how many zones the JS7000 has—but it does have full-array backlighting with local dimming, so it is, in fact, FALD.

That is certainly good to know Scott.

Have you confirmed that it is a 10 bit panel? Everyone on avs is under the impression that the js7000 is an 8 bit panel. I believe at 1 point samsung said it was only 8 bit.

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post #77 of 440 Old 02-19-2016, 06:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ray0414 View Post
Have you confirmed that it is a 10 bit panel? Everyone on avs is under the impression that the js7000 is an 8 bit panel. I believe at 1 point samsung said it was only 8 bit.
I haven't confirmed that; I assumed that all SUHD models use 10-bit panels. I will confirm this, but I probably won't get a response until next week.
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post #78 of 440 Old 02-19-2016, 06:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Scott Wilkinson View Post
Note that I make a distinction between "HDR-compatible" and "HDR-capable." In my definition, HDR-compatible means the display can accept an HDR signal but not necessarily render the image in full HDR, while HDR-capable means the display can fully render HDR images. This list includes displays that fall into the latter definition, which, in my opinion, means the panel must have a native precision of 10 bits or more. If my engineering contact at Samsung verifies that the HU9000 has a 10-bit native panel (which I suspect he will, given all the research you and others have done on this question), then I will definitely add it to the list.
Hi Scott,

Likewise since according to the part number for my 78HU9000 panel it is described as "This BN95-01688A is a Genuine BRAND NEW Samsung LCD Display Panel, AMLCD, CY-VH078FSLV1V, 10 Bit,"

See attached thumbnail for further details and here is the link to the TV Service Parts site...

http://www.tvserviceparts.com/BN95-01688A.html

If you require further evidence, there is some 3rd party software available that can be run on a PC that will provide the bit depth of the panel it is connected to. I would be happy to hunt it down and provide a screen print of the results if need be.

Thanks for the work you have put into this thread... and putting up with the wrath from the proud owners of the HU / SEK combo!

Emotional bunch aren't we eh!


Cheers!
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post #79 of 440 Old 02-19-2016, 07:09 PM
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Originally Posted by AVmanic View Post
Your correct with my PC and high end graphics card it tested as 12bit dithered and 10bit native. It wouldn't do 12bit dithered of it wasn't a 10 bit panel. It would do 10bit dithered making it an 8 bit panel.
Would a 10bit dithered 8bit panel be hdr compatible ?

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post #80 of 440 Old 02-19-2016, 07:15 PM
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Scott, any chance of adding an HDR area to the forum?
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post #81 of 440 Old 02-19-2016, 07:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Musician View Post
Hi Scott,

Likewise since according to the part number for my 78HU9000 panel it is described as "This BN95-01688A is a Genuine BRAND NEW Samsung LCD Display Panel, AMLCD, CY-VH078FSLV1V, 10 Bit,"

See attached thumbnail for further details and here is the link to the TV Service Parts site...

http://www.tvserviceparts.com/BN95-01688A.html

If you require further evidence, there is some 3rd party software available that can be run on a PC that will provide the bit depth of the panel it is connected to. I would be happy to hunt it down and provide a screen print of the results if need be.

Thanks for the work you have put into this thread... and putting up with the wrath from the proud owners of the HU / SEK combo!

Emotional bunch aren't we eh!


Cheers!
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Originally Posted by RedheadMurray View Post
So Samsung has already confirmed its and 8 bit dithering to 10 bit and y'all call BS. Now you're asking Scott to ask another engineer from Samsung? I can't wait to hear the head of R&D to say the same and y'all call him a liar. Who cares if it's on a list or not? Y'all are too funny!
Again please see HU replacement panel posted by @Musician the HU panel replacement and the one that comes in the HU9000 is a 10 bit panel. Please look at link.
http://www.tvserviceparts.com/BN95-01688A.html

And yes this is the Samsung HU9000 replacement panel aka Samsung so are you going to say that Samsung is wrong in there listing for the panel.
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post #82 of 440 Old 02-19-2016, 08:50 PM - Thread Starter
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Scott, any chance of adding an HDR area to the forum?
I've been asking for this for a while; perhaps if you and others join me in this request, it might happen. Anyone else who would like to see a dedicated HDR subforum, please post a comment to that effect in this thread.
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post #83 of 440 Old 02-19-2016, 09:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Emotional bunch aren't we eh!
As I've come to know so well here! Passion is a good thing, as long as it's tempered with respect...
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post #84 of 440 Old 02-19-2016, 10:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Frank Scholte View Post
The 2016 Samsung KS7000 is missing in the list. A SUHD TV with HDR10
The list of Samsung TVs in the OP is the list I was sent by Samsung. I looked up the KS7000, which seems to be a European model, along with the KS7500. I'll verify that with Samsung and then add them to the list. Thanks!
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post #85 of 440 Old 02-19-2016, 10:47 PM
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Originally Posted by hernanu View Post
The FALD non edge lit TV's (Vizio for example) seem to meet and exceed the UHDP spec. It seems like OLED was given a special case to allow it to get the branding, since it can't meet the high end of nits.
FALD sets can for the most part, produce convincing static contrast in most cases. Edge-lits cant do that. They do little more than dim the black bars. As for OLED, in a dark room environment, its HDR is going to be far more convincing than even a FALD set, even at half the nits, due to it's actual dynamic range. It may only call for 540 nits on the OLEDs, but you're missing the part where it calls for a 1,000,000:1 contrast ratio. IMO the LCD's are the special case if they're letting them get away with bogus contrast numbers on edge-lit sets.
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post #86 of 440 Old 02-20-2016, 01:26 AM
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Originally Posted by hernanu View Post
The FALD non edge lit TV's (Vizio for example) seem to meet and exceed the UHDP spec. It seems like OLED was given a special case to allow it to get the branding, since it can't meet the high end of nits.
You could also look at it another way and say LCD is a special case since it can't match the absolute black level that OLED is capable of. The spec doesn't specifically refer to either display technology. If a manufacturer introduced a LCD based TV that could achieve the much lower black level and corresponding contrast ratio, then it would not have to produce such a high peak luminance either.
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post #87 of 440 Old 02-20-2016, 01:43 AM
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The samsung rep is on video saying that the hu9000 has a 10 bit panel. I used to share that video with people who told me it didn't
Ray, I remember that video. Do you still have it? Maybe you could post it here, but you'll probably never convince people who want so hard for it not to be true after investing so much money in their sets. My 78HU9000 goes for far, far less than a comparable JS model.

In any case, I'll continue to enjoy my 4K UHD HDR discs sent through my K-8500 BR Player.
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HENRY

78HU9000, 10 BIT, TS-01; NEW 3500 OCB, WD PASSPORT HDD
ONKYO TX-NR646 ATMOS RECEIVER
ISCAN MINI, UHD 30 PACK. SAMSUNG BJ7500 BLU RAY PLAYER
USB 3.0 4 PORT HOT SWITCHABLE HUB, ROKU 4,SAMSUNG K-8500 BRP

Last edited by ahro; 02-20-2016 at 01:52 AM.
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post #88 of 440 Old 02-20-2016, 05:12 AM
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Originally Posted by ahro View Post
Ray, I remember that video. Do you still have it? Maybe you could post it here, but you'll probably never convince people who want so hard for it not to be true after investing so much money in their sets. My 78HU9000 goes for far, far less than a comparable JS model.

In any case, I'll continue to enjoy my 4K UHD HDR discs sent through my K-8500 BR Player.
This is the video

https://youtu.be/nXPwGz_484g
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post #89 of 440 Old 02-20-2016, 06:33 AM
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OK, the National Product Training Manager for Samsung clearly states the HU9000 is a 10 bit panel. This should be definitive proof about it being 10 bit. Scott, I hope you can watch this video as it clears things up about the 10 bit panel with complete certainty, and there shouldn't be any doubts after viewing this video. Thanks.
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HENRY

78HU9000, 10 BIT, TS-01; NEW 3500 OCB, WD PASSPORT HDD
ONKYO TX-NR646 ATMOS RECEIVER
ISCAN MINI, UHD 30 PACK. SAMSUNG BJ7500 BLU RAY PLAYER
USB 3.0 4 PORT HOT SWITCHABLE HUB, ROKU 4,SAMSUNG K-8500 BRP
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post #90 of 440 Old 02-20-2016, 07:18 AM
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