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post #31 of 114 Old 07-10-2017, 05:30 PM
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A cartoon, really?
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post #32 of 114 Old 07-10-2017, 05:41 PM
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Originally Posted by drewTT View Post
Dolby Vision in a light controlled environment is a thing of beauty.

You can do a simple experiment with the VUDU app on your LG. Play the HDX stream and then switch to UHD. If you still can't appreciate the difference, I don't know what to tell you...lol.
I don't want to and don't watch my TV in a light controlled environment! And I'm probably safe to say neither do most people. I watched "Chips" UHD rented from Google- they are having a 99 cent rental special. It was very bright with a great contrast ratio. Check it out and compare. The wife and I enjoyed it.

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post #33 of 114 Old 07-10-2017, 07:00 PM
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A cartoon, really?
Yeah buddy.

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post #34 of 114 Old 07-10-2017, 07:59 PM
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Animation has unnatural lighting as compared to real life but this just goes to show that HDR10 needs fixing. If DV needs to be watched in a dark room then it needs fixing also.
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post #35 of 114 Old 07-11-2017, 09:35 AM
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Originally Posted by drewTT View Post
I would also suggest picking up one of the DV compatible bluray players and checking out Despicable Me. This has been the greatest thing I have seen reproduced by a TV, ever.
I'll probably pick this one up in spite of not having a DV-compatible display, but at least I'll get HDR - can't do a side-by-side comparison, but I have the standard bluray, so I'll just have to disc swapping and compare that way.

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I don't want to and don't watch my TV in a light controlled environment! And I'm probably safe to say neither do most people.
Yep, same here. Don't have the luxury of a real home theater, just blinds on the windows, so could be affecting my overall opinion of HDR.

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post #36 of 114 Old 07-11-2017, 01:02 PM
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Perhaps it is party due to me not just being used to it, but I don't really see the improved shadow detail. All I really notice are the shockingly bright brights. I haven't had my screen professionally calibrated, but have followed suggestions described here and elsewhere, and tailored to my own taste.

I've heard it said that HDR is just as big a leap forward as it was from SD to HD, so I was expecting something glorious and obvious. But I'm rather colorblind, so I guess it's silly for me to have those expectations. The improvements may be things that I cannot recognize.
I would say that some HDR content is underwhelming, but I wouldn't say HDR is underwhelming. Download and watch the LG Chess video in HDR. On a set that displays HDR well, it's stunning! It's definitely as big a leap forward as SD -> HD - bigger than the difference from 1080P to 4K, that's for sure. Download and watch Cymatic Jazz - the colours are richer and more 'real' than anything I have seen in SD. Those are demos tho and meant to showcase how good HDR can look - and it looks good indeed! I've watched some movies and Netflix shows in HDR and they don't have the same level of "WOW" that the above mentioned demos do. They definitely look good, but it's a small improvement over SDR rather than a big one like in the demos. That said, anytime I watch SD material, whether movies or video games, I constantly imagine how much better it could look if it was in HDR. I do think the studios need more time to really figure out how to grade for HDR, since it's still a relatively new format. Give it time, and try out the above mention videos on a set that shines with HDR.
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post #37 of 114 Old 07-12-2017, 09:34 AM
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It's not just you. I find HDR to be hit or miss based on the movie and the technician who graded it. When it "hits" it is glorious.

Take John Wick 2.. the brighter scenes in the movie look great but I find the dark scenes to be very disappointing. Light sources are overbearing and seem to blow out the shadow detail while also dulling the picture and washing out the color. I actually prefer the standard blu-ray of JW2 for this reason. Now compare this to Underworld where black is black and the lights, while bright, do not negatively impact the darker portions of the picture. The color in Underworld is also much improved over the blu-ray so I personally see this movie as a great example of HDR done right.
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post #38 of 114 Old 07-12-2017, 07:03 PM
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Originally Posted by GunmetalR56 View Post
It's not just you. I find HDR to be hit or miss based on the movie and the technician who graded it. When it "hits" it is glorious.

Take John Wick 2.. the brighter scenes in the movie look great but I find the dark scenes to be very disappointing. The shadows don't look right to me and the light sources seem to blow out the shadow detail and dull the picture. I actually prefer the standard blu-ray of JW2 for this reason. Now compare this to Underworld where black is black and the lights, while bright, do not negatively impact the darker portions of the picture. The color in Underworld is also much improved over the blu-ray so I personally see this movie as a great example of HDR done right.
I agree. A key benefit to HDR sometimes mentioned is color volume. HDR color volume isn't just having a wider color gamut, but maintaining the wider color gamut as the brightness increases. If we think of gamut as representing an area on the X,Y axis, and luma representing a height Z, then volume is X*Y*Z.

We can do all kinds of things with lights but it's hard to beat the purity of color and light that accompanies a burning torch. As we watch fireworks shows in the night time, it makes perfect sense to watch HDR in the dark as well. The full dynamic range is natural. The exploding skyrocket illuminates the nighttime sky and our faces. We don't wear sunglasses for it, the effect is limited, temporary. Below, the fireworks in the linked free downloadable HDR10 clips are graded naturally to replicate the color volume as it exists in the live show. Lots of pop in this 4k UHD HDR10 rec.2020 example. You can download the 25 second preview and if you like, the full 12 minute program, both free. Enjoy! Tom

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post #39 of 114 Old 07-13-2017, 08:14 PM
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Originally Posted by GunmetalR56 View Post
It's not just you. I find HDR to be hit or miss based on the movie and the technician who graded it. When it "hits" it is glorious.

Take John Wick 2.. the brighter scenes in the movie look great but I find the dark scenes to be very disappointing. Light sources are overbearing and seem to blow out the shadow detail while also dulling the picture and washing out the color. I actually prefer the standard blu-ray of JW2 for this reason. Now compare this to Underworld where black is black and the lights, while bright, do not negatively impact the darker portions of the picture. The color in Underworld is also much improved over the blu-ray so I personally see this movie as a great example of HDR done right.
That's because HDR10 uses static metadata, so peak brightness data thats for daytime very bright scenes. Problem is, that same data is used for nighttime scenes, causing blooming or blowout crushing the surrounding detail.

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post #40 of 114 Old 07-14-2017, 02:39 PM
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My OLED 65 B7 makes everything in HDR extremely noisy... Faulty TV? IDK, it just seems so weird, both with my Pana 4K HDR bluray-player, it's all so very noisy (HDR picture mode: cinema, standard settings). Tuning down brightness etc won't do it, noise is still there.
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post #41 of 114 Old 07-15-2017, 09:23 AM
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My OLED 65 B7 makes everything in HDR extremely noisy... Faulty TV? IDK, it just seems so weird, both with my Pana 4K HDR bluray-player, it's all so very noisy (HDR picture mode: cinema, standard settings). Tuning down brightness etc won't do it, noise is still there.
What do you mean by "noisy", like grainy?

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post #42 of 114 Old 07-15-2017, 01:13 PM
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With so much enthusiasm for HDR on home displays I've been reluctant to be a naysayer - then I saw this thread.

Let me say that I fully understand and endorse the need for HDR on image capture devices. The one advantage that film has had over digital devices is dynamic range, and this is solved with HDR capture. Now movies and TV series shot electronically can look superb, and certainly rival those shot on film.

When it comes to home displays, however, I fail to see the need for a super-wide dynamic range. Let's put out of the way the wider color gamut - that's to be endorsed, and does not need to be confined to HDR. But I fail to see why a bright sun shining through a window should be rendered at a level which can be uncomfortable.

Already most TVs have light outputs far in excess of those achieved in commercial theaters (even those theaters showing HDR). Yes, we mostly watch at home with at least some ambient light, but the advice for watching HDR at home is with minimum room lighting. So with the irises of our eyes pretty wide open, these high level nits are not a pleasant experience. I have an LG C6 oled, and even with the oled light level reduced considerably from 100, I find a lot of HDR hard going.

I have seen some HDR content which I enjoyed (except where sub-titles are involved - this has to be addressed). But so far I am underwhelmed at best, and at worst find myself searching for a non-HDR versions.
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post #43 of 114 Old 07-15-2017, 02:05 PM
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Originally Posted by d3193 View Post
With so much enthusiasm for HDR on home displays I've been reluctant to be a naysayer - then I saw this thread.

Let me say that I fully understand and endorse the need for HDR on image capture devices. The one advantage that film has had over digital devices is dynamic range, and this is solved with HDR capture. Now movies and TV series shot electronically can look superb, and certainly rival those shot on film.

When it comes to home displays, however, I fail to see the need for a super-wide dynamic range. Let's put out of the way the wider color gamut - that's to be endorsed, and does not need to be confined to HDR. But I fail to see why a bright sun shining through a window should be rendered at a level which can be uncomfortable.

Already most TVs have light outputs far in excess of those achieved in commercial theaters (even those theaters showing HDR). Yes, we mostly watch at home with at least some ambient light, but the advice for watching HDR at home is with minimum room lighting. So with the irises of our eyes pretty wide open, these high level nits are not a pleasant experience. I have an LG C6 oled, and even with the oled light level reduced considerably from 100, I find a lot of HDR hard going.

I have seen some HDR content which I enjoyed (except where sub-titles are involved - this has to be addressed). But so far I am underwhelmed at best, and at worst find myself searching for a non-HDR versions.
That's because HDR has been misrepresented to you. Imagine a scene inside a restaurant, its very bright outside the restaurant window. Its bright enough that all the detail outside the restaurant window is lost to a blooming white or blowout that detail. HDR retains that detail, adding more depth to the image.

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post #44 of 114 Old 07-15-2017, 05:58 PM
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Originally Posted by d3193 View Post
With so much enthusiasm for HDR on home displays I've been reluctant to be a naysayer - then I saw this thread.

Let me say that I fully understand and endorse the need for HDR on image capture devices. The one advantage that film has had over digital devices is dynamic range, and this is solved with HDR capture. Now movies and TV series shot electronically can look superb, and certainly rival those shot on film.

When it comes to home displays, however, I fail to see the need for a super-wide dynamic range. Let's put out of the way the wider color gamut - that's to be endorsed, and does not need to be confined to HDR. But I fail to see why a bright sun shining through a window should be rendered at a level which can be uncomfortable.

Already most TVs have light outputs far in excess of those achieved in commercial theaters (even those theaters showing HDR). Yes, we mostly watch at home with at least some ambient light, but the advice for watching HDR at home is with minimum room lighting. So with the irises of our eyes pretty wide open, these high level nits are not a pleasant experience. I have an LG C6 oled, and even with the oled light level reduced considerably from 100, I find a lot of HDR hard going.

I have seen some HDR content which I enjoyed (except where sub-titles are involved - this has to be addressed). But so far I am underwhelmed at best, and at worst find myself searching for a non-HDR versions.
You will get used to the brightness, believe me. It's just like how you step outside on a normal summer afternoon and need to squint your eyes a tad. That's natural. Imagine having the feel of that beautiful day in the comfort of your own home.

Don't be afraid of it, keep practicing! The uncomfortable period will pass and you will crave more brightness
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post #45 of 114 Old 07-15-2017, 09:49 PM
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You will get used to the brightness, believe me. It's just like how you step outside on a normal summer afternoon and need to squint your eyes a tad. That's natural. Imagine having the feel of that beautiful day in the comfort of your own home.

Don't be afraid of it, keep practicing! The uncomfortable period will pass and you will crave more brightness
But I squint because it's uncomfortable. Or I wear sunglasses - at the recommendation of my optometrist.

I am not uncomfortable in movie theaters. And I am not uncomfortable watching SDR TV at home.

Not sure I want to get used to the discomfort.

And many of these scenes with superbright areas look dark and drab in other parts of the same scene. We sacrifice well graded pictures with shadow detail in the service of more nits.

I can see that many people love this. But it hasn't won me over.
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post #46 of 114 Old 07-15-2017, 10:03 PM
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That's because HDR has been misrepresented to you. Imagine a scene inside a restaurant, its very bright outside the restaurant window. Its bright enough that all the detail outside the restaurant window is lost to a blooming white or blowout that detail. HDR retains that detail, adding more depth to the image.

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I understand what HDR displays are aiming to do, and have a TV capable of HDR, but I question the need to do this.

If the cinematographer wants me to see what is outside the window as well as what is inside, he/she can achieve that without the outside being uncomfortably bright - movies have been doing this for many years. The contrast range of my home display already far exceeds anything I can see in a theater, but just how much peak brightness to we really need - and how much is too much?
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post #47 of 114 Old 07-15-2017, 10:27 PM
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Originally Posted by d3193 View Post
I understand what HDR displays are aiming to do, and have a TV capable of HDR, but I question the need to do this.

If the cinematographer wants me to see what is outside the window as well as what is inside, he/she can achieve that without the outside being uncomfortably bright - movies have been doing this for many years. The contrast range of my home display already far exceeds anything I can see in a theater, but just how much peak brightness to we really need - and how much is too much?
It's not there for blinding brightness, when Dolby originally demoed HDR, it was all about detail and giving you what cinematographer, the producer and what the director see's.

Peak brightness is more about taking advantage of the wider color gamut, then what has been pumped by website's and marketing. If you want to experience HDR, you may want to consider adding bias lights. Colorist use them to protect their eye's, so you can do the same.



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post #48 of 114 Old 07-15-2017, 10:30 PM
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But I squint because it's uncomfortable. Or I wear sunglasses - at the recommendation of my optometrist.

I am not uncomfortable in movie theaters. And I am not uncomfortable watching SDR TV at home.

Not sure I want to get used to the discomfort.

And many of these scenes with superbright areas look dark and drab in other parts of the same scene. We sacrifice well graded pictures with shadow detail in the service of more nits.

I can see that many people love this. But it hasn't won me over.
If you're losing shadow detail, then either you need a calibration, its the content, or its display and the manufacturer needs to release a firmware update that raises how lower end gamma scale works for 2.2 gamma.

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post #49 of 114 Old 07-16-2017, 08:07 AM
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But I squint because it's uncomfortable. Or I wear sunglasses - at the recommendation of my optometrist.

I am not uncomfortable in movie theaters. And I am not uncomfortable watching SDR TV at home.

Not sure I want to get used to the discomfort.

And many of these scenes with superbright areas look dark and drab in other parts of the same scene. We sacrifice well graded pictures with shadow detail in the service of more nits.

I can see that many people love this. But it hasn't won me over.
That's interesting. When I need to squint outside, generally I'm fine with that if I forgot my sunglasses, but I definitely would prefer to have had them with me of course. But even then the HDR effect indoors pales in comparison, so I actually like to experience that feeling whenever a scene with bright highlights periodically shows up.

To be honest the only time I actually need to squint is for half to full screen whites or highlights. I guess it would be insightful to know what you're watching that's giving you discomfort.
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post #50 of 114 Old 07-16-2017, 10:28 AM
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Originally Posted by DisplayCalNoob View Post
It's not there for blinding brightness, when Dolby originally demoed HDR, it was all about detail and giving you what cinematographer, the producer and what the director see's.

Peak brightness is more about taking advantage of the wider color gamut, then what has been pumped by website's and marketing. If you want to experience HDR, you may want to consider adding bias lights. Colorist use them to protect their eye's, so you can do the same.



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As I said in my post, I'm all in favor of a wider color gamut. And my room has just enough ambient light to act as a bias.

Although my LG C6 OLED has not been professionally calibrated, it's performing pretty well (I am an ex-TV engineer and follow all the threads here about calibrating the C6 for gamma, etc.).

My comment here are based on my experiences watching HDR. Some is OK. Some is pretty bad. And I again ask the question "How much peak brightness to we need in a home display? Already we far exceed what is available in commercial movie theaters."
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As I said in my post, I'm all in favor of a wider color gamut. And my room has just enough ambient light to act as a bias.

Although my LG C6 OLED has not been professionally calibrated, it's performing pretty well (I am an ex-TV engineer and follow all the threads here about calibrating the C6 for gamma, etc.).

My comment here are based on my experiences watching HDR. Some is OK. Some is pretty bad. And I again ask the question "How much peak brightness to we need in a home display? Already we far exceed what is available in commercial movie theaters."
To be clear, you still feel discomfort while watching with ambient light? And it's only a C6 to boot? 2016 LG OLEDs already tone map HDR to a darker than normal level as well.

Honestly your experience just isn't representative of what most people feel. Unfortunately it seems like HDR is something that is intolerable for a certain percentage of the population.
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post #52 of 114 Old 07-16-2017, 04:59 PM
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To me the best part of HDR is the increased dimensionality the picture has. Everything I the screen, trees, people, objects, all have more dimension which makes the picture look more 3D. Even a movie or show that lacks fancy highlights, will still have an amazing increase in picture depth.
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post #53 of 114 Old 07-17-2017, 07:26 AM - Thread Starter
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Honestly your experience just isn't representative of what most people feel. Unfortunately it seems like HDR is something that is intolerable for a certain percentage of the population.
My experience very much mirrors d3193's. I also have an OLED.

I have abandoned watching HDR programming in favor of SDR. Maybe producers of HDR will eventually start taking it easy with all the brightness. It's exacerbated for me because I don't like ambient light in my viewing environment (because to me it makes the viewing experience less immersive). HDR seems graded for lots of ambient light (to me, at least).

An additional ill effect of the blazing fluorescent light or window (besides that it hurts my eyes) is that our eyes simply cannot make out detail within a bright area and within a dark area at the same time. Our pupils react to the bright area, thus washing out the darks. In real life, we can choose to not focus on a fluorescent light. But not so with a TV screen, which might have something to do with why HDR seems garish to me.
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post #54 of 114 Old 07-17-2017, 10:05 AM
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Originally Posted by d3193 View Post
And many of these scenes with superbright areas look dark and drab in other parts of the same scene. We sacrifice well graded pictures with shadow detail in the service of more nits.

I can see that many people love this. But it hasn't won me over.
Don't forget that HDR is still in its infancy and the studios are still figuring out how to grade for it, compared to how many years of SDR experience? A well graded HDR should NOT be sacrificing shadow detail. You should be able to see more of it while still retaining bright highlights. The highlights should look natural, not just bright for the sake of being bright. I love HDR for its ability to offer images more true to life. Now that I've experienced it, I keep thinking how much better everything would look if it was HDR. I never want to go back. Fortunately it's the way of the future and isn't going away. Display technology will catch up and studios will get it figured out, so it's only going to get better from here!

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Originally Posted by FullyArray View Post
Honestly your experience just isn't representative of what most people feel. Unfortunately it seems like HDR is something that is intolerable for a certain percentage of the population.
No, his experience is not typical, fortunately. (that doesn't mean it sucks any less for him!) I'm sure as time goes on HDR grading will improve a lot and people will be even more satisfied with it.

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Originally Posted by Zipadeedude View Post
I have abandoned watching HDR programming in favor of SDR. Maybe producers of HDR will eventually start taking it easy with all the brightness. It's exacerbated for me because I don't like ambient light in my viewing environment (because to me it makes the viewing experience less immersive). HDR seems graded for lots of ambient light (to me, at least).
HDR is recommended to be graded for an ambient brightness of 5 nits - that's equal to five lit candles in a pitch black room. HDR is NOT graded for a lot of ambient light - exactly the opposite. I watch in a dark room with only an LED lightstrip behind my TV for ambient light, and HDR looks beautiful on my TV.

I've watched both The Revenant and Logan on 4K HDR bluray, and neither of those movies are what I could consider bright. HDR is typically graded for an average picture brightness the same brightness as SDR, with only the highlights going above that when needed. Both Revenant and Logan look to be about the same average brightness as SDR unless something really calls for it being brighter. I find both movies to have very realistic and natural light levels. I'm not sure what you are watching that's "too bright", but that doesn't line up with my own HDR experience.

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post #55 of 114 Old 07-17-2017, 10:44 AM - Thread Starter
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I'm not sure what you are watching that's "too bright", but that doesn't line up with my own HDR experience.
It's things like fluorescent lights or windows that are too bright for me. To me, they are often absurdly bright. So bright that they affect my ability to make out detail in darker parts of the scene. I don't find it lifelike, I just find it annoying.

When HDR is done well, I can hardly distinguish it from SDR. When it's done poorly, the brights seem garish to me. Of course, that's just my opinion. As I've said before, I'm rather colorblind, so it's really only the bright levels that I notice (and which bug me).
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post #56 of 114 Old 07-17-2017, 01:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Zipadeedude View Post
It's things like fluorescent lights or windows that are too bright for me. To me, they are often absurdly bright. So bright that they affect my ability to make out detail in darker parts of the scene. I don't find it lifelike, I just find it annoying.

When HDR is done well, I can hardly distinguish it from SDR. When it's done poorly, the brights seem garish to me. Of course, that's just my opinion. As I've said before, I'm rather colorblind, so it's really only the bright levels that I notice (and which bug me).
It's interesting how different people see the same things in different ways. When HDR is done well, I find it much better than SDR. Richer, brighter colours (when called for), much more realistic highlights, much better shadow detail. I haven't had the brightness affect my ability to see detail in the darker parts of the scene. I'm curious what you think of Cymatic Jazz or the Sony Camp HDR demos - have you seen those?

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post #57 of 114 Old 07-17-2017, 06:20 PM
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Hdr preserves detail and colors in all areas where In SDR it can be blown out or weak looking.

Anyone who thinks hdr looks like sdr just doesn't understand what's going on with HDR.













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post #58 of 114 Old 07-18-2017, 02:03 AM
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Yep, that is how HDR is supposed to work.
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post #59 of 114 Old 07-18-2017, 02:46 AM
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Unfortunately, those two TVs are not calibrated correctly.
As a result, the HDR image is looking artificially 'better'.

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post #60 of 114 Old 07-18-2017, 08:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Light Illusion View Post
Unfortunately, those two TVs are not calibrated correctly.
As a result, the HDR image is looking artificially 'better'.

Steve
I have no clue where those pics came from, so I have no idea what's been done to those TV's. And calibrated or not, a camera won't be able to capture the images properly anyway. Regardless, this exemplifies my experience with HDR over SDR, and in that respect is a very good demonstration of the improvements you should be seeing with HDR.
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