HDR10+ at CES 2018 - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 47 Old 01-23-2018, 03:24 PM
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Vincent Teoh is saying he was told by Sony and LG that hdr10+ is algorithm based. This alone makes it inferior to Dolby Vision. LG says it's basically the same thing as their active hdr setting that converts static Metadata to dynamic Metadata.
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post #32 of 47 Old 01-23-2018, 03:57 PM
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Originally Posted by mtbdudex View Post
Blu-ray vs HDDVD ... hey there is still a forum here for that believe it or not
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/148-blu-ray-hd-dvd/
Of course we all know which "won", and why.
Some old timers even may remember the hot-hot debates in this very forum, and the time-out(s) given.

I actually still have my Toshiba HD-A30 HD DVD player hooked up and it works perfectly. I don't use it a lot but it's a cool piece to still have around. Does a pretty decent job of upscaling regular DVD's.
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post #33 of 47 Old 01-23-2018, 04:44 PM
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Originally Posted by ratm View Post
Scott,

Given the juggernaut that is Samsung as a whole and their reluctance for DV, do you see this developing into a VHS/BetaMax or Bluray/HDDVD sort of battle? If so, do you see other manufacturers (LG, Sony, Panasonic, etc.) allowing all formats in their products via firmware updates until a "standard" wins?
It's apples and oranges. Betamax/VHS and Blu-ray/HDDVD are physical media. The power is in the studios hands. Do they use Dolby Digital or DTS audio. Do they use Dolby Vision or HDR10+.

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post #34 of 47 Old 01-23-2018, 09:16 PM
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Scary thing is if they want to cut costs, they could go with a cheaper to produce but inferior format.

Having movies graded by hand as they do for DV has to cost more.
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post #35 of 47 Old 01-23-2018, 09:39 PM
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Still disappointed that Dolby Vision content whether streaming or UHD is still very few. And then don't get me started on my Sony A1E still waiting on firmware update of DV on HDMI.

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post #36 of 47 Old 01-24-2018, 12:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Scott Wilkinson View Post
Apparently not. As I wrote in the article, Samsung demonstrated sending HDR10+ over HDMI 2.0. They said it was only the "important data" and that HDMI 2.1 is required to send full HDR10+ metadata, but the partial metadata got through via HDMI 2.0.
I value Samsung demonstrations as pretty meaningless at this juncture.
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Originally Posted by EllisGJ View Post
From my consumer perspective, Dolby Vision took a big hit last week with the totally flubbed roll-out of the Dolby Vision firmware update for Sony TVs, including the A1E, ZD9 and many other models. What a mismanaged mess and what a disappointment. The update only supports apps running on the TVs, not HDMI or USB sources. Many Sony TV owners have waited up to a year for this update, only now to be in limbo.

I blame Dolby foremost for allowing this to happen. I'll think twice about buying a Sony TV again, too. In any event, I'm now far more interested in HDR10+ going forward.
Yea, but 2017 Samsung owners aren't exactly in a great position either. You'd be better off avoiding it altogether (as would everyone else buying TVs). As they say, money talks. Of course, this is a fantasy since only a small percentage of TV buyers gives a flying about any of this.
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post #37 of 47 Old 01-24-2018, 04:14 AM
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Originally Posted by edtorious View Post
Still disappointed that Dolby Vision content whether streaming or UHD is still very few. And then don't get me started on my Sony A1E still waiting on firmware update of DV on HDMI.
A list of Dolby Vision movies on iTunes:
https://www.flatpanelshd.com/news.ph...&id=1505495519

Universal audio/video receiver (Dolby Atmos, DTS:X, etc.) is achieved.
Universal HDR TV (HDR10, Dolby Vision, HEVC HLG HDR, VP9-HLG / VP9-PQ YouTube HDR, Dynamic HDR) is required.

Push for universal HDR TV!
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post #38 of 47 Old 01-24-2018, 06:07 AM
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Originally Posted by video_analysis View Post
...Of course, this is a fantasy since only a small percentage of TV buyers gives a flying about any of this.
Yes - however, I believe the small percentage you mention are the early adopters, who influence buying decisions for the majority - over time.

My thought is simply that Dolby has not done itself any favors by allowing the Sony firmware update fiasco to happen.
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post #39 of 47 Old 01-24-2018, 06:44 AM
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Originally Posted by EllisGJ View Post
Yes - however, I believe the small percentage you mention are the early adopters, who influence buying decisions for the majority - over time.

My thought is simply that Dolby has not done itself any favors by allowing the Sony firmware update fiasco to happen.
You can't put this "fiasco" on Dolby in any manner. Sony obviously knew that Oppo, Apple, LG, and Philips would need to put out a firmware update to support the profile Sony used.

It's not kick the bird out the nest so it can learn to fly. Sony obviously was informed of the incompatibility. They just failed to inform the waiting consumer of the current nature of their Dolby Vision support.

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post #40 of 47 Old 01-24-2018, 07:20 AM
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Originally Posted by DisplayCalNoob View Post
You can't put this "fiasco" on Dolby in any manner.
Respectfully disagree unless Sony proceeded as it did without Dolby's agreement or knowledge. IMHO, the roll-out of DV to Sony TVs was an important event for the standard.

PS: Just saw this - https://www.forbes.com/sites/johnarc.../#5caeb711498a.

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post #41 of 47 Old 01-24-2018, 11:00 AM
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Exclamation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Wilkinson View Post
Apparently not. As I wrote in the article, Samsung demonstrated sending HDR10+ over HDMI 2.0. They said it was only the "important data" and that HDMI 2.1 is required to send full HDR10+ metadata, but the partial metadata got through via HDMI 2.0.
What do you mean by "partial metadata"/"important data" vs "full metadata"? By reading your article I've the impression that bying in 2018 a TV which is said to be HDR10+ won't propose in fact the full HDR10+ experience as "partial metadata" would mean restrictions due to the use of HDMI 2.0b. As we won't have any TV (LCD or OLED) with HDMI 2.1 connectors in 2018, sounds like it will be necessary to wait one extra year for the 2019 models that will bring the real HDMI 2.1 sauce capable of proposing the full HDR10+ experience for what it has been designed for. The 24kb trick over HDMI 2.0b is the perfect example of how messy is the HDR situation right now. If you don't pay attention to details, too bad for you, say bye bye to full HDR10+ compatibility.

Conclusion: if you buy a 2018 TV you'll be hoodwinked with partial HDR10+ metadata. Given the price of an OLED TV for example, that's just unaceptable! We're tired of all these unfinished standards and formats wars. You really need to go very deep into specs to find the devil and avoid a bad purchase. A real shame.
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post #42 of 47 Old 01-24-2018, 05:23 PM
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Seems like this is DOA once HDMI 2.1 is out next year...

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post #43 of 47 Old 01-28-2018, 04:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Wilkinson View Post
Apparently not. As I wrote in the article, Samsung demonstrated sending HDR10+ over HDMI 2.0. They said it was only the "important data" and that HDMI 2.1 is required to send full HDR10+ metadata, but the partial metadata got through via HDMI 2.0.
Quote:
Originally Posted by video_analysis View Post
It may require HDMI 2.1 if you want to feed HDR10+ from another device.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mashie Saldana View Post
I can't imagine that is a requirement considering the 2018 Panasonic OLED's and UHD players will support HDR10+ it and they don't have HDMI 2.1.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomeo View Post
What do you mean by "partial metadata"/"important data" vs "full metadata"? By reading your article I've the impression that bying in 2018 a TV which is said to be HDR10+ won't propose in fact the full HDR10+ experience as "partial metadata" would mean restrictions due to the use of HDMI 2.0b. As we won't have any TV (LCD or OLED) with HDMI 2.1 connectors in 2018, sounds like it will be necessary to wait one extra year for the 2019 models that will bring the real HDMI 2.1 sauce capable of proposing the full HDR10+ experience for what it has been designed for. The 24kb trick over HDMI 2.0b is the perfect example of how messy is the HDR situation right now. If you don't pay attention to details, too bad for you, say bye bye to full HDR10+ compatibility.

Conclusion: if you buy a 2018 TV you'll be hoodwinked with partial HDR10+ metadata. Given the price of an OLED TV for example, that's just unaceptable! We're tired of all these unfinished standards and formats wars. You really need to go very deep into specs to find the devil and avoid a bad purchase. A real shame.
The whole HDR over HDMI situation is somewhat fluid isn't it?

We're in a situation where some of the HDMI improvements made as we move up the standards from HDMI 2.0a, to HDMI 2.0b, to HDMI 2.1 require hardware to support them (increased clock rates for example). However some of the improvements introduced to the standards are more to do with adding new signalling and don't necessarily require new hardware, and can thus be added via firmware to HDMI devices that only, on paper, supported older standards.

HLG was originally added to the HDMI 2.1 spec, yet lots of HDMI 2.0b HDR displays (and AVRs) have had HLG support added via a firmware update (and I believe it is now deemed an addendum to the HDMI 2.0b spec?)

It looks as if some of the dynamic metadata introduced with HDMI 2.1 is also being backported to HDMI 2.0b devices? AIUI the dynamic metadata support is how Sony are approaching DV, so rather than tunnelling dynamic metadata proprietarily (which survived HDMI 1.4b and HDMI 2.0a and b devices AIUI) the new Sony DV system sends it using the standardised dynamic metadata route (which HDR10+ also uses AIUI?) Or am I misunderstanding the Sony DV approach? (I think Sony have done this as it avoids having to implement the algorithms that extract the tunnelled metadata - which potentially required processing they didn't have available - either in CPU load or hardware?)

It does mean that the numbering scheme is NOT a good guide to knowing what your sources and displays actually support though... Having two totally different flavours of 'DV over HDMI' is going to get very boring very quickly...
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post #44 of 47 Old 01-28-2018, 07:48 PM
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Originally Posted by wco81 View Post
Scary thing is if they want to cut costs, they could go with a cheaper to produce but inferior format.

Having movies graded by hand as they do for DV has to cost more.
HDR10 starts with a full on P3 D65 grading session and those frames are rendered out into 16bit tiff files where p3 is contained in a 2020 wrapper. Where the idea that HDR10 doesn?t require a mastering pass cane from I would like to know.

Most HDR10 content is graded on the Sony x300 mastering OLED at 1000 nit peak brightness. The current release titles all have a colorist and talent present.

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post #45 of 47 Old 01-29-2018, 03:55 AM
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Originally Posted by jbilgihan View Post
HDR10 starts with a full on P3 D65 grading session and those frames are rendered out into 16bit tiff files where p3 is contained in a 2020 wrapper. Where the idea that HDR10 doesn?t require a mastering pass cane from I would like to know.
I think there is a difference in terminology here.

Mastering is being used here to describe a format specific pass to master for that specific format, not the post production grade done in the main online (where grading decisions are taken for all releases).

As HDR10 only carries static metadata for a specific movie or show - this metadata can be captured automatically at the end of the grading process. This metadata doesn't require an additional manual mastering process on a scene-by-scene basis to capture?

AIUI some Dolby Vision content has a separate 'Delivery for DV' dynamic metadata pass where scene-by-scene metadata is evaluated and modified specifically for deliveries to the DV platform if the colourist isn't happy?

The question about HDR10+ was whether this additional manual process is being used/is possible for dynamic HDR10+ metadata.

Last edited by sneals2000; 01-29-2018 at 04:01 AM.
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post #46 of 47 Old 01-31-2018, 11:25 AM
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Just read through this thread.....HDR, HDR10+, Dolby Vision, HLG, 2.0, 2.1, etc, etc.

How is the everyday consumer going to know how to sort through all that? And is HDR10+ or Dolby Vision truly an eye-opening upgrade to the HDR we have now? Except in a frame here or there, no, it's not.

I've got a great setup. The best move is just to hunker down, enjoy my theater room, and let this sort itself out into whatever form it takes over the next several years.

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post #47 of 47 Old 02-02-2018, 10:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Utopianemo View Post
While I went out of my way to install a DV-compatible pipeline, it was perhaps premature. I have yet to read a Ralph Potts review (or any other) that indicates there's a significant difference between DV versus even standard HDR10 on a UHD disc. So I'm all fine with HDR10+, but I'm not holding my breath that it will be much different than what we have available now.
Lots of issues in determining the impact of course given unknowns about mastering, how each set handles tone mapping and the fact that Ralph (to my knowledge) isn't watching it side by side. But it isn't about what is 'significant' as that is subjective, with many saying that UHD isn't significant improvement over BR so there is no point. For those of us who want the best available image (which should be the vast majority of folks on AVS) 'significant' isn't as important as whether there is an improvement or not. And for DV, even without native 12 bit displays yet, it is better than HDR10. No idea how much impact the 12bit aspect of DV will help over HDR10+ but I am certainly disappointed that + omitted it as we wouldn't be concerned about non-optimal HDR choice when we see a title with + had they done so.
Here is a nice comparison from HDTV test discussing a few discs on one type of set.
Blu-ray
AppleTV
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