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-   -   HDR10+ Debuts on Amazon Prime Video & Samsung 2017 UHD TVs (https://www.avsforum.com/forum/465-high-dynamic-range-hdr-wide-color-gamut-wcg/2820017-hdr10-debuts-amazon-prime-video-samsung-2017-uhd-tvs.html)

imagic 04-19-2017 07:12 PM

HDR10+ Debuts on Amazon Prime Video & Samsung 2016 + 2017 UHD TVs
 
HDR10 is evolving. The new HDR10+ standard adds dynamic metadata to the HDR mix and is an open standard. Will it offer picture comparable to Dolby Vision? Click the link to read more: HDR10+ Coming to Amazon Prime Video and 2016 + 2017 Samsung UHD TVs

Lineproduct 04-19-2017 08:47 PM

2016 Samsung models are getting the HDR10+ update too. Well done Samsung.

Samsung TVs now have support for HDR10, HDR10+, YouTube HDR, and HLG. As close to a universal HDR TV as there is.

ray0414 04-19-2017 09:59 PM

Mark, did we ever get a comment from samsung about HLG videos working on 2016 tvs?

Im also curious if current HDR10 content on amazon will get converted to HDR10+ and if there will be a label for HDR10+ to differentiate the 2.

imagic 04-19-2017 10:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ray0414 (Post 52376097)
Mark, did we ever get a comment from samsung about HLG videos working on 2016 tvs?

Im also curious if current HDR10 content on amazon will get converted to HDR10+ and if there will be a label for HDR10+ to differentiate the 2.

Thank you for the reminder, I'll see if I can get a comment on HLG.

My guess is I will not yet be able to get details on what Amazon's exact plans are—yet. It looks like I have to establish a line of communication with Amazon since it's playing multiple roles in the home entertainment sphere. Certainly great questions.

Lineproduct 04-19-2017 10:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ray0414 (Post 52376097)
Mark, did we ever get a comment from samsung about HLG videos working on 2016 tvs?

Im also curious if current HDR10 content on amazon will get converted to HDR10+ and if there will be a label for HDR10+ to differentiate the 2.

Even without an official announcement, it's clear that 2016 TVs support HLG. The LG Jazz and TravelXP videos both play in HDR, as do YouTube HLG videos:

http://i.imgur.com/L2oyr0Er.jpg

Skunkbeard 04-20-2017 12:38 AM

Is there a thread or article I can read up on HDR10+? Getting Amazon onboard is a pretty big deal.

Will other TV manufacturers be able to update HDR sets to HDR10+ with ease?

wxman 04-20-2017 12:45 AM

If the industry adopts HDR10+, DV HDR is as good as dead. And those of us who are early adopters who jumped on board in 2015 and 2016 and upgraded our tv's and bought the fancy new UHD players, may regret it.

mtbdudex 04-20-2017 04:35 AM

Joe/Jane avg consumer who can't still program a basic harmony remote is soooo looost on all this.

Does the industry realize this?

AVS'ers are already the top 5% of consumers, even then we struggle to keep up.
Mark - thx for keeping us at the forefront with info.

I guess the best advice is .... buy a UHDTV when you need to buy it, try and hold off as long as possible, because there is always some new thing around the corner.

Quote:

It’ll be interesting to see how the battle between HDR10+ and Dolby Vision plays out. One major thing HDR10+ has going for it is cost—it’s open-source whereas using Dolby Vision entails licensing fees. If it mitigates issues that created an image quality gap between Dolby Vision and plain HDR10, will studios and TV makers still want to pay Dolby for its flavor of premium HDR?

One thing is for sure, HDR is taking off. Is a format war brewing? Or is there room for both HDR10+ and Dolby Vision?


Gillietalls 04-20-2017 04:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wxman (Post 52377329)
If the industry adopts HDR10+, DV HDR is as good as dead. And those of us who are early adopters who jumped on board in 2015 and 2016 and upgraded our tv's and bought the fancy new UHD players, may regret it.

I totally agree. Especially, if HDR10+ shows no visual difference. To stay relevant, Dolby will have to rethink these licensing fees they're charging manufactures.

julianb 04-20-2017 05:47 AM

I would like to know if other brands could easily support this aswell? If Samsung could push a firmware update to their 2016 TVs there should be a chance that other brands could do this to their 2016/2017 TVs aswell? I know LG is giving HLG support to their 2016 lineup trough a firmware update later this years, so why not HDR10+ too?

HDR10+ will need as many supported devices as possible to take off, and I would like to know the HW requirements for this new HDR format.

BiggAW 04-20-2017 05:54 AM

Great. My 2015 model gets no love I guess.

b0rnarian 04-20-2017 05:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gillietalls (Post 52378745)
I totally agree. Especially, if HDR10+ shows no visual difference. To stay relevant, Dolby will have to rethink these licensing fees they're charging manufactures.

I Disagree b/c I think its safe to say that Dolby Vision is way ahead of HDR10+ at this point. With their own Discs coming out, and major Hollywood studios backing them up HDR10+ has a lot of catching up to do. Not to mention, they already have a decent line-up of TVs as well as UHD Players (two so far) out. Oh did I mention all the streaming content for DV along with most movies releasing in DV in theater these days? HDR10+ has none of this going on and we don't even know how better the format is as of right now. HDR10+ doesn't have any content out, and most likely won't be produced until the end of this year, no TVs, no UHD player support yet and Samsung's own 2017 TVs won't support HDR10+ in physical media, that's planned for 2018. Who knows, by the time HDR10+ is ready, DV might go free anyways.

Rudy1 04-20-2017 06:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BiggAW (Post 52380041)
Great. My 2015 model gets no love I guess.

See post 1415 on this thread:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/166-lc...l#post51396705

alexanderg823 04-20-2017 06:17 AM

DV would nowhere be dead even if this takes off.

All studios grade theatrically for Dolby Vision. One of the primary features of Dolby Vision isn't on our consumer side, it's on the producer side - The ability to easily process one grade for multiple delivery methods - i.e. Theatrical and home releases.

b0rnarian 04-20-2017 06:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alexanderg823 (Post 52380569)
DV would nowhere be dead even if this takes off.

All studios grade theatrically for Dolby Vision. One of the primary features of Dolby Vision isn't on our consumer side, it's on the producer side - The ability to easily process one grade for multiple delivery methods - i.e. Theatrical and home releases.

Kinda a mess right now isn't it...? You see a movie in DV in theaters and then it comes out on Disc with HDR10 first/or at all... Consumers and Producers are on two different pages; guess its only a matter of time before these two formats are at each others throats.

PS: Get ready to double dip on those 4K UHD HDR10+ movies soon :D

imagic 04-20-2017 06:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alexanderg823 (Post 52380569)
DV would nowhere be dead even if this takes off.

All studios grade theatrically for Dolby Vision. One of the primary features of Dolby Vision isn't on our consumer side, it's on the producer side - The ability to easily process one grade for multiple delivery methods - i.e. Theatrical and home releases.

Not sure theatrical releases are what's going to drive mainstream HDR adoption going forward. My guess is streaming shows and broadcast TV will soon constitute the bulk of the HDR people watch.

I can see Vision surviving as "premium HDR for movies." The trick is there's a Dolby toll to be paid every step of the way. It seems that's already where things are going, with lower-tier TVs forsaking it but supporting HDR10 but higher-end TVs that appear to cinephiles (mostly, aside from Samsung) embracing Dolby Vision as of 2017.

But, I think it's lunacy that people discount Samsung and think Dolby—which has historically not been involved in video—is a shoe-in. One need only look at the ascendence of DTS to see that the company is vulnerable to being undercut on price.

alexanderg823 04-20-2017 06:37 AM

Good thing between Vudu and Netflix, the highest concentration of HDR streaming content actually is in fact Dolby Vision - a killer 95 titles available exclusively in DV on Vudu alone!

imagic 04-20-2017 06:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by b0rnarian (Post 52380801)
Kinda a mess right now isn't it...? You see a movie in DV in theaters and then it comes out on Disc with HDR10 first/or at all... Consumers and Producers are on two different pages; guess its only a matter of time before these two formats are at each others throats.

PS: Get ready to double dip on those 4K UHD HDR10+ movies soon :D

You can't use the same grading for both commercial cinema and TVs. HDR in movie theaters comes nowhere close to 1000 nits. Dolby Cinemas are very rare and far between (although more are coming). If HDR goes mainstream in commercial cinema, will it all be Dolby Vision? There's nothing I've seen that says that's the case.

puddy77 04-20-2017 06:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by b0rnarian (Post 52380801)
Kinda a mess right now isn't it...? You see a movie in DV in theaters and then it comes out on Disc with HDR10 first/or at all... Consumers and Producers are on two different pages; guess its only a matter of time before these two formats are at each others throats.

PS: Get ready to double dip on those 4K UHD HDR10+ movies soon :D

Unfortunately, HDR10+ is not part of the UHD Blu-ray spec at this time. Plus it requires HDMI 2.1. So you would likely need a new player as well. Adoption of HDR10+ on disc is likely a few years away, if ever. That's why it can only be streamed internally on Samsung TVs initially.

alexanderg823 04-20-2017 06:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by imagic (Post 52380929)
You can't use the same grading for both commercial cinema and TVs. HDR in movie theaters comes nowhere close to 1000 nits. Dolby Cinemas are very rare and far between. If HDR goes mainstream in commercial cinema, will it all be Dolby Vision? There's nothing I've seen that says that's the case.

You can though - that's the main appeal of Dolby Vision on the production side - You produce one high nit master grade and it scales it down to whatever display method is chosen whether it be cinema or TV.

puddy77 04-20-2017 06:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alexanderg823 (Post 52381001)
You can though - that's the main appeal of Dolby Vision on the production side - You produce one high nit master grade and it scales it down to whatever display method is chosen whether it be cinema or TV.

While theoretically true, Dolby Cinema grades are completely separate from home grades. The cinema does not use dynamic metadata. So they are specifically graded to their laser projectors at 108 nits and rec.2020. The same way DCI grades are totally separate from home grades.

Ralarcon 04-20-2017 06:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wxman (Post 52377329)
If the industry adopts HDR10+, DV HDR is as good as dead. And those of us who are early adopters who jumped on board in 2015 and 2016 and upgraded our tv's and bought the fancy new UHD players, may regret it.

If the TV's are up-gradable with software, I do not see why the DVD players would not be.

Cheers

Ralarcon 04-20-2017 06:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alexanderg823 (Post 52380569)
DV would nowhere be dead even if this takes off.

All studios grade theatrically for Dolby Vision. One of the primary features of Dolby Vision isn't on our consumer side, it's on the producer side - The ability to easily process one grade for multiple delivery methods - i.e. Theatrical and home releases.

Another format war, however one is free and the other one is not. Guess who is going to win ? :eek:

Cheers

JoakimMogren 04-20-2017 06:51 AM

Yeah i think dv is definitely here to stay.

alexanderg823 04-20-2017 06:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by puddy77 (Post 52381073)
While theoretically true, Dolby Cinema grades are completely separate from home grades. The cinema does not use dynamic metadata. So they are specifically graded to their laser projectors at 108 nits and rec.2020. The same way DCI grades are totally separate from home grades.

right, but the key from the production standpoint is that it's done via DV software without having to be manually tweaked as part of the workflow process.

b0rnarian 04-20-2017 06:55 AM

[QUOTE=imagic;52380929]You can't use the same grading for both commercial cinema and TVs. HDR in movie theaters comes nowhere close to 1000 nits. Dolby Cinemas are very rare and far between (although more are coming). If HDR goes mainstream in commercial cinema, will it all be Dolby Vision? There's nothing I've seen that says that's the case.[/QUOTE]

Will HDR10 ever make it to commercial cinema? There's nothing I've seen that says that's the case ;)

b0rnarian 04-20-2017 06:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ralarcon (Post 52381153)
If the TV's are up-gradable with software, I do not see why the DVD players would not be.

Cheers

But even the TVs aren't, Its only for streaming content and not Physical Media, requires 2.1 HDMI I believe.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ralarcon (Post 52381217)
Another format war, however one is free and the other one is not. Guess who is going to win ? :eek:

Cheers

The better PQ one?

puddy77 04-20-2017 07:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alexanderg823 (Post 52381313)
right, but the key from the production standpoint is that it's done via DV software without having to be manually tweaked as part of the workflow process.

Yes, in theory. But that's not how they do it. They manually create two DV grades. A 108 nit theatrical DV grade with no metadata, just like a DCI theatrical grade. Then they create a separate 4000 nit home grade with DV dynamic metadata. They are still two separate processes.

alexanderg823 04-20-2017 07:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ralarcon (Post 52381217)
Another format war, however one is free and the other one is not. Guess who is going to win ? :eek:

Cheers

considering on the audio side uncompressed PCM, Dolby, and DTS all exist side by side I think it's fair to guess that everyone's going to be a winner.

imagic 04-20-2017 07:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by b0rnarian (Post 52381369)
Quote:

Originally Posted by imagic (Post 52380929)
You can't use the same grading for both commercial cinema and TVs. HDR in movie theaters comes nowhere close to 1000 nits. Dolby Cinemas are very rare and far between (although more are coming). If HDR goes mainstream in commercial cinema, will it all be Dolby Vision? There's nothing I've seen that says that's the case.

Will HDR10 ever make it to commercial cinema? There's nothing I've seen that says that's the case ;)

Well, now you've seen someone speculate it might, right here on AVS Forum. Truly, I have no idea. Maybe Dolby will dominate. maybe Technicolor will own that. Maybe something else. Maybe there's room for everything. :cool:

Quote:

Originally Posted by alexanderg823 (Post 52381545)
considering on the audio side uncompressed PCM, Dolby, and DTS all exist side by side I think it's fair to guess that everyone's going to be a winner.

Certainly could go this way


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