First IMAX Enhanced 4K Blu-rays Announced Featuring HDR10+ - Page 6 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #151 of 175 Old 12-13-2018, 12:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by puddy77 View Post
I assume whatever Samsung UBD player you are using is HDR10+ capable? Is there a way to toggle it to HDR10 like other players can do with Dolby Vision? If not, could you compare with an HDR10 only UBD player on the Q8FN?

If not, comparison isn't high on my priority list. I'm more interested in seeing proof of HDR10+ on the display. So far as Amazon is concerned, I've not seen any proof in any display designation saying the Samsung displays are actually using HDR10+. So it would be nice to see if the discs finally provide some sort of proof.
I do have both a player and TV that do HDR10+. I'll run the disc and see what the info box says. the player is not currently connected to this TV so I need to pull some cables etc. to do that but I will.
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post #152 of 175 Old 12-13-2018, 01:35 PM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
I do have both a player and TV that do HDR10+. I'll run the disc and see what the info box says. the player is not currently connected to this TV so I need to pull some cables etc. to do that but I will.
Do you know if any receiver brands announced hdr10+ support for pass through?



Also, my blue planet Imax disc came today, WILL also test later.
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post #153 of 175 Old 12-13-2018, 05:55 PM
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Hdr10+ confirmed via Player info, but weirdly it's converting to sdr for some reason. This is the 1st time I've hooked the Panny directly to the tv.

When I had the Panny plugged through my Oppo, the info only showed HDR10 and hdr was working, hooked directly to the tv now and hdr10+ tag is there but it's being converted to SDR. I haven't seen an option to choose 4k sdr or 4k hdr like some of these Imax disc's option to you.

For some reason, the Panny is downconverting everything to Sdr when hooked up directly to my tv. No idea what's going on there. (including the built in apps).

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post #154 of 175 Old 12-13-2018, 09:25 PM
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So we can conclude that when hooked up directly to an hdr10+ tv, the Panasonic will show hdr10+ in the header info whether it gets down converted or not. When it's not hooked up to an hdr10+ tv/device, it shows regular hdr10.
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post #155 of 175 Old 12-14-2018, 12:06 AM
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Confirmed the 2016 KS9800 is not hdr10+ compatible

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MASTER LIST OF HDR CONTENT THREAD HERE, UPDATED OFTEN
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post #156 of 175 Old 12-14-2018, 07:25 AM
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^ looks like the similar growing pains that early DV adopters suffered will repeat, it's kind of expected...thanks for the update.

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post #157 of 175 Old 12-14-2018, 09:10 AM
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Hdr10+ Labels in full force on upcoming Fox releases

75Q9FN* Panny UB824 fed into Oppo203*Denon X4200 * S9+*
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post #158 of 175 Old 12-19-2018, 05:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BattleAxeVR View Post
They could stuff two frames into one by encoding UHD Blurays as over-unders, without any change to the spec whatsoever.

3840 x 2160 / 2 = 3840 x 1080 for left eye, 3840 x 1080 for right eye, and match exactly the interlaced passive 3D of recent OLEDs. This would work at 24 and 60 fps, equally well.
This could work. No need for a new standard, but it would be 3D only. Not compatible with non-3D displays.

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Originally Posted by BattleAxeVR View Post
Another thing to mention is that in 3D Blurays there is a black gap between the eyes so there is no encoding "bleed" between the eyes. But HEVC can encode film to other resolutions than 3840 x 2160, but I'm not sure if UHD Blurays allow arbitrary resolutions of just strictly 2160p. I suspect so. Still, 3D is possible and over-under is a standard supported 3D mode on every TV and projector.
Not true. The black gap is only there in the HDMI transmission, not on the blu ray itself. It works with a substream just like Dolby Vision.
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post #159 of 175 Old 12-19-2018, 10:02 AM
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Originally Posted by ray0414 View Post
Do you know if any receiver brands announced hdr10+ support for pass through?



Also, my blue planet Imax disc came today, WILL also test later.
Appears you asked regarding the receiver before your HDR10+ disc's came in, now that you have them can you confirm if your receiver does or does not pass HDR10+?
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post #160 of 175 Old 12-29-2018, 06:14 AM
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Originally Posted by plasma_fan View Post
Appears you asked regarding the receiver before your HDR10+ disc's came in, now that you have them can you confirm if your receiver does or does not pass HDR10+?
I'd be very much interested in this as well! Denon e.g. said that HDR10+ passthrough could maybe work when I asked, then they went to not being sure whether passthrough would be possible and now they say "they believe" HDMI 2.1 is needed. That doesn't sound like they actually know... This format looks pretty much dead in the water to me. Too late and not compatible enough.
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post #161 of 175 Old 12-29-2018, 07:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Wuschel93 View Post
I'd be very much interested in this as well! Denon e.g. said that HDR10+ passthrough could maybe work when I asked, then they went to not being sure whether passthrough would be possible and now they say "they believe" HDMI 2.1 is needed. That doesn't sound like they actually know... This format looks pretty much dead in the water to me. Too late and not compatible enough.
Well since they won't have the royalty payments that DV has, it has the potential to be embraced. And it looks like that has started to heppen.

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post #162 of 175 Old 12-30-2018, 09:21 AM
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Originally Posted by aaronwt View Post
Well since they won't have the royalty payments that DV has, it has the potential to be embraced. And it looks like that has started to heppen.

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With HDMI 2.1 still far off when it comes to actual hardware and platforms like Amazon Prime now offering both DV and HDR10+, I doubt that it will take off properly (although I would really appreciate a royalty free and open source-friendly dynamic HDR format!). The introduction of 4K and especially HDR has been a total f-up and HDR10+ just doesn't make things any better at this point.


But as this is now quite OT: Does anyone have a different HDMI 2.0b AVR that he/she could test HDR10+ passthrough with?
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post #163 of 175 Old 01-09-2019, 10:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Wuschel93 View Post
With HDMI 2.1 still far off when it comes to actual hardware and platforms like Amazon Prime now offering both DV and HDR10+, I doubt that it will take off properly (although I would really appreciate a royalty free and open source-friendly dynamic HDR format!). The introduction of 4K and especially HDR has been a total f-up and HDR10+ just doesn't make things any better at this point.


But as this is now quite OT: Does anyone have a different HDMI 2.0b AVR that he/she could test HDR10+ passthrough with?
HDR10+ passes through my Anthem MRX 1120 with no issues.
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post #164 of 175 Old 01-09-2019, 03:20 PM
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Originally Posted by BattleAxeVR View Post
They could stuff two frames into one by encoding UHD Blurays as over-unders, without any change to the spec whatsoever.

3840 x 2160 / 2 = 3840 x 1080 for left eye, 3840 x 1080 for right eye, and match exactly the interlaced passive 3D of recent OLEDs. This would work at 24 and 60 fps, equally well.

No change needed. They could even do anamorphic encoding by setting the aspect ratio flag to 21:9 somehow, and in Scope movies stuff more vertical resolution in there (by not encoding black bars but stretching the source material), so it would be closer to 4K per eye. I don't expect this last part to happen automatically, except maybe with Java. But I'm not sure if UHD Blurays still support Java.

Another thing to mention is that in 3D Blurays there is a black gap between the eyes so there is no encoding "bleed" between the eyes. But HEVC can encode film to other resolutions than 3840 x 2160, but I'm not sure if UHD Blurays allow arbitrary resolutions of just strictly 2160p. I suspect so. Still, 3D is possible and over-under is a standard supported 3D mode on every TV and projector.
The problem is compatibility.

I have encoded 4K filmed material and used 3840x2160 output which is like you said 3840x1080 per eye. We should also note that this is half 4K per eye but still 4K resolution and double resolution to each eye over that of 1080p 3D but not full 4K3D like what a frame packing source should be which is 2x 3840x2160p images. This would be like passive 1080p sets that can only display 540p, same concept. Overall, though the image quality is really fantastic. I don't bother burning to UHD discs, there is a way now but with the cost of discs and limited space it's easier to keep things digital.

But again, it would only work on some 4K 3D displays like LG's. I don't know about other displays, possibly some active Samsung models which might work in either top/bottom or side by side. But if you use t/b then the image is stored in that format and you can't switch it like you can with frame packing. It will not work at all on 4K projectors with 3D nor any existing 1080p 3D projectors which the later would be understandable since they're not UHD capable anyway. But the point is, the format is not a universal 3D format like frame packing and therefore won't be accepted by all 4K equipment that is 3D capable. It will work for sure on LG passive 4K TV's but that's all I can say for sure.

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According to this article, Imax Enhanced titles include Venom, Spiderman Homecoming, and Jumanji: Into the Jungle.


https://www.rapidtvnews.com/20190108...mpression=true
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post #166 of 175 Old 01-10-2019, 11:23 AM
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Originally Posted by ray0414 View Post
According to this article, Imax Enhanced titles include Venom, Spiderman Homecoming, and Jumanji: Into the Jungle.


https://www.rapidtvnews.com/20190108...mpression=true
Crap!! Not in the US thhough

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IMAX Enhanced certified product content includes a selection of Sony Pictures Entertainment worldwide box office hits such as VENOM, Spider-Man: Homecoming and Jumanji: Welcome to the Jungle will be available in Europe on select Bravia TVs via the RakutenTV streaming service later this year. At launch, the IMAX Enhanced programme will be available in five countries in Europe, namely the UK, Spain, Germany, France and Italy.

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post #167 of 175 Old 01-10-2019, 11:39 PM
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Originally Posted by mbmapit44 View Post
HDR10+ passes through my Anthem MRX 1120 with no issues.

That's very interesting! It's officially only HDMI 2.0a, so shouldn't be different by design at least than other HDMI 2.0 passthrough devices.
Woud be interesting to know from more people here. Does anyone happen to have a Denon from the x300 series?
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post #168 of 175 Old 01-25-2019, 12:14 AM
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What’s the latest on this...is anyone actually getting HDR10+ from their player to their tv? And, what about AVR pass through via HDMI 2.0a and 2.0b?

Appreciate the feedback!

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post #169 of 175 Old 01-25-2019, 09:36 AM
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I realise this is perhaps a better place for this question. Anyone?
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Has there been any technical evaluation of just how much dynamic metadata there is in these initial HDR10+ releases? They could be HDR10+ in name only for all I know.
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post #170 of 175 Old 02-06-2019, 03:43 AM
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What’s the latest on this...is anyone actually getting HDR10+ from their player to their tv? And, what about AVR pass through via HDMI 2.0a and 2.0b?

Appreciate the feedback!

Also waiting for feedback especially on the second question here... Only one person seems to have tested this yet. Also, would be great to get some clear statements from AVR manufacturers. Denon e.g. is just stating that it may not be possible with HDMI 2.0 from what they know so far. That doesn't sound very sure to me.
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post #171 of 175 Old 03-05-2019, 06:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Wuschel93 View Post
Also waiting for feedback especially on the second question here... Only one person seems to have tested this yet. Also, would be great to get some clear statements from AVR manufacturers. Denon e.g. is just stating that it may not be possible with HDMI 2.0 from what they know so far. That doesn't sound very sure to me.
Not at all. Same questions elsewhere. Brief blasts of hype in October and January produced scratching heads and not much more. "Who's on first?"

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post #172 of 175 Old 03-08-2019, 08:21 AM
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IMAX versions of movies are shown in IMAX theatres for a couple of weeks and then end up sitting on the shelf forever. The IMAX Enhanced program is simply a way to bring those versions to home video. Millions of people have already seen the IMAX version theatrically, so it's not like this is some unseen version.

Sometimes the IMAX version has the same 2.35 aspect ratio as the non-IMAX counterpart (Transformers), sometimes the IMAX version is full screen (Blade Runner 2049), sometimes the IMAX version ahs variable/changing aspect ratio (Dark Knight). IMAX Enhanced doesn't mean the movie will have a fixed 16x9 aspect ratio. Also, sometimes the IMAX version has a different running time and different edit.

Their digital noise reduction was demonstrated at CEDIA and did its job effectively (reduced noise without sacrificing fine details). The high centre channel is built into IMAX soundtracks. Don't know why you're disparaging it; what would you gain by eliminating it? How did you arrived at the conclusion that it is "barely perceptible" without hearing any IMAX Enhanced titles? It is no more or less "perceptible" than any other channel.
This is an older post but it wont hurt to have it repeated.

I couldn’t agree more. I have a 110” front projection setup and that screen size in my small room is IMAX1.89 immersive. My scope is perfect at that width and I prefer to zoom down to roughly CIA for my flat movies and Academy movies. Regular TV I watch roughly as if it was CIH inside the scope image size. That’s just what works for me.

I’m very excited about being able to see the non-cropped version of the movies that were made to be shown in both IMAX1.89 theaters and scope theaters. Movies like Sully are a great example of how the techniques of filming two ARs of the same movie will be done in the future.

I’m not as interested that much in the audio aspect of the IMAX Enhanced movie although I’m not opposed to it. It is not like I am being forced to change my setup to play it, and I wont likely make any switch to IMAX approved equipment for a long time.

The greater immersive area in the image is what I want most and it has always seemed strange to me if a movie is one that expands like Dunkirk the studios have no problem putting the IMAX1.89 framing on the disc. Then if the movie had two versions a scope and IMAX1.89, we could only get the scope version on BD or UHD BD. The really strange part is years ago I purchased almost the entire IMAX collection (nature, history, science) the 45 minute movies on DVD and in the 1.43:1 original AR. They were not UHD or IMAX Enhanced but nonetheless they were fun to show super immersive with my XGA projector.

The one exception to the rule was Avatar up to this point. James Cameron viewed both versions and liked the open IMAX1.89 version as he said it made the flying seem more real. That’s exactly the point of IMAX1.89 it is to expand the vertical immersion filling more of our FOV in that direction. The material up there of course isn’t critical we look at it just like what is off to the sides in most scope movies.

I personally if I had a wish list I could convey to the studios it would be full speed ahead with these IMAX Enhanced releases of these Hollywood movies on UHD BD. Most of them have already been thru the enhancement process all they have to do is release them to the home market. I would also ask them to put out the 1.89 or 1.77 version to regular old BD as I think there would be a huge demand for all the people not up to speed in 4k yet and the rental market also. I would also ask them to provide a selection key like they used to have with DVD that would let you pick scope or IMAX1.89 even with BD it would be simple code to add to black out the data in the expanded frame. This would be nice for those with CIH theaters. Most of these movies the scope is center cut a few do a tilt and cut method and I even think they could accommodate that.

Having a projector setup there is a lot I can do now with presentation. But when it comes down to it people with flat panel TVs will like it best filling their screens more fully without loosing any of the scope movie.

This is a total win, win and I don’t know why it is so slow in coming.

As a final word there is one exception to doing this and that is the director who says but I like the scope version better. He and the studio in that case have every right to select scope as the AR they want to go out for home use. When they do that it is also telling me they just pandered to IMAX in making a taller version and perpetuated the LieMAX idea. Shame on them if I went and paid 10 bucks more to see the worst of two presentations. If they don’t feel the added height helps the movie they should do what Nolan and others do and let the image go to scope. There is not one thing wrong with a scope movie or even a flat 1.85 presentation. They are different tools for different jobs. My copy of Dunkirk expands and I wish it expanded to 1.43:1 as that was clearly the best presentation. I understand why they didn’t do it on BD/UHD BD as they feared pillar bars and double bars on the scope parts. With variable zoom presentation it would have been wonderful to have though, but I’m very glad I at least got 1.77 of it.

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post #173 of 175 Old 03-08-2019, 08:27 AM
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Originally Posted by bud16415 View Post
This is an older post but it wont hurt to have it repeated.

I couldn’t agree more. I have a 110” front projection setup and that screen size in my small room is IMAX1.89 immersive. My scope is perfect at that width and I prefer to zoom down to roughly CIA for my flat movies and Academy movies. Regular TV I watch roughly as if it was CIH inside the scope image size. That’s just what works for me.

I’m very excited about being able to see the non-cropped version of the movies that were made to be shown in both IMAX1.89 theaters and scope theaters. Movies like Sully are a great example of how the techniques of filming two ARs of the same movie will be done in the future.

I’m not as interested that much in the audio aspect of the IMAX Enhanced movie although I’m not opposed to it. It is not like I am being forced to change my setup to play it, and I wont likely make any switch to IMAX approved equipment for a long time.

The greater immersive area in the image is what I want most and it has always seemed strange to me if a movie is one that expands like Dunkirk the studios have no problem putting the IMAX1.89 framing on the disc. Then if the movie had two versions a scope and IMAX1.89, we could only get the scope version on BD or UHD BD. The really strange part is years ago I purchased almost the entire IMAX collection (nature, history, science) the 45 minute movies on DVD and in the 1.43:1 original AR. They were not UHD or IMAX Enhanced but nonetheless they were fun to show super immersive with my XGA projector.

The one exception to the rule was Avatar up to this point. James Cameron viewed both versions and liked the open IMAX1.89 version as he said it made the flying seem more real. That’s exactly the point of IMAX1.89 it is to expand the vertical immersion filling more of our FOV in that direction. The material up there of course isn’t critical we look at it just like what is off to the sides in most scope movies.

I personally if I had a wish list I could convey to the studios it would be full speed ahead with these IMAX Enhanced releases of these Hollywood movies on UHD BD. Most of them have already been thru the enhancement process all they have to do is release them to the home market. I would also ask them to put out the 1.89 or 1.77 version to regular old BD as I think there would be a huge demand for all the people not up to speed in 4k yet and the rental market also. I would also ask them to provide a selection key like they used to have with DVD that would let you pick scope or IMAX1.89 even with BD it would be simple code to add to black out the data in the expanded frame. This would be nice for those with CIH theaters. Most of these movies the scope is center cut a few do a tilt and cut method and I even think they could accommodate that.

Having a projector setup there is a lot I can do now with presentation. But when it comes down to it people with flat panel TVs will like it best filling their screens more fully without loosing any of the scope movie.

This is a total win, win and I don’t know why it is so slow in coming.

As a final word there is one exception to doing this and that is the director who says but I like the scope version better. He and the studio in that case have every right to select scope as the AR they want to go out for home use. When they do that it is also telling me they just pandered to IMAX in making a taller version and perpetuated the LieMAX idea. Shame on them if I went and paid 10 bucks more to see the worst of two presentations. If they don’t feel the added height helps the movie they should do what Nolan and others do and let the image go to scope. There is not one thing wrong with a scope movie or even a flat 1.85 presentation. They are different tools for different jobs. My copy of Dunkirk expands and I wish it expanded to 1.43:1 as that was clearly the best presentation. I understand why they didn’t do it on BD/UHD BD as they feared pillar bars and double bars on the scope parts. With variable zoom presentation it would have been wonderful to have though, but I’m very glad I at least got 1.77 of it.

The problem is that not all IMAX formatted films are just "opened up." Some have been cropped as well.



In the past, "scope" movies were considered more immersive because humans see better in the horizontal plain than in the vertical. With the advent of squeezing more auditoriums into a smaller retail footprint, constant width screens became more the norm than constant height where scope films were properly presented as larger/wider than flat ratio films.

Listen up, studios! Dolby Atmos Lite™ print-outs must stop!!
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post #174 of 175 Old 03-08-2019, 10:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post
The problem is that not all IMAX formatted films are just "opened up." Some have been cropped as well.



In the past, "scope" movies were considered more immersive because humans see better in the horizontal plain than in the vertical. With the advent of squeezing more auditoriums into a smaller retail footprint, constant width screens became more the norm than constant height where scope films were properly presented as larger/wider than flat ratio films.
I don’t know of any cases where they cropped the width of a scope image in order to make an IMAX1.89 out of it. At least in recent history of IMAX1.89 age. That would be like pan and scan and I think even the CEO of IMAX is on record as saying nothing is going to be removed from any movie in order to IMAX Enhance it. They do and can run a scope movie thru their IMAX DMR process and not change their AR or cut anything out of the image. When they then show a movie that has been DMRed they show it more immersive than a SMPTE level would recommend. That to me might be controversial as it is saying the image quality alone warrants greater immersion not just the cinematography. It also could be true and if you go into a IMAX or IMAX1.89 theater you do have the option of sitting a few rows back if you find the image overly immersive.

Immersion is a personal choice as it has always been and in the past with run of the mill theaters showing run of the mill films I have limited my immersion do to quality. One of the main reasons I use a variable immersion method at home is still the same reason. Some of the quality I watch is not the best. Many 75 year old films are not good transfers to digital media but they are great movies. I simply sacrifice immersion to improve the visual quality.

As to your first statement you are 100% correct our FOV is wider than it is tall. We have evolved our vision over millions of years and we have brows and cheekbones and our eye muscles have adapted to wide vision. Side to side without moving our eyes we can see 180 degrees. With movement we can even see somewhat behind us. So technically speaking a screen could be a mile wide and be in our vision.

That being said none of that has to do with what IMAX has done in terms of framing an image. There is comfortable limits to our vision and the Air Force and NASA and numerous medical organizations have studied our FOV and our acuteness along with comfort. They have also studied our scanning patterns and how really small our acutest vision really is. Try looking at one letter in this text and without moving your eyes read the word 3 lines up. You can clearly see the whole page on your monitor without moving your head around you are also aware if someone walks up they are off to the side of you, but you have to look over to see them. IMAX is actually working around real science with its AR and producing a FOV closer to real life where we have equal peripheral vision in all directions, at least as close as they can get using a rectangular shape to the screen.

Scope formats were made not around any science but to give the viewers something new and grander and mostly to not look like the TVs of the day 4:3.

The counter argument for scope is always given, no you use the screen height to determine the size of the screen. You keep going taller and taller until you would never want an image any taller and then use that height times 2.35 to get the width as we know that vision goes on and on to the sides. That actually works until you start viewing the cinematography and find you have went past your comfortable side to side vision and you find that by SMPTE specs you are sitting pretty close to the front of the theater. I would say if you are honest when you watch a scope movie you will say you are still aware of the black above and below the image. Properly framed IMAX just puts more sky and grass in those areas to feed your peripheral. It has to be just that as they are taking the same movie and cutting that sky and grass off and not hurting the movie much. That extra movie area can be amazing in like Avatar you get the feeling the floor dropped out from under you or when in Mission Imposable he’s 100 stories up scaling the building and one way you feel you are watching him looking over a railing and with IMAX you are dangling there too. In Dunkirk the IMAX footage of the airplane shots are just more spectacular filling your vision almost 100%.

That’s just my opinion and many feel scope is the pinnacle of immersion and it shouldn’t be messed around with.

Bud
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Originally Posted by GaleSubwoofer View Post
liemax
I do get LieMAX in a way.

You have been to a real IMAX theater and walked in to that space and saw that 10 story tall monster and thought Holy Smokes. Size matters I get that. IMAX branding was built around that in the 60’s and they had to invent their own nature movies to take advantage of it.

Now you fast forward 50 years or something and you walk into a IMAX1.89 and you see a 4 story tall screen that’s the same height as the place down the street that’s 10 bucks cheaper showing the same movie and you think “LieMAX”. You don’t notice the seating is more immersive or the AR of your movie includes 26% more and fills more of your vision. Then there is the stuff IMAX tries to sell it with resolution and brightness and sound ….

All we see is the screen isn’t stories tall.

Now we start talking about IMAX at home and movies framed for IMAX and costing more and most people will be watching them on their 65” TVs sitting 12’ back. There isn’t really anything IMAX about that. now the UHD BD costs 10 bucks more and we are back to LieMAX.

The best I can do at home is in my tiny theater is a 110” IMAX screen with projector and I sit back 1.5 times the height of the screen in a pitch black room with a black ceiling. All I get is image and size in my FOV somewhat appropriate to IMAX. Even with doing all that I know it’s not IMAX for real. But I know I’m right on the edge of (Good Enough).

I actually think 110” is about as small as you can go when trying to duplicate IMAX at home 140-150” at 1.5 screen height seating would be real nice. It’s almost imposable to do more than one row and support the IMAX feel at home.

That doesn’t mean its not great to look at on a smaller screen or with lesser immersion or you wont enjoy the movie, because you will.

I think this is some of the reason IMAX held off till UHD doing this and they still know most viewers at home don’t have IMAX proportioned or big enough screens with close enough seating. But it is now possible at least to do or get very close.

15 years ago I was playing IMAX 1.43 DVDs on a 120” 4:3 screen 6’x8’ and sitting back at 10’ in my pitch black basement. Everyone else had 32” CRT TVs and were playing DVD and VHS still. My place got nicknamed the Mini IMAX. It wasn’t close to an IMAX experience maybe 50% of the way there. But in comparison to driving 100 miles to a real IMAX or watching the movie on a 32” TV, they got my 5.2 sound and a couple 12” subs and that big immersive image there was nothing like it around. But it technically was a LieMAX also.

Bud
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