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post #451 of 1192 Old 11-14-2017, 09:55 PM
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With news the Xbox one X is getting HDR10+ support, seems pretty locked in now that we'll get an announcement from the BDA on support, I'm guessing samsung early next year will then roll out firmware updates to support it over hdmi.
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post #452 of 1192 Old 11-14-2017, 10:30 PM
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Originally Posted by mozmo View Post
With news the Xbox one X is getting HDR10+ support....
Is there an “Official Announcement”or at least one that does not trace back to DeadpolTwo2?

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post #453 of 1192 Old 11-15-2017, 05:36 AM
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Originally Posted by mozmo View Post
With news the Xbox one X is getting HDR10+ support, seems pretty locked in now that we'll get an announcement from the BDA on support, I'm guessing samsung early next year will then roll out firmware updates to support it over hdmi.
This petition was started 3 months ago...perhaps all AVSF Xbox One X owners should sign it:

https://www.change.org/p/microsoft-h...-to-xbox-one-x

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post #454 of 1192 Old 11-15-2017, 08:59 PM
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Knowing the tight margins on console hardware, I wouldn't expect to see dolby vision support added, that's a significant licensing cost MS would have to pay for every system out there.

HDR10+ they can add at very little cost, they just pay the one off admin fee and can roll it out to as many xbox one X systems they like.

Dynamic metadata is useless for gaming, it's purely for watching movies.
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post #455 of 1192 Old 11-16-2017, 10:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mozmo View Post
Knowing the tight margins on console hardware, I wouldn't expect to see dolby vision support added, that's a significant licensing cost MS would have to pay for every system out there.

HDR10+ they can add at very little cost, they just pay the one off admin fee and can roll it out to as many xbox one X systems they like.

Dynamic metadata is useless for gaming, it's purely for watching movies.
On that thought, why then are there some dolby vision-enabled games? They can't be using 12-bit video, they're all rec.709 narrow colour gamut anyway. What possible benefit would a dolby vision-enabled game show if it's not the dynamic metadata?

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post #456 of 1192 Old 11-16-2017, 11:46 AM
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Originally Posted by StayingSalty View Post
Is there an “Official Announcement”or at least one that does not trace back to DeadpolTwo2?
Come to think of it, has anyone reached out to Mike Ybarra on Twitter to find out what's going with this?
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post #457 of 1192 Old 11-16-2017, 02:25 PM
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Originally Posted by mrtickleuk View Post
On that thought, why then are there some dolby vision-enabled games? They can't be using 12-bit video, they're all rec.709 narrow colour gamut anyway. What possible benefit would a dolby vision-enabled game show if it's not the dynamic metadata?
I think most are confused about what dynamic metadata actually does.

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post #458 of 1192 Old 11-16-2017, 03:23 PM
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Originally Posted by DisplayCalNoob View Post
I think most are confused about what dynamic metadata actually does.
So, what possible benefit would a dolby vision-enabled game show over and above a HDR10-enabled game? Assuming both are the normal narrow-colour gamut rec.709.

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post #459 of 1192 Old 11-16-2017, 06:10 PM
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Originally Posted by mrtickleuk View Post
So, what possible benefit would a dolby vision-enabled game show over and above a HDR10-enabled game? Assuming both are the normal narrow-colour gamut rec.709.
I think Dolby Vision and HDR10+ should both be useful in gaming if there are certain scenes that have a higher nit range than others.

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post #460 of 1192 Old 11-17-2017, 11:01 AM
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Originally Posted by aron7awol View Post
I think Dolby Vision and HDR10+ should both be useful in gaming if there are certain scenes that have a higher nit range than others.
Perhaps intercut pre-rendered video scenes? Yes, I agree.

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post #461 of 1192 Old 11-17-2017, 03:15 PM
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Dolby Vision for games can work on the client side. Meaning the application has access to Dolby Vision processing (GPUs are pretty powerful) and performs the tone mapping before it sends it to the display. This allows the games to operate consistently in the way they render images (those calculations are HDR for any game engine that makes use of physically based rendering, and can also potentially be wide gamut) and you can set up the tone mapping and output encoding to be compatible even for a display that is not "HDR compatible". See example here describing an ACES based approach, but it would be similar with Dolby Vision. I'm not sure how it would work with HDR10+ but it could probably be made to do something along the same lines. https://docs.unrealengine.com/latest...DisplayOutput/. In the case you have an HDR10 display that does not recognize DV metadata, it would still be possible to set up the game either manually or by handshaking with the display to map into the HDR10 range that best matches the capabilities of your display.

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post #462 of 1192 Old 11-17-2017, 06:48 PM
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Originally Posted by mrtickleuk View Post
So, what possible benefit would a dolby vision-enabled game show over and above a HDR10-enabled game? Assuming both are the normal narrow-colour gamut rec.709.
It's my understanding it's similar to movie grades, refined highlight detail and a higher apl.

Some mention better color saturation, specifically primaries.

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post #463 of 1192 Old 11-19-2017, 06:22 PM
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Could this be added to models that already support HDR10, but can't handle Dolby Vision, like the Sony x900e?
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post #464 of 1192 Old 11-20-2017, 11:19 AM
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Could this be added to models that already support HDR10, but can't handle Dolby Vision, like the Sony x900e?
It could be added to any HDR10 TV with a firmware upgrade yes, if the manufacturer signs up.
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post #465 of 1192 Old 12-08-2017, 11:31 AM
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Just a thought

The HDR10Plus discussions and Amazon streaming it are heating up again in various threads. It would be easier to keep track of the progress if those conversations were held in this thread.
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post #466 of 1192 Old 12-08-2017, 11:48 AM
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The HDR10Plus discussions and Amazon streaming it are heating up again in various threads. It would be easier to keep track of the progress if those conversations were held in this thread.
I agree. I've tried 3 times in the last 24 hours alone.
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post #467 of 1192 Old 12-08-2017, 01:52 PM
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Originally Posted by mrtickleuk View Post
I agree. I've tried 3 times in the last 24 hours alone.
Totally agree.

Know from your post in the other thread you are no fan of Clarkson and I agree with you on that too.

IF season 2 episiode 1 is HDR10Plus (or IF it is not) there are some things that seem off. Color saturation, especially on faces, seems too high on the built in app. I had to turn it down 2 points to watch it. Landscape scenes are very sharp and contrast seems better. But messing with settings just to watch one program is not something I am crazy about. When I watch on my Roku Ultra the color seems even more excessive. Obviously we have no way of knowing if this is HDR10Plus. If it is, I guess we should expect them to find issues that they need to work on over time. If it isn't, there are production issues that should have been worked out by now.
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post #468 of 1192 Old 12-08-2017, 04:13 PM
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Their skin tone is terrible in Season 1 under artificial lighting. So basically whenever they were in the tent with the audience.

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post #469 of 1192 Old 12-08-2017, 04:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Rudy1 View Post
My M9500 is connected directly to the Q9, and HDR is triggered by both of these videos; the STATS FOR NERDS YouTube overlay identifies the clips as HLG. A DENON X2300W owner reported on 9/11 that he received the update for HLG/DOLBY VISION.
my tv -65ks8500 shows hgl for the tv app. and the uhd player shows it too. but the player looks much better
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post #470 of 1192 Old 12-09-2017, 01:23 PM
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The three of us all have KS8000s or equivalent, which are capable of >1,000 nits, so we should only notice a difference between HDR10 and HDR10Plus if the content is mastered higher than that, such as 4,000 nits. Does anyone know if Season 2 of Grand Tour is in fact mastered higher than 1,000 nits?
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post #471 of 1192 Old 12-09-2017, 01:53 PM
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Hard to say. I can't really tell yet but the app itself was updated on the 7th. So not sure what the update is.

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post #472 of 1192 Old 12-09-2017, 02:02 PM
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I feel like there some misunderstanding of HDR10Plus, and dynamic metadata in general, so I'm going to try to summarize in the simplest way possible, my understanding of how it works. I will ignore color volume transforms in this discussion and solely focus on tone-mapping as it relates to brightness. I will also ignore the "Active HDR" pseudo-dynamic metadata approaches.

For a display that can track the EOTF perfectly up to its max brightness of 1,000 nits...

Case 1: The static metadata informs the display that the content does not contain any highlights in excess of 1,000 nits. The display does not need to do any tone-mapping, as it can perfectly track the EOTF for every scene in the content.

Case 2: The static metadata informs the display that the content does not contain any highlights in excess of 4,000 nits. The display needs to perform tone-mapping (or clip all content above 1,000 nits), so say it starts deviating from the EOTF at 600 nits and rolls off everything above so that 4,000 nits in the content corresponds to 1,000 nits on the display. The display is now displaying everything in the content that falls in the 600-1,000 nit range dimmer than it should be, despite the display being fully capable of tracking the EOTF perfectly for that range. It has to do this for all scenes, since the metadata was static and only informed the display of the brightest highlight in the entire content, even though it may have been a single bright highlight for an instant in one scene. Still, all scenes that only contain content from 0-600 nits should still look identical since tone-mapping is not occurring in this range.

Case 3: At the beginning of each scene, the display receives dynamic metadata telling it the maximum nits in the scene. Now all scenes that do not surpass the display's 1,000 nit capabilities do not need to be tone-mapped at all. Scenes that do surpass the capabilities do need to be tone-mapped, but the other benefit is that the aggressiveness of tone-mapping can be adjusted as necessary for each scene. For example, a scene that maxes out at 1,100 nits needs hardly any tone-mapping at all on this display, while a scene that maxes out at 4,000 nits can get the heavy tone-mapping that it needs.

This is why dynamic metadata matters so much more for lower nit displays. The content needs to exceed the display's capabilities in order for dynamic metadata to have an impact, and the more that it exceeds it, the more impact it will have.
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post #473 of 1192 Old 12-09-2017, 02:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aron7awol View Post
The three of us all have KS8000s or equivalent, which are capable of >1,000 nits, so we should only notice a difference between HDR10 and HDR10Plus if the content is mastered higher than that, such as 4,000 nits. Does anyone know if Season 2 of Grand Tour is in fact mastered higher than 1,000 nits?
That is a really good point. Also a very good question, if anyone knows the answer.

To my eyes if everything we have seen so far as HDR is static HDR10, then at it's best it looks extremely good on our sets. On the other hand, if any of the Amazon Videos that we have seen are indeed HDR10Plus, IMO, none of it looks as good as the known YouTube examples we have of HLG.
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Sorry aron7awol I started tyoing the above while you were typing the last post that went into more detail. Thank you for that, Clarified several misconceptions for me.

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post #474 of 1192 Old 12-09-2017, 05:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aron7awol View Post
I feel like there some misunderstanding of HDR10Plus, and dynamic metadata in general, so I'm going to try to summarize in the simplest way possible, my understanding of how it works. I will ignore color volume transforms in this discussion and solely focus on tone-mapping as it relates to brightness. I will also ignore the "Active HDR" pseudo-dynamic metadata approaches.

For a display that can track the EOTF perfectly up to its max brightness of 1,000 nits...

Case 1: The static metadata informs the display that the content does not contain any highlights in excess of 1,000 nits. The display does not need to do any tone-mapping, as it can perfectly track the EOTF for every scene in the content.

Case 2: The static metadata informs the display that the content does not contain any highlights in excess of 4,000 nits. The display needs to perform tone-mapping (or clip all content above 1,000 nits), so say it starts deviating from the EOTF at 600 nits and rolls off everything above so that 4,000 nits in the content corresponds to 1,000 nits on the display. The display is now displaying everything in the content that falls in the 600-1,000 nit range dimmer than it should be, despite the display being fully capable of tracking the EOTF perfectly for that range. It has to do this for all scenes, since the metadata was static and only informed the display of the brightest highlight in the entire content, even though it may have been a single bright highlight for an instant in one scene. Still, all scenes that only contain content from 0-600 nits should still look identical since tone-mapping is not occurring in this range.

Case 3: At the beginning of each scene, the display receives dynamic metadata telling it the maximum nits in the scene. Now all scenes that do not surpass the display's 1,000 nit capabilities do not need to be tone-mapped at all. Scenes that do surpass the capabilities do need to be tone-mapped, but the other benefit is that the aggressiveness of tone-mapping can be adjusted as necessary for each scene. For example, a scene that maxes out at 1,100 nits needs hardly any tone-mapping at all on this display, while a scene that maxes out at 4,000 nits can get the heavy tone-mapping that it needs.

This is why dynamic metadata matters so much more for lower nit displays. The content needs to exceed the display's capabilities in order for dynamic metadata to have an impact, and the more that it exceeds it, the more impact it will have.
You're somewhat there, not close enough. Peppered through out many scenes, different nits per object similarly to this image from Dolby http://cdn2.expertreviews.co.uk/site...ision_nits.png

In this case, static metadata wouldn't be able to adjust brightness per scene leaving some parts of the next scene or frame to dark or to bright.

Static metadata only provides the brightest pixel and black level, dynamic metadata provides that and more, then the tone mapping being dynamic as well preserves detail that would clip.

Awesome post though.

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post #475 of 1192 Old 12-09-2017, 09:29 PM
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You're ignoring the scenario where a movie is mastered at 1000 nits, but has highlights (MaxCLL) in excess of 1000 nits. For example, Arrival is mastered at 1000 nits, but has a MaxCLL of 1514 nits. Ex Machina is mastered at 1000 nits, but has a MaxCLL of 1347 nits.

Vincent Teoh has said that Samsung's tone mapping prioritizes highlight detail over brightness, therefore we can assume that their static tone mapping algorithm is based on MaxCLL. In that case, dynamic metadata can still help the TV tone map more efficiently, even for content mastered at 1000 nits.

Then there's some content that's mastered at 4000 nits but has MaxCLL of 10,000 nits.
I intentionally ignored that scenario, because I was trying to simplify things. This is why I did not specifically say "mastered at" or "MaxCLL of" and instead said "The static metadata informs the display". I am only speaking to a scenario where the display receives accurate information via the metadata. Even with dynamic metadata, if the display receives inaccurate data it will produce a less than optimal result.
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post #476 of 1192 Old 12-12-2017, 08:45 AM
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The graphic used in that story shows a "HDR10+" logo...I wonder if they've relented and are finally going to specifically identify each HDR10+ program as I'd requested. Well, if my Prime subscription does not automatically renew I'll know for sure they still hate me.
This is great news. And just to confirm, will HDR10+ be supported on the 2016 KS8000 model? Also, will it only be available on the native Amazon app that is installed the Samsung TV or will it also work on third party streaming devices (such as Apple TV 4K) connected to a Samsung TV via HDMI?

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post #477 of 1192 Old 12-12-2017, 09:22 AM
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Originally Posted by jmbgator View Post
This is great news. And just to confirm, will HDR10+ be supported on the 2016 KS8000 model? Also, will it only be available on the native Amazon app that is installed the Samsung TV or will it also work on third party streaming devices (such as Apple TV 4K) connected to a Samsung TV via HDMI?
I've not been made aware of any collaboration between Amazon and other platforms such as the Apple TV 4K or Roku to update their Prime Video app to support HDR10+. I'm awaiting a response from the Samsung engineering team regarding which firmware version readies the 2016 models for the new format. We were under the impression that it had happened already, but I'd like to make sure.

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post #478 of 1192 Old 12-12-2017, 05:43 PM
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Does it sound odd to anyone else that the source of the announcement (unless I missed something) is Samsung?

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post #479 of 1192 Old 12-12-2017, 06:26 PM
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Does it sound odd to anyone else that the source of the announcement (unless I missed something) is Samsung?
I spent over an hour on the phone this evening with the director of product development. Amazon advised them a few days ago that the HDR10+ streams are going live tomorrow (December 13th); I searched and there are over half a dozen articles online about the launch. We should know by dawn tomorrow whether the 2016 models support the format...but only if Amazon has labeled the HDR10+ titles as such.

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post #480 of 1192 Old 12-12-2017, 07:03 PM
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I spent over an hour on the phone this evening with the director of product development. Amazon advised them a few days ago that the HDR10+ streams are going live tomorrow (December 13th); I searched and there are over half a dozen articles online about the launch. We should know by dawn tomorrow whether the 2016 models support the format...but only if Amazon has labeled the HDR10+ titles as such.
It may have been a long hour plus for you, but for what it is worth, I thank you for it and I am sure there are a lot of others who do as well!
Ralarcon, galonzo, ray0414 and 1 others like this.

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