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post #1 of 114 Old 07-06-2017, 11:49 AM - Thread Starter
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Not impressed with HDR

The only difference I've noticed is that highlights are way brighter. Despite really wanting to be impressed (because I paid a ransom for my OLED TV), I am completely underwhelmed. I've watched a lot of material, both Dolby Vision and HDR10, some of which is deemed visually stunning.

I actually prefer SDR. I don't like having my eyes burned out by specular highlights or sections of an image that dominate a whole scene (e.g. fluorescent lights). I've verified that my TV settings are for dark viewing environments.

SDR gets plenty bright. I don't understand it. Am I alone in this? What do you like about HDR? Maybe I need to take an image quality appreciation course.
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post #2 of 114 Old 07-06-2017, 01:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zipadeedude View Post
The only difference I've noticed is that highlights are way brighter. Despite really wanting to be impressed (because I paid a ransom for my OLED TV), I am completely underwhelmed. I've watched a lot of material, both Dolby Vision and HDR10, some of which is deemed visually stunning.

I actually prefer SDR. I don't like having my eyes burned out by specular highlights or sections of an image that dominate a whole scene (e.g. fluorescent lights). I've verified that my TV settings are for dark viewing environments.

SDR gets plenty bright. I don't understand it. Am I alone in this? What do you like about HDR? Maybe I need to take an image quality appreciation course.
Well the other benefit is the colors, HDR utilizes the wide color gamut while SDR does not. The colors are honestly what I prefer over the lighting. Also all TVs HDR settings should be adjusted just like SDR settings. If you're still using the default HDR settings they are probably not very good.
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post #3 of 114 Old 07-06-2017, 02:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zipadeedude View Post
The only difference I've noticed is that highlights are way brighter. Despite really wanting to be impressed (because I paid a ransom for my OLED TV), I am completely underwhelmed. I've watched a lot of material, both Dolby Vision and HDR10, some of which is deemed visually stunning.

I actually prefer SDR. I don't like having my eyes burned out by specular highlights or sections of an image that dominate a whole scene (e.g. fluorescent lights). I've verified that my TV settings are for dark viewing environments.

SDR gets plenty bright. I don't understand it. Am I alone in this? What do you like about HDR? Maybe I need to take an image quality appreciation course.
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Originally Posted by Zipadeedude View Post
The only difference I've noticed is that highlights are way brighter. Despite really wanting to be impressed (because I paid a ransom for my OLED TV), I am completely underwhelmed. I've watched a lot of material, both Dolby Vision and HDR10, some of which is deemed visually stunning.

I actually prefer SDR. I don't like having my eyes burned out by specular highlights or sections of an image that dominate a whole scene (e.g. fluorescent lights). I've verified that my TV settings are for dark viewing environments.

SDR gets plenty bright. I don't understand it. Am I alone in this? What do you like about HDR? Maybe I need to take an image quality appreciation course.
Well the other benefit is the colors, HDR utilizes the wide color gamut while SDR does not. The colors are honestly what I prefer over the lighting. Also all TVs HDR settings should be adjusted just like SDR settings. If you're still using the default HDR settings they are probably not very good.
It may take some time for you to appreciate the benefits of HDR. It took me a while to really get used to the benefits it provides.

You should notice a wider range of colors, increased highlights, and increased shadow detail. HDR isn't supposed to make an image brighter, howevever also increase detail in dark scenes. Check out the revanant as a great example. Plenty of dark detail and HDR "pop" in the outdoor scenes. Maybe try DeadPool, Power Rangers or Xmen Apocalypse?

What have you currently seen?
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post #4 of 114 Old 07-06-2017, 10:35 PM
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Well if your TV is like mine it does a pretty good job of simulating HDR with everything. The wife and I just notice how much better everything looks compared to the old HD set. So your set may have spoiled you to the subtle difference. That being said there is an improvement when watching true HDR. I can see increased contrast ratio and better color. As far as burning your eyes out with HDR. If your set is like mine, you can still turn down the contrast. In my case I turn down the backlight. The problem for me is a lot of HDR seems to be mastered too dark. Check out Youtube HDR, that is how it all should be. I can watch in my room with sunlight streaming in and it still is plenty bright.
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post #5 of 114 Old 07-06-2017, 11:13 PM
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I've the W1070 projector and a SDR monitor with 3000:1 native contrast but I really enjoy watching HDR youtube/movies on them, because of increased contrast ratio and better color.
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post #6 of 114 Old 07-07-2017, 06:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Bill View Post
Well if your TV is like mine it does a pretty good job of simulating HDR with everything. The wife and I just notice how much better everything looks compared to the old HD set. So your set may have spoiled you to the subtle difference. That being said there is an improvement when watching true HDR. I can see increased contrast ratio and better color. As far as burning your eyes out with HDR. If your set is like mine, you can still turn down the contrast. In my case I turn down the backlight. The problem for me is a lot of HDR seems to be mastered too dark. Check out Youtube HDR, that is how it all should be. I can watch in my room with sunlight streaming in and it still is plenty bright.
I agree with you whole-heartedly on this. These 4K blu rays are just mastered too dark. I think I read an article a year or so back that HDR is to be watched in a totally dark room or at least a room with very minimal lighting. It'll probably be another year or two before the studios actually get a good grip on how to master these home videos.
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post #7 of 114 Old 07-07-2017, 08:00 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Gillietalls View Post
I agree with you whole-heartedly on this. These 4K blu rays are just mastered too dark. I think I read an article a year or so back that HDR is to be watched in a totally dark room or at least a room with very minimal lighting. It'll probably be another year or two before the studios actually get a good grip on how to master these home videos.
now that i've used active HDR on the 2017 OLEDs, i'm not too sure they're really mastered dark anymore, and the darkness may just be a result of bad tone mapping.

the active HDR fixes that problem immediately.
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post #8 of 114 Old 07-07-2017, 08:33 AM
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Originally Posted by alexanderg823 View Post
now that i've used active HDR on the 2017 OLEDs, i'm not too sure they're really mastered dark anymore, and the darkness may just be a result of bad tone mapping.

the active HDR fixes that problem immediately.
Good to know. Is the active HDR the Dynamic Contrast setting from years past? Both my EF9500 and E6 brightness improve drastically for HDR content once I switch the setting to 'Low.'
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post #9 of 114 Old 07-07-2017, 08:40 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Gillietalls View Post
Good to know. Is the active HDR the Dynamic Contrast setting from years past? Both my EF9500 and E6 brightness improve drastically for HDR content once I switch the setting to 'Low.'
it is the low setting, but it functions differently.

essentially what it does on the 2017 model is that it enables tonemapping on a frame by frame basis.

so if say a scene calls for 500 nit highlight, it won't tonemap the frame and correct brightness without dimming the image. makes a dramatic difference especially in 4,000 nit mastered content.
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post #10 of 114 Old 07-07-2017, 12:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Zipadeedude View Post
The only difference I've noticed is that highlights are way brighter. Despite really wanting to be impressed (because I paid a ransom for my OLED TV), I am completely underwhelmed. I've watched a lot of material, both Dolby Vision and HDR10, some of which is deemed visually stunning.

I actually prefer SDR. I don't like having my eyes burned out by specular highlights or sections of an image that dominate a whole scene (e.g. fluorescent lights). I've verified that my TV settings are for dark viewing environments.

SDR gets plenty bright. I don't understand it. Am I alone in this? What do you like about HDR? Maybe I need to take an image quality appreciation course.
You don't notice the vastly improved shadow detail, the deeper and richer color. The lack of blooming through windows, when the sun is bright.

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post #11 of 114 Old 07-07-2017, 09:30 PM
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Check out "Meridian" on Netflix and Youtube and you'll see what I'm talking about.

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post #12 of 114 Old 07-07-2017, 11:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Gillietalls View Post
I agree with you whole-heartedly on this. These 4K blu rays are just mastered too dark. I think I read an article a year or so back that HDR is to be watched in a totally dark room or at least a room with very minimal lighting. It'll probably be another year or two before the studios actually get a good grip on how to master these home videos.
That's how they should be mastered IMO. Watching in lit rooms results in an inherently diminished experience, the reference should be in a properly darkened room.
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post #13 of 114 Old 07-07-2017, 11:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Zipadeedude View Post
The only difference I've noticed is that highlights are way brighter. Despite really wanting to be impressed (because I paid a ransom for my OLED TV), I am completely underwhelmed. I've watched a lot of material, both Dolby Vision and HDR10, some of which is deemed visually stunning.

I actually prefer SDR. I don't like having my eyes burned out by specular highlights or sections of an image that dominate a whole scene (e.g. fluorescent lights). I've verified that my TV settings are for dark viewing environments.

SDR gets plenty bright. I don't understand it. Am I alone in this? What do you like about HDR? Maybe I need to take an image quality appreciation course.
Well, I for one am not blown away either by HDR - sure, it does look nicer overall in my opinion, but my jaw never drops. For me it is just an incremental improvement, not a game-changing one. I'm sure to be in a minority, but that's just me feeling on the matter.

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I agree with you whole-heartedly on this. These 4K blu rays are just mastered too dark. I think I read an article a year or so back that HDR is to be watched in a totally dark room or at least a room with very minimal lighting. It'll probably be another year or two before the studios actually get a good grip on how to master these home videos.
I know what you're saying about being too dark, but Hacksaw Ridge was one that seemed to be "just right" to on the "too bright" side, at least on my set. I actually turned the brightness down quite a bit and found it a more pleasing by doing so.

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post #14 of 114 Old 07-07-2017, 11:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zipadeedude View Post
The only difference I've noticed is that highlights are way brighter. Despite really wanting to be impressed (because I paid a ransom for my OLED TV), I am completely underwhelmed. I've watched a lot of material, both Dolby Vision and HDR10, some of which is deemed visually stunning.

I actually prefer SDR. I don't like having my eyes burned out by specular highlights or sections of an image that dominate a whole scene (e.g. fluorescent lights). I've verified that my TV settings are for dark viewing environments.

SDR gets plenty bright. I don't understand it. Am I alone in this? What do you like about HDR? Maybe I need to take an image quality appreciation course.
I can tell you this much, I was also underwhelmed with HDR. No I do not have an OLED or a particularity expensive TV. It is an LG and it does have HDR and Dolby Vision, but if you want to see 4k AND HDR can do I highly recommend Planet Earth II it is beyond spectaclular.
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post #15 of 114 Old 07-07-2017, 11:48 PM
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I can tell you this much, I was also underwhelmed with HDR. No I do not have an OLED or a particularity expensive TV. It is an LG and it does have HDR and Dolby Vision, but if you want to see 4k AND HDR can do I highly recommend Planet Earth II it is beyond spectaclular.
The best way to appreciate HDR, is viewing a films side by side on two different displays. One HDR other SDR. If a film is a to dark, chances are the film was graded improperly. The other is your display, which could be calibrated for a higher gamma.

HDR is about detail, lost on SDR graded sources. It also about bringing you as close as possible to what the human eye's see. If your not seeing what HDR represents, then you're not accurately experiencing what HDR is.

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post #16 of 114 Old 07-08-2017, 12:00 AM
 
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I can tell you this much, I was also underwhelmed with HDR. No I do not have an OLED or a particularity expensive TV. It is an LG and it does have HDR and Dolby Vision, but if you want to see 4k AND HDR can do I highly recommend Planet Earth II it is beyond spectaclular.
Don't you have an LG with fake 4k? The "HDR" on your TV is not HDR, and this problem exists on many cheaper TVs. It does not have even close to the brightness necessary, and I don't even think it has the 10-bit panel for WCG. Basically, it's like driving a Fiero with a Ferrari body kit on it and saying that you weren't impressed with the performance of a Ferrari.
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post #17 of 114 Old 07-08-2017, 08:41 AM
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HDR is about detail, lost on SDR graded sources. It also about bringing you as close as possible to what the human eye's see. If your not seeing what HDR represents, then you're not accurately experiencing what HDR is.
Some of this could also be expectation bias? I think one can read a lot about what HDR is/does, etc., etc., and then simply expect more than it was intended to deliver and not necessarily appreciate the value add? Dunno, just a guess....
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post #18 of 114 Old 07-08-2017, 10:46 AM
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I'm impressed with HDR. I see a marked improvement over SD and HD. Would hate to go back.

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post #19 of 114 Old 07-09-2017, 10:19 AM
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Don't you have an LG with fake 4k? The "HDR" on your TV is not HDR, and this problem exists on many cheaper TVs. It does not have even close to the brightness necessary, and I don't even think it has the 10-bit panel for WCG. Basically, it's like driving a Fiero with a Ferrari body kit on it and saying that you weren't impressed with the performance of a Ferrari.
No the LG set I have is true 4K. There however was much speculation as many of the LG sets use a RGBW sub pixel structure, but on the thread for my tv here some owners took macro photos of the screen and it DOES in fact have a RGB sub pixel structure. So it is indeed 4k.
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post #20 of 114 Old 07-09-2017, 12:57 PM
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Don't you have an LG with fake 4k? The "HDR" on your TV is not HDR, and this problem exists on many cheaper TVs. It does not have even close to the brightness necessary, and I don't even think it has the 10-bit panel for WCG. Basically, it's like driving a Fiero with a Ferrari body kit on it and saying that you weren't impressed with the performance of a Ferrari.
Any TV that supports Dolby Vision has to be able to process and display a 10 bit image correctly, so his TV can't have "fake HDR". Also 8 bit + dithering TVs still deliver the same WCG a 10 bit TV does without dithering...in fact some of the best WCGs tested are from 8 bit TVs with dithering.
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post #21 of 114 Old 07-09-2017, 04:47 PM
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The best way to appreciate HDR, is viewing a films side by side on two different displays. One HDR other SDR. If a film is a to dark, chances are the film was graded improperly. The other is your display, which could be calibrated for a higher gamma.

HDR is about detail, lost on SDR graded sources. It also about bringing you as close as possible to what the human eye's see. If your not seeing what HDR represents, then you're not accurately experiencing what HDR is.

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I think the whole realism aspect of HDR would be far better served if they didn't master to 100 nits APL like SDR does. Nothing feels real to me when everything looks so dim. It should be more like 300-400.

Never did get the 100 nit dark room standard. My eyes can easily take 2-3x that without fatigue.
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post #22 of 114 Old 07-09-2017, 06:16 PM
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HDR should put the TV at half brightness instead of full brightness. Then it can be darkened or brightened to taste or the room lighting. I think the typical TV buyer will say "WTF! I can't turn up the brightnes. I'm taking this HDR TV back".
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I think the whole realism aspect of HDR would be far better served if they didn't master to 100 nits APL like SDR does. Nothing feels real to me when everything looks so dim. It should be more like 300-400.

Never did get the 100 nit dark room standard. My eyes can easily take 2-3x that without fatigue.
I don't think that's true for all HDR masters, and far from a requirement. It's one of the way detail in clothing and materials are brought out, increasing the nits. That's what you notice with Despicable Me, it's brighter, highlighting detail that would get washed out in SDR.

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post #24 of 114 Old 07-09-2017, 10:41 PM
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HDR should put the TV at half brightness instead of full brightness. Then it can be darkened or brightened to taste or the room lighting. I think the typical TV buyer will say "WTF! I can't turn up the brightnes. I'm taking this HDR TV back".

That might be possible on future HDR TVs that potentially could have maximum peak brightness levels of over, say, 4000 nits.

However, on current HDR TVs that struggle to hit over 1000 nits, having the TV's Backlight (overall brightness) maxed-out is, unfortunately, a necessity.

Given the fact that HDR content is currently being graded and mastered to maximum brightness levels of anywhere from 1000-4000 nits, the only way today's HDR sets can reach those brightness levels (or get anywhere close to them) is by maximizing the Backlight (brightness) and Contrast levels.


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post #25 of 114 Old 07-09-2017, 11:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Zipadeedude View Post
Not impressed with HDR

The only difference I've noticed is that highlights are way brighter. Despite really wanting to be impressed (because I paid a ransom for my OLED TV), I am completely underwhelmed. I've watched a lot of material, both Dolby Vision and HDR10, some of which is deemed visually stunning.

I actually prefer SDR. I don't like having my eyes burned out by specular highlights or sections of an image that dominate a whole scene (e.g. fluorescent lights). I've verified that my TV settings are for dark viewing environments.

SDR gets plenty bright. I don't understand it. Am I alone in this? What do you like about HDR? Maybe I need to take an image quality appreciation course.

Well, first of all, I'm sorry to hear that your OLED TV had been taken "hostage". I'm glad you got it back. I hope the "ransom" you had to pay to get it back wasn't too high.



As to you not being impressed with HDR...

No, you are certainly not alone in feeling the way you do about HDR.

HDR does (at least for some people) take some getting used to.

Why? Because our eyes and brain have been conditioned to viewing SDR content that was graded and mastered with a maximum brightness level of only 100 nits (cd/m²) for TVs (48 nits for movie theaters) - which is much much lower than what we actually see in the "real world" - and with a much smaller color gamut/range than what we see in nature.

Since this is what we have been used to seeing on our TVs all these years, to some, HDR content "just doesn't look quite right" - the highlights seem far too bright, the colors look far to 'saturated', etc.

It is similar to HFR (High Frame Rates). Because we have been conditioned to seeing movies at 24fps all these years, higher frame rates just don't look right.

That said, there is a lot more to HDR than bright specular highlights and brighter more saturated colors.

HDR, combined with a Wide Color Gamut (WCG) and an increased Bit-Depth (from 8-bit to 10-bit or even 12-bit), is about having the ability to reproduce the world around us as accurately, realistically, and detailed as possible on a display. It is about the potential of brighter whites with more detailed "specular highlights" and deeper blacks with more "shadow detail".

The natural world has a much broader range of color and brightness than current broadcast TV, Blu-rays, and Cinema systems support. A bright sunny day can have specular highlights that reach over 100,000 nits. Direct sunlight is around 1,600,000,000 nits.

For more of my thoughts on this, you can check out my article >What is Color Volume<

Also check out >THIS POST< in that same thread.


Richard
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post #26 of 114 Old 07-10-2017, 08:55 AM - Thread Starter
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Perhaps it is party due to me not just being used to it, but I don't really see the improved shadow detail. All I really notice are the shockingly bright brights. I haven't had my screen professionally calibrated, but have followed suggestions described here and elsewhere, and tailored to my own taste.

I've heard it said that HDR is just as big a leap forward as it was from SD to HD, so I was expecting something glorious and obvious. But I'm rather colorblind, so I guess it's silly for me to have those expectations. The improvements may be things that I cannot recognize.
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post #27 of 114 Old 07-10-2017, 08:58 AM
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Originally Posted by DisplayCalNoob View Post
I don't think that's true for all HDR masters, and far from a requirement. It's one of the way detail in clothing and materials are brought out, increasing the nits. That's what you notice with Despicable Me, it's brighter, highlighting detail that would get washed out in SDR.

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I don't own a lot of titles but the brightest ones I have so far are Miss Peregrine's and Planet Earth, and I'm still increasing the player contrast as a workaround. Guess I just like a bright picture.

Basically I'm saying the same thing Bill is. Even though movies are mastered to 1000 or 4000 nits max the APL is still around 100 nits. Why? Why so much headroom for the range between 100-1000? I think this must be one of those outdated things left over from old days where most tvs could only reliably hit 100 nits so they made that the calibration standard.

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post #28 of 114 Old 07-10-2017, 02:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Bill View Post
HDR should put the TV at half brightness instead of full brightness. Then it can be darkened or brightened to taste or the room lighting. I think the typical TV buyer will say "WTF! I can't turn up the brightnes. I'm taking this HDR TV back".
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Originally Posted by King Richard View Post
That might be possible on future HDR TVs that potentially could have maximum peak brightness levels of over, say, 5000 nits.

However, on current HDR TVs that struggle to hit 1500-2000 nits, many of them can't even hit 1000 nits, having the TV's Backlight (overall brightness) maxed-out is, unfortunately, a necessity.

Given the fact that HDR content is currently being graded and mastered to maximum brightness levels of anywhere from 1000-4000 nits, the only way today's HDR sets can reach those brightness levels (or get anywhere close to them) is by maximizing the Backlight (brightness) and Contrast levels.


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I'll have to check my set again, but pretty sure it sets at max. brightness automatically (appears to be scale of 0-50) - I don't think I can turn up the brightness, but it does let me turn it down (which I did for Hacksaw Ridge actually). Just going from memory though at the moment.....

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I've heard it said that HDR is just as big a leap forward as it was from SD to HD, so I was expecting something glorious and obvious.
I definitely don't see it as a monumental leap forward, I'd call it incremental, but just my opinion. My eyes might not be calibrated for HDR....

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post #29 of 114 Old 07-10-2017, 03:47 PM
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Dolby Vision in a light controlled environment is a thing of beauty.

You can do a simple experiment with the VUDU app on your LG. Play the HDX stream and then switch to UHD. If you still can't appreciate the difference, I don't know what to tell you...lol.

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I would also suggest picking up one of the DV compatible bluray players and checking out Despicable Me. This has been the greatest thing I have seen reproduced by a TV, ever.

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