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post #361 of 487 Old 12-02-2019, 12:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nathan_h View Post
Colorimeter pointed at the screen using lldv and then without would be interesting.
I have done that and indeed they are different, but couldn’t draw any conclusions as to which is better or more “correct” without knowing the spec.

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post #362 of 487 Old 12-02-2019, 12:22 PM
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Dolby Vision, including HDR10 conversion w/ DTM on Projectors?

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Originally Posted by jorgebetancourt View Post
Yeah that's what I'm curious if is better.. I do love the fact it what I'm reading and understanding is correct now I can use DV for both streaming and uhd disc without having to be changing things. Hopefully lol

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For me it’s POTENTIALLY adding some dynamic tone mapping that was missing in any other HDR setting I was using with ATV4K. so the big question for me is if this is providing a superior image to HDR out to static curve in on my JVC and if so, where does it sit compared to the multi thousand dollar envy and lumagen amazing tone mapping solutions HDR to SDR.


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post #363 of 487 Old 12-02-2019, 12:32 PM
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Since we are spoofing the Sony LLDV here, would it make sense to think that since the source(let’s say the OPPO) doesn’t get the expected feeback/communication from the Sony TV it thinks it is connected to, the resulting signal sent from the OPPO is a " Sony default" signal ?

And as such will be precessed to this "default" every time/each movie?

And as such should work with a static custom curve?

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post #364 of 487 Old 12-02-2019, 01:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nathan_h View Post
My oppo only converts to one SD curve. How do you run yours?
You can't perform this LLDV trick with the Oppo set to HDR OFF BT2020. The Oppo is processing Dolby Vision so it cannot tone map to SDR BT2020.

You would need to select either the JVC built-in HDR Gamma or a custom picture mode with a custom Arve or Autocal HDR curve. Using a SDR BT2020 user mode in the JVC will not result in correct color.

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post #365 of 487 Old 12-02-2019, 01:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalleh View Post
Since we are spoofing the Sony LLDV here, would it make sense to think that since the source(let’s say the OPPO) doesn’t get the expected feeback/communication from the Sony TV it thinks it is connected to, the resulting signal sent from the OPPO is a " Sony default" signal ?
I didn’t think there’s any “feedback” other than the EDID.

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post #366 of 487 Old 12-02-2019, 01:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
I have done that and indeed they are different, but couldn’t draw any conclusions as to which is better or more “correct” without knowing the spec.
Cool.

Yes, the only way to know if it is correct is to monitor it on a DV display that is made for LLDV like a Sony flat panel and then see if the same image shows up on a non DV display when the source is tricked into sending a processed LLDV signal.

Without that comparison, seeing the objective readings of the non DV display with the LLDV sent to it would be interesting but not definitive. Based on user reports of color shift, I'm guessing it's not working ideally?
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post #367 of 487 Old 12-02-2019, 01:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
I didn’t think there’s any “feedback” other than the EDID.
Well, it is said that with the LLDV and player led setting, the player takes the "grunt" of the processing, and one can assume that the ID of the display(nit capability etc) is what is left of feedback for the player to adjust to.

Regardless, wouldn’t it be logically that the precessed signal coming from the source would be to the same spec each time?

Nothing left for the display to adjust to/for ?

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post #368 of 487 Old 12-02-2019, 01:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
That’s what happens with ATV4K as well, which we believe will send Profile 5 to compatible displays. i did the test to see if the UB820 can also send Profile 5, and it appeared to, but I’m not sure if this simple test conclusively “proves” that. If it does, atabea will not need to by the x800m2 specifically for LLDV.
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Originally Posted by atabea View Post
^^^^Thanks for conducting that test, Dominic. Would be interesting to hear what @claw thinks about this.
While I don't use my UB820 for LLDV, it will send LLDV output for Dolby Vision discs, and Dolby Vision content on both Netflix and Amazon Prime Video.

I watch all UHD disc content with MadVR DTM. I only use LLDV to watch Amazon and Netflix Dolby Vision content from my Apple TV 4K with match frame rate turned on. UB820 outputs all streaming service content as 4K60.

I just tested UB820 with Jack Ryan Season 2 on Amazon and I was surprised to see Atmos audio with the LLDV. I had never gotten Atmos from Amazon Video before. I disabled Dolby Vision in the UB820 and Jack Ryan played in HDR10 with DD+, no Atmos. So Amazon seems to include Atmos for Dolby Vision but not for HDR10, at least on the UB820.
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post #369 of 487 Old 12-02-2019, 02:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by claw View Post
While I don't use my UB820 for LLDV, it will send LLDV output for Dolby Vision discs, and Dolby Vision content on both Netflix and Amazon Prime Video.

I watch all UHD disc content with MadVR DTM. I only use LLDV to watch Amazon and Netflix Dolby Vision content from my Apple TV 4K with match frame rate turned on. UB820 outputs all streaming service content as 4K60.

I just tested UB820 with Jack Ryan Season 2 on Amazon and I was surprised to see Atmos audio with the LLDV. I had never gotten Atmos from Amazon Video before. I disabled Dolby Vision in the UB820 and Jack Ryan played in HDR10 with DD+, no Atmos. So Amazon seems to include Atmos for Dolby Vision but not for HDR10, at least on the UB820.
@Dominic Chan and @claw , based on this information and if I am understanding it correctly, the Sony X800M2 isn't doing anything "extra" to the LLDV processing and, as such, I can return it and pick up the ATV instead??
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post #370 of 487 Old 12-02-2019, 02:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atabea View Post
@Dominic Chan and @claw , based on this information and if I am understanding it correctly, the Sony X800M2 isn't doing anything "extra" to the LLDV processing and, as such, I can return it and pick up the ATV instead??
@Bytehoven found differences but I don't have the x800m2 so can't tell.

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post #371 of 487 Old 12-02-2019, 02:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
@Bytehoven found differences but I don't have the x800m2 so can't tell.
Since I currently have both, I can do a comparison. Just to make sure it's an even playing field, how would you recommend I set up both players?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atabea View Post
@Dominic Chan and @claw , based on this information and if I am understanding it correctly, the Sony X800M2 isn't doing anything "extra" to the LLDV processing and, as such, I can return it and pick up the ATV instead??
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
@Bytehoven found differences but I don't have the x800m2 so can't tell.
I don't have the X800M2 either.

With the ATV4K, I can also get LLDV from the new shows on Apple TV+ where I got a one year free subscription.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atabea View Post
Since I currently have both, I can do a comparison. Just to make sure it's an even playing field, how would you recommend I set up both players?
Most of the UB820 HDR display options are disabled when the Dolby Vision option is turned on, so they shouldn’t matter. I’m not sure if the Display Type setting is used for Dolby Vision.

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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
Most of the UB820 HDR display options are disabled when the Dolby Vision option is turned on, so they shouldn’t matter. I’m not sure if the Display Type setting is used for Dolby Vision.
Just in case the display type IS used, what would you recommend I set it at?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atabea View Post
Just in case the display type IS used, what would you recommend I set it at?
Does the x800m2 also have a display type setting?

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
Does the x800m2 also have a display type setting?
I haven't even unboxed it yet. I was actually hoping I could return it without cracking it open but the only way to know for sure is to actually try it in my system. I will check for display type in the Sony. If is DOES have a display type similar to the UB820, and IF such display type is even active during LLDV playback, where would you recommend I should set it? I will also try to take some pictures (Iphone 8).
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atabea View Post
I haven't even unboxed it yet. I was actually hoping I could return it without cracking it open but the only way to know for sure is to actually try it in my system. I will check for display type in the Sony. If is DOES have a display type similar to the UB820, and IF such display type is even active during LLDV playback, where would you recommend I should set it? I will also try to take some pictures (Iphone 8).
It’s hard to say. If LLDV is indeed making use of of dynamic metadata, using a higher luminance display type may show the difference more readily; otherwise everything may be brought down to the “lowest common denominator”.

Comparing pictures will be tricky unless your camera has a manual exposure setting.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
It’s hard to say. If LLDV is indeed making use of of dynamic metadata, using a higher luminance display type may show the difference more readily; otherwise everything may be brought down to the “lowest common denominator”.

Comparing pictures will be tricky unless your camera has a manual exposure setting.
Just to be sure I will put the UB820 on high luminance and do the same (if possible) on the Sony. Wish I had a better camera than my iphone 8.
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Can you select in the HDFury which profile to support or does it always send profile 8 player only processing.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by atabea View Post
Just to be sure I will put the UB820 on high luminance and do the same (if possible) on the Sony. Wish I had a better camera than my iphone 8.
The owner’s manual says display type can be “TV” or “Projector”.

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post #381 of 487 Old 12-02-2019, 06:51 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
The owner’s manual says display type can be “TV” or “Projector”.
Yes, I had the x800m2 set to projector and the ub820 also set to projector. I will try TV on the x800m2 and the two alternate display types on the ub820.

We know the differences between the display types on the ub820/420 are 500, 1000, 1500 nits. There is no info on what TV and Projector do on the x800m2.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
Most of the UB820 HDR display options are disabled when the Dolby Vision option is turned on, so they shouldn’t matter. I’m not sure if the Display Type setting is used for Dolby Vision.
The HDR Display Type is only used when the HDR Optimizer is turned ON and when in HDR output mode. It helps the Optimizer determine what level of highlights are beyond the capability of the display and tone map those highlights.

The Optimizer is not active for Dolby Vision processing so it won't matter what Display Type you have configured. It will be ignored.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
The owner’s manual says display type can be “TV” or “Projector”.
The x800m2 display type settings Tv/Projector are only active when HDR is set to OFF, as part of the players HDR-> SDR mapping. They have no effect with HDR10 or DV LLDV.
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I was able to do a quick comparison of the Sony X800M2 and the Panasonic UB820 in LLDV mode. I only had time to sample some scenes in Jurassic Park Fallen Kingdom, Braveheart and Kickass, all of which are DV encoded. I did not try forced LLDV from HDR10—that’s for another day. My Projector was in low lamp mode and I left the M2 in default TV mode. As Claw pointed out, the UB820 will ignore TV type in DV mode anyway so I left it in my usual projector mode. I also switched between a 1000 nit and a 4000 nit Curve but the 1000 nit curve looked best in all cases (thus far).

From what I see, in person, Braveheart and Fallen Kingdom looked surprisingly good, while Kickass looked cartoonish and somewhat oversaturated. Perhaps it’s the way it was filmed or graded but I just couldn’t get it to look right. One thing I was specifically looking for is the red tint that Dominic and Claw pointed out (at least with the A1 EDID). With regard to Fallen Kingdom and Braveheart, I could not discern any red tint. Skin tones looked natural. But if I had to pick only one of the EDIDs, I would pick the LGC8, which seemed to produce a subjectively more pleasing picture.

Where the LLDV stood out most was in highlights. To me, it was superior to watching the same scenes in HDR10. My conclusion is that this “hack” can look great with the right material. I am very impressed so far and I can’t wait to try it with Netflix, Disney and Apple.

After my brief testing, I have seen enough that I will be keeping the M2. I am not sure if the M2 is doing something different with the LLDV EDIDs, but to my eyes it edges out the UB820 in the way it handles highlights and it just subjectively looks better overall with LLDV. I will also be keeping the UB820 in my system for those discs that refuse to play nicely with LLDV (Kickass), and I can revert to good ole SDR BT2020 with optimizer on as needed.

That's it for now. Can't wait to try some more movies and some Netflix, Disney and Apple TV.


PS I am having difficulty attaching the pictures---they are being attached inverted. Anyone know how to get them right side up?
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post #385 of 487 Old 12-03-2019, 02:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalleh View Post
Since we are spoofing the Sony LLDV here, would it make sense to think that since the source(let’s say the OPPO) doesn’t get the expected feeback/communication from the Sony TV it thinks it is connected to, the resulting signal sent from the OPPO is a " Sony default" signal ?

And as such will be precessed to this "default" every time/each movie?

And as such should work with a static custom curve?
The Oppo will think it's connected to a Sony (that's what the EDID does) & that's the only feedback required.

The Dolby block in this EDID is a 10 byte string. The first 3 bytes are the identifier, in the case of Dolby Vision (all flavours) , 00/D0/46. It's the next 7 bytes that we know nothing about what info they impart since it's proprietary to Dolby. All we know is it's telling the source to output Profile 5 rather than Profile 7 (assuming disc playback).

I would assume that this carries info about the TV's brightness capabilities and that defines the PQ curve the player applies to the output.

We know this is a static curve from the Profile 5 spec, but we don't know the maths. However, since it's a PQ curve, it's easy to experiment with.

Interestingly, the Dolby block in the custom LG EDID is exactly the same string, but I think that was just cut and pasted, replacing the original one (I presume that TV supports Profile 7? in which case the original Dolby string would be way different)
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post #386 of 487 Old 12-03-2019, 03:43 AM - Thread Starter
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Are there any other Sony displays which also require the profile 5 layer to process DV?

If yes and the display(s) vari substantially in tech performance and design, perhaps pulling those EDID(s) to look at those 7 bytes may be revealing? And all being Sony models there might be fewer variables to obscure any relevant info.

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post #387 of 487 Old 12-03-2019, 04:19 AM
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Are there any other Sony displays which also require the profile 5 layer to process DV?

If yes and the display(s) vari substantially in tech performance and design, perhaps pulling those EDID(s) to look at those 7 bytes may be revealing? And all being Sony models there might be fewer variables to obscure any relevant info.

Hmm..


I wonder if this is the reason my Sony Z9D, with 1800 nits of brightness with HDR, looks so dim with Dolby Vision. Perhaps the LLDV Profile 5 is the same across all Sony models, and it is only trying to reproduce a lower nit value suitable for the Sony OLEDS with only 800 nits of brightness.



This would explain a lot.


The SAME CONTENT via HDR10 looks spectacular, really bright specular highlights. Dolby Vision by comparison looks dim. I really wish Profile 5 had a proper 1800 nit DV value in the EDID suitable for my display. What a mess.

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post #388 of 487 Old 12-03-2019, 04:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Bytehoven View Post
Are there any other Sony displays which also require the profile 5 layer to process DV?

If yes and the display(s) vari substantially in tech performance and design, perhaps pulling those EDID(s) to look at those 7 bytes may be revealing? And all being Sony models there might be fewer variables to obscure any relevant info.
Yes, I believe all the 2017/18 models. I've no idea whether they've now moved to profile 7 as well though.

Indeed - it'd be very interesting to see some other EDIDs from Sony Profile 5 only TVs to see if they have the same string.

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post #389 of 487 Old 12-03-2019, 05:06 AM
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...What a mess.
That is exactly what HDR is at the moment - badly implemented standards, poor marketing etc... and Dolby, who were trying to rationalise everything have now really buggered up the landscape with Profile 5 - now you can't guarantee that your Dolby Vision source will work with your Dolby Vision TV.

If the Source is Profile 5 only (e.g ATV, Shield) and the TV is Profile 7 only (e.g Early LG), or vice versa, you're knackered!

It's given us something to play with and talk about for sure but it really muddies the already murky waters.

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post #390 of 487 Old 12-03-2019, 08:40 AM
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Some initial testing with a Apple TV 4K. The ATV sets up DV fine, but looking at the Vertex page output, it doesn’t match the input. Is this correct? Chain is: ATV->vertex 2 input 0->vertex 2 TX 0 output -> denon AVR input

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