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CEM79 09-06-2016 07:18 AM

HDR and Gaming
 
From the relatively limited information I am able to find, it seems that having HDR enabled can have a significant impact on lag times with gaming. Is this a potential pitfall for (some) of these early HDR enabled sets--that when HDR gaming becomes more widespread, there will be, for some, unacceptable input lag? It'd seem that perhaps this is something that might be an area of improvement in the future as displays get more powerful processing. Or might this be just an inherent trade-off with regard to enabling HDR while gaming?

nathanddrews 09-06-2016 08:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CEM79 (Post 46587137)
From the relatively limited information I am able to find, it seems that having HDR enabled can have a significant impact on lag times with gaming. Is this a potential pitfall for (some) of these early HDR enabled sets--that when HDR gaming becomes more widespread, there will be, for some, unacceptable input lag? It'd seem that perhaps this is something that might be an area of improvement in the future as displays get more powerful processing. Or might this be just an inherent trade-off with regard to enabling HDR while gaming?

I don't think it's HDR specifically that is the cause, but rather its implementation at this moment in time.

Regarding input lag, most TVs that offer a "game mode" or "PC mode" achieve lower input lag by disabling most of the image processing. I believe that right now, most of the internal HDR processing is done by the TV's SOC, using raw compute power instead of dedicated chipsets, hence the added lag. I could be wrong, but that's typical of new technology. It's easier and cheaper to develop a software solution (laggy) than a hardware solution.

Building a custom ASIC (application-specific integrated circuit) is expensive at first, but generally offers the lowest impact to lag. However, using an ASIC can bifurcate the input layout, meaning devices plugged into it can not utilize the other features provided by the SOC (smart TV overlay, calibration menu, etc.). Getting all of it to work together adds cost and complexity. Eventually this gets worked out and after a few generations in mass production, becomes widely available.

The landscape may change dramatically once PC monitor manufacturers release new HDR displays to take advantage of DisplayPort 1.3/1.4 and HDMI 2.0, but we'll just have to wait to see. I'd like to see more competition (between TV and monitor manufacturers) on this front with the HDR era. If Microsoft gets their HDR update pushed out to Xbone S units soon, that will certainly help push TV makers in the right direction. If it's anything like previous generations of displays, the TV display and PC display markets won't overlap much at all, sadly. Matt McRae of Vizio said as much when I asked him about why we don't see DP adoption on TVs.

DisplayCalNoob 09-06-2016 09:16 AM

1 Attachment(s)
What concerns me, is dynamic nature of gaming compared to T.V and film. HDR processing has to be able to keep up with gamer interactions. Static metadata may turn out to cause some visual artifacts. So much happens within 30-60 frames, but I guess we'll see.

CEM79 09-06-2016 09:33 AM

nathanddrews,

Thanks for your thoughtful answer--that aligns with what my hunch had been. Looking at the Vizios, for example, it seems turning on GLL mode aids some, but HDR is adding some processing overhead back into the picture. And at least with the M, HDR is not an option on the gaming port (not sure about the P series and its low lag port). I had thought a bit about this when watching the podcast a few weeks ago with Stacey Spears, where my takeaway (unless I misunderstood) is that the SOC/processing is still that used for just SDR 4K, and that it will take some time to upgrade the components internally to use newer designs more optimized for HDR. That's what made me think of the HDR lag issue--just as you said, all of the HDR processing is taking place on the internal SOC, and that hopefully will improve with redesigns/die shrinks or the addition of dedicated processing hardware.

I remember buying a Pentium II computer in 1997 when they first launched. Intel didn't have the chipset ready, but the PII would work on Pentium Pro motherboards, so companies released them that way. That was a costly decision for me as I had a premium processor at the time, but it was saddled with no AGP slot and no SDRAM support, among other things. HDR reminds me a bit of that--there's a huge advance in one area (the display panels themselves), but the entire chain needs to be up to par for the experience to be fully realized.

desistyle3 09-08-2016 09:05 AM

Is it possible that recent HDR sets (2015 and beyond) would get software updates allowing them to achieve game mode with HDR enabled? I primarily use my JS8500 for gaming and now I feel like I should have waited


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drummernrg 09-08-2016 09:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by desistyle3 (Post 46642737)
Is it possible that recent HDR sets (2015 and beyond) would get software updates allowing them to achieve game mode with HDR enabled?

It is possible, however I would predict high lag and it would depend on the manufacturer's reputation for supporting older models. For twitch/reaction games, that could be an issue, it depends on the gamer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by desistyle3 (Post 46642737)
I primarily use my JS8500 for gaming and now I feel like I should have waited

Welcome to AVSforum, you are in good company here! We all suffer from buyer's remorse because we care about the state of the art. FWIW: there is an opportunity cost to waiting, so enjoy what you have. :D

desistyle3 09-08-2016 11:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drummernrg (Post 46643057)
It is possible, however I would predict high lag and it would depend on the manufacturer's reputation for supporting older models. For twitch/reaction games, that could be an issue, it depends on the gamer.

Yeah - I think my JS8500 input lag with HDR is around 117MS which is way too high. What's interesting is that both Microsoft and Sony are touting HDR gaming when there are only a few TV's on then market that actually can do HDR in game mode with respectable input lag (< 50MS) - believe a Panasonic and the one of the LG OLED's. Seems like other folks that have purchased early HDR TV's and are sensitive to input lag are basically screwed!

Quote:

Originally Posted by drummernrg (Post 46643057)
Welcome to AVSforum, you are in good company here! We all suffer from buyer's remorse because we care about the state of the art. FWIW: there is an opportunity cost to waiting, so enjoy what you have. :D

So true - thanks! ;)

obveron 09-09-2016 07:03 AM

Didn't samsung update their HDR displays to improve input lag while in HDR? Thought I read that somewhere but I can't find the source.

sjchmura 09-16-2016 06:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by desistyle3 (Post 46646233)
Yeah - I think my JS8500 input lag with HDR is around 117MS which is way too high. What's interesting is that both Microsoft and Sony are touting HDR gaming when there are only a few TV's on then market that actually can do HDR in game mode with respectable input lag (< 50MS) - believe a Panasonic and the one of the LG OLED's. Seems like other folks that have purchased early HDR TV's and are sensitive to input lag are basically screwed!







So true - thanks! ;)



Sony 940d and z9 look good too - about the same as the OLED at 40-60. Not great but outside of fighting games would be fine


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DirgeExtinction 09-17-2016 03:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by obveron (Post 46664889)
Didn't samsung update their HDR displays to improve input lag while in HDR? Thought I read that somewhere but I can't find the source.

Yes, they did. It was for the KS8000. With Game Mode + HDR on, input lag is around 22ms

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fredox19 09-17-2016 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by desistyle3 (Post 46642737)
Is it possible that recent HDR sets (2015 and beyond) would get software updates allowing them to achieve game mode with HDR enabled? I primarily use my JS8500 for gaming and now I feel like I should have waited


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You know that you can have HDR in game mode right? I think you'll be in the 24ms under game mode and have HDR working.

sjchmura 09-18-2016 05:59 AM

So the eurogamer tests were just older firmware? Nice


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sjchmura 09-18-2016 06:35 PM

So for the vizio p, you can't do HDR in game mode correct (been searching threads) .

What is the latency? Do we know yet.

The fist games are just hitting like forza 3


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sjchmura 09-18-2016 06:36 PM

Has Microsoft committed to HDR on the Windows 10'versioj of games or just Xbox s ones - recore / GOW/forza?


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kenoh89 09-18-2016 10:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fredox19 (Post 46864897)
You know that you can have HDR in game mode right? I think you'll be in the 24ms under game mode and have HDR working.

Does this currently only apply to the Samsung, or can the Sony and LG do it too?

fredox19 09-19-2016 05:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kenoh89 (Post 46887697)
Does this currently only apply to the Samsung, or can the Sony and LG do it too?

Not sure about Sony and LG, I have the samsung js7000 and I know it work when I put a HDR movie on netflix with the xbox and turn on game mode and still shows that's HDR is still on. Not sure if you can do a similar text on those brands.

sjchmura 09-21-2016 09:31 PM

Does anyone understand which standards for HDR are supported on Windows 10 and the consoles?

Looks like: win10 is DV only per CEDIA/developers

Ps4 original is DV
PS4 neo hdr10
Xbox s HDR 10

But Xbox s games like forza 3 and GOW are HDR only on Xbox - not ein10

Arg.

Was about to buy a Sony Z until I saw bioware and mass effect was DV only on PC


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MikeUoG 09-25-2016 09:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by desistyle3 (Post 46646233)
Yeah - I think my JS8500 input lag with HDR is around 117MS which is way too high. What's interesting is that both Microsoft and Sony are touting HDR gaming when there are only a few TV's on then market that actually can do HDR in game mode with respectable input lag (< 50MS) - believe a Panasonic and the one of the LG OLED's. Seems like other folks that have purchased early HDR TV's and are sensitive to input lag are basically screwed!



So true - thanks! ;)

<<< JS8500 here and HDR does work with game mode enabled. I am certainly not experiencing 100+ms input lag. It feels similar to what I experience during 1080p gameplay. So I suppose the reported 30-36ms range.

DanBa 09-26-2016 05:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sjchmura (Post 46961713)
Does anyone understand which standards for HDR are supported on Windows 10 and the consoles?

Looks like: win10 is DV only per CEDIA/developers

Ps4 original is DV
PS4 neo hdr10
Xbox s HDR 10

But Xbox s games like forza 3 and GOW are HDR only on Xbox - not ein10

Arg.

Was about to buy a Sony Z until I saw bioware and mass effect was DV only on PC


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As far as I understand, there are 2 main game application architectures:
1. Game uses services through APIs exposed by the Windows / console operating system
2. Game uses services through APIs exposed by the game engine.
The "game engine" can be developed by a 3rd party software house or by a "game software house".

http://danielbafr.free.fr/photos/lumberyard.jpg


As far as I know, the free cross-platform Amazon Lumberyard game engine is currently
. waiting for the Windows / console OS built-in support of HDR10 (i.e. Type 1 architecture)
. supporting Dolby Vision on Windows: the Dolby Vision SDK has been integrated into the game engine in a few days (i.e. Type 2 architecture).
http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1023597/

As dynamic metadata are missing in HDR10, the HDR10 TV’s tone mapping is not properly done.
The proper tone mapping has to be done outside the HDR10 TV: "App does tone mapping".
This proper tone mapping is carried out by the game app according to the collected HDR capabilities of the HDR10 TV.
As there "is quite a bit of work to query HDR capability", the Amazon Lumeryard team waits for the Windows / console OS built-in support of HDR10.

"Dolby Vision, one of the standard for HDR is currently supported on the Windows platform. Lumberyard's Dolby Vision implementation works on legacy cards as well, e.g. NVidia GTX980 or older, PASCAL is not required, same goes for AMD. HDR 10 is the other standard, which Windows and Xbox has announced plans to support through the OS, and other consoles might too. When that occurs, Lumberyard will support it as well.
Before Windows and Console OS has the support, it is quite a bit of work to query HDR capability and switch the display to HDR mode. Some vendor SDKs like Nvidia Gameworks support this query and switching mechanism for some TVs, but since OS built-in support is coming (soon), we don’t currently plan on incorporating the vendor specific HDR into Lumberyard."

https://gamedev.amazon.com/forums/qu...blurayforum-20

http://danielbafr.free.fr/photos/lumberyardhdr.jpg

http://danielbafr.free.fr/photos/lumberyardhdr10.jpg

http://danielbafr.free.fr/photos/dvlumberyard.jpg

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CdxYpsHWIAEtU-q.jpg

Dolby Vision compatible demo game based on Amazon Lumberyard game engine running on Windows PC > NVidia Titan X graphics card >> HDMI >> Dolby Vision compatible Vizio R TV

https://twitter.com/nvidiageforce/st...40315099340800

So, there are 2 HDR game application architectures:
. game depending on OS built-in support of HDR10 / Dolby Vision
. game not depending on OS built-in support of HDR: HDR10 / Dolby Vision features are integrated into the game / game engine.

sjchmura 09-26-2016 09:22 AM

Seems like supporting DV will
Mean a much much broader user base to buy new monitors and games


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DaverJ 09-26-2016 09:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sjchmura (Post 46884257)
So for the vizio p, you can't do HDR in game mode correct (been searching threads) .

What is the latency? Do we know yet.

The fist games are just hitting like forza 3

Vizio P-series doesn't do HDR gaming yet, but they just announced they will have new firmware for it. They are re-working the video pipeline so the HDR10 signal won't go through the DolbyVision section of the SoC, eliminating any extra lag. The current SDR lag for 4K (inputs 1 through 4) is 38ms, which is decent.

The goal is to have this new firmware tested and start rolling out in 30 to 60 days. Fingers crossed it will be out for the PS4 PRO launch.

kenoh89 09-26-2016 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sjchmura (Post 46961713)
Does anyone understand which standards for HDR are supported on Windows 10 and the consoles?

Looks like: win10 is DV only per CEDIA/developers

Ps4 original is DV
PS4 neo hdr10
Xbox s HDR 10

But Xbox s games like forza 3 and GOW are HDR only on Xbox - not ein10

Arg.

Was about to buy a Sony Z until I saw bioware and mass effect was DV only on PC


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

So, the only choices for HDR on PC is between Vizio and LG? Did they mention HDR on the original PS4 was DV compatible? And don't you need new hardware to take advantage of Dolby Vision, which I assume the PS4 Pro would take advantage of?

sjchmura 09-26-2016 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kenoh89 (Post 47060361)
So, the only choices for HDR on PC is between Vizio and LG? Did they mention HDR on the original PS4 was DV compatible? And don't you need new hardware to take advantage of Dolby Vision, which I assume the PS4 Pro would take advantage of?



For sure the pro is hdr10. I have no idea how HDR is working on old ps4. DV is possible


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kenoh89 09-26-2016 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sjchmura (Post 47060433)
For sure the pro is hdr10. I have no idea how HDR is working on old ps4. DV is possible


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Can you point to me to where developers have said PC will only support DV? That's the first I've heard of that?

sjchmura 09-26-2016 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kenoh89 (Post 47060929)
Can you point to me to where developers have said PC will only support DV? That's the first I've heard of that?



Bioware has only stated, at the ps4 event (and subsequent posts) hdr10 for ps pro and DV for mass effect PC

Obviously we will see soon with battlefield 1 - we know it's hdr10 on Xbox one s.




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Matthew Camara 10-01-2016 11:40 AM

Hey All,

I have the Samsung JS8500 paired with the Xbox One S , I am looking for some clarification for the best setup for HDR. I have heard so many conflicting suggestions on YouTube and other forums.

My Setup - Gaming - UHD On, Game Mode On - Xbox says everything is Good
Regular TV - UHD On, Game Mode Off - Standard

What I have heard

1) HDR for Samsung 2015 models only works on Movie Mode if you want the full effect
2) Works with Game Mode
3) Doesn't work with Game Mode

Do we have official clarification on what HDR will work on, I be using it mainly for gaming.

Thank you in advance

BioSehnsucht 10-17-2016 09:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matthew Camara (Post 47182225)
Hey All,

I have the Samsung JS8500 paired with the Xbox One S , I am looking for some clarification for the best setup for HDR. I have heard so many conflicting suggestions on YouTube and other forums.

My Setup - Gaming - UHD On, Game Mode On - Xbox says everything is Good
Regular TV - UHD On, Game Mode Off - Standard

What I have heard

1) HDR for Samsung 2015 models only works on Movie Mode if you want the full effect
2) Works with Game Mode
3) Doesn't work with Game Mode

Do we have official clarification on what HDR will work on, I be using it mainly for gaming.

Thank you in advance

Forza Horizon 3 looks amazing in HDR and I have game mode enabled in HDR mode on my US market UN65JS8500 . I haven't played Gears 4 yet as I've yet to play 3, been meaning to get to that in my backlog. I bought the Gears 4 edition Xbox One S which meant I spent my first few weeks of playing Forza Horizon 3 in vanilla 1080P. What a difference HDR makes, even still at 1080P! I think I set my TV calibration according to rtings but it might have been someplace else.

Do make sure you have enabled UHD color on the relevant HDMI input but you probably already did that if you're getting all green checkmarks in the display settings on the Xbox.

dojoman 10-19-2016 08:22 AM

Anyone got Battlefield 1? Is it in HDR?

Harry Hanson 10-19-2016 04:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dojoman (Post 47583201)
Anyone got Battlefield 1? Is it in HDR?

IIRC it will require an upcoming patch on both XB1 and PS4

sjchmura 10-19-2016 07:35 PM

There is ps4 pro support also


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