Dolby Vision, including HDR10 conversion w/ DTM on Projectors? - Page 14 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #391 of 502 Old 12-03-2019, 08:45 AM
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Originally Posted by markswift2003 View Post
...Interestingly, the Dolby block in the custom LG EDID is exactly the same string, but I think that was just cut and pasted, replacing the original one (I presume that TV supports Profile 7? in which case the original Dolby string would be way different)
Yes, HDfury said as much in another thread...

As far as I remember, our C8 LLDV EDID is a C8 EDID modded with A1 LLDV string in it

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post #392 of 502 Old 12-03-2019, 08:48 AM
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Originally Posted by vantage78 View Post
Some initial testing with a Apple TV 4K. The ATV sets up DV fine, but looking at the Vertex page output, it doesn’t match the input. Is this correct? Chain is: ATV->vertex 2 input 0->vertex 2 TX 0 output -> denon AVR input





That’s what I get exactly and not sure what doesn’t match?? Input is the DV and output is your denon BT2020. Looks like it’s correct to me???


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post #393 of 502 Old 12-03-2019, 09:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Bytehoven View Post
Are there any other Sony displays which also require the profile 5 layer to process DV?

If yes and the display(s) vari substantially in tech performance and design, perhaps pulling those EDID(s) to look at those 7 bytes may be revealing? And all being Sony models there might be fewer variables to obscure any relevant info.
So I found a bit more info.. Not a lot, but every little byte counts...

Not including the identifier bytes, The Dolby Block for the Sony A1E is:

45 03 80 86 60 76 8F

And here's the same block from another 2018 Sony

45 0B 98 86 60 76 8F

Second & third bytes are different...

Attached is another EDID with these bytes changed to see what that does...
Attached Files
File Type: zip Full + LLDV alt.zip (401 Bytes, 7 views)
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post #394 of 502 Old 12-03-2019, 09:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vantage78 View Post
Some initial testing with a Apple TV 4K. The ATV sets up DV fine, but looking at the Vertex page output, it doesn’t match the input. Is this correct? Chain is: ATV->vertex 2 input 0->vertex 2 TX 0 output -> denon AVR input
Are you having the Vertex inject custom HDR metadata? That would likely explain why the input is reported as DV and the output as HDR.

I don't inject HDR metadata since my JVC projector does not require it. The input and output are both reported as 422 BT2020 12b DV.
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post #395 of 502 Old 12-03-2019, 09:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Mecak View Post
Hmm..


I wonder if this is the reason my Sony Z9D, with 1800 nits of brightness with HDR, looks so dim with Dolby Vision. Perhaps the LLDV Profile 5 is the same across all Sony models, and it is only trying to reproduce a lower nit value suitable for the Sony OLEDS with only 800 nits of brightness.



This would explain a lot.


The SAME CONTENT via HDR10 looks spectacular, really bright specular highlights. Dolby Vision by comparison looks dim. I really wish Profile 5 had a proper 1800 nit DV value in the EDID suitable for my display. What a mess.
But the problem is, it's not ACROSS THE BOARD DIM. Only a limited number of titles or shows. I have an A1E and HDR looks fine (great even on many titles) its just some shows in DV are absolutely unwatchable like Netflix Sabrina (on the built in app and on the xbox). If I turn off HDR and DV on the XBOX the image is bright and watchable. It is DV implementation on the Sony that is the problem.

I am receiving my Maestro today (it is out for delivery as I type this) and hopefully I can try the LG DV EDID and I hope to be able to try some different player heavy processing profiles and see if that fixes the brightness issue on the A1E.

If this fixes it then it would be up to Sony to identify what flag, bit, or algorithm that is being used in that MetaData that causes this to happen and to adjust accordingly.

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post #396 of 502 Old 12-03-2019, 10:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by claw View Post
Are you having the Vertex inject custom HDR metadata? That would likely explain why the input is reported as DV and the output as HDR.

I don't inject HDR metadata since my JVC projector does not require it. The input and output are both reported as 422 BT2020 12b DV.
Ah. Yes, I have the radio button “Use custom HDR for TX0 and TX1 when input is LLDV (for ATV only)” checked. I was under the impression that this triggers HDR only when receiving LLDV, which then would trigger my RS640 to go into HDR mode (Chad curve) or my calibrated SDR Depending on the content

This switching does indeed work, but am I still getting the DV?
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post #397 of 502 Old 12-03-2019, 10:16 AM
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Originally Posted by vantage78 View Post
Ah. Yes, I have the radio button “Use custom HDR for TX0 and TX1 when input is LLDV (for ATV only)” checked. I was under the impression that this triggers HDR only when receiving LLDV, which then would trigger my RS640 to go into HDR mode (Chad curve) or my calibrated SDR Depending on the content



This switching does indeed work, but am I still getting the DV?


Well crap. I think I am in the same situation. Are you both using vertex2? I will need to check my settings tonight.


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post #398 of 502 Old 12-03-2019, 10:36 AM
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Originally Posted by tswire View Post
Well crap. I think I am in the same situation. Are you both using vertex2? I will need to check my settings tonight.


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Indeed I am. Running FW.38 on the Vertex 2.
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post #399 of 502 Old 12-03-2019, 10:50 AM
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Originally Posted by vantage78 View Post
Indeed I am. Running FW.38 on the Vertex 2.


Ok. So I have the same settings as you and I am definitely getting a good image but with that red push. My output is showing denon HDR but likely because I have some radio button checked in the vertex. I don’t remember specifically doing anything but will confirm tonight. I wonder if some people are seeing red push and some not red because of this?? Interesting.


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post #400 of 502 Old 12-03-2019, 11:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Mecak View Post
Hmm..


I wonder if this is the reason my Sony Z9D, with 1800 nits of brightness with HDR, looks so dim with Dolby Vision. Perhaps the LLDV Profile 5 is the same across all Sony models, and it is only trying to reproduce a lower nit value suitable for the Sony OLEDS with only 800 nits of brightness.



This would explain a lot.


The SAME CONTENT via HDR10 looks spectacular, really bright specular highlights. Dolby Vision by comparison looks dim. I really wish Profile 5 had a proper 1800 nit DV value in the EDID suitable for my display. What a mess.
Don't suppose you have a Vertex and could dump the EDID or a config file?

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post #401 of 502 Old 12-03-2019, 12:24 PM
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Originally Posted by vantage78 View Post
Ah. Yes, I have the radio button “Use custom HDR for TX0 and TX1 when input is LLDV (for ATV only)” checked. I was under the impression that this triggers HDR only when receiving LLDV, which then would trigger my RS640 to go into HDR mode (Chad curve) or my calibrated SDR Depending on the content

This switching does indeed work, but am I still getting the DV?
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Originally Posted by tswire View Post
Well crap. I think I am in the same situation. Are you both using vertex2? I will need to check my settings tonight.
Yes, you are still getting the LLDV. All the HDR metadata is going to do is trigger your display to process it as HDR10.

I select my projector HDR picture mode manually instead of sending metadata.
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post #402 of 502 Old 12-03-2019, 01:11 PM
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Originally Posted by claw View Post
Yes, you are still getting the LLDV. All the HDR metadata is going to do is trigger your display to process it as HDR10.



I select my projector HDR picture mode manually instead of sending metadata.


Gotcha. However I am hearing that HD Fury is going to adjust the macros for JVC to include LLDV flag in addition to HDR so that will work in the same fashion.


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post #403 of 502 Old 12-03-2019, 01:25 PM
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Originally Posted by tswire View Post
Gotcha. However I am hearing that HD Fury is going to adjust the macros for JVC to include LLDV flag in addition to HDR so that will work in the same fashion.
I believe the new JVC macro for LLDV will be included in the Vertex2, Diva, and I assume, Maestro. Should be coming soon. The other devices do not have any memory left to make this addition. HDfury devices today recognize LLDV input as it is reported in the UI as such. The new LLDV JVC Macro will be executed when the input signal is LLDV. The macro will send an RS-232 command to the JVC projector to select the custom user mode you specified in the LLDV Macro.

The JVC Macros in the Vertex2, Diva, and Maestro can be used with other displays that support incoming commands via RS-232. There is a custom command field for each macro where you can enter the appropriate command string for your display. The JVC RS-232 commands are built-in to the device.

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post #404 of 502 Old 12-03-2019, 01:35 PM
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Originally Posted by claw View Post
Yes, you are still getting the LLDV. All the HDR metadata is going to do is trigger your display to process it as HDR10.



I select my projector HDR picture mode manually instead of sending metadata.


Gotcha. However I am hearing that HD Fury is going to adjust the macros for JVC to include LLDV flag in addition to HDR so that will work in the same fashion.


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post #405 of 502 Old 12-03-2019, 02:44 PM
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Originally Posted by tswire View Post
Gotcha. However I am hearing that HD Fury is going to adjust the macros for JVC to include LLDV flag in addition to HDR so that will work in the same fashion.
As I mentioned in my previous post HDfury will be adding a JVC Macro that is executed when the HDfury device sees LLDV input. There is no LLDV flag to include in the output. The input is already LLDV.

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post #406 of 502 Old 12-03-2019, 06:13 PM
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Originally Posted by claw View Post
As I mentioned in my previous post HDfury will be adding a JVC Macro that is executed when the HDfury device sees LLDV input. There is no LLDV flag to include in the output. The input is already LLDV.


Yup. Sorry my post got duplicated. I am waiting for that as my old macro is obviously not working when receiving LLDV and have to manually change it. First world problems.


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post #407 of 502 Old 12-03-2019, 07:56 PM
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Yes, you are still getting the LLDV. All the HDR metadata is going to do is trigger your display to process it as HDR10.

I select my projector HDR picture mode manually instead of sending metadata.
Thanks Claw. So if I understand correctly, the LLDV is still being passed to my RS640, but the projector sees the HDR metadata and then switches into the HDR mode for any DV content.
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post #408 of 502 Old 12-03-2019, 08:32 PM
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Originally Posted by vantage78 View Post
Thanks Claw. So if I understand correctly, the LLDV is still being passed to my RS640, but the projector sees the HDR metadata and then switches into the HDR mode for any DV content.


So this would effectively do the same macro as I currently have BUT use LLDV instead of HDR for the ATV?

So I am not understanding the HDR/DV tab yet but going to do a bit of research. In the meantime I want to setup ATV to have menu set at SDR with match range on to use LLDV for HDR content. Is it ok to have it set this way? As long as I set my EDID to Sony LLDV it should force the ATV4k to use DV, correct? What would I use the HDR/DV menu for in vertex 2? See below for my current setup while watching Breaking Bad on Netflix in SDR.




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post #409 of 502 Old 12-03-2019, 11:08 PM
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Further to my previous observations, I just tested two more DV encoded movies (Gladiator and Mama Mia Here we go again) and this time there was definitely a red tint to skin tones. Clearly, this method is source dependent as Braveheart and Fallen kingdom looked fine. I hope we can find a workaround for the affected titles as other aspects (color, highlights, shadow detail) looked great.
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Originally Posted by atabea View Post
Further to my previous observations, I just tested two more DV encoded movies (Gladiator and Mama Mia Here we go again) and this time there was definitely a red tint to skin tones. Clearly, this method is source dependent as Braveheart and Fallen kingdom looked fine. I hope we can find a workaround for the affected titles as other aspects (color, highlights, shadow detail) looked great.
Please confirm which player and which EDID. Thanks

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Please confirm which player and which EDID. Thanks
Tonight I just used the X800M2 with the LGC8 EDID. I didn't change player (UB820) or switch EDIDs because the wife and some friends were watching the movies. I hope to get a big chunk of time to do a lot more testing soon.
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Watched this on a 4K TV tonight...



Cable Channel Choice is the only choice I want to make !!
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post #413 of 502 Old 12-04-2019, 05:21 AM
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Thanks Claw. So if I understand correctly, the LLDV is still being passed to my RS640, but the projector sees the HDR metadata and then switches into the HDR mode for any DV content.
Yes.
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post #414 of 502 Old 12-04-2019, 05:43 AM
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Originally Posted by tswire View Post
So this would effectively do the same macro as I currently have BUT use LLDV instead of HDR for the ATV?

So I am not understanding the HDR/DV tab yet but going to do a bit of research. In the meantime I want to setup ATV to have menu set at SDR with match range on to use LLDV for HDR content. Is it ok to have it set this way? As long as I set my EDID to Sony LLDV it should force the ATV4k to use DV, correct? What would I use the HDR/DV menu for in vertex 2? See below for my current setup while watching Breaking Bad on Netflix in SDR.
There are currently JVC Macros for SDR REC709, SDR BT2020, HDR10, HLG, etc. Each can be used to trigger the sending of a command to a JVC projector to select the preferred custom user mode.

The new JVC Macro being added will be executed when the HDfury device sees LLDV input. The LLDV macro will send a command to select the JVC custom user mode you configured in the macro. A reason for needing the new macro for LLDV is that currently the SDR BT2020 macro is executed when the device sees LLDV. That's not good because the signal is not SDR BT2020.

Some are sending custom HDR metadata with the LLDV signal. This will cause most displays to auto-select an HDR10 picture mode. But you shouldn't use custom metadata and have the SDR BT2020 macro enabled. The JVC projector will switch to an HDR picture mode because it sees the metadata, but the SDR BT2020 macro will send a command to select the SDR BT2020 custom user mode.

If you want to send custom HDR metadata, then the default values shown in the HDR tab are as good as any. No matter what values you choose it is still fake metadata. If you want to send the custom metadata only for LLDV content, then mark the Use Custom HDR when the input is LLDV checkbox.

As for the ATV4K, you can't configure it to send SDR as SDR, and send LLDV for HDR10 and Dolby Vision content.

If you set...

Dolby Vision
Match Frame rate either ON or OFF
Match Dynamic Range ON

you will get SDR as SDR, HDR10 as HDR10, and Dolby Vision as LLDV.


If you set...

Dolby Vision
Match Frame rate either ON or OFF
Match Dynamic Range OFF

you will get SDR as LLDV, HDR10 as LLDV, and Dolby Vision as LLDV.


There is no combination to get SDR as SDR and HDR10 as LLDV.

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post #415 of 502 Old 12-04-2019, 06:36 AM
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Originally Posted by claw View Post
There are currently JVC Macros for SDR REC709, SDR BT2020, HDR10, HLG, etc. Each can be used to trigger the sending of a command to a JVC projector to select the preferred custom user mode.



The new JVC Macro being added will be executed when the HDfury device sees LLDV input. The LLDV macro will send a command to select the JVC custom user mode you configured in the macro. A reason for needing the new macro for LLDV is that currently the SDR BT2020 macro is executed when the device sees LLDV. That's not good because the signal is not SDR BT2020.



Some are sending custom HDR metadata with the LLDV signal. This will cause most displays to auto-select an HDR10 picture mode. But you shouldn't use custom metadata and have the SDR BT2020 macro enabled. The JVC projector will switch to an HDR picture mode because it sees the metadata, but the SDR BT2020 macro will send a command to select the SDR BT2020 custom user mode.



If you want to send custom HDR metadata, then the default values shown in the HDR tab are as good as any. No matter what values you choose it is still fake metadata. If you want to send the custom metadata only for LLDV content, then mark the Use Custom HDR when the input is LLDV checkbox.



As for the ATV4K, you can't configure it to send SDR as SDR, and send LLDV for HDR10 and Dolby Vision content.



If you set...



Dolby Vision

Match Frame rate either ON or OFF

Match Dynamic Range ON



you will get SDR as SDR, HDR10 as HDR10, and Dolby Vision as LLDV.





If you set...



Dolby Vision

Match Frame rate either ON or OFF

Match Dynamic Range OFF



you will get SDR as LLDV, HDR10 as LLDV, and Dolby Vision as LLDV.





There is no combination to get SDR as SDR and HDR10 as LLDV.


Gotcha. But what if you set the main menu to 4K SDR so that it’s default is SDR with match range ON? I assume you will get SDR menus as SDR, any SDR material as SDR (with no switch of anything) then when content is HDR10 it will display and output HDR10. When content is DV it will output LLDV.

I think by enabling the ABILITY for ATV4k to see DV (via LLDV EDID) it will basically trigger that LLDV when content is DV only. Correct?


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post #416 of 502 Old 12-04-2019, 06:39 AM
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Gotcha. But what if you set the main menu to 4K SDR so that it’s default is SDR with match range ON? I assume you will get SDR menus as SDR, any SDR material as SDR (with no switch of anything) then when content is HDR10 it will display and output HDR10. When content is DV it will output LLDV.

I think by enabling the ABILITY for ATV4k to see DV (via LLDV EDID) it will basically trigger that LLDV when content is DV only. Correct?
Yes, with Match Dynamic Range set to ON. I misunderstood your previous post to say you wanted HDR10 content to also be output as LLDV.

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post #417 of 502 Old 12-04-2019, 06:51 AM
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Originally Posted by claw View Post
Yes, with Match Dynamic Range set to ON. I misunderstood your previous post to say you wanted HDR10 content to also be output as LLDV.


Perfect. Ya I was toying with turning match range OFF so that any HDR will be converted to LLDV by the ATV4k but this causes SDR to be converted and looks horrible so far.

So anything you suggest as “best practice” so far? My settings ok on my vertex2 based on my previous post? Thanks bud


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post #418 of 502 Old 12-04-2019, 07:04 AM
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Ya I was toying with turning match range OFF so that any HDR will be converted to LLDV by the ATV4k but this causes SDR to be converted and looks horrible so far.
I don’t expect the ATV4K to convert HDR10 to LLDV, whether Match Range is on or off.

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post #419 of 502 Old 12-04-2019, 09:36 AM
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This has been a really interesting thread to follow, and appreciate the out-of-the-box thinking being done here!

I haven't yet pursued any of this on my own, but would consider it, depending on what this brings to the table:

So, if someone has a JVC Projector, with the new Dynamic Tone Mapping update, what does this new approach accomplish in real-world terms?

I can see the benefit of enabling some type of dynamic tone mapping when used with a Projector or other display device that doesn't have this capability, but does it improve upon what the NX5/NX7/NX9 do natively?

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post #420 of 502 Old 12-04-2019, 12:31 PM
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@Dominic Chan I received the vertex2 but im not going to lie.. My head almost exploded this is way to much for my brain right now.. I saw the manual and I almost shipped it vertex back lol.

I did manage to get into the webserver and saw the info tab, edid, scaler hdr/dv and so on but i have no clue what needs to be checked.. I believe i read a few pages back i need to download something into the vertex? And if so how do i download it...

Can you do a screen cap of your settings when you have time? im in no rush i can wait honestly..
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