Would HDMI 2.1 kill Dolby Vision? And Dynamic HDR10 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 18 Old 04-01-2017, 10:10 AM - Thread Starter
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Would HDMI 2.1 kill Dolby Vision? And Dynamic HDR10

DV provides for dynamic metadata, which will be embedded into HDMI 2.1 and therefore the TV manufacturers and content providers would be able to make use of dynamic metadata without employing any further hardware such as a chip or paying license fees, in this case to Dolby.

1) In my opinion, while DV would continue providing dynamic metadata for pre-HDMI 2.1 sets, I think DV will get obsolete with HDMI 2.1 sets. Do you agree?

2) People tend to use the phrase "Dynamic HDR10" on the internet but as far as I understand, its tech specs is not yet finalised as DV. Who knows, once finalised, it will be named HDR+ or HDR10+, which is Samsung's naming in its attempts to bring dynamic metadata. How ever it would be named, is it going to be finalised with the final version of HDMI 2.1?

3) Let's say it would be named "D-HDR10". Once it is finalised, will the current HDR10 TVs be able to be upgraded to D-HDR10 through a simple firmware update or if it will require a hardware upgrade? In this regard the last paragraph in the below link has confused me:

https://www.avforums.com/news/samsun...ces-2017.13282

At present Samsung was merely demonstrating that dynamic metadata can be added to HDR 10 and that their TVs are capable of supporting the technology., which, to me, implies that this can be made through firmware update;

[I]They still need to build industry support and to deliver dynamic metadata over HDMI will require HDMI 2.1, the final version of which was announced at CES.[I], which, to me, implies that while Samsung seems to be the major player in developing D-HDR10, it will be adopted in a standard form and be available to all manufacturers that use HDMI 2.1.

Or is it going to be up to the discretion of the manufacturers? E.g., perhaps they may lead us to the way of buying a new set despite upgrading via firmware update be possible.

4) HLG could be upgradable, so logically I cannot think of any reason that this would not be possible for D-HDR10. Do you agree?

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post #2 of 18 Old 04-01-2017, 04:12 PM
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Originally Posted by MG428 View Post
DV provides for dynamic metadata, which will be embedded into HDMI 2.1 and therefore the TV manufacturers and content providers would be able to make use of dynamic metadata without employing any further hardware such as a chip or paying license fees, in this case to Dolby.

1) In my opinion, while DV would continue providing dynamic metadata for pre-HDMI 2.1 sets, I think DV will get obsolete with HDMI 2.1 sets. Do you agree?

2) People tend to use the phrase "Dynamic HDR10" on the internet but as far as I understand, its tech specs is not yet finalized as DV. Who knows, once finalized, it will be named HDR+ or HDR10+, which is Samsung's naming in its attempts to bring dynamic metadata. How ever it would be named, is it going to be finalized with the final version of HDMI 2.1?

3) Let's say it would be named "D-HDR10". Once it is finalized, will the current HDR10 TVs be able to be upgraded to D-HDR10 through a simple firmware update or if it will require a hardware upgrade? In this regard the last paragraph in the below link has confused me:

https://www.avforums.com/news/samsun...ces-2017.13282

At present Samsung was merely demonstrating that dynamic metadata can be added to HDR 10 and that their TVs are capable of supporting the technology., which, to me, implies that this can be made through firmware update;

[I]They still need to build industry support and to deliver dynamic metadata over HDMI will require HDMI 2.1, the final version of which was announced at CES.[I], which, to me, implies that while Samsung seems to be the major player in developing D-HDR10, it will be adopted in a standard form and be available to all manufacturers that use HDMI 2.1.

Or is it going to be up to the discretion of the manufacturers? E.g., perhaps they may lead us to the way of buying a new set despite upgrading via firmware update be possible.

4) HLG could be upgradable, so logically I cannot think of any reason that this would not be possible for D-HDR10. Do you agree?
1. Dolby Vision will continue to be the most premium type of HDR, even in the HDMI 2.1 era, it's popularity is likely to continue to snowball. It's quality is set to remain unrivaled for years to come.

2. There are 4 distinct types of HDR-10 with dynamic metadata. Dolby, Technicolor, Philips, and Samsung all have unique HDR-10 formats, all which use dynamic metadata. Samsung and 20th Century Fox worked together to create their format, 'HDR10+'. 'HDR+' on the other hand, is Samsung's name for SDR to HDR conversion in their tv sets. Samsung and Fox's ST 2094-40 aka 'HDR-10+' is the only new open source, royalty free HDR format, so it's the only true successor to basic HDR-10 with static metadata, it should soon become an industry-wide standard. The format is launching this summer on Amazon, then Netflix and others. Samsung expects their format to become ubiquitous. They expect other tv manufacturers to embrace their new format, and it's also expected that the BDA will soon update the UHD Blu-ray spec to allow for Samsung/Fox's format to become a required part of the BDA spec. After the spec is officially updated by the BDA, and once it is then implemented, it will bring dynamic metadata HDR to all new disks, while still remaining backwards compatible with static HDR-10 and older HDR tvs. I fully expect this to happen, as it's royalty free. It's coming out this summer, so it's 'being finalized' before HDMI 2.1, yet only on 2016-2017 Samsung tvs so far. Those Samsung tvs can internally decode HDR-10+ on the tv's internal streaming apps, but not through HDMI, so you'll need a 2018 model tv or newer, if you want HDR-10+ via UHD Blu-Ray or set top box. Other manufacturers will likely announce support at CES, along with "FreeSync 2" support on some models.

3. The name of Samsung's forthcoming opensource HDR standard has already been settled, it's HDR-10+. Samsung 2016-2017 models will get a firmware update. Do not expect a firmware update for non-Samsung model tvs either. It's going to be a big feature of HDMI 2.1. HDMI 2.1 is going to require a hardware upgrade.

Samsung is not 'the major player' in HDR. The technology was largely invented by Dolby, they made some technology opensource, that allowed for tv companies to embrace the technology, 'HDR-10', they kept some premium features for their premium format and they charge royalty fees to manufacturers for that premium format, Dolby Vision. Samsung and Fox Studios wanted an opensource HDR format with dynamic metadata that could replace HDR-10 moving forward, yet remain backwards compatible. They used Dolby's technology to build upon. Technicolor has a dynamic metadata HDR format too, as does Philips. Philips and Technicolor merged HDR technology, they already have at least one format that is on the UHD Blu-Ray spec from BDA, according to a BDA spokesperson in 2015, both Philips and Technicolor HDR are optional on the BDA spec already. Technicolor's formats have not been officially publicly acknowledged very much, but they do exist.

In the future, expect many UHD Blu-Ray disks to have Dolby Vision, expect many to carry Technicolor's formats, and expect all to carry Samsung's format as a baseline. Samsung and Fox have developed a 'vanilla', 'scene based' HDR format. Philips and Technicolor formats feature unique superior technologies, as does Dolby Vision. So we'll continue to have more premium HDR formats, which charge manufacturers fees, right alongside Samsung's new opensource format. Expect Samsung to continue to blow off all premium HDR formats in their tv sets, but expect Sony, LG, and others to have full support for all forthcoming HDR formats. If Sony will pay for DV, they'll pay for Technicolor's stuff too, they may wait until the format is flourishing with content, but they'll eventually pay the fees and add the technology.

Some may doubt that there is room for Technicolor to introduce another premium 'HDR content-encoding' format, but that's a myopic understanding. Technicolor does a lot of the HDR grading for films as it is, it's not a huge leap for them to grease the wheels with the studios they already work with. Some studios will inevitably embrace the Technicolor formats, and the future revision of HEVC that supports all dynamic metadata formats is imminent, as is HDMI 2.1. Note that Technicolor's upcoming unique HDR formats for streaming content and UHD BD disks are not to be confused with "Advanced HDR by Technicolor" which is a tv/broadcast technology that works with all the tv specific HDR formats, as a vehicle to allow backwards compatibility with SDR and HDR tv, will be used in ATSC 3.0 broadcasts, and also in future cable, and satellite channels.

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post #3 of 18 Old 04-01-2017, 04:39 PM
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@MG428

1- HDR "dynamic metadata" is NOT "embedded into HDMI 2.1" - that's not how it works.

The new HDMI 2.1 specification will add the ability for devices to be able to transmit/receive (HDR10) "dynamic metadata" - just like the HDMI 2.0a specification added the ability for devices to be able to transmit/receive "static" metadata. However HDR formats (whether they include static or dynamic metadata, or no metadata at all) and the HDMI connection specs are two completely different things. You are confusing the two.

2- "HDR10 Plus" (aka "Dynamic HDR10) has already been finalized and is already available on 2017 Samsung TVs (and possibly 2016 models also). Content will first be available through streaming services. It might be (and most likely will be) included on UHD Blu-rays in the future which will require an HDMI 2.1 connection (which is not yet available).

3- The "HLG" HDR format has also been finalized and is currently available on several TV brands and models. Unlike Dolby Vision and HDR10, it does not use any "metadata"(static or dynamic).

4- There are also several other "flavors" of HDR currently available.


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post #4 of 18 Old 04-01-2017, 06:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by King Richard View Post
@MG428


1- HDR "dynamic metadata" is NOT "embedded into HDMI 2.1" - that's not how it works. The new HDMI 2.1 specification will allow for the increased bandwidth required for "dynamic metadata" - just like the HDMI 2.0a specification allowed for "static" metadata. However HDR formats (whether they include static or dynamic metadata, or no metadata at all) and the HDMI connection specs are two completely different things. You are confusing the two.

2- "HDR10 Plus" (aka "Dynamic HDR10) has already been finalized and is already available on 2017 Samsung TVs (and possibly 2016 models also). Content will first be available through streaming services. It might be (and most likely will be) included on UHD Blu-rays in the future which will require an HDMI 2.1 connection (which is not yet available).

3- The "HLG" HDR format has also been finalized and is currently available on several TV brands and models. Unlike Dolby Vision and HDR10, it does not use any "metadata"(static or dynamic).

4- There are also several other "flavors" of HDR currently available.


Richard

The 'SEI messages' used in these forthcoming HDR formats cannot be read via HDMI 2.0a, but can be read via HDMI 2.1, as it's an included feature that was planned years before HDMI 2.1 was announced. These SEI messages used for the dynamic color volume and luminescence tone mapping only add about 15kbps extra bandwidth, so it's negligible. Just like VRR Game Mode, dynamic tone mapping is an added feature that doesn't require lots of extra bandwidth, but does need hardware upgrades. So you can still use old HDMI cables, and get dynamic metadata HDR on a 2018 HDMI 2.1 tv. You'll only need higher bandwidth cables to do 4K @ 120hz or 8K @ 60hz. For PC/PS5 gaming and future HFR tv programming that is feeding your tv anything above native 60fps 4K content via HDMI 2.1. That's the only correction I'd make to what Richard is saying.

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post #5 of 18 Old 04-03-2017, 12:14 AM
 
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I bet any money that getting dynamic metadata on HDMI 2.0a enabled devices is just a firmware update away for my displays and sources.

Let's not forget, Sony added HDR10 to all PS4s including the original model which only have HDMI 1.4 chips in them.

I doubt doing the same for dynamic metadata will be a big challenge for them.
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post #6 of 18 Old 04-03-2017, 01:13 AM
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I bet any money that getting dynamic metadata on HDMI 2.0a enabled devices is just a firmware update away for my displays and sources.

Let's not forget, Sony added HDR10 to all PS4s including the original model which only have HDMI 1.4 chips in them.

I doubt doing the same for dynamic metadata will be a big challenge for them.

Well that is certainly true when it comes to Dolby Vision...

However, I don't believe that will be the case for Samsung's open source, license-free, "dynamic-metadata" HDR standard ("HDR10 Plus" aka SMPTE 2094-40).

Let's just say that I'll be very surprise if it doesn't require HDMI 2.1 ports.

That said, as far as "HDR10 Plus" being included on UHD Blu-rays, that probably won't happen 'til sometimes next year anyways. By then, the 2018 model TVs that will be coming out will have HDMI 2.1 ports.


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post #7 of 18 Old 04-03-2017, 10:58 AM
 
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I'd like to understand your reasoning.

Do you have any factual basis for your belief that HDR10 + dynamic metadata is somehow harder to implement than adding HDR10 + static metadata to HDMI 1.4?

Many features of HDMI 2.1 such as variable refresh rates were in fact developed by AMD on HDMI 1.4a, aka Freesync over HDMI will have predated HDMI 2.1 chips by ~3 years.

My gut (as a programmer with 20 years experience) tells me, if you can add dynamic refresh rates to HDMI 1.4 you can certainly add dynamic metadata.

HDR is just a set of flags + some data, and since 1.4 the HDMI standard has had ways to send custom data over the wire. Hence VRR being added to HDMI 1.4a.

This is actually terrific news for gamers, since the GCN chips inside the original Xbox One and PS4s have Freesync support built-in. So a couple firmware updates later, you could have a console game which previously had a low-ish framrate which got clamped to 30fps, be suddenly freed to go between 30 and 60, say, to a TV over HDMI. This would like result in a much better user experience than a 30 fps locked title. 45 fps is 50% better than 30, but without VRR it is worse than 30 fps since it will be rounded down to 30 fps due to VSync.

I've actually spoken about this and worked with engineers at AMD, Microsoft, Sony, NVidia, and Dolby many times over the years.
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post #8 of 18 Old 04-03-2017, 12:04 PM
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Posted by @Rudy1 in another thread:

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Originally Posted by Rudy1 View Post
Here are the facts, confirmed via email from the product development director and the two leading engineers at Samsung:

There is no upgrade path for HDR10+ (AKA, "dynamic HDR 10") available ahead of the hardware update to HDMI 2.1 which is required to support HDR10+ from UHD Blu-Ray discs.

Model year 2016 Samsung HDR TVs can now support HDR10+ via streaming only; their HDMI 2.0a inputs will only support HDR10 from UHD Blu-Ray discs.

Model year 2017 Samsung HDR TVs can now support HDR10+ via streaming only; their HDMI 2.0b inputs will only support HDR10 from UHD Blu-Ray discs.

Model year 2018 Samsung HDR TVs will support HDR10+ via streaming as well as on their HDMI 2.1 inputs.

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post #9 of 18 Old 04-04-2017, 05:46 PM
 
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Yes but they also said the same thing with regarding HDR10 support requiring HDMI 2.0a hardware, which turns out was completely false.

We shall see.
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post #10 of 18 Old 04-26-2017, 05:44 PM
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I do not think HDR10+ will overtake DV. I think both will continue to exist and probably a third will be added (Technicolor). Think PCM, Dolby and DTS when it comes to sound.
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post #11 of 18 Old 04-29-2017, 08:19 PM
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That email that is clung to like a life raft I still say is nothing. Doesn't mean crap. What you think Samsung is just gonna say yea we could do it but we're not going to.. like someone pointed out the ps4 with 1.4 managed to get 2.0b out of it for HDR but they can't figure out how to pass on 15kbps extra bandwidth to do it... Yea it's more likely it's to big a hassle for them to care , make us all buy new sets and for them to make that much more money.

The number of people who bought the KS series I'll just tell you was INSANE. The deal forums when the 65 inch sold for $1079 via perks program , people begged for months and months for an account to buy one. Threads had 3 million views and millions of replies. I've not seen anything like it , it was just insane.

I'm not saying we will get it. I'm just saying I bet it can be done but Samsung doesn't care enough to figure it out.

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post #12 of 18 Old 05-01-2017, 07:38 PM
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That email that is clung to like a life raft I still say is nothing. Doesn't mean crap. What you think Samsung is just gonna say yea we could do it but we're not going to.. like someone pointed out the ps4 with 1.4 managed to get 2.0b out of it for HDR but they can't figure out how to pass on 15kbps extra bandwidth to do it... Yea it's more likely it's to big a hassle for them to care , make us all buy new sets and for them to make that much more money.

The number of people who bought the KS series I'll just tell you was INSANE. The deal forums when the 65 inch sold for $1079 via perks program , people begged for months and months for an account to buy one. Threads had 3 million views and millions of replies. I've not seen anything like it , it was just insane.

I'm not saying we will get it. I'm just saying I bet it can be done but Samsung doesn't care enough to figure it out.

The email from Samsung means exactly what it says. It's not the extra 15kpbs of bandwidth that is the issue, it's the fact that the extra bandwidth consists of special SEI messages that have to be read between HDMI connected devices. HDMI 2.0a devices are only setup to work with static metadata. HDMI 2.1 was always going to add support for dynamic metadata SEI messages, it's been known for years. It's not that Samsung,or Philips/Technicolor 'don't care enough' to get devices to work with dynamic metadata HDR content via HDMI 2.0a.

It's not about them wanting to make more money, it's about technology, and how rapidly it advances. How quickly older models, even newer models, become obsolete. There's information out there, if people don't do the research, and then they get upset their UHD Blu-Ray player can't do Dolby Vision or can't do HDR10+, well that is just the price early adopters pay. The era of 4K is still in its infancy. Only a sixth of US homes even has a single 4k tv at this point, let alone people who have tvs with high quality HDR. Most 4K tvs don't do good HDR, and many consumers have no idea about HDR and will just get the cheapest 4K tv that's 65-inch. HDR10+ is supposed to be almost completely replacing HDR-10 as a format, Samsung has enough on their plate.
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And yet one of the lead HDMI techs says the 2015 models chip can be upgraded but isn't sure about 2016 models. It's not impossible most likely they just don't want to, so people can quote that email all they want to, I'm not buying it. Period. When an expert says it can be done for one and maybe even ks series who you think I'm gonna believe. That email is no different to me than calling tech support and asking about HDR , they don't even know what it is...

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post #14 of 18 Old 07-31-2017, 12:29 PM
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One Connect to the rescue??

Quote:
Originally Posted by philochs1 View Post
Those Samsung tvs can internally decode HDR-10+ on the tv's internal streaming apps, but not through HDMI, so you'll need a 2018 model tv or newer, if you want HDR-10+ via UHD Blu-Ray or set top box.
Quote:
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@MG428

2- "HDR10 Plus" (aka "Dynamic HDR10) has already been finalized and is already available on 2017 Samsung TVs (and possibly 2016 models also). Content will first be available through streaming services. It might be (and most likely will be) included on UHD Blu-rays in the future which will require an HDMI 2.1 connection (which is not yet available).
Quote:
Originally Posted by King Richard View Post
Posted by @Rudy1 in another thread:
Here are the facts, confirmed via email from the product development director and the two leading engineers at Samsung:

There is no upgrade path for HDR10+ (AKA, "dynamic HDR 10") available ahead of the hardware update to HDMI 2.1 which is required to support HDR10+ from UHD Blu-Ray discs.

Model year 2016 Samsung HDR TVs can now support HDR10+ via streaming only; their HDMI 2.0a inputs will only support HDR10 from UHD Blu-Ray discs.

Model year 2017 Samsung HDR TVs can now support HDR10+ via streaming only; their HDMI 2.0b inputs will only support HDR10 from UHD Blu-Ray discs.

Model year 2018 Samsung HDR TVs will support HDR10+ via streaming as well as on their HDMI 2.1 inputs.
Richard
Does anyone know if 2016 or 2017 Samsung TV's might be able to be upgraded to HDMI 2.1 since their One Connect Box attachments are the only component that actually has HDMI ports on it? E.g. if they simply sell a new One Connect box that has HDMI 2.1 ports on it instead of HDMI 2.0???
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post #15 of 18 Old 07-31-2017, 12:54 PM
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Does anyone know if 2016 or 2017 Samsung TV's might be able to be upgraded to HDMI 2.1 since their One Connect Box attachments are the only component that actually has HDMI ports on it? E.g. if they simply sell a new One Connect box that has HDMI 2.1 ports on it instead of HDMI 2.0???
I doubt it.
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post #16 of 18 Old 08-01-2017, 12:11 PM
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I doubt it.
Why do you say that? Because it would discourage buying a new TV? Or because there's some likely technical hurdle?
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post #17 of 18 Old 08-01-2017, 01:20 PM
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Originally Posted by tvwatcher12345 View Post
Why do you say that? Because it would discourage buying a new TV? Or because there's some likely technical hurdle?
Would you pay 400+ bucks for an upgraded one-connect box arriving 2018/19 when your current tv becomes 2-3 years old ?
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post #18 of 18 Old 08-03-2017, 07:03 AM
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Would you pay 400+ bucks for an upgraded one-connect box arriving 2018/19 when your current tv becomes 2-3 years old ?
in a heartbeat! many 2016 and 2017 models (including mine) that are capable of displaying HDR10+ cost many many times that but won't be able to play content from anything other than their own installed apps without such an add-on. i'd happily swap out my receiver and blu ray player too. and roku and cables, etc etc.
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