Wouldn't both HDR & Dolby Vision appear to look about the same on 10-bit panels? - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 39 Old 07-21-2019, 06:23 PM
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Originally Posted by DisplayCalNoob View Post
The DV grade is always 12 bit, the encode is 10 bit. 10 bit HDR10 base layer, 2 bit enhancement layer. This is combined at the display or player. Stacey says that the DV enhancement layer carries data from the mastering monitor, along with MaxCLL and MaxFaLL, etc.

MEL and FEL with different file sizes, WB seems to have really come in to its own when it comes to their grades.



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The grade itself may be 12bit, but the enhancement layer does not always contain the extra 2bits of information. Some discs and most streaming services I believe remain 10bit and only use the enhancement layer for the metadata.

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post #32 of 39 Old 07-21-2019, 09:37 PM
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Originally Posted by morphinapg View Post
The grade itself may be 12bit, but the enhancement layer does not always contain the extra 2bits of information. Some discs and most streaming services I believe remain 10bit and only use the enhancement layer for the metadata.

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You may be right, some disc have a very low DV layer footprint. I think WB is now taking a different approach to the enhancement layer, then they have before.

Paramounts MI Fallout has moments of brilliance. The WB content though, seems to be under a series of trim passes to insure that their content looks really good on 600 nit and up displays.



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post #33 of 39 Old 07-22-2019, 01:47 AM
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The difference in what we see once we get to 12 bit panels, isn't what we assume or think. Its not particularly better color, but a few things that exist in areas we usually associate with resolution, and bit rate.

We get what Dolby has always advertised as a strength of HDR and more specifically Dolby Vision. Better pixels, or fine detail. A life like image quality level of detail. More color, means more detail.

Accompany that with higher peak nit displays, there is a level of depth and sharpness you want find on a 10 bit panel comes very close.

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post #34 of 39 Old 07-22-2019, 03:56 AM
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Originally Posted by DisplayCalNoob View Post
The difference in what we see once we get to 12 bit panels, isn't what we assume or think. Its not particularly better color, but a few things that exist in areas we usually associate with resolution, and bit rate.

We get what Dolby has always advertised as a strength of HDR and more specifically Dolby Vision. Better pixels, or fine detail. A life like image quality level of detail. More color, means more detail.

Accompany that with higher peak nit displays, there is a level of depth and sharpness you want find on a 10 bit panel comes very close.

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Fine detail requires contrast between pixels, meaning RGB values are going to be significantly apart from each other, so higher bit depth doesn't improve that. High bit depth only improves areas where the RGB values are very close to each other.

Honestly accurate fine detail can be achieved with even 8bit HDR. For example, I was editing an HDR project but because of the editing environment I had to send the signal to my TV clamped to 8bit. For the most part, there wasn't a significant difference compared to 10bit. All detail and noise looked the same. Most colors looked the same. Highlights looked the same. Shadows looked the same. The only areas that looked different compared to 10bit were the areas with longer, smoother gradients between colors, like the sky, or a character's skin, or a plain floor. There you would see banding or inaccuracy in color, but even then, it wasn't a significant difference. It was like a really subtle band shifted slightly pink or something. Barely there. With 10bit, there's no evidence of anything like that. No banding, no inaccuracy in color, etc. Everything looks perfect. So I don't see how that can be improved upon. I genuinely think 12bit is beyond what we're capable of seeing. Much like 8k would be in nearly all cases.

As for brighter displays, the EOTF has the same sensitivity to bright and dark as our eyes do, so there would be no difference with brighter panels.

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post #35 of 39 Old 07-22-2019, 12:44 PM
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Originally Posted by morphinapg View Post
Fine detail requires contrast between pixels, meaning RGB values are going to be significantly apart from each other, so higher bit depth doesn't improve that. High bit depth only improves areas where the RGB values are very close to each other.

Honestly accurate fine detail can be achieved with even 8bit HDR. For example, I was editing an HDR project but because of the editing environment I had to send the signal to my TV clamped to 8bit. For the most part, there wasn't a significant difference compared to 10bit. All detail and noise looked the same. Most colors looked the same. Highlights looked the same. Shadows looked the same. The only areas that looked different compared to 10bit were the areas with longer, smoother gradients between colors, like the sky, or a character's skin, or a plain floor. There you would see banding or inaccuracy in color, but even then, it wasn't a significant difference. It was like a really subtle band shifted slightly pink or something. Barely there. With 10bit, there's no evidence of anything like that. No banding, no inaccuracy in color, etc. Everything looks perfect. So I don't see how that can be improved upon. I genuinely think 12bit is beyond what we're capable of seeing. Much like 8k would be in nearly all cases.

As for brighter displays, the EOTF has the same sensitivity to bright and dark as our eyes do, so there would be no difference with brighter panels.

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This PDF, breaks it down. To be able, to use those 3000 and some change, additional shades to produce life like detail. Attachment 2593494

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post #36 of 39 Old 07-22-2019, 12:55 PM
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Originally Posted by DERG View Post
If 12-bit Dolby Vision has more color gamut data than any current display panel can display, then I assume 12-bit Dolby Vision's color gamut is reduced to the panel's 10-bit HDR color gamut max of about one billion. Wouldn't both HDR & Dolby Vision appear to look about the same?
As someone already mentioned the real benefit of DV is per scene control of the display. I could be wrong but I think standard vanilla HDR is just a wider color gamut and brightness/darkness, but I don't believe it alters those on a scene by scene basis. Also for some reason, I think I am probably wrong, but I think DV actually takes over your current display settings and uses custom ones. At least I have noticed, DV movies on something like Netflix alter my white brightness on things like on screen menus, say like the brightness of my volume slider display.
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post #37 of 39 Old 07-25-2019, 05:46 AM
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Originally Posted by DisplayCalNoob View Post
You posted a link from the most uninformed Youtuber. He doesn't know anything.

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Actually your wrong to the ninth degree.The guy been a pro calibrator for along time and understands this stuff clearly.
What you guys don't like is truth.That maybe the guy is right . Many on this site and others gaslight people for personal gain, likes free stuff from manufacturers to review. They know DV is fake in it's present state. And if they are sponsored like Vince and RTTINGS they ain't going to say to many negative things about the products they review. If they did ,the guys sponsorship get taken away ,thus no way to make money. So when someone tell the truth 2 things happen .1 you consider maybe this guy is right or 2. you go into attack mode ,gaslighting and using propaganda to appear like the truth teller is lying and you are the one telling the truth. People like Vince are the ones lacking knowledge but he puts on a good show and uses the buzz words well.And btw Vince does not do side by side or at least I have never seen a video of him doing that. I offered a video of a guy people do not like because he tells it like it is and becomes a threat to those in the industry that can gain by not telling the whole truth about there products. It's a business and profit is the end game ,so if they can convince you your seeing Dolby vision and lie about , they will. And since he is not sponsored by anybody he can let it fly.This site wouldn't be here without sponsorship. It's the nature of the game.So now that you bashed the guy you need to prove what you think is the truth not just your what you think ..facts .
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post #38 of 39 Old 07-25-2019, 03:46 PM
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Originally Posted by tomvinelli View Post
Actually your wrong to the ninth degree.The guy been a pro calibrator for along time and understands this stuff clearly.

What you guys don't like is truth.That maybe the guy is right . Many on this site and others gaslight people for personal gain, likes free stuff from manufacturers to review. They know DV is fake in it's present state. And if they are sponsored like Vince and RTTINGS they ain't going to say to many negative things about the products they review. If they did ,the guys sponsorship get taken away ,thus no way to make money. So when someone tell the truth 2 things happen .1 you consider maybe this guy is right or 2. you go into attack mode ,gaslighting and using propaganda to appear like the truth teller is lying and you are the one telling the truth. People like Vince are the ones lacking knowledge but he puts on a good show and uses the buzz words well.And btw Vince does not do side by side or at least I have never seen a video of him doing that. I offered a video of a guy people do not like because he tells it like it is and becomes a threat to those in the industry that can gain by not telling the whole truth about there products. It's a business and profit is the end game ,so if they can convince you your seeing Dolby vision and lie about , they will. And since he is not sponsored by anybody he can let it fly.This site wouldn't be here without sponsorship. It's the nature of the game.So now that you bashed the guy you need to prove what you think is the truth not just your what you think ..facts .
Then why did it take him so damn long to post a video of him doing a calibration. He calls himself a professional, but does not provide any proof of that. Like I said, ask Stacey Spears, username (sspears) if what he says is correct.

I asked him almost a year ago to post images of his calibration from Calman and he never did, as a matter of fact, he never responded to me.

I posted information about HDR10+ and Dolby Vision in the comment section of the link you provided, again no response.

The guys knows nothing, the image he posted has had several revisions. HDR10+ and Dolby Vision are only the same in that they share the dynamic metadata title.

Don't be a sheep, do your on research, which is what I've been doing for 4 years.

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post #39 of 39 Old 07-25-2019, 03:55 PM
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Originally Posted by tomvinelli View Post
Actually your wrong to the ninth degree.The guy been a pro calibrator for along time and understands this stuff clearly.

What you guys don't like is truth.That maybe the guy is right . Many on this site and others gaslight people for personal gain, likes free stuff from manufacturers to review. They know DV is fake in it's present state. And if they are sponsored like Vince and RTTINGS they ain't going to say to many negative things about the products they review. If they did ,the guys sponsorship get taken away ,thus no way to make money. So when someone tell the truth 2 things happen .1 you consider maybe this guy is right or 2. you go into attack mode ,gaslighting and using propaganda to appear like the truth teller is lying and you are the one telling the truth. People like Vince are the ones lacking knowledge but he puts on a good show and uses the buzz words well.And btw Vince does not do side by side or at least I have never seen a video of him doing that. I offered a video of a guy people do not like because he tells it like it is and becomes a threat to those in the industry that can gain by not telling the whole truth about there products. It's a business and profit is the end game ,so if they can convince you your seeing Dolby vision and lie about , they will. And since he is not sponsored by anybody he can let it fly.This site wouldn't be here without sponsorship. It's the nature of the game.So now that you bashed the guy you need to prove what you think is the truth not just your what you think ..facts .
The guy wears a mask, how can anyone respect his opinion. He wears a Deadpool mask, dude is a few cans short of six pack.

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