Will Samsung and Panasonic succumb to the Dark Side - Page 6 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
View Poll Results: Which HDR Formats will be supported by your next equipment purchase
HDR10 only 3 1.95%
HDR10/HDR10+ 23 14.94%
HDR10/Dolby Vision 61 39.61%
HDR10/HDR10+/Dolby Vision 67 43.51%
Voters: 154. You may not vote on this poll

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post #151 of 158 Old 04-04-2019, 08:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Universal to release movies in HDR10+ format on UHD Blu-ray & online

https://www.flatpanelshd.com/news.ph...&id=1554370703

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At this point, it is hard to say whether HDR10+ is building momentum or actually falling apart. Dolby has a substantial head start with more than 420 Dolby Vision movies in circulation.




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post #152 of 158 Old 04-21-2019, 11:12 AM
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I’m looking at the Q80 as a burn-in-free and static-dimming-free wide viewing angle alternative to the C8 for my living room, and was ready to buy, until I noticed the lack of Dolby Vision.

I don’t currently have any HDR material aside from my Roku Ultra. I bought an inexpensive 2017? Sony 4K BluRay player about a year or more ago for 50% off at $150. My TX-NR929 receiver is unlikely to support HDR well. This market is largely beyond my means but if I’m looking at $5000 for a new TV that performs well in a living room and works as a computer monitor too I’d like to be future-proofed or at least understand my compromises.

I don’t understand the issue of HDR support and my ignorance is frustrating my shopping. I’m hoping for clarity so I can decide whether the excellent picture with wide viewing angle that I saw in the show room is worth the investment or if I should look elsewhere. I’m having trouble imagining Samsung hanging on the fringes and wondering if there’s some logic to their madness that hasn’t been fleshed out that has little to do with standards?

The various specs and the confusing measurements of peak, average, 50% etc. luminance on RTINGS for the recently reviewed Q90 indicate to me that the power dissipation of limited efficiency LED backlights is the primary driver behind my confusion and possibly one reason Samsung won’t sign on to DV that assumes luminance capability that is unlikely to find its way into the homes of most consumers any time soon where I’m struggling to afford 1/10th the max specified luminance of DV.

From looking at the top and bottom of this thread I’m understanding that HDR10/10+ specs 10 bits and 4000 nits max luminance but the Q80 maxes out near 1000 nits. DV specs 12 bits and 10,000 nits for studio mastering with nearly the full dynamic range and resolution of human vision?

My understanding is that HDR10+ and Dolby Vision include metadata related to the mastering display so that the consumer TV can best approximate the appearance of the mastering display, within the limits of the consumer TV, on a frame-by-frame or scene-by-scene basis? Haven’t read a spec but this seems to me like a kluge workaround for a panel that is too dim. If the panel is too dim anyway does it really matter that much how well it kluges its output?

So when I play a BluRay with Dolby Vision, the Q80 will only render the mandatory HDR10 track with no metadata meaning the TV either saturates at 1000 nits and crushes the highlights, or it adds some nonlinear mapping based on a dynamically generated best guess?

Will I even notice the lack of Dolby vision on a TV with only 1000 nits?

What if I buy the Q900 instead? (Lol) Will its higher brightness mean that Dolby Vision is entirely unnecessary with commercially available programming?

Over-the-air is covered by HGL and compatible?

What happens with streaming? Does HDR also default to HDR10 or HGL if the TV doesn’t support the HDR10+ or DV standard chosen by the streaming provider?

I’m just wondering if this is another situation with DV similar to s-video where the marginal analog improvement of today’s hardware doesn’t buy anything for the average consumer despite the flexibility of the available bits for encoding, and Samsung is more focused on the practicality versus the compatibility? I can’t imagine that $3 per TV for the licensing is more important to them than the technical difficulty and cost of supporting the HDMI bandwidth, the nits, and the firmware/DSP/memory of DV? Or am I just underestimating the capacity of shareholder value to warp the market for no good technical reason?

Clarity, please. What’s the bottom line for someone like me on the decision whether the excellent picture of the Q80 is future-proofed enough that I won’t find myself regretting the lack of DV? Should I just get a C8 instead and put the money I saved (lol) into a laptop for use in the living room instead of making the TV double as a PC monitor?

Format wars. Ugh. Toxic to someone that overthinks and over-reaches.
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post #153 of 158 Old 04-22-2019, 08:27 PM - Thread Starter
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I don’t think there is a future proof solution yet…

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Originally Posted by CherylJosie View Post
….
Format wars. Ugh. Toxic to someone that overthinks and over-reaches.
Here are my overall thoughts.

First read thru this thread for a better understanding of HDR: Ultra HD Blu-ray (4K) Discs and High Dynamic Range (HDR) for Dummies

If you are going to use as a computer monitor, get a LCD.

If you will view a lot of HDR content, get the best that displays HDR10 (probably LG or Sony). They key is tone mapping of the display.

The one or two models you decide on, research reviews and also read the owners thread to see it meets your main priority features.

After all that perhaps buy a $600 or so display now, and kick the can down the road for a few more years.

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post #154 of 158 Old 04-22-2019, 11:39 PM
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Originally Posted by StayingSalty View Post
Here are my overall thoughts.

First read thru this thread for a better understanding of HDR: Ultra HD Blu-ray (4K) Discs and High Dynamic Range (HDR) for Dummies

If you are going to use as a computer monitor, get a LCD.

If you will view a lot of HDR content, get the best that displays HDR10 (probably LG or Sony). They key is tone mapping of the display.

The one or two models you decide on, research reviews and also read the owners thread to see it meets your main priority features.

After all that perhaps buy a $600 or so display now, and kick the can down the road for a few more years.

Thanks for that.


I'm thinking that all I really care about is a really bright TV with good glare rejection that can fake HDR convincingly and has a wide viewing angle. I don't want to have to re-orient the TV every time I go to the kitchen.


It would be nice if there were actual impressions of what HDR10 vs. the Dolby Vision version playback is like. Does it make that much difference on a TV with ~1000 peak nits, or is it fubar on LCD no matter how adept the decoding?


Something else is that the installer I have contacted for my antenna wiring buys through AVAD and Samsung chat is balking at giving me a thumbs-up on the reseller authorization for a TV. The installer is AV Pros in Mountain View. Any idea if this is how legitimate resellers of Samsung operate? I see AVAD mentioned on several forums. So far the wiring went OK. But when I tried to call Samsung customer service number given through chat 1-800-samsung, it won't progress through the menu on key presses. I'm sort of stumped here.
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post #155 of 158 Old 04-23-2019, 10:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CherylJosie View Post
Thanks for that.


I'm thinking that all I really care about is a really bright TV with good glare rejection that can fake HDR convincingly and has a wide viewing angle. I don't want to have to re-orient the TV every time I go to the kitchen.


It would be nice if there were actual impressions of what HDR10 vs. the Dolby Vision version playback is like. Does it make that much difference on a TV with ~1000 peak nits, or is it fubar on LCD no matter how adept the decoding?


Something else is that the installer I have contacted for my antenna wiring buys through AVAD and Samsung chat is balking at giving me a thumbs-up on the reseller authorization for a TV. The installer is AV Pros in Mountain View. Any idea if this is how legitimate resellers of Samsung operate? I see AVAD mentioned on several forums. So far the wiring went OK. But when I tried to call Samsung customer service number given through chat 1-800-samsung, it won't progress through the menu on key presses. I'm sort of stumped here.
The differences between DV and HDR10, is DV has less to no banding, posterization, and better color in some titles. The Full enhancement layer, I've just learned from Stacey Spears, has actual data from the master grade, that is missing from the HDR10 base layer. So you may see, brighter highlights and more detail within highlights, where HDR10 would clip.

In order to see a difference though for most, requires a side by side comparison.

HDR10+ currently from I understand, has only scene by scene functionality, frame by frame metadata is another area where DV edges out + along with being 12 bit.

HDR10+ information is limited right now, it is not clear right now, if tone mapping is handled by + or is display specific.

Another aspect of DV ICtCp color difference, a color model that Dolby co- developed for HDR, which is currently only on streamed content, at least until it adopted for UHDBD.

I can see the differences, I have a photographic memory. The DV stream of John Wick 2 had better highlight detail.

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post #156 of 158 Old 05-21-2019, 11:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Thumbs up 'Alita: Battle Angel' Bravely Takes On The HDR Format War

https://www.forbes.com/sites/johnarc.../#12ddf3d51623

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Second, Alita marks the very first 4K Blu-ray from 20th Century Fox that’s carried a Dolby Vision master. Previously 20th Century Fox releases have only supported either the industry standard HDR10 ‘static’ HDR format (which doesn’t provide TVs with scene by scene picture information) and, in the case of a handful of recent titles, HDR10+.
Now I think this is more Cameron’s call, than Disney, as they haven’t done Dolby Vision on disc recently. They do Dolby Vision on their Streaming content though, so it will be interesting to see if Fox starts doing Dolby Vision on their streaming content.

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post #157 of 158 Old 06-20-2019, 09:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Wink A few Samsung employees probably said…

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Originally Posted by JohnAV View Post
…"This can't be good"

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post #158 of 158 Old 09-07-2019, 03:40 PM
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This will probably take at least five or more years to play out.

I don’t believe that Samsung and Panasonic can prevail in their desire to avoid adapting Dolby Vison. I don’t believe that this a battle like HD DVD vs Blu-ray was (Winner take all).Even when Samsung and Panasonic at some point in the future add Dolby Vision, HDR10+ content will still be produced.

The HD DVD vs Blu-ray dust up was decided by the Big Boys/Powers That Be. I believe that we consumers will have a much bigger impact on the outcome of what the manufactures support for our HDR preferences for 4K Blu-rays and Streaming.I am not including Broadcasting because those choices will be made by the Powers That Be.

“So how come we consumers get to decide the HDR that Samsung and Panasonic supports” you ask? Excellent question.You might have noticed that I did not include Fox Studios in the original axis of evil.(Just kidding).Because we consumers have very little influence on Fox.They have exclusive product and no competition for that product.

Now Samsung and Panasonic are different. They have a lot of competition for their Displays and Players. So the other brands that consumers buy in sufficient quantity will impact their bottom line.Remember “Curved Screens” vs “Flat Screens” was decided by our buying choices. (at least in the US).The most direct and first impact will be on players because their numbers are so small compared to displays..Because HDR10+ is “Open Standard” it will be adopted on the Dolby Vision Players and Displays.I believe that LG has committed itself to supporting all major HDR formats.

I would think that most members would want to take advantage of the dynamic metadata that is on the disks we buy or movies we stream, but this poll will tell the tell.

After your vote please give a little comment on your vote.


Perhaps you are undecided at this time. Since there is no option for "Undecided", just state that in a post. Then once you've decided, cast your vote for your HDR choices.

There is no other way to put this , your poll is based on a big lie. Why because manufacturers all sleep in the same bed on HDR. Samsung won't adopt Dolby Vision because they don't have to and it won't hurt them one bit. Why is that you might ask.Well because Dolby Vision is based on 12 bit panel technology. Dolby say that in there own spec sheet. So until we get 12 bit panels quite frankly your not seeing Dolby Vision .What your seeing is HDR10+ ,so Samsung and Panasonic knowly this won't suffer one bit. Put 2 tvs side by side one with Dolby Vision and the other with a HDR10+ source. Watch what happens. Nothing , you won't notice difference. So why would Dolby push a technology that doesn't work .Money the almighty dollar. So this poll is moot and misleading.
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