Will Samsung and Panasonic succumb to the Dark Side - Page 3 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
View Poll Results: Which HDR Formats will be supported by your next equipment purchase
HDR10 only 3 1.95%
HDR10/HDR10+ 23 14.94%
HDR10/Dolby Vision 61 39.61%
HDR10/HDR10+/Dolby Vision 67 43.51%
Voters: 154. You may not vote on this poll

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post #61 of 158 Old 11-01-2017, 10:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lineproduct View Post
Yes, it looks like that's what you're referring to. An issue that Sony admitted was exclusive to their TVs.
Is it a Transformer or Annabelle issue?

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post #62 of 158 Old 11-04-2017, 10:44 AM
 
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Elevated black level issue reported on Westworld in DV. I guess Dolby won't bother with a fix for this.

Also, Westworld sounds like a disappointing first DV release by WB.
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post #63 of 158 Old 11-06-2017, 08:14 AM
 
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OP - might want to add Philips TP to your title.

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post #64 of 158 Old 11-06-2017, 11:37 AM - Thread Starter
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Ughhhhh...No

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Originally Posted by Lineproduct View Post
OP - might want to add Philips to your title.


No need. In fact I could drop Panasonic from the title. I think we all agree that Samsung is the linchpin in the HDR10+ universe.


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post #65 of 158 Old 11-06-2017, 11:50 AM
 
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No need. In fact I could drop Panasonic from the title. I think we all agree that Samsung is the linchpin in the HDR10+ universe.

They're the ones who spearheaded this excellent project, sure. But it's an open format, and the other alliance members, which now includes Philips TP/Europe, have contributed much of their own work to it. That's the great thing about HDR10+, various different TV manufacturers, chip manufacturers, movie studios, etc., that will end up supporting the format will contribute their own work. What better way to advance HDR10+, and HDR in general, than to have the top manufacturers and film studios offering their expertise to this format? As opposed to a single entity implementing a blackbox format. if DV was an open format, this widespread grey letterbox issue, which still persists today, would have been fixed by now.

It's no wonder the BDA will be adopting HDR10+ as the standard on every 4K disc.
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post #66 of 158 Old 11-06-2017, 12:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Lineproduct View Post
They're the ones who spearheaded this excellent project, sure. But it's an open format, and the other alliance members, which now includes Philips TP/Europe, have contributed much of their own work to it. That's the great thing about HDR10+, various different TV manufacturers, chip manufacturers, movie studios, etc., that will end up supporting the format will contribute their own work. What better way to advance HDR10+, and HDR in general, than to have the top manufacturers and film studios offering their expertise to this format? As opposed to a single entity implementing a blackbox format. if DV was an open format, this widespread grey letterbox issue, which still persists today, would have been fixed by now.

It's no wonder the BDA will be adopting HDR10+ as the standard on every 4K disc.
So Transformers TLK and Arabella Creation has gray bars? I asked you this same question nearly a week ago with no response, so what's the deal?



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post #67 of 158 Old 11-06-2017, 12:12 PM
 
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So Transformers TLK and Arabella Creation has gray bars? I asked you this same question nearly a week ago with no response, so what's the deal?



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Transformers definitely does. it was discussed on blu-ray.com forum. The latest DV release, Westworld, does as well.

I don't know what Arabella Creation is.
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post #68 of 158 Old 11-06-2017, 04:07 PM
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https://www.flatpanelshd.com/news.ph...&id=1509971844

It begins, I said this before. Why pay Dolby royalties when there is a free open standard that does exactly the same thing. Especially when HDR10+ is also a mandatory part of hdmi 2.1 .

All the manufacturers next year will have HDR10+ support in their new models, dolby vision will remain optional and niche.
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post #69 of 158 Old 11-06-2017, 04:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mozmo View Post
https://www.flatpanelshd.com/news.ph...&id=1509971844

It begins, I said this before. Why pay Dolby royalties when there is a free open standard that does exactly the same thing. Especially when HDR10+ is also a mandatory part of hdmi 2.1 .

All the manufacturers next year will have HDR10+ support in their new models, dolby vision will remain optional and niche.
Although the US arm of Philips has chosen to support Dolby Vision, this further down in the article. Everyone is WINNING.

I wonder how much weight Philips, Samsung, and Panasonic has in Hollywood compared to Dolby decades.

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post #70 of 158 Old 11-06-2017, 04:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Lineproduct View Post
Transformers definitely does. it was discussed on blu-ray.com forum. The latest DV release, Westworld, does as well.

I don't know what Arabella Creation is.
That's the phone spelling correction at work.

You're awesome, one week WB has yet to support DV on disc, the following week, when they do, you waist no time pouncing on whatever negative news that follows it.



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post #71 of 158 Old 11-06-2017, 05:19 PM
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Although the US arm of Philips has chosen to support Dolby Vision, this further down in the article. Everyone is WINNING.

I wonder how much weight Philips, Samsung, and Panasonic has in Hollywood compared to Dolby decades.

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TCL only support dolby vision in the US, outside of the US dolby vision can only be found in LG TVs.
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post #72 of 158 Old 11-06-2017, 05:28 PM
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TCL only support dolby vision in the US, outside of the US dolby vision can only be found in LG TVs.
That's not true, there's like two or three other brands.

Bang & Olufsen, Lowe Bild, and Sony will be by the end of the year.

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post #73 of 158 Old 11-06-2017, 10:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Unhappy I don’t think so

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All the manufacturers next year will have HDR10+ support in their new models, dolby vision will remain optional and niche.

Please provide a link for this ^ statement.


I would be pleased if this was true, but alas I believe you have misspoken. It would be great if all manufacturers supported HDR10+. I would have no qualms choosing the display that also supported Dolby Vision.


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post #74 of 158 Old 11-07-2017, 11:14 PM
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Wow, that’s a lame excuse, even for you.


I can read just fine, thank you. The post you link doesn’t support your statements (going to be) (will be).


Will wait for you to address your FALSE statements in the proper tread.


In case you forget where it is, here is the link: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/465-high-dynamic-range-hdr-wide-color-gamut-wcg/2631409-dolby-vision-vs-hdr10-8.html#post55087452



100% true. Rudy's passing on Information that is speculation. And as u pointed out includes "if" and "could", as pointed out over on BluRay.com as well, which is pure speculation and nothing else. Yet the poster continues to push that speculation as fact telling people that it "will" happen. Completely misleading people that truly are not informed on the subject and looking for "real" information.
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post #75 of 158 Old 11-11-2017, 03:50 PM - Thread Starter
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Thumbs up HDR video formats - the prospects

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"...Inpractice, probably few consumers are aware of all the ins and outs. Universal HDR support is a strong selling point. It works like an insurance premium. After all, as a consumer you never know what will happen in the future. ...
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Do I favor oneparticular HDR format? I advocate universal HDR support (especially inhardware) but that doesn’t mean I think HDR formats stand equal chances. HDR10 is omnipresent and Dolby Vision unlikely to be beaten as the premium format. HLG stands a chance of establishing itself as the format for broadcast TV and live OTT streaming but needs to work harder to gain support. SL-HDR1 and HDR10+ seem to be fighting an uphill battle and running behind." [Yoeri Geutskens]

https://www.flatpanelshd.com/focus.php?subaction=showfull&id=1510231527
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Is there an HDRformat war? Earlier this year I argued there is not. Now, it’s become more contentious. There are more formats now and suddenly there’s a blank space int he centre of the venn diagram, so consumers are still forced to choose. Will anyone choose HDR10+ over Dolby Vision? Perhaps die-hard Samsung fans will but otherwise it seems unlikely, given the current state of affairs, especially with respect to content.
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In practice, probably few consumers are aware of all the ins and outs. Universal HDR support is a strong selling point. It works like an insurance premium. After all, as a consumer you never know what will happen in the future. Personally, I was worried that TV makers implementing Dolby’s VS10 playback engine would have ahard time customizing anything, particularly adding HDR10+ support, which Dolby surely never will add to their solution. At least one Semiconductor vendor however has already added it to their silicon/software, so question becomes which will become first TV brand to support this. So far LG is the king of multi-HDR support. It’s not a given at all they’ll support HDR10+ though because of the eternal LG–Samsung rivalry. Perhaps Sony will, or high-end brands such as B&O and Loewe. They can afford it, and likely are not interested in choosing sides. Philips also could do it, but right now TPV doesn’t support Dolby Vision in Europe while P&F USA doesn’t support HLG so the brand is further away from universal HDR support than the venn diagram makes it seem. Brands like TCL and HiSense could be contenders but are US-focused and so far lack HLG support. [Yoeri Geutskens]
So it seems that a Universal HDR display is getting closer.

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post #76 of 158 Old 11-29-2017, 06:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Getting To Know Dolby Vision HDR: Part 1

https://mixinglight.com/color-tutorial/getting-know-dolby-vision-hdr-part-1/
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The way that I think about Dolby Vision is like a funnel. The HDR grade is the wide end of the funnel – high dynamic range (HDR), large color gamut, and possibly high resolution and frame rate.
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The Dolby Vision process analyzes the HDR grade (in the grading software) and the Dolby Content Mapping Unit (CMU) takes the metadata produced by the analysis process (embedded over SDI) and in real-time creates a Standard Dynamic Range (SDR) version of the project (the smaller end of the funnel).

Unlike HDR10 (another HDR standard) where mapping from HDR to SDR is passive and applied over the entirety of the program, Dolby Vision allows for frame by frame or shot by shot SDR mapping. Meaning that the colorist, DP and director can provide creative input to how the SDR version of the project is derived by use of ‘trim’controls within the grading software while targeting a chosen SDR display spec (usually 100-nit gamma 2.4).

Trims can happen on a frame by frame or shot by shot basis so that that the SDR version of the project matches as closely as possible to the original intent of the HDR grade.

I know this is going to sound funny, but by starting with the HDR grade and deriving an SDR grade from that through the Dolby Vision process, I feel like I’m getting better SDR grades than I would have if I did the SDR version alone.

What’s more? Instead of having to do two separate grades, the trim process on most projects usually only adds a few hours of time, which is way more efficient than two separate grades.

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post #77 of 158 Old 12-11-2017, 10:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Netflix open to supporting HDR10+ standard in the future

http://www.techradar.com/news/netflix-open-to-supporting-hdr10-standard-in-the-future
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"We do already support HDR10, not the HDR10+ variant, there’s a possibility we’ll support that in the future but it’s not something that’s on our roadmap at the moment," he said, when asked whether the company was open to these other formats…"Our aim is to not necesserily dictate your choice as a consumer but rather embrace it, and whichever technology you choose to buy we want to give you the best picture we can on that," Smith concluded.

The more content delivered in dynamic metadata formats, the more likely that a manufacturer will support all those formats. This would give them a completive advantage.

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post #78 of 158 Old 12-14-2017, 10:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Amazon Video Has Made All Of Its HDR Shows Available In HDR10+

https://www.forbes.com/sites/johnarc.../#6badc6a555eb
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Plus, so Samsung’s argument goes, HDR10+ leaves more room than Dolby Vision for TV manufacturers to optimize the image for each specific TV screen.

My personal opinion is this is the main reason Samsung developed HDR10+, to differentiate their TVs. Dolby has stated that they strive for the most accurate picture. There are people who do not like a calibrated picture. Many people like the Vivid modes etc. Our eyes are drawn to the most colorful displays in stores. With HDR10+ Samsung and Panasonic can tune the picture to set their displays apart from the other manufactures. Of course Sony is somewhat like this, but they went with Dolby Vision.

Now Dolby Vison does have 12 bit, 4.2.2 and ICtCp going for it in future displays to provide even a better picture.


Spoiler!
Not for me, but somewhat serious.

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post #79 of 158 Old 12-23-2017, 07:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Tech Talk: HDR10+ Rivals Dolby Vision But That May Not Matter

https://www.androidheadlines.com/2017/12/tech-talk-hdr10-rivals-dolby-vision-but-that-may-not-matter.html
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Going into 2018, the HDR competition is definitely much fiercer (since it finally exists) but Dolby Vision’s position is now stronger than ever as the standard isn’t just the go-to HDR solution for Hollywood – it’s the only solution. On the other hand, Samsung is largely counting on the billions of dollars Amazon is pouring into original production to promote HDR10+ but with 20th Century Fox being its only truly established content partner (who also co-developed the standard with Panasonic), its chances of making the world’s largest filmmaking industry embrace its technology remain questionable.
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While Samsung has an advantagein terms of accessibility given how HDR10+ is free for device manufacturers and content creators, that doesn’t mean much when its target audience are Hollywood heavyweights. Dolby’s status in the industry coupled with nearly limitless sresources of its clients means that Samsung must do much better than just say“it’s free” when trying to convince filmmakers to adopt HDR10+, not to mentionthat the South Korean firm is also at a disadvantage in terms of support it can offer. To have any hopes of seriously challenging for HDR dominance, Samsung needs to deliver a convincingly superior solution and while HDR10+ can certainly go toe-to-toe with Dolby Vision in most aspects, it doesn’t clearly surpass it in any. In fact, even though HDR10+ is a massive upgrade over its predecessor, it’s still a 10-bit standard, meaning its colors can’t be more accurate than the ones delivered by Dolby’s 12-bit solution even in theory.


The color depth argumentisn’t as important right now since no consumer-ready television set is capable of outputting 12-bit colors but that technology is already close to commercialization and it shouldn’t be long until you’ll be able to get it in your living room, after which Dolby Vision is likely to clearly surpass HDR10+ in terms of image quality. Dolby claims the standard does so even now as it downsamples processed 12-bit data to a 10-bit output in a manner that’s supposedly more accurate than native 10-bit computing, though you’d be hard-pressed to actually see that difference. However, once 12-bit TVs become acommercial reality, Dolby’s marketing will be able to drop such claims and let the image do the talking, and nothing it says will be good news for HDR10+.


Therefore, your futureTV choice probably won’t come down to whether to opt for a Dolby Vision or HDR10+ device but whether to pay extra for one that’s compatible with both technologies or settle for just Samsung‘s standard.
The answer is YES, but I don't believe you will have to pay more than a few dollars.

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post #80 of 158 Old 01-02-2018, 07:00 PM
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Sorry, the last pinnacle of 3D tech on my LG G6 means I selfishly only care about Dolby Vision since that is what it supports. I wouldn't touch Samsung with anyone's 10 foot pole. Panasonic's display division has to have one foot in the grave by now.
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post #81 of 158 Old 01-06-2018, 02:16 AM
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post #82 of 158 Old 01-07-2018, 03:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Thumbs up Seems that Panasonic has been following this thread

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Originally Posted by StayingSalty View Post
The most direct and first impact will be on players because their numbers are so small compared to displays.


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Originally Posted by DanBa View Post
Astep in the right direction:
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Panasonic's flagship 2018 Ultra HD Blu-ray player supports Dolby Vision, HDR10+ and obviously HDR10.

https://www.flatpanelshd.com/news.php?subaction=showfull&id=1515296844
Samsung/Panasonic display/player = 4 devices.
Panasonic player supporting Dolby Vision = one fourth of that total

Good news for us who strive for the best picture we can afford.
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post #83 of 158 Old 01-07-2018, 03:38 PM
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Quote:
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https://www.forbes.com/sites/johnarc.../#5f96a31914da


“Part of this situation holds true with HDR10+, of course. Like Dolby Vision, the extra scene by scene data introduced by HDR10+ sits on top of an HDR10 core that people will still be able to watch if their TV or 4K Blu-ray player doesn’t support HDR10+. That, though, is where the similarities between the Dolby Vision/HDR10 and Dolby Vision/HDR10+ situations end, leaving us staring at four key reasons why a new format war really is now underway.

1 - The expansion at IFA of HDR10+ beyond just being ‘a Samsung thing’ instantly shifts the HDR goalposts to a place where I believe the HDR10 industry standard will soon no longer be seen as adequate.
Following the IFA announcements, pretty much every hardware and film studio has now professed support for one dynamic metadata HDR format or the other, tacitly recognizing - and, crucially, demonstrating - the dynamic technology’s ability to deliver a better picture performance than standard HDR10. And once you’ve let that cat out of the bag on an industry-wide scale, there’s no putting it back.

As a result of all these issues, consumers will quickly start to expect ‘dynamic metadata’ HDR as standard. And once they do, the old ‘HDR10 is good enough, Dolby Vision is just a luxury extra’ argument for there being no format war evaporates. Instead people will be faced with a stark choice between two incompatible dynamic HDR formats.

2 - At the time of writing it appears that content creators will only back either Dolby Vision or HDR10+, not both.

Certainly Fox’s willingness to join an actual HDR10+ Alliance makes it look extremely unlikely that it will also support Dolby Vision (even though it has delivered films in the Dolby Cinema format for commercial theaters). Especially as Fox implied at an HDR10+ meeting at IFA that not wanting to pay Dolby its Dolby Vision licensing fee was at least one factor in its decision to support the royalty-free HDR10+ format.

It seems unlikely, too, that any film studio would want to invest the time and, therefore, money in mastering the same film title in two separate dynamic metadata HDR formats.

If Fox does indeed support HDR10+ only when most other studios have previously declared themselves for Dolby Vision, then we will find ourselves in a situation where some films are only available in the HDR10+ dynamic metadata format while others are only available - for now, anyway - in the Dolby Vision dynamic metadata format. And the moment you’ve got films that can only be bought in one video format or another, not both, then you’re firmly into format war territory.

3 - When it comes to 4K Blu-ray, even if a studio wanted to take a neutral stance with regard to dynamic metadata HDR and offer both Dolby Vision and HDR10+, it will likely struggle to actually fit both formats onto a single disc. This was confirmed to me by industry HDR consultant Florian Friedrich at IFA. This issue isn’t being helped by apparent ongoing issues with effectively and efficiently manufacturing ultra high capacity 100GB ‘triple layer’ 4K Blu-ray discs.

4 - If the films studios aren’t likely to make the same movies available in both HDR10+ and Dolby Vision, then maybe the hardware makers can provide universal playback on their TVs and 4K Blu-ray players?
Both those formats still died a slow death, unfortunately - partly because, I suspect, even a whiff of a format war, however short-lived, can decimate a technology’s chances. But yep, if all the TVs and 4K Blu-ray players at this January’s CES offer support for both Dolby Vision and HDR10+, then great; the AV industry will at least have done its best to assuage consumer concerns.
Sadly, though, I don’t see this happening. It’s possible one or two TV brands might take a universal HDR playback approach, but it seems extremely unlikely that every brand will be so open minded.
For starters, Samsung has essentially created the royalty-free HDR10+ platform in direct opposition to Dolby Vision, so that its own AV products and those of other similarly minded brands can provide dynamic metadata HDR support without having to pay Dolby for the privilege. Going to such lengths to avoid paying Dolby a buck makes it almost inconceivable that Samsung will add Dolby Vision support to its TVs and 4K Blu-ray players any time soon.

In other words, the resistance of two of the TV world’s biggest brands to Dolby Vision isn’t purely financial; it seems to be philosophical as well.

Of course, it’s always possible that Panasonic and Samsung will do a U-turn and add Dolby Vision in future TV hardware generations if it looks like not supporting Dolby’s format is really hitting their sales. But I think they’ll give themselves a pretty long run at the HDR10+ only route before making such a pluralistic move.

The issue of firmware updates is also an element in the new HDR format war. Florian Friedrich and Samsung both confirmed that while it’s technically possible to firmware update some current TVs for HDR10+, only a few models will have enough ‘brain power’ to handle it. For instance, while all of Samsung’s 2017 and most if not all of its 2016 HDR TVs will support HDR10+, the HDR10+ update can only be applied to Panasonic’s ‘4K Pro’ models - essentially its EX750 LCD TVs and its EZ950 and EZ1000 OLEDs. And nobody has a clue yet about whether HDR10+ can be added to other TV brands via firmware.”

Thus this poll. Also interesting about the difficulties of Dolby Vision and HDR10+ being on the same disk.
My presumption is that whatever we get from TV manufacturers (HD10/10+) will be half-baked BS for much longer than necessary. I trust Dolby to do it better. Therefore, I'll pay a few $ extra for the better format. I won't be buying a Sammy or Panny TV.
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post #84 of 158 Old 01-11-2018, 12:03 AM - Thread Starter
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Thumbs up List of UHDs that contain HDR10+ at Blu-ray.com

List of UHDs that contain HDR10+


A very informative and lively thread.
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post #85 of 158 Old 01-11-2018, 09:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Pixelogic brings Dolby Vision Blu-ray authoring to London

https://www.broadcastnow.co.uk/tech/pixelogic-brings-dolby-vision-blu-ray-authoring-to-london/5125482.article
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Explaining its move to bring Dolby Vision 4K UHD Blu-ray authoring to London, Holger Hendel, SVP and managing director of EMEA for Pixelogic said: “Since the launch of our Dolby Vision capabilities last year, we have received increasing interest from our European customers to produce Dolby Vision products.”
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“We have met that demand by adding those capabilities to our London facility so that we can provide the appropriate level of service and attention they require and deserve.”
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post #86 of 158 Old 01-18-2018, 09:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Thumbs up Is this the future?

Latency = lag, the bane of gamers


It is right there infront of us guys and gals.


1. Why would Dolby risk upsetting it’s partners by letting Sony use a "low latency" Dolby Vision for HDMI. Yes it’s nice to get their “Name” and the royalties for their displays and 4k Blu-ray players. But is it worth the risk for the hardship (money to update their equipment) this will impose on their partners? Also the anger and bad press they will initially get. I don’t think so. But what if those players are sold in the millions and millions. You say it would take many, many, many years for Sony to sell that many players. But what if we change to name from 4k standalone player, to Dolby Vision supported gaming console. Bingo, you bet.


2. Now this does not benefit Oppo or any other 4k standalone player maker at first glance. But most of the other player makers also make displays. They would not want to cede the display market to Sony when the gamers choose a display to match with their brand new console. So it is not too difficult for them to buy into the new DoVi standard for HDMI.


3. With this support the game developers will make games for these consoles. Win (money) for Dolby.


4. Oppo and the streaming dudes will not want to cede Sony display support to other manufactures so they will benefit also.


So when Sony releases a Dolby Vision capable console it will put tremendous pressure on Samsung.

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post #87 of 158 Old 01-19-2018, 09:52 AM
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Originally Posted by StayingSalty View Post
So when Sony releases a Dolby Vision capable console it will put tremendous pressure on Samsung.
If they do release a Dolby Vision console, it better include a UHD drive.

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post #88 of 158 Old 01-30-2018, 10:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Thumbs up BDA Talks 4K Ultra HD Blu-ray Progress (HDR10+) at CES 2018

http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/bda-ces-201801304539.htm
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It will beinteresting to see how this ultimately plays out – we’d ideally end up with afuture situation where support for all major HDR systems is a standard“check-box” feature in displays and player…
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post #89 of 158 Old 02-01-2018, 01:09 AM
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Not good if you want to enjoy both a legacy format (3D) and dynamic HDR on the same set.
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post #90 of 158 Old 02-13-2018, 10:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Smile What Is Dolby Vision? (And How to Get It)

https://www.tomsguide.com/us/what-is-dolby-vision-hdr,review-5138.html
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Dolby Vision israpidly becoming the de facto HDR standard for 4K TVs.

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