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post #121 of 1170 Old 04-22-2017, 12:28 PM
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Originally Posted by ray0414 View Post
1 big advantages of hdr10+ could be that picture wise it's similar but has better control over settings and more adjustable. It remains to be seen. Hdr10+ may be too late in the game, should have been launched a year ago.

If the backlight automatically change scene by scene / frame by frame then is not recommended to be touch. you will be able to play with the settings like on DV but thats not recommended. unless you have a reference calibration for the display. Like the golden reference for DV displays which the idea is to bring the display closer to the directors intended.


I hope that its like DV.
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post #122 of 1170 Old 04-22-2017, 03:45 PM
 
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I'm skeptical that most current TV chipsets are upgradeable to HDMI 2.1 spec compliancy. 48Gbps is required for HDMI 2.1 vs 18Gbps now.
So many misconceptions about this. 48G is only required for some features, not all. Dynamic metadata only requires 18G.

It doesn't matter to me if it's 2.0c, or if it's 2.1 with only a few of the features working - as long as we get dynamic metadata over HDMI, I'll be satisfied. It's already been confirmed that this can happen, but it depends on manufacturer.
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post #123 of 1170 Old 04-22-2017, 04:30 PM
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So many misconceptions about this. 48G is only required for some features, not all. Dynamic metadata only requires 18G.

It doesn't matter to me if it's 2.0c, or if it's 2.1 with only a few of the features working - as long as we get dynamic metadata over HDMI, I'll be satisfied. It's already been confirmed that this can happen, but it depends on manufacturer.
You think we should stick to buying a Samsung UHD player to stay on the safe side?

I can't wait another year to buy a player. I'm either going with the UB400 or 9500 and I see no great incentive to go with the latter. Maybe I'll wait til they push the HDR10+ update to see if they give us more details.
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post #124 of 1170 Old 04-22-2017, 04:50 PM
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You think we should stick to buying a Samsung UHD player to stay on the safe side?

I can't wait another year to buy a player. I'm either going with the UB400 or 9500 and I see no great incentive to go with the latter. Maybe I'll wait til they push the HDR10+ update to see if they give us more details.
If you have to jump now, it's impossible to know which is correct. No-one knows. All we can do is speculate. It would be much better to wait.

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post #125 of 1170 Old 04-22-2017, 05:07 PM
 
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You think we should stick to buying a Samsung UHD player to stay on the safe side?

I can't wait another year to buy a player. I'm either going with the UB400 or 9500 and I see no great incentive to go with the latter. Maybe I'll wait til they push the HDR10+ update to see if they give us more details.
Who knows. But Samsung was telling people at CES this year that some of the current disc players might be able to have HDR10+ enabled on them. One would think that they were referring to the K8500, since the newer ones weren't out at the time. If that's the case though, then the newer ones would get it too.
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post #126 of 1170 Old 04-22-2017, 07:31 PM
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Who knows. But Samsung was telling people at CES this year that some of the current disc players might be able to have HDR10+ enabled on them. One would think that they were referring to the K8500, since the newer ones weren't out at the time. If that's the case though, then the newer ones would get it too.
The interesting thing is that some of these players already support dynamic brightness adjustment, and the UB line up in particular already has a setting to adjust the APL of an HDR video. It wouldn't surprise me if players could be updated to read the HDR10+ data and perform the various adjustments of the picture on behalf of the TV...
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post #127 of 1170 Old 04-23-2017, 03:42 PM
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The interesting thing is that some of these players already support dynamic brightness adjustment, and the UB line up in particular already has a setting to adjust the APL of an HDR video. It wouldn't surprise me if players could be updated to read the HDR10+ data and perform the various adjustments of the picture on behalf of the TV...
Sorry, what's "UB"? Too many TLA and TLAs .

That would be an interesting work-around to the HDMI2.1 problem, though!

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post #128 of 1170 Old 04-23-2017, 05:50 PM
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Sorry, what's "UB"? Too many TLA and TLAs .

That would be an interesting work-around to the HDMI2.1 problem, though!
The Panasonic line up of UHD players. All their players of this year and last year have built in HDR brightness settings.
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post #129 of 1170 Old 04-24-2017, 10:23 AM
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Originally Posted by losservatore View Post
If the backlight automatically change scene by scene / frame by frame then is not recommended to be touch. you will be able to play with the settings like on DV but thats not recommended. unless you have a reference calibration for the display. Like the golden reference for DV displays which the idea is to bring the display closer to the directors intended.


I hope that its like DV.

I assumed this was how DV was at first, but after comparing the default settings and overall picture quality to HDR10 on my LG I quickly realized this isn't the case. The standard DV settings on the newer LGs are terrible. Very low back light and tons of grain. Picture was far too dark in all scenes and overall picture quality was significantly worse than HDR10. After manually adjusting the settings to mimic what the HDR10 settings were the picture quality was drastically improved. At least on the LG TVs, I highly reccommend adjusting the DV settings closer to what the HDR10 settings are. Several other users have echoed my experience in some of the owner's threads.
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post #130 of 1170 Old 04-24-2017, 11:26 AM
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I assumed this was how DV was at first, but after comparing the default settings and overall picture quality to HDR10 on my LG I quickly realized this isn't the case. The standard DV settings on the newer LGs are terrible. Very low back light and tons of grain. Picture was far too dark in all scenes and overall picture quality was significantly worse than HDR10. After manually adjusting the settings to mimic what the HDR10 settings were the picture quality was drastically improved. At least on the LG TVs, I highly reccommend adjusting the DV settings closer to what the HDR10 settings are. Several other users have echoed my experience in some of the owner's threads.

Not good for the Dynamic metadata that the source send. but is your display.

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post #131 of 1170 Old 04-24-2017, 11:35 AM
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Not good for the Dynamic metadata that the source send. but is your display.


Hope that you understnd how the tone mapping works.
I understand how the metadata works. But the default settings for DV were terrible...far to dark in every scene. Adjusting them to similar to HDR10 settings made a huge improvement in overall picture quality. I don't believe the default settings from the TV manufacturer have anything to do with the metadeta DV uses. You first want good settings then the metadata only improves this scene by scene. If your settings are bad (like default are), the metadeta won't make the scenes look good. Just like non HDR content, you should adjust your settings for optimal performance. Dolby does not dial in every TV manufacturers settings, they just provide the technology for the source to send the data.
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post #132 of 1170 Old 04-24-2017, 11:47 AM
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I understand how the metadata works. But the default settings for DV were terrible...far to dark in every scene. Adjusting them to similar to HDR10 settings made a huge improvement in overall picture quality. I don't believe the default settings from the TV manufacturer have anything to do with the metadeta DV uses. You first want good settings then the metadata only improves this scene by scene. If your settings are bad (like default are), the metadeta won't make the scenes look good. Just like non HDR content, you should adjust your settings for optimal performance. Dolby does not dial in every TV manufacturers settings, they just provide the technology for the source to send the data.

I'm following what spectra cal said and also others profesional calibrators. I mean anyone can play with the settings to their taste if they want. I follow their recommendation unless they say that it wont destroy what the content creators intended.


Doing few very small adjustment probably doesn't affect too much ,but I have seen people setting to max the backlight and using all the Dynamic contrast to max. Some big changes to the picture that do more harm than good to the metadata. Also exacerbating black levels and other things,Details can still clip.

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post #133 of 1170 Old 04-24-2017, 12:16 PM
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I'm following what spectra cal said and also others profesional calibrators. I mean anyone can play with the settings to their taste if they want. I follow their recommendation unless they say that it wont destroy what the content creators intended.


Doing few very small adjustment probably doesn't affect too much ,but I have seen people setting to max the backlight and using all the Dynamic contrast to max. Some big changes to the picture that do more harm than good to the metadata.

For example on my LG UH8500 the stock Dolby Vision backlight is at 50, compared to 90-95 for what HDR10s backlight is. The end result for the default settings is a significant amount of data being crushed in dark scenes. When the backlight is pulled up to around 90 like on HDR10 the picture looks much better, detail is visible where it was once lost, and in general the picture looks much improved. In general, all HDR content needs a lot of backlight to take advantage of the additional data...this is why Nit ratings are important on HDR TVs. Setting the backlight to 50 for default keeps the light output far to low to really take advantage of the HDR data. Dolby Vision default settings should be treated like any other default settings, adjust for optimal performance. The metadata does not mean it is adjusting your settings every frame, it means it's sending updated data every frame, but the settings themselves are static and if not tuned correctly will leave all the content to looking sub par.
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post #134 of 1170 Old 04-24-2017, 01:27 PM
 
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Luckily, we won't have to deal with this on our Samsung TVs with HDR10+. I'm sure Samsung will set the proper default settings on their own TVs for their own format.
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post #135 of 1170 Old 04-24-2017, 03:18 PM
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Luckily, we won't have to deal with this on our Samsung TVs with HDR10+. I'm sure Samsung will set the proper default settings on their own TVs for their own format.
Hmm, is there a twinkle in your eye as you write that?

Remember Samsung has a mode inexplicably called "Natural", which has the most unnatural possible settings
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post #136 of 1170 Old 04-24-2017, 03:24 PM
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Luckily, we won't have to deal with this on our Samsung TVs with HDR10+. I'm sure Samsung will set the proper default settings on their own TVs for their own format.
Their Dolby / somewhat Samsung platform.

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post #137 of 1170 Old 04-26-2017, 09:49 AM
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I'm missing something here -what is the difference here between_HDR10 & HDR10+_ ? Is it just the streaming code?

I dont know if anyone answered this yet, but to compete with the dynamic HDR capability of Dolby vision, Samsung has introduced HDR10+ which is has dynamic scene by scene HDR capability like dolby vision.

This news article states that all 2016 samsung HDR TVs will recv. the update via firmware from HDR10 to HDR10+
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post #138 of 1170 Old 04-26-2017, 06:39 PM
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Bit of mess...so what's new?

My new set has HDR10 and Dolby Vision support...so I'm good (enough). Anything put out in HDR10+ will still be shown as well as my HDR10 can show it.

By the time I upgrade again 75" OLED TV's will be 2.5k and be carrying whatever the latest and greatest HDR formats exist at that time. Good enough.
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post #139 of 1170 Old 06-22-2017, 12:54 PM
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This is a disaster, I wanted to make the jump to 4k this year, but with this I have no idea what to do.


For the first time since I bought tvs, I will not buy Samsung, for not offering DV and now this HDR + mess





Not to mention 3D.
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post #140 of 1170 Old 06-22-2017, 02:01 PM
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Not to mention 3D.
No-one was mentioning it! Is that even still going? Here in the UK the broadcasters (Sky and the BBC) who dipped their toe into 3D got very badly burned and lost a whole load of money. No-one I know ever watches 3D showings of films at the cinema. (tongue in cheek, but you get the point - no demand!)

How many broadcast hours per week of new, non-movie, 3D TV programming are there available to you where you are? More than 2?

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post #141 of 1170 Old 06-22-2017, 03:46 PM
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No-one was mentioning it! Is that even still going? Here in the UK the broadcasters (Sky and the BBC) who dipped their toe into 3D got very badly burned and lost a whole load of money. No-one I know ever watches 3D showings of films at the cinema. (tongue in cheek, but you get the point - no demand!)

How many broadcast hours per week of new, non-movie, 3D TV programming are there available to you where you are? More than 2?
I dunno, but major movies are still being released in 3D, so it must still be a thing. However, since we usually have to choose between 3D, Dolby Atmos (and around here, Dolby Vision if we're willing to make a short trip) and 70mm, we seldom go to 3D showings anymore. But isn't that our point? Why all of this fragmentation and corporate combat? I'm hoping the movie industry, as well as the home video industry, unites behind providing the best possible product in one package. Probably will never happen.
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post #142 of 1170 Old 06-23-2017, 07:06 AM
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How many broadcast hours per week of new, non-movie, 3D TV programming are there available to you where you are? More than 2?
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I dunno,
Ok, please try and find out - I'd be very interested in knowing the answer?

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but major movies are still being released in 3D, so it must still be a thing.
Not really, definitely not for TV manufacturers, and only because it takes months/years to make a movie. Those decisions would have had a very long lead-time.

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However, since we usually have to choose between 3D, Dolby Atmos (and around here, Dolby Vision if we're willing to make a short trip) and 70mm, we seldom go to 3D showings anymore. But isn't that our point? Why all of this fragmentation and corporate combat? I'm hoping the movie industry, as well as the home video industry, unites behind providing the best possible product in one package. Probably will never happen.
I agree it won't, for the same reason people can't agree on the best colour or the best car. One of my friends can't wear the glasses and view the 3D "effect" due to problems with her eyesight. So, when films had 3D showings, we'd always prefer the 2D showings. If that choice was taken away from us and the industry united behind one "best possible", and that happened to be 3D, we'd all just stop going. Simple as that. Sometimes you have to give the consumer a choice, and let the market decide - and in the case of 3D, the market has spoken.
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post #143 of 1170 Old 06-23-2017, 04:12 PM
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Ok, please try and find out - I'd be very interested in knowing the answer? (How many broadcast hours per week of new, non-movie, 3D TV programming are there available to you where you are? More than 2?)
I don't know that we have access to *any* hours of 3D broadcast TV here in Los Angeles.

(...but major movies are still being released in 3D, so it must still be a thing.)
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Not really, definitely not for TV manufacturers, and only because it takes months/years to make a movie. Those decisions would have had a very long lead-time.
(The industry won't unite on one "best" standard.)
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I agree it won't, for the same reason people can't agree on the best colour or the best car. One of my friends can't wear the glasses and view the 3D "effect" due to problems with her eyesight. So, when films had 3D showings, we'd always prefer the 2D showings. If that choice was taken away from us and the industry united behind one "best possible", and that happened to be 3D, we'd all just stop going. Simple as that. Sometimes you have to give the consumer a choice, and let the market decide - and in the case of 3D, the market has spoken.

The type of 3D I would like to see in the future would not require glasses - which seems to have been the universal complaint - and would be some kind of solution that would, indeed, be "best" for everyone, including the ability to turn it off.

But, in the meantime, I don’t see any reason other than corporate greed and market place posturing why we can’t have TV sets which feature UHD/3D/DV/HDR10+/DOLBY ATMOS/DTS:X and let the competition be on any proprietary implementations, quality, style and price.

It’s one thing to say my quantum dots are better than yours, but it is quite another to force the consumer to make choices among an alphabet soup of technologies, particularly with the asking prices this year for the higher end models.

Just my attitude, I suppose, gained after my experiences with home theater, and especially of late.
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post #144 of 1170 Old 06-26-2017, 08:13 PM
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If the industry adopts HDR10+, DV HDR is as good as dead. And those of us who are early adopters who jumped on board in 2015 and 2016 and upgraded our tv's and bought the fancy new UHD players, may regret it.
DV is far from dead. Amazon signed a deal to offer DV programming earlier this year, and a handful of UHD Blu-ray players, like LG, Philips, etc, will be releasing their DV players this year. If you've ever wondered why Samsung hasn't embraced DV yet, it's because Samsung was the first to license AC-4, which is a combination of both Dolby Vision and Dolby Atmos, to be released on all their TVs to be released in 2017. Dolby AC-4 addresses the needs of next-gen video and audio services, including broadcast and internet streaming based upon ATSC 3.0 standards. AC-4 solves the current challenges broadcasters face and then some, by creating more efficient delivery of high-quality experiences (DV & Atmos), alternate language versions, and services for the hearing impaired audiences, and services for the visually impaired audiences, all from broadcast and Internet OTT services. This is going to be huge, and Samsung is the only manufacturer who has the licensing fees on this technology.
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post #145 of 1170 Old 06-26-2017, 08:31 PM
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I don't know that we have access to *any* hours of 3D broadcast TV here in Los Angeles.

(...but major movies are still being released in 3D, so it must still be a thing.) (The industry won't unite on one "best" standard.)


The type of 3D I would like to see in the future would not require glasses - which seems to have been the universal complaint - and would be some kind of solution that would, indeed, be "best" for everyone, including the ability to turn it off.

But, in the meantime, I don’t see any reason other than corporate greed and market place posturing why we can’t have TV sets which feature UHD/3D/DV/HDR10+/DOLBY ATMOS/DTS:X and let the competition be on any proprietary implementations, quality, style and price.

It’s one thing to say my quantum dots are better than yours, but it is quite another to force the consumer to make choices among an alphabet soup of technologies, particularly with the asking prices this year for the higher end models.

Just my attitude, I suppose, gained after my experiences with home theater, and especially of late.
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Hollywood and Los Angeles don't go hand in hand anymore. As a matter of fact, more movies are filmed elsewhere than in Hollywood, and the reason is because 4 out of 20 films are profitable and production studios are filming where they can get the largest tax credits and anything else to help their bottom line. Mark Rachesky figured it out, low budgets and content to captivate audiences. All the high dollar tent pole productions need as many tax credits, as little licensing fees as possible because their overhead is so high. Mark, who lives in Canada, looked at Hollywood losing focus, bought a little film company ran it like a business, and guess what? It grew. You might have heard of it, Lionsgate. This is one of his 30 companies, so he's not an expert at filmmaking. He just knows how to run a profitable company. Movie studios come and go, but I guarantee you that 10 years from now, broadcast television will be what print newspapers and magazines are today. Gannett is hurting, they all are. We're seeing a prime example of how people hold onto what they're emotionally attached to, they don't change with the times, and eventually, they suffer.
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post #146 of 1170 Old 06-27-2017, 07:57 AM
 
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Originally Posted by rolldog View Post
DV is far from dead. Amazon signed a deal to offer DV programming earlier this year, and a handful of UHD Blu-ray players, like LG, Philips, etc, will be releasing their DV players this year. If you've ever wondered why Samsung hasn't embraced DV yet, it's because Samsung was the first to license AC-4, which is a combination of both Dolby Vision and Dolby Atmos, to be released on all their TVs to be released in 2017. Dolby AC-4 addresses the needs of next-gen video and audio services, including broadcast and internet streaming based upon ATSC 3.0 standards. AC-4 solves the current challenges broadcasters face and then some, by creating more efficient delivery of high-quality experiences (DV & Atmos), alternate language versions, and services for the hearing impaired audiences, and services for the visually impaired audiences, all from broadcast and Internet OTT services. This is going to be huge, and Samsung is the only manufacturer who has the licensing fees on this technology.
not sure where you're getting your facts from, but AC-4 is audio only, not video.
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post #147 of 1170 Old 06-27-2017, 10:41 AM
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Yes and no. AC-4 is not strictly a new type of audio, like AC-3 as the beginning of Dolby Digital Audio, but AC-4 can compress the audio stream 4 times more efficiently than AC-3, which leaves room for broadcasters to deliver multiple audio streams along with better video streams. As Dolby says, "AC-4 is freeing bandwidth for broadcasters to deliver new premium audio and video experiences."

AC-4 will include Dolby Atmos, premium audio mixes in multiple languages, descriptive audio for the visually impaired, along with a better quality picture all in one stream.
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post #148 of 1170 Old 06-27-2017, 11:06 AM
 
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Samsung is holding an event that starts today, where they'll be talking about many things. Among them will be HDR10+. They'll be introducing the technology, and discussing 4K blu ray mastering for HDR10+, as well as HDR10+ in ATSC 3.0 and broadcasting.

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HDR10+ efforts in UltraHD Blu-ray mastering and playback
HDR10+ efforts in ATSC 3.0
HDR10+ efforts for movie and episodic production
HDR10+ efforts in broadcast

Why HDR10 and HDR10+?
How is HDR10+ content graded, mastered and delivered?
Studio adoption of HDR10+
HDR10/10+ in ATSC 3.0, broadcast and Blu-ray
Product plans and roadmaps
http://www.displaysummit.com/qled-an...mmit/speaking/

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HDR10 is being adopted as an HDR video format nowadays. However, it is known that the HDR10 system suffers with highlight details loss or dimming phenomenon due to the intrinsic nature of the associated static tone mapping in a consumer device. In this talk, we will present a novel HDR technology called HDR10+ based on the SMPTE 2094-40, where SMPTE 2094-40 fundamentally provides scene by scene dynamic tone mapping metadata for proper tone mapping at a device. It can be also discussed and shown how HDR10+ improves the HDR quality at a consumer display.
http://www.displaysummit.com/hdr10-beyond-hdr10/

Quote:
HDR is revolutionizing all aspects of video production and delivery, including television broadcasting. A single emission must accommodate HDR television sets with a wide variety of peak luminance capabilities without the ability to negotiate the signal from source to display. This presentation provides an overview of ATSC 3.0, its video standard, A/341, and related HDR standards. It shows how HDR10+ is applied to the broadcasting infrastructure, enables tone mapping to displays with various performance levels, and maintains the simplicity needed for real-world deployment.
http://www.displaysummit.com/hdr10-f...-broadcasting/
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post #149 of 1170 Old 06-27-2017, 11:51 AM
 
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Yes and no. AC-4 is not strictly a new type of audio, like AC-3 as the beginning of Dolby Digital Audio, but AC-4 can compress the audio stream 4 times more efficiently than AC-3, which leaves room for broadcasters to deliver multiple audio streams along with better video streams. As Dolby says, "AC-4 is freeing bandwidth for broadcasters to deliver new premium audio and video experiences."

AC-4 will include Dolby Atmos, premium audio mixes in multiple languages, descriptive audio for the visually impaired, along with a better quality picture all in one stream.
Yeah but you straight up said : "it's because Samsung was the first to license AC-4, which is a combination of both Dolby Vision and Dolby Atmos,"

AC-4 is not a combination, it has nothing to do with Video. It's an audio codec.

And also assuming that broadcasters will use saved bandwidth to add better picture quality is a rather BOLD assumption to say the least. Everything based on their prior actions suggests they would just use the extra bandwidth to add more channels at the same quality, not increase it.
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post #150 of 1170 Old 06-27-2017, 07:12 PM
 
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According to a confirmed insider over at blu-ray.com, HDR10+ will indeed be added to the UHD blu ray spec, as an optional layer, like Technicolor HDR and DV.
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