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post #61 of 114 Old 07-18-2017, 09:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Zipadeedude View Post
It's things like fluorescent lights or windows that are too bright for me. To me, they are often absurdly bright. So bright that they affect my ability to make out detail in darker parts of the scene. I don't find it lifelike, I just find it annoying.

When HDR is done well, I can hardly distinguish it from SDR. When it's done poorly, the brights seem garish to me. Of course, that's just my opinion. As I've said before, I'm rather colorblind, so it's really only the bright levels that I notice (and which bug me).
If it's too bright you can always turn down the brightness... but at that point it's kind of defeating the purpose of HDR, and the overall content will become far darker than intended. You might as well convert to watching in SDR via your player or with like a Fury Integral so at least you can still enjoy WCG and 4K.

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post #62 of 114 Old 07-18-2017, 10:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Light Illusion View Post
Unfortunately, those two TVs are not calibrated correctly.
As a result, the HDR image is looking artificially 'better'.

Steve
Pictures taken of TV displays are notoriously deceptive. However, if my TV looked like the one on the right I would get rid of it pronto. All the SDR pics are badly blown out - but note that the second image down shows very poor shadow detail on the HDR display.

I realize that posting anything here that questions how good HDR is (or the need for it) is akin to saying how good LG TVs are in a Sony thread. But I think it is something worthy of debate.
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post #63 of 114 Old 07-18-2017, 11:20 AM
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Originally Posted by d3193 View Post
Pictures taken of TV displays are notoriously deceptive. However, if my TV looked like the one on the right I would get rid of it pronto. All the SDR pics are badly blown out - but note that the second image down shows very poor shadow detail on the HDR display.

I realize that posting anything here that questions how good HDR is (or the need for it) is akin to saying how good LG TVs are in a Sony thread. But I think it is something worthy of debate.

Actually, Dolby has been using m
Man of Steel as their hdr example for years. It is undeniable and any naysayers over the past couple years have been put to rest by actually experiencing proper setups and demos, particularly filmmakers and directors who were openly skeptical before working with it, were blown away at the difference they never realized.






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post #64 of 114 Old 07-18-2017, 03:29 PM
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It has been a learning curve for me.

The first HDR material I viewed on my LG B6 was streaming, and I was not just underwhelmed but confused about why anyone would prefer it to well done SDR material. It looked like video tape but I understood (and hoped) that at least some of the problem was my inexperience and certainly compression from streaming.

After spending some time adjusting the TV and getting to watch content via disks I am a believer. It does take some getting used to, but the additional detail is there, especially in deeper shots, and the color is just phenomenal. I am not saying that it equals the jump from VHS to DVD which to me, personally, was the big step up, or even that of DVD to Blu-ray but it is very impressive nonetheless, for it's own merits.

I have not had issues with bright highlights, I find that is part of the upgrade of HDR, but I get it that everyone is a bit different. Certainly there is a variation from disk to disk, and even scenes within the same disk, but in the opinion of my wife and myself, HDR/WCG presents a much more compelling visual than SDR. I hope if the 2016 LG OLEDS get only one more major upgrade it will be the tone mapping purportedly on the 2017s. No disrespect to the DD+/Atmos folks.

I have had some issues with my UHD player, and was toying with the idea of going back solely to 1080p disks for a few months, but after watching "Ghostbusters 2016" last night, my wife and I looked at each other and agreed that was NOT an option. HDR has not ruined SDR for us, we still enjoy well done 1080p content, but HDR is the frosting on the cake when done correctly. We will choose it every time from now on if the content allows it.
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post #65 of 114 Old 07-18-2017, 05:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Mcguinn View Post
It has been a learning curve for me.

The first HDR material I viewed on my LG B6 was streaming, and I was not just underwhelmed but confused about why anyone would prefer it to well done SDR material. It looked like video tape but I understood (and hoped) that at least some of the problem was my inexperience and certainly compression from streaming.

After spending some time adjusting the TV and getting to watch content via disks I am a believer. It does take some getting used to, but the additional detail is there, especially in deeper shots, and the color is just phenomenal. I am not saying that it equals the jump from VHS to DVD which to me, personally, was the big step up, or even that of DVD to Blu-ray but it is very impressive nonetheless, for it's own merits.

I have not had issues with bright highlights, I find that is part of the upgrade of HDR, but I get it that everyone is a bit different. Certainly there is a variation from disk to disk, and even scenes within the same disk, but in the opinion of my wife and myself, HDR/WCG presents a much more compelling visual than SDR. I hope if the 2016 LG OLEDS get only one more major upgrade it will be the tone mapping purportedly on the 2017s. No disrespect to the DD+/Atmos folks.

I have had some issues with my UHD player, and was toying with the idea of going back solely to 1080p disks for a few months, but after watching "Ghostbusters 2016" last night, my wife and I looked at each other and agreed that was NOT an option. HDR has not ruined SDR for us, we still enjoy well done 1080p content, but HDR is the frosting on the cake when done correctly. We will choose it every time from now on if the content allows it.
Huh? What the heck did you watch? lol

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post #66 of 114 Old 07-18-2017, 07:33 PM
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Originally Posted by FullyArray View Post
If it's too bright you can always turn down the brightness... but at that point it's kind of defeating the purpose of HDR, and the overall content will become far darker than intended. You might as well convert to watching in SDR via your player or with like a Fury Integral so at least you can still enjoy WCG and 4K.
Something isn't right, windows should be just showing detail outside.

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post #67 of 114 Old 07-19-2017, 07:31 AM
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...and then I watched "Logan" in UHD last night and was unimpressed.......

High Def Digest and Blu-ray.com thought it rated a "5/5" in video quality so I must have missed something.
Maybe I should try the Logan Noir version.

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post #68 of 114 Old 07-19-2017, 07:48 AM
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Originally Posted by DisplayCalNoob View Post
Something isn't right, windows should be just showing detail outside.

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It's the actual nit levels of those highlights that some people are having issues with.
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post #69 of 114 Old 07-19-2017, 09:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Mcguinn View Post
...and then I watched "Logan" in UHD last night and was unimpressed.......

High Def Digest and Blu-ray.com thought it rated a "5/5" in video quality so I must have missed something.
Maybe I should try the Logan Noir version.


you have a 2016 oled B6, And Logan is HDR10 only. unfortunately, the 2016 oleds are not great with HDR10 and do not utilize the tvs maximum potential. ive been seeing more and more 2016 oled owners say they are disappointed with their HDR10 performance but very happy with the dolby vision performance (which will maximize your tvs abilities). FWIW, Logan isn't meant to blow you away PQ wise, its more about the story. But I found the PQ of logan to be "pretty good and sharp" on my ks9800.
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heres one of the best HDR articles out there. This guy is EXTREMELY knowledgable about HDR and this article is personally recommended by Stacy Spears of Spectracal (spears and munsil calibration equipment/tools).


http://hometheaterhifi.com/technical...r-calibration/

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post #71 of 114 Old 07-19-2017, 10:09 PM
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Originally Posted by FullyArray View Post
It's the actual nit levels of those highlights that some people are having issues with.
I don't view a window as a highlight, in can have highlights present in the window, light reflecting off the glass. A highlight is more like a bright light on a strawberry. Strawberries have small pits, that should cast self shadows and bright highlights, which is light reflecting off the skin off the strawberries.

In SDR, you can't have a accurately bright and detailed interior shot and have outside the window be bright and detailed. You have to sacrifice detail outside for what's inside.



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post #72 of 114 Old 07-20-2017, 09:01 AM
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you have a 2016 oled B6, And Logan is HDR10 only. unfortunately, the 2016 oleds are not great with HDR10 and do not utilize the tvs maximum potential. ive been seeing more and more 2016 oled owners say they are disappointed with their HDR10 performance but very happy with the dolby vision performance (which will maximize your tvs abilities). FWIW, Logan isn't meant to blow you away PQ wise, its more about the story. But I found the PQ of logan to be "pretty good and sharp" on my ks9800.
I have to agree with your comments about Logan - I've got a KS8000 and I find the Logan PQ to be fantastic. It's not overly bright but doesn't need to be. I felt they were going for a very natural and life-life look, and they achieved that. I've got HDR demos that are very intense with the brightest whites and darkest darks if I want to show that off, but not every single movies needs to be like that. Logan was excellent for PQ.
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post #73 of 114 Old 07-20-2017, 10:36 AM
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Originally Posted by DisplayCalNoob View Post
I don't view a window as a highlight, in can have highlights present in the window, light reflecting off the glass. A highlight is more like a bright light on a strawberry. Strawberries have small pits, that should cast self shadows and bright highlights, which is light reflecting off the skin off the strawberries.

In SDR, you can't have a accurately bright and detailed interior shot and have outside the window be bright and detailed. You have to sacrifice detail outside for what's inside.



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In real life your eyes adjust to the very bright window in order to see the details outside, your eyes can no longer see the details in the shadows inside. So while an HDR TV (with enough static contrast) might be able to display the details outside and the details inside at the same time, you're still going to have trouble seeing the shadow details inside if the bright window has caused your pupils to shrink and you're eyelids to squint.
TLDR; overly bright highlights can crush the detail in the shadows by the reaction of your eye, and be uncomfortable at the same time.
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post #74 of 114 Old 07-20-2017, 12:06 PM
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you have a 2016 oled B6, And Logan is HDR10 only. unfortunately, the 2016 oleds are not great with HDR10 and do not utilize the tvs maximum potential. ive been seeing more and more 2016 oled owners say they are disappointed with their HDR10 performance but very happy with the dolby vision performance (which will maximize your tvs abilities). FWIW, Logan isn't meant to blow you away PQ wise, its more about the story. But I found the PQ of logan to be "pretty good and sharp" on my ks9800.
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I have to agree with your comments about Logan - I've got a KS8000 and I find the Logan PQ to be fantastic. It's not overly bright but doesn't need to be. I felt they were going for a very natural and life-life look, and they achieved that. I've got HDR demos that are very intense with the brightest whites and darkest darks if I want to show that off, but not every single movies needs to be like that. Logan was excellent for PQ.
I watched parts of this film again after reading your comments, and I agree that "Logan" is better than my first impression. It is still not my cup of tea, both technically, and content-wise, but I am in the minority. Our displays take a different approach to HDR and I would guess that impacts how certain films are perceived. Regardless, I would much rather watch it in HDR than SDR knowing that is the superior format for me.

I have generally been impressed with the B6 regarding HDR material but I haven't watched much DV content. I would rather have HDR 10 via disk than DV via streaming. I understand the 2017 LG OLEDs have better HDR-mapping so I hope, but don't expect, that we will see that implemented on the '16's.

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post #75 of 114 Old 07-20-2017, 03:14 PM
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In real life your eyes adjust to the very bright window in order to see the details outside, your eyes can no longer see the details in the shadows inside. So while an HDR TV (with enough static contrast) might be able to display the details outside and the details inside at the same time, you're still going to have trouble seeing the shadow details inside if the bright window has caused your pupils to shrink and you're eyelids to squint.
TLDR; overly bright highlights can crush the detail in the shadows by the reaction of your eye, and be uncomfortable at the same time.
Overly bright highlights that destroys detail is, "blooming", which suggest that the display white point is off and exceeds D65 or the display isn't accurately following the EOTF(PQ) curve.

Remember, the PQ curve is absolute. HDR was developed around preserving detail and increasing detail, and bringing film closer to what the human can see. Ultimately its about director intent.

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post #76 of 114 Old 07-21-2017, 07:06 AM - Thread Starter
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In real life your eyes adjust to the very bright window in order to see the details outside, your eyes can no longer see the details in the shadows inside. So while an HDR TV (with enough static contrast) might be able to display the details outside and the details inside at the same time, you're still going to have trouble seeing the shadow details inside if the bright window has caused your pupils to shrink and you're eyelids to squint.
TLDR; overly bright highlights can crush the detail in the shadows by the reaction of your eye, and be uncomfortable at the same time.
This is pretty much exactly the point I've been attempting to make, but stated much more clearly.

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Originally Posted by DisplayCalNoob View Post
Overly bright highlights that destroys detail is, "blooming", which suggest that the display white point is off and exceeds D65 or the display isn't accurately following the EOTF(PQ) curve.

Remember, the PQ curve is absolute. HDR was developed around preserving detail and increasing detail, and bringing film closer to what the human can see. Ultimately its about director intent.
We're not talking about blooming. The TV could be reproducing the brights and darks perfectly. The issue is that our *eyes* cannot make out detail in dark sections of the image when a different section of the image (e.g. the overhead fluorescent light or window) is blazingly bright.

In real life, I can choose not to focus on the overhead fluorescent light, but that's not possible when it's part of the image on the TV. I don't understand why producers of HDR content don't get this. Maybe my eyes are simply more sensitive to light than average, but clearly I'm not alone in this. It happens so often, and I find it so annoying that I choose SDR instead, which gets *plenty* bright enough for a dark viewing environment.
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post #77 of 114 Old 07-21-2017, 08:43 AM
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I watched parts of this film again after reading your comments, and I agree that "Logan" is better than my first impression. It is still not my cup of tea, both technically, and content-wise, but I am in the minority. Our displays take a different approach to HDR and I would guess that impacts how certain films are perceived. Regardless, I would much rather watch it in HDR than SDR knowing that is the superior format for me.

I have generally been impressed with the B6 regarding HDR material but I haven't watched much DV content. I would rather have HDR 10 via disk than DV via streaming. I understand the 2017 LG OLEDs have better HDR-mapping so I hope, but don't expect, that we will see that implemented on the '16's.
I haven't seen HDR on the OLED's so I only have my KS8000 with any real, extensive experience. I'll take HDR over SDR anytime - as you said, definitely a superior format. Some movies, like Logan, seem to go for a very natural look. Logan looks fantastic in that regard. It's not super saturated or going for peak brightnes. It's very clean and very natural and it doesn't need to be more. That doesn't mean I prefer all movies to go with the same look, just that I thought Logan looked perfect the way it was. It didn't hurt that I absolutely LOVED the movie as well!
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post #78 of 114 Old 07-21-2017, 08:49 AM
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This is pretty much exactly the point I've been attempting to make, but stated much more clearly.



We're not talking about blooming. The TV could be reproducing the brights and darks perfectly. The issue is that our *eyes* cannot make out detail in dark sections of the image when a different section of the image (e.g. the overhead fluorescent light or window) is blazingly bright.

In real life, I can choose not to focus on the overhead fluorescent light, but that's not possible when it's part of the image on the TV. I don't understand why producers of HDR content don't get this. Maybe my eyes are simply more sensitive to light than average, but clearly I'm not alone in this. It happens so often, and I find it so annoying that I choose SDR instead, which gets *plenty* bright enough for a dark viewing environment.
What have you watched, that has a fluorescent light with the nits so high, that its unbearable to watch?

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i constantly see posts around here about how HDR is too bright, unbearable to watch, and "blinding".

do these people live like hermits in their man caves and never venture outside?

a bright sunny day outside is over 10,000 nit lol.
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post #80 of 114 Old 07-21-2017, 10:27 AM - Thread Starter
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i constantly see posts around here about how HDR is too bright, unbearable to watch, and "blinding".

do these people live like hermits in their man caves and never venture outside?

a bright sunny day outside is over 10,000 nit lol.
I burst into flames when I step out into the sunlight. Kidding aside, if you're outside on a bright day, pretty much everything is bright, so there isn't much dark detail for your eyes to make out.

I wonder if my age has something to do with it. My daughters can see in dim light much better than I can. Maybe they can therefore also see detail simultaneously in both bright regions and dark regions better than I can. I don't know.

On the other hand, if you're constantly seeing posts around here complaining about HDR being too bright, maybe those complaints have some merit.

I still wish HDR producers would tone down the brights, especially in scenes that have bright objects mixed with dark areas. That seems to be a "feature" of HDR that people tout (this mixed bright and dark), so I wonder if producers are going overboard.
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post #81 of 114 Old 07-21-2017, 12:47 PM
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i constantly see posts around here about how HDR is too bright, unbearable to watch, and "blinding".

do these people live like hermits in their man caves and never venture outside?

a bright sunny day outside is over 10,000 nit lol.
I kind of made the same point earlier. The argument is well, I'd be wearing my sunglasses outside though.

I really do think that it's something you can get used to, even for people who know nothing but calibrated SDR in the dark at 100 nits, unless you have a condition with your eyes.


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I still wish HDR producers would tone down the brights, especially in scenes that have bright objects mixed with dark areas. That seems to be a "feature" of HDR that people tout (this mixed bright and dark), so I wonder if producers are going overboard.
I think they do go overboard sometimes in trying to showcase the amount of difference between light and dark, so much so that the scene becomes overly dark and the only thing that stands out are the lights. That's where the common complaint of HDR looking too dark comes from. It's like, I get it. We have a BIG range now with HDR Let's exaggerate that! Well that doesn't look realistic, especially if you choose to watch it with standard theater calibration.
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I kind of made the same point earlier. The argument is well, I'd be wearing my sunglasses outside though.

I really do think that it's something you can get used to, even for people who know nothing but calibrated SDR in the dark at 100 nits, unless you have a condition with your eyes.




I think they do go overboard sometimes in trying to showcase the amount of difference between light and dark, so much so that the scene becomes overly dark and the only thing that stands out are the lights. That's where the common complaint of HDR looking too dark comes from. It's like, I get it. We have a BIG range now with HDR Let's exaggerate that! Well that doesn't look realistic, especially if you choose to watch it with standard theater calibration.
our eyes did not evolve to wear sunglasses. they evolved to see well over 10,000 nits, and be quite excellent at it too.
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post #83 of 114 Old 07-21-2017, 07:49 PM
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Originally Posted by alexanderg823 View Post
our eyes did not evolve to wear sunglasses. they evolved to see well over 10,000 nits, and be quite excellent at it too.
That's true. Anyways I was playing devil's advocate. A previous poster was the one who brought up sunglasses first.

I'm curious if we can make direct comparisons between 10k nits outdoors and say 1000 nits in the dark since your pupils would be maximally restricted in the former conditions and fully open in the latter.
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post #84 of 114 Old 07-23-2017, 06:38 AM
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@Zipadeedude @obveron

I'm not sure of your setup, but maybe you need some bias lights?
HDR is not supposed to be watched in COMPLETE darkness. A bias light at 5 nits coming from behind the display can go a long way compared to a completely dark room.

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post #85 of 114 Old 07-23-2017, 07:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alexanderg823 View Post
our eyes did not evolve to wear sunglasses. they evolved to see well over 10,000 nits, and be quite excellent at it too.
Yes your eyes will adjust to a bright light source just fine. The point I was trying to make is that IF your eyes adjust to a bright light source, you are effectively unable to see shadow detail at the same time. Meaning a HDR TV may display all dark and bright detail in a scene with an indoor environment with shadow detail near black AND a bright window with outdoor detail near peak, but your pupils will contract and you won't see all the shadow detail.
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post #86 of 114 Old 07-23-2017, 08:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by obveron View Post
Yes your eyes will adjust to a bright light source just fine. The point I was trying to make is that IF your eyes adjust to a bright light source, you are effectively unable to see shadow detail at the same time. Meaning a HDR TV may display all dark and bright detail in a scene with an indoor environment with shadow detail near black AND a bright window with outdoor detail near peak, but your pupils will contract and you won't see all the shadow detail.
You may have just stumbled upon the reason why some UHD titles have annoyingly raised blacks. Or at least some colorist's reasoning behind doing that.
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post #87 of 114 Old 07-23-2017, 12:18 PM
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Originally Posted by FullyArray View Post
You may have just stumbled upon the reason why some UHD titles have annoyingly raised blacks. Or at least some colorist's reasoning behind doing that.
Nah

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post #88 of 114 Old 08-14-2017, 05:03 PM
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I have a close friend that works at Aja Video, here in N. California, and he told me that the major problem lies within the 'uncalibrated' displays that are used in mastering most HDR content. Certainly food for thought...
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post #89 of 114 Old 08-15-2017, 11:17 AM
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Originally Posted by KBMAN View Post
I have a close friend that works at Aja Video, here in N. California, and he told me that the major problem lies within the 'uncalibrated' displays that are used in mastering most HDR content. Certainly food for thought...
Maybe this is what happened to Amazon's The Last Tycoon. This series about old Hollywood looked great in the pilot episode, a treat to the eyes. Then it went HDR. Maybe someone told the DP to put key characters against bright windows, or point lights at the camera to show off the HDR. But the results are dreadful. I wonder if there's a non-HDR version available.
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post #90 of 114 Old 08-15-2017, 10:51 PM
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Originally Posted by d3193 View Post
Maybe this is what happened to Amazon's The Last Tycoon. This series about old Hollywood looked great in the pilot episode, a treat to the eyes. Then it went HDR. Maybe someone told the DP to put key characters against bright windows, or point lights at the camera to show off the HDR. But the results are dreadful. I wonder if there's a non-HDR version available.
I thought the show looked incredible on the whole, especially the use of WCG. And I guess I'm a sucker for those kinds of HDR money shots. Still not sick of seeing them.
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