Universal HDR-compliant displays - Page 7 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
View Poll Results: HDR TV shall support all HDR formats.
HDR TV shall support all HDR formats. 116 95.87%
Other (Please detail in a post) 5 4.13%
Voters: 121. You may not vote on this poll

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post #181 of 546 Old 08-06-2017, 10:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanBa View Post
"This is what the HDR video standards field will look like once Apple officially announces support for HDR10, Dolby Vision and HLG."
https://twitter.com/UHD4k/status/894123260438335488
https://twitter.com/DanielBa78/statu...99365475512320
I keep trying to work out if that Venn diagram will ever get to a state - due to a combination of who supports what - where it's impossible to draw
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post #182 of 546 Old 08-06-2017, 08:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanBa View Post
"This is what the HDR video standards field will look like once Apple officially announces support for HDR10, Dolby Vision and HLG."
https://twitter.com/UHD4k/status/894123260438335488
https://twitter.com/DanielBa78/statu...99365475512320


Samsung also supports HLG.


Richard
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post #183 of 546 Old 08-07-2017, 11:37 AM
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Originally Posted by King Richard View Post
Samsung also supports HLG.
Ha! That could be in the impossible-to-draw one

Good point though, I hadn't spotted that error before.
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post #184 of 546 Old 08-07-2017, 12:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanBa View Post
"This is what the HDR video standards field will look like once Apple officially announces support for HDR10, Dolby Vision and HLG."
https://twitter.com/UHD4k/status/894123260438335488
https://twitter.com/DanielBa78/statu...99365475512320

Spoiler!
That Venn diagram also omits YouTube's support of both HDR10 and HLG.
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post #185 of 546 Old 08-08-2017, 07:43 AM - Thread Starter
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I think a lot of people put HEVC HDR10 HDR and VP9-PQ YouTube HDR in the same category "HDR10", and HEVC HLG HDR and VP9-HLG YouTube HDR in the same category "HLG".


Latest Yoeri Geutskens' diagram:
"The previous Venn diagram suggested everyone supports HDR10. That's not quite accurate. I've added BBC and NHK with #HLG here."
https://twitter.com/UHD4k/status/894884864796889089



I think it should be improved:
1. Samsung is also supporting HLG
2. Oppo is also supporting HLG
3. Google is supporting HDR10, Dolby Vision & HLG
https://source.android.com/devices/tech/display/hdr
4. Roku is also supporting Dolby Vision
https://blog.roku.com/blog/2017/05/1...er-this-month/


My latest Multi-HDR TV table:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/465-hi...l#post53565641



BTW, are there some inaccuracies?
Thanks

Universal audio/video receiver (Dolby Atmos, DTS:X, etc.) is achieved.
Universal HDR TV (HDR10, Dolby Vision, HEVC HLG HDR, VP9-HLG / VP9-PQ YouTube HDR, Dynamic HDR) is required.

Push for universal HDR TV!
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post #186 of 546 Old 08-08-2017, 10:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanBa View Post
I think it should be improved:
1. Samsung is also supporting HLG
2. Oppo is also supporting HLG
3. Google is supporting HDR10, Dolby Vision & HLG
https://source.android.com/devices/tech/display/hdr
4. Roku is also supporting Dolby Vision
https://blog.roku.com/blog/2017/05/1...er-this-month/
5. Blue is too similar a colour to Purple!

Have you fed back your suggestions? Don't want the original author to get swamped

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post #187 of 546 Old 08-08-2017, 11:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanBa View Post
BTW, are there some inaccuracies?
This isn't an inaccuracy but a suggestion.

You could group the Dolby column next to HDR10Plus and Technicolor, and also add in the labels for ST2094-10, ST2094-20, ST2094-30, ST2094-40. I know there's no necessarily a 1:1 mapping, but even with HD10Plus there isn't either, the metadata is just one part of it. But it would at least clarify the standards and make it clearer to follow. I've tried in vain to even find out which ST2094 is which, "Application 1/2/3/4" in the SMPTE documents seems like a deliberate tease
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post #188 of 546 Old 08-08-2017, 02:37 PM
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I don't know if this helps this discussion, but if any displays can match the specifications of the mastering display (presently P3 gamut mapped into Rec2020, and, depending on the source footage, 1000 to 4000 nits) then you have a 'Universal HDR Display', as any metadata will be irrelevant, and the footage will (should) playback totally unadulterated, just as it was graded.

Steve
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post #189 of 546 Old 08-09-2017, 07:30 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrtickleuk View Post
Have you fed back your suggestions? Don't want the original author to get swamped
Yes, I did.
https://twitter.com/UHD4k/status/894976363546980353

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrtickleuk View Post
This isn't an inaccuracy but a suggestion.

You could group the Dolby column next to HDR10Plus and Technicolor, and also add in the labels for ST2094-10, ST2094-20, ST2094-30, ST2094-40. I know there's no necessarily a 1:1 mapping, but even with HD10Plus there isn't either, the metadata is just one part of it. But it would at least clarify the standards and make it clearer to follow. I've tried in vain to even find out which ST2094 is which, "Application 1/2/3/4" in the SMPTE documents seems like a deliberate tease
Thanks for the suggestion.

I will wait for clarifications about proprietary Dolby Vision and open standard SMPTE ST 2094-10 compliant (proprietary) Dolby Vision.

In case of decoding outside the TV (media player, Set Top Box), a proprietary Dolby Vision uncompressed video can be transferred to the TV through a HDMI 1.4 interface, and a "SMPTE ST 2094-10 compliant Dolby Vision uncompressed video" through a HDMI 2.1 interface.

Legacy proprietary Dolby Vision could never change (case of UHD Blu-ray specification unchanged for example), and could be "different" than SMPTE ST 2094-10 compliant Dolby Vision (even if a ST 2094-10 compliant Dolby Vision implementation could also handle legacy proprietary dynamic metadata).



https://www.avsforum.com/forum/465-hi...l#post51413513
http://www.techstreet.com/searches/17050656

SMPTE ST 2094-10: Dynamic Metadata for Color Volume Transform - Application #1 (Dolby) => ST 2094-10 compliant Dolby Vision
SMPTE ST 2094-20: Dynamic Metadata for Color Volume Transform - Application #2 (Philips) => Technicolor HDR
SMPTE ST 2094-30: Dynamic Metadata for Color Volume Transform - Application #3 (Technicolor) => Technicolor HDR
SMPTE ST 2094-40: Dynamic Metadata for Color Volume Transform - Application #4 (Samsung) => HDR10 PLUS
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Universal audio/video receiver (Dolby Atmos, DTS:X, etc.) is achieved.
Universal HDR TV (HDR10, Dolby Vision, HEVC HLG HDR, VP9-HLG / VP9-PQ YouTube HDR, Dynamic HDR) is required.

Push for universal HDR TV!
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post #190 of 546 Old 08-09-2017, 08:06 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Light Illusion View Post
I don't know if this helps this discussion, but if any displays can match the specifications of the mastering display (presently P3 gamut mapped into Rec2020, and, depending on the source footage, 1000 to 4000 nits) then you have a 'Universal HDR Display', as any metadata will be irrelevant, and the footage will (should) playback totally unadulterated, just as it was graded.

Steve
It was mentioned.
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/465-hi...l#post50857057



But such a (PQ) 'Universal HDR Display' can’t play no-metadata-required HLG video.
Also such a (HEVC) 'Universal HDR Display' can’t play VP9-PQ / VP9-HLG YouTube HDR video.


I think we, consumers, can’t let "what happens in the industry happens".
After all, we, consumers, pay!

We should push for universal HDR TV in the same way audio video receivers (AVR) have universal support for different audio formats: different HDR formats or different audio formats are just different decoding / mapping software at the TV / AVR level.

No more industry-driven HDR TV incompatible with other HDR content, but consumer-driven universal HDR TV able to play any HDR content!


. A-list: High-end TV supporting all currently operational HDR formats (or with commitment to upgrade)
LG / Sony TV




. B-list: High-end TV supporting the three currently major operational HDR formats (i.e. HDR10, Dolby Vision & HEVC HLG HDR)
Hisense / Loewe / TCL TV



Are you sure you don’t watch YouTube? How about your cat?


. C-list: High-end TV not supporting one of the three currently major operational HDR formats
ChangHong / LeEco / Panasonic / Philips / Samsung / Skyworth / Vizio TV

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Universal audio/video receiver (Dolby Atmos, DTS:X, etc.) is achieved.
Universal HDR TV (HDR10, Dolby Vision, HEVC HLG HDR, VP9-HLG / VP9-PQ YouTube HDR, Dynamic HDR) is required.

Push for universal HDR TV!
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post #191 of 546 Old 08-09-2017, 12:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanBa View Post
Well done. I tried to get him to add Samsung to the HLG region but was met with a sclerotic reluctance. He doesn't want to change it without an official press release from Samsung even though there are thousands of us now with the firmware (since Feb) that supports it on both YouTube and USB. I don't see the other manufacturers being held up to such tough standards
Samsung doesn't mention the word "HDR" once in the entire manual of my TV, or in their "technical specifications" of their current 2017 range. They are never ever going to provide the level of proof which he is demanding. So we all just have to sit around knowing there's mistakes in the diagram

[EDIT: he's just dug in even further]

Quote:
Thanks for the suggestion.

I will wait for clarifications about proprietary Dolby Vision and open standard SMPTE ST 2094-10 compliant (proprietary) Dolby Vision.
Cool, you're welcome.

Quote:
SMPTE ST 2094-10: Dynamic Metadata for Color Volume Transform - Application #1 (Dolby) => ST 2094-10 compliant Dolby Vision
SMPTE ST 2094-20: Dynamic Metadata for Color Volume Transform - Application #2 (Philips) => Technicolor HDR
SMPTE ST 2094-30: Dynamic Metadata for Color Volume Transform - Application #3 (Technicolor) => Technicolor HDR
SMPTE ST 2094-40: Dynamic Metadata for Color Volume Transform - Application #4 (Samsung) => HDR10 PLUS
A-ha! Thanks. The second one isn't a typo - both 2094-20 and 2094-30 are Technicolor?
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post #192 of 546 Old 08-10-2017, 01:25 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrtickleuk View Post
The second one isn't a typo - both 2094-20 and 2094-30 are Technicolor?
Nope, I believe Technicolor HDR is "standardized in ETSI" by TS 103 433.
http://www.etsi.org/deliver/etsi_ts/...33v010101p.pdf



"The following referenced documents are necessary for the application of the present document.
[1] SMPTE ST 2084:2014: "High Dynamic Range Electro-Optical Transfer Function of Mastering
Reference Displays".
[2] SMPTE ST 2086:2014: "Mastering Display Color Volume Metadata Supporting High Luminance
and Wide Color Gamut Images".
[3] Recommendation ITU-T H.264 (02-2016): "Advanced video coding for generic audiovisual
services".
[4] Recommendation ITU-T H.265 (04-2015): "High efficiency video coding".
[5] SMPTE ST 2094-30:2016: "Dynamic Metadata for Color Volume Transform - Application #3".
[6] SMPTE ST 2094-20:2016: "Dynamic Metadata for Color Volume Transform - Application #2".
..."


"Advanced HDR [i.e. SDR-to-HDR upconversion + Technicolor HDR] is a universal distribution system supporting all formats of HDR."
[Technicolor]
https://twitter.com/Technicolor/stat...35919490146304





As far as I know, for the time being there is no such operational distribution system.

Universal audio/video receiver (Dolby Atmos, DTS:X, etc.) is achieved.
Universal HDR TV (HDR10, Dolby Vision, HEVC HLG HDR, VP9-HLG / VP9-PQ YouTube HDR, Dynamic HDR) is required.

Push for universal HDR TV!
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post #193 of 546 Old 08-28-2017, 03:18 AM - Thread Starter
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HDR10+ Alliance

"Panasonic and 20th Century Fox have joined Samsung in its plan to offer HDR10+ as a royalty-free alternative to Dolby Vision. The HDR10+ format will be made available to more manufacturers in early 2018.

The three companies will make HDR10+ available to additional manufacturers of TVs, Blu-ray players, set-top boxes, and SoC vendors starting in January 2018. It will be royalty-free but requires that manufacturers pay a “nominal administrative fee”, the alliance said."
http://www.flatpanelshd.com/news.php...&id=1503914052

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Universal audio/video receiver (Dolby Atmos, DTS:X, etc.) is achieved.
Universal HDR TV (HDR10, Dolby Vision, HEVC HLG HDR, VP9-HLG / VP9-PQ YouTube HDR, Dynamic HDR) is required.

Push for universal HDR TV!

Last edited by DanBa; 08-28-2017 at 03:23 AM.
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post #194 of 546 Old 08-28-2017, 07:57 AM
 
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Quote:
Samsung has already enabled HDR10+ format support via streaming in its latest TVs, but not yet via HDMI.
I found this part interesting. They haven't yet added support via HDMI, but may do so in the future?
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post #195 of 546 Old 08-28-2017, 09:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lineproduct View Post
I found this part interesting. They haven't yet added support via HDMI, but may do so in the future?
As covered before, this is because HDR10Plus-over-HDMI is part of the HDMI2.1 standard and not possible with HDMI2.0a or HDMI2.0b.

Some parts of the HDMI2.1 standard might be possibly upgraded maybe with firmware upgrades perhaps someday in the future tentatively.
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post #196 of 546 Old 08-31-2017, 01:59 AM - Thread Starter
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A color TV war

There was a NTSC-PAL-SECAM color system TV war, not only a technological war but also a geopolitical war.
https://books.google.fr/books?id=xfI...%20war&f=false



But in the end, we have NTSC/PAL/SECAM multi-system TV, because the TV manufacturer’s business logic is to meet the consumer requirements and to sell TV which allow consumers to be able to take advantage of any content they want.

In France for example, at the beginning of the color TV war, French people were happy with their SECAM TV, which is incompatible with a PAL content or with a NTSC content, like a HDR10 TV is incompatible with a Dolby Vision content streamed on Vudu.
Then there were people who wanted also to enjoy PAL DVD (more precisely content on PAL DVD) and required PAL/SECAM TV.
Then there were people who wanted also to take advantage of NTSC DVD (more precisely content on NTSC DVD) and required NTSC/PAL/SECAM TV.

Many latest TV for the U.S. market are NTSC/PAL/SECAM multi-system TV like:
. 77" LG OLED77W7P
https://www.displayspecifications.com/fr/model/309e94d
. 77" Sony XBR-77A1E
https://www.displayspecifications.com/fr/model/485dc9a
. 75" Samsung QN75Q9F
https://www.displayspecifications.com/fr/model/e648b0a

NTSC/PAL/SECAM multi-system TV and universal multi-HDR TV should have the same controversies, the same history because interoperable TV business logic should prevail.

And what is more - coexistence of different HDR formats within a TV is technically possible, because HDR formats are just software (decoding / mapping software) at the TV level and modern TV are compuTV (computer + TV).
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/465-hi...l#post50302361
And software development is easier and faster on HDR TV’s modern operating systems than hardware development on legacy NTSC/PAL/SECAM system TV.


I think we, consumers, can’t let "what happens in the industry happens".
After all, we, consumers, pay!
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/465-hi...l#post54606614

Consumers should push for universal HDR TV in the same way audio/video receivers have universal support for audio formats (Dolby Digital / DTS / Dolby Atmos / DTS:X / …).
Thus, it doesn’t matter what HDR format a given program uses; a TV that implements all formats can accommodate the content and display it to its best advantage.


For the moment, high-end TV manufacturers should commit to support all operational and being standardized (i.e. via committed upgrade) HDR formats.

A Dolby Vision compliant TV can be upgraded to HDR10+: Dolby Vision is currently the most complex HDR format due to its dynamic metadata display adaptation and its 12-bit dual layer architecture. Therefore, if a TV System-on a-Chip is powerful enough to support Dolby Vision, this TV SoC is able to support any other HEVC HDR format.
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Universal audio/video receiver (Dolby Atmos, DTS:X, etc.) is achieved.
Universal HDR TV (HDR10, Dolby Vision, HEVC HLG HDR, VP9-HLG / VP9-PQ YouTube HDR, Dynamic HDR) is required.

Push for universal HDR TV!

Last edited by DanBa; 09-04-2017 at 02:38 AM.
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post #197 of 546 Old 09-04-2017, 02:50 AM - Thread Starter
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Supporting all HDR formats

Apparently, LG is still interested in supporting all HDR formats.
https://twitter.com/BigJohnnyArcher/...94427502567428

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Universal audio/video receiver (Dolby Atmos, DTS:X, etc.) is achieved.
Universal HDR TV (HDR10, Dolby Vision, HEVC HLG HDR, VP9-HLG / VP9-PQ YouTube HDR, Dynamic HDR) is required.

Push for universal HDR TV!
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post #198 of 546 Old 09-04-2017, 02:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanBa View Post
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/465-hi...l#post54128881


HDR10 Plus dynamic metadata could be transferred across HDMI 2.0b:

. "The Consumer Technology Association (CTA) has recently notified the HDMI Forum of the adoption of a new version of the CTA-861 Specification, CTA-861-G. This new version provides additional support for HDR Video transport by including (among others) an extension to the static metadata signaling to include the HLG (Hybrid Log Gamma) EOTF.
The HDMI Forum has assessed the applicability of the CTA-861-G Specification to HDMI 2.0b.
The HDMI Forum has confirmed that the extension of the static metadata signaling to include HLG can be utilized under the existing HDMI 2.0b Specification."
http://www.hdmi.org/manufacturer/hdmi_2_0/
[i.e. The HDMI Forum has not confirmed that the extension of the static metadata signaling to include ST 2094 Dynamic HDR can be utilized under the existing HDMI 2.0b Specification."]
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/465-hi...l#post51413505
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/465-hi...l#post54739608


. According to SMPTE, the transmission of SMPTE ST 2094 dynamic metadata across HDMI is described in CTA-861-G.




. "In CTA-861-G, the HDR Dynamic Metadata Extended InfoFrame is used by a source device [external media player] for identifying and delivering HDR dynamic metadata to a sink device [ST 2094 based Dynamic HDR TV].
The HDR Dynamic Metadata Data Block is used for signaling a sink device’s specific HDR dynamic metadata support capabilities to a source device."
http://www.etsi.org/deliver/etsi_ts/...01v010201p.pdf
https://www.sra.samsung.com/assets/U...94-40-v1.1.pdf

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Universal audio/video receiver (Dolby Atmos, DTS:X, etc.) is achieved.
Universal HDR TV (HDR10, Dolby Vision, HEVC HLG HDR, VP9-HLG / VP9-PQ YouTube HDR, Dynamic HDR) is required.

Push for universal HDR TV!

Last edited by DanBa; 09-04-2017 at 04:24 PM.
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post #199 of 546 Old 09-06-2017, 08:47 AM
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Having ten inputs on the back of my future tv's and four dsp will drive the cost of the tv up but if the industry can simply build panels that can support all those standards and simply switch between inputs when different standards are used, would lead to the best selection of picture no matter what 4k standard you are looking at.

Having an HDR10 display port and toslink sound cable for the HDR10 standard, a HDMI 2.1 socket for dolby vision, a HDMI 2.1 socket for technical hdr color visions standard updated for high dynamic range, and youtube or hev or other non standard format. It does not work for the two hundred dollar tn panel but that would be better off with the low end spec anyway. If they all agree to work on fourteen bit panels you could have tv's with the different standards working together today and building toward more future proof as you could get firmware to upgrade the ten bit and twelve bit standards up to a fourteen bit standard at some point if they panels start with the technology to display the higher quality. The panel is the most expensive part of the display. I would rather have a ten thousand dollar panel that I can use for ten years than a one thousand dollar panel I have to replace every year. Obviously advances in technology will make some panels not as good after a year due to break throughs in technology but aiming for hifi standard to be best quality materials and then let people decide what source and encoding they like the best, would result in standards being adopted faster. But it allows for being able to play your content longer with better quality in the long run. The goal is the best picture we can get on a standard that everyone uses so that images can be filmed and edited with a reasonable guess as what the end user sees on the screen. You can not compensate for a user with a tn panel at a thousand nits who can not tell the difference between red and blue because the display is too bright at a foot away but aim for what the enthusiasts expect to see and the tv industry can come up with default settings that look good with quality content.

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post #200 of 546 Old 09-07-2017, 03:30 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Staying Salty View Post

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/465-hi...l#post54128881


So HDMI 2.0b is all that is required to play HDR10+. Why is the box for HDMI 2.0b/HDR10+ a NO and not a YES? Or a least a YES* with a note explaining a condition.

In my book, it is still a NO.
I can’t be more informed than the HDMI Forum.


https://www.avsforum.com/forum/465-hi...l#post51413505

The transmission of SMPTE ST 2094 dynamic metadata (i.e. ST 2094-10 dynamic metadata of ST 2094 compliant Dolby Vision, ST 2094-20/30 dynamic metadata of Technicolor HDR or ST 2094-40 dynamic metadata of HDR 10 Plus) across HDMI is described in CTA-861-G.

HDMI 2.0b is compliant with CTA-861-G. Is it fully or partially compliant?

According to the HDMI Forum, it is fully compliant with HLG HDR, i.e. the HDMI Forum has not confirmed that HDMI 2.0b is fully compliant with the CTA-861-G/HDMI 2.1 feature Transmission of SMPTE ST 2094 dynamic metadata.
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/465-hi...l#post54744118

Apparently, the same goes for Samsung.
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/465-hi...l#post54748462

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rudy1 View Post
One of the [Samsung] directors told me last week that the HDR10 Plus firmware update (USB & streaming) for 2016 TVs is still on track. They've not determined yet whether HDR10 Plus over HDMI is possible with the current (2016/2017) HDMI chipsets.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rudy1 View Post
They feel more testing is necessary before they can be sure that the 2017 sets will work reliably over HDMI with HDR10 Plus. This late into the model year they may just to wait for HDMI 2.1 (and all its features) for the 2018 TVs, then upgrade 2016/2017 sets with an OCB if all of the connection/interoperability issues can be resolved.
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Universal audio/video receiver (Dolby Atmos, DTS:X, etc.) is achieved.
Universal HDR TV (HDR10, Dolby Vision, HEVC HLG HDR, VP9-HLG / VP9-PQ YouTube HDR, Dynamic HDR) is required.

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post #201 of 546 Old 09-10-2017, 03:51 AM - Thread Starter
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HDR TV format war?

Didn't Think There Was An HDR TV Format War? There Is Now – John Archer
https://www.forbes.com/sites/johnarc.../#6ded7c6e14da

"Yes, despite decades of evidence proving that consumers hate being forced to choose between two incompatible rival technologies, Samsung, Panasonic and 20th Century Fox used the recent IFA technology show in Berlin to kick start a new battle royale based around high dynamic range (HDR) technology [HDR10+].

Four key reasons why a new format war really is now underway:
1. Following the IFA announcements, pretty much every hardware and film studio has now professed support for one dynamic metadata HDR format or the other, tacitly recognizing - and, crucially, demonstrating - the dynamic technology’s ability to deliver a better picture performance than standard HDR10. [Dolby Vision vs HDR10+].

2. At the time of writing it appears that content creators will only back either Dolby Vision or HDR10+, not both.

3. When it comes to 4K Blu-ray, even if a studio wanted to take a neutral stance with regard to dynamic metadata HDR and offer both Dolby Vision and HDR10+, it will likely struggle to actually fit both formats onto a single disc.

4. If the films studios aren’t likely to make the same movies available in both HDR10+ and Dolby Vision, then maybe the hardware makers can provide universal playback on their TVs and 4K Blu-ray players?
Sadly, though, I don’t see this happening. It’s possible one or two TV brands might take a universal HDR playback approach, but it seems extremely unlikely that every brand will be so open minded."


IMHO, take a universal HDR TV playback approach is not open minded, it should be the business logic of every playback device maker: a playback device should be able to play any existing content the consumers want.

(i.e. not only Dolby Vision / HDR10+ content, but also (HDR10) / HEVC HLG HDR / YouTube HDR / Technicolor HDR content (if this latter can become operational) for a universal HDR TV)

Different HDR formats are just different software running on modern HDR compuTV (computer + TV)!
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/465-hi...l#post50302361


There is a precedent: Dolby Atmos vs DTS:X.
A format war?
No! Universal Audio/Video Receivers support both.
No need to choose a side: Dolby Atmos and DTS:X can co-exist.

"Given that many receivers support both DTS:X and Dolby Atmos, it's not likely we'll get a "format war" scenario where we have to choose one format or the other. While some enthusiasts seek out discs based on which audio format it supports, most of us will just buy the movie we want to watch and listen to the default format."
https://www.cnet.com/news/dts-x-the-...ive-explained/



Furthermore, software development is much easier and faster on modern operating systems of HDR TV than on rigid and complex DSP platforms of audio/video receiver.


High-end TV makers could and should commit to support all operational and being standardized (i.e. via committed upgrade) HDR formats: a win-win for consumers and HDR TV makers.
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Universal audio/video receiver (Dolby Atmos, DTS:X, etc.) is achieved.
Universal HDR TV (HDR10, Dolby Vision, HEVC HLG HDR, VP9-HLG / VP9-PQ YouTube HDR, Dynamic HDR) is required.

Push for universal HDR TV!
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post #202 of 546 Old 09-10-2017, 05:39 PM
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HDR10+ will have to prevail because it's part of the base HDMI 2.1 standard, dolby is a blackbox system and not "required" in any standard to implement. The licensing fees over time add up and will push content/panel makers away from dolby.

Dolby clearly weren't expecting to be blind sided and thought they would be the only "premium" option in the market place.
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post #203 of 546 Old 09-10-2017, 08:26 PM
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Lightbulb It's the content

Quote:
Originally Posted by mozmo View Post
HDR10+ will have to prevail because it's part of the base HDMI 2.1 standard, dolby is a blackbox system and not "required" in any standard to implement. The licensing fees over time add up and will push content/panel makers away from dolby.

The devices sold will be driven by the needs/wants of the consumers. The needs/wants are driven by the “content” i.e. movies/programs and the HDR contained in them. It’s the studios that have the ultimate power in this contest. There is quite bit of DV content for streaming already, so that drives display sales. If let’s say Disney starts releasing their 4k Blu-ray blockbusters in Dolby Vision then that will really drive player sales that support that HDR format.
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post #204 of 546 Old 09-10-2017, 08:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StayingSalty View Post
The devices sold will be driven by the needs/wants of the consumers. The needs/wants are driven by the “content” i.e. movies/programs and the HDR contained in them. It’s the studios that have the ultimate power in this contest. There is quite bit of DV content for streaming already, so that drives display sales. If let’s say Disney starts releasing their 4k Blu-ray blockbusters in Dolby Vision then that will really drive player sales that support that HDR format.
I agree and base standards enforce what the content must be encoded with. This is why HDR10+ being part of the hdmi 2.1 standard is big because every display will need to support it. Dolby vision is still seen as optional by all specs.

The differences between HDR10+ and Dolby vision aren't big enough for content makers to opt for the extra licensing and not use the industry standard format.
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post #205 of 546 Old 09-11-2017, 08:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mozmo View Post
I agree and base standards enforce what the content must be encoded with. This is why HDR10+ being part of the hdmi 2.1 standard is big because every display will need to support it. Dolby vision is still seen as optional by all specs.

The differences between HDR10+ and Dolby vision aren't big enough for content makers to opt for the extra licensing and not use the industry standard format.
I understand the intent of your argument, but it is flawed. Being supported by HDMI 2.1 gives no edge to HDR10+ (ST.2094-40) because Dolby Vision (ST.2094-10) is supported at the same time. They are both "base standards" for HDMI 2.1. In fact, all four dynamic metadata standards in ST.2094 are supported by HDMI 2.1. Plus, DV already works with HDMI 2.0a. Being supported by HDMI doesn't automatically equate to any other device supporting it, otherwise all devices with HDMI 2.0a would support DV today, which clearly isn't the case.
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Just to reiterate for those unaware, Paul Williams of Panasonic and Vincent Teoh have confirmed that HDR10+ works over HDMI with HDMI 2.0b. HDMI 2.1 is not required.
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post #207 of 546 Old 09-11-2017, 11:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mozmo View Post
HDR10+ will have to prevail because it's part of the base HDMI 2.1 standard, dolby is a blackbox system and not "required" in any standard to implement. The licensing fees over time add up and will push content/panel makers away from dolby.

Dolby clearly weren't expecting to be blind sided and thought they would be the only "premium" option in the market place.
I don't know why you are calling it "blind sided", that implies HDR10+ was some massive secret that was suddenly revealed with a recent flourish!

The fact is, that HDR10 with dynamic metadata was first demonstrated in public over a year ago! Sixteen months ago, actually. (Video on THIS LINK from May 2016 ) . Samsung have actually been very open all along that they wanted a royalty-free solution for dynamic metadata for HDR10. There's been no "blind siding". Standards aren't done in secret - that's the whole point
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post #208 of 546 Old 09-11-2017, 04:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mozmo View Post
HDR10+ will have to prevail because it's part of the base HDMI 2.1 standard, dolby is a blackbox system and not "required" in any standard to implement. The licensing fees over time add up and will push content/panel makers away from dolby.

Dolby clearly weren't expecting to be blind sided and thought they would be the only "premium" option in the market place.

=> Dolby Vision & open standards:
http://www.itu.int/en/ITU-T/ipr/Pages/open.aspx
http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread....2#post13991492

. Dolby Vision & HDMI Forum / SMPTE / CTA:
ST 2094-10 Dolby Vision dynamic metadata are also transferred across HDMI 2.1.
The transmission of SMPTE ST 2094 dynamic metadata (i.e. ST 2094-10 dynamic metadata of ST 2094 compliant Dolby Vision, ST 2094-20/30 dynamic metadata of Technicolor HDR or ST 2094-40 dynamic metadata of HDR 10 Plus) across HDMI is described in CTA-861-G (base document of HDMI 2.1)






. Dolby Vision & ETSI:
"Additional HDR, named HDR display management (DM) metadata, may be present at the input of the CCM system. [CCM: Compound Content Management]
The HDR DM metadata combines SMPTE ST 2086 static metadata [2] and SMPTE ST 2094-1/10 dynamic metadata [3] and [4], and is used to maintain the artistic intent when the content is mapped to the display capabilities."
http://www.etsi.org/deliver/etsi_gs/...01v010101p.pdf




. Dolby Vision & ATSC 3.0:
"ATSC Candidate Standard: A/341 Amendment – 2094-10
This document describes technology documented in ST 2094-10 “Dynamic Metadata for Color Volume Transform — Application #1 ,” which is a technology for the use of dynamic metadata for HDR content."
https://www.atsc.org/standards/candidate-standards/




. Dolby Vision & DASH-IF:
http://dashif.org/wp-content/uploads...IOP-DV-0.9.pdf






=> Dolby Vision licensing fee

A lot of people are concerned with Dolby licensing fee.

But

"You may hear about one other difference between Dolby Vision and HDR10. Some people will point out that TV manufacturers pay to have Dolby Vision in their displays, while HDR10 is free. While that’s true, the difference isn’t significant.
The royalty cost to add Dolby Vision ranges from less than $3 per TV to lower than $2 per TV"
https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/dolby...ar-giles-baker

and

TCL delivers Dolby Vision for under $600: TCL 55P605 / 55P607, best value TV of 2017 (FALD …).
http://thewirecutter.com/reviews/best-tv/
Also the streaming media player Google Chromecast Ultra, compatible with Dolby Vision / HDR10 / YouTube HDR, is available only at $70, Dolby Vision "licensing fee" included.



=> Artificial HDR format war

Why contribute to create an artificial HDR format war? It won’t bring any benefit to consumers!

Facing inherently incompatible formats like Blu-ray vs HD DVD, consumers have to choose a side.

It is not the case with HDR formats.
Consumers can just require Dolby Vision TV makers or HDR10+ TV makers to just add a piece of HDR software in order to be compatible with the other HDR format. This upgraded TV will remain the same: same panel, same electronic parts, same mechanical parts!
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/465-hi...l#post50302361

For example, the Sony Z9D doesn’t support Dolby Vision at launch.

Quote:
Sony already made the announcement - no Dolby Vision support.
Someone mentioned that Samsung's dynamic metadata HDR10 proposal passed with the competent authorities and perhaps we will see something like a dynamic HDR update on the Z in the future, but this is pure speculation.
Nobody should buy this set expecting a DV upgrade in the future - it simply ain't happening.
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/166-lc...l#post46372345

Then, the Sony Z9D will get Dolby Vision with a free software upgrade.
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/40-ole...l#post54095697
Thank you, Sony! A real consumer-oriented TV maker!

Universal HDR TV is a big plus for consumers: consumers can watch any existing HDR content they want!
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Universal audio/video receiver (Dolby Atmos, DTS:X, etc.) is achieved.
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post #209 of 546 Old 09-11-2017, 06:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrtickleuk View Post
I don't know why you are calling it "blind sided", that implies HDR10+ was some massive secret that was suddenly revealed with a recent flourish!

The fact is, that HDR10 with dynamic metadata was first demonstrated in public over a year ago! Sixteen months ago, actually. (Video on THIS LINK from May 2016 ) . Samsung have actually been very open all along that they wanted a royalty-free solution for dynamic metadata for HDR10. There's been no "blind siding". Standards aren't done in secret - that's the whole point
Maybe blind sided isn't the right word, but certainly Dolby wasn't expecting Samsung to be stubborn enough to push through with implementing HDR10+. They were probably expecting they would eventually roll over like others and give them their licensing cut.

Also people say $3 isn't a lot, in the chipset business that's a decent fee and it multiplies across the whole device chain and media. It adds up.
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post #210 of 546 Old 09-12-2017, 01:48 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mozmo View Post
...
Also people say $3 isn't a lot, in the chipset business that's a decent fee and it multiplies across the whole device chain and media. It adds up.
So what?

TCL delivers Dolby Vision for under $600: TCL 55P605 / 55P607, best value TV of 2017 (FALD …).
Also the streaming media player Google Chromecast Ultra, compatible with Dolby Vision / HDR10 / YouTube HDR, is available only at $70, Dolby Vision "licensing fee" included.
Then, the Sony Z9D will get Dolby Vision with a free software upgrade.

Usually, the licensing costs are passed along to consumers.

The Dolby Vision licensing costs are not significant for the consumers:
. Dolby Vision licensing fee: $3 per TV
. UHD film: +$20 per film
https://www.engadget.com/2017/08/29/...k-movie-price/
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Universal audio/video receiver (Dolby Atmos, DTS:X, etc.) is achieved.
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Push for universal HDR TV!
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