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post #541 of 2220 Old 12-19-2019, 01:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
Yes, that movie is labelled Dolby Vision on Netflix. I have no idea if it was "shot" in DV mode, or only converted from HDR10 to DV by Netflix.
The HDR10 screen shot would have been converted from Dolby Vision to HDR10 by the ATV4K. The ATV does not send a separate HDR10 source for displays that do not support DV. All DV content is converted to HDR10 for non-DV displays. This is a peculiarity of the ATV4K, other players do source different Dolby Vision and HDR10 versions from Netflix.

I would hope that DV content on ATV4K Netflix would never be HDR10 converted to Dolby Vision, then converted again to HDR10 for non-DV displays. I think all DV content on Netflix is from a DV master.

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post #542 of 2220 Old 12-19-2019, 02:41 PM
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Originally Posted by claw View Post
The HDR10 screen shot would have been converted from Dolby Vision to HDR10 by the ATV4K. The ATV does not send a separate HDR10 source for displays that do not support DV. All DV content is converted to HDR10 for non-DV displays. This is a peculiarity of the ATV4K, other players do source different Dolby Vision and HDR10 versions from Netflix.

I would hope that DV content on ATV4K Netflix would never be HDR10 converted to Dolby Vision, then converted again to HDR10 for non-DV displays. I think all DV content on Netflix is from a DV master.
Thanks for the clarification. Looks like it will be hard to get a direct comparison between "true" HDR10 and "spoofed" DV on streaming devices, unlike UHD discs which have both layers.

Just to add another point of reference, I took a shot using the Fire TV Cube in HDR10 mode. There may be a similar conversion involved. It seems even less red than the ATV HDR10.
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post #543 of 2220 Old 12-19-2019, 03:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
Thanks for the clarification. Looks like it will be hard to get a direct comparison between "true" HDR10 and "spoofed" DV on streaming devices, unlike UHD discs which have both layers.
Just to add another point of reference, I took a shot using the Fire TV Cube in HDR10 mode. There may be a similar conversion involved. It seems even less red than the ATV HDR10.
Thanks for doing this Dominic!! I don't think I can get to taking some pictures tonight but I will as soon as I get the chance. Based on the pictures above, I can see where the ATV is slightly "rosier" than the Firetv (at least with Scarlet's skin tone). However, the ATV has a more vibrant picture with more detail and, it appears, richer colors as well. I will also test this same scene/frame of reference. If you can post some other comparison shots of DV source material, I (and @tswire ) can follow up with the same comparisons as time permits. From memory, I think "IT" and "Stranger Things" were good examples of a DV sources that had no red tint on the ATV4K.
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post #544 of 2220 Old 12-19-2019, 04:07 PM
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Originally Posted by atabea View Post
Thanks for doing this Dominic!! I don't think I can get to taking some pictures tonight but I will as soon as I get the chance. Based on the pictures above, I can see where the ATV is slightly "rosier" than the Firetv (at least with Scarlet's skin tone). However, the ATV has a more vibrant picture with more detail and, it appears, richer colors as well. I will also test this same scene/frame of reference. If you can post some other comparison shots of DV source material, I (and @tswire ) can follow up with the same comparisons as time permits. From memory, I think "IT" and "Stranger Things" were good examples of a DV sources that had no red tint on the ATV4K.
Not sure if I made it clear, but that particular comparison in post 552 is HDR10 on ATV compared with HDR10 on the Fire TV, not DV compared with HDR10. For the latter please see post 536.

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post #545 of 2220 Old 12-19-2019, 04:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
Not sure if I made it clear, but that particular comparison in post 552 is HDR10 on ATV compared with HDR10 on the Fire TV, not DV compared with HDR10.
Yeh I knew that, I was just commenting on the PQ differences between the two streaming devices. But for the sake of sorting out why some are seeing red tint (to skin tones mostly) while others are not, we have to have a common point of reference. If you could take some snaps of DV sources (Netflix) where you can demonstrate the red tint, @tswire and I can follow up with photos of the same scene(s).
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post #546 of 2220 Old 12-19-2019, 04:30 PM
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Originally Posted by atabea View Post
But for the sake of sorting out why some are seeing red tint (to skin tones mostly) while others are not, we have to have a common point of reference. If you could take some snaps of DV sources (Netflix) where you can demonstrate the red tint, @tswire and I can follow up with photos of the same scene(s).
The DV vs HDR10 comparison was already done in post 536, using DV source (Netflix). I don’t understand what additional comparison you’re asking for.

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post #547 of 2220 Old 12-19-2019, 04:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
Maybe we can focus on a few specific shows/movies and compare notes.
I was referring to this post. If we can examine a few specific DV sources where you see red tint, then @tswire and I can follow up with the same examples and compare notes.
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post #548 of 2220 Old 12-19-2019, 04:55 PM
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Originally Posted by atabea View Post
I was referring to this post. If we can examine a few specific DV sources where you see red tint, then @tswire and I can follow up with the same examples and compare notes.
I understand the plan (post 528) and have done exactly that (post 536). You can compared my results with what you see on your system.

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post #549 of 2220 Old 12-19-2019, 05:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
I understand the plan (post 528) and have done exactly that (post 536). You can compared my results with what you see on your system.
My mistake. I thought we were going to do "a few" examples. I will check this one out as soon as I can.
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post #550 of 2220 Old 12-19-2019, 06:02 PM
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My mistake. I thought we were going to do "a few" examples. I will check this one out as soon as I can.
"A few" starts with one.

Here is another example, Strange Things S3E1, 19:11

HDR10:



LLDV:



and some additional ones in the attachments.

The trend is the same as far as I can see. Note that in these two examples the LLDV images are also a little darker, but show more details (see the woman's left breast). (EDIT: This is more noticeable with the exported images. The original images viewed in Lightroom do not seem suffer as much from the loss of details).
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post #551 of 2220 Old 12-19-2019, 06:12 PM
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Thanks, Dominic, the red tint is prevalent in those examples. I watched stranger things and, from memory, I did not see such tint. I will check it out again and take some pictures. We have visitors tonight or I would be down in the basement right now
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post #552 of 2220 Old 12-19-2019, 06:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
The trend is the same as far as I can see. Note that in these two examples the LLDV images are also a little darker, but show more details (see the woman's left breast). (EDIT: strike the part about details. I noticed that one the exported images but the original images do not seem suffer from the loss of details).
It is interesting that the LLDV image appear to be darker in these snaps when, from what I have experienced, the LLDV image is typically brighter. BTW, are those images taken from your NX7?
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post #553 of 2220 Old 12-19-2019, 06:50 PM
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It is interesting that the LLDV image appear to be darker in these snaps when, from what I have experienced, the LLDV image is typically brighter. BTW, are those images taken from your NX7?
I suppose LLDV can be either brighter or darker, depending on the dynamic metadata.

The pictures were e taken on the lowly X550. I didn’t want to burn the extra hours on the NX7.
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post #554 of 2220 Old 12-19-2019, 07:26 PM
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I suppose LLDV can be either brighter or darker, depending on the dynamic metadata.

The pictures are taken on the lowly X550. I didn’t want to burn the extra hours on the NX7.
WOW! that X550 looks pretty darn good.
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post #555 of 2220 Old 12-22-2019, 12:27 AM
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I finally got the chance to do some more testing and I took these pictures. They were taken with my iphone so please bear in mind that the image looks way better in person. My PJ settings were High Lamp, BT2020, 1000 Nit Custom Curve. Vertex settings: Automix, LLDV EDID 8 LG C8 etc. There were NO red tint to the image and, like I said, the pictures just don't do justice to what I see on screen. I am convinced that the ATV is doing something different/better than the disc players (Panny UB820 and Sony X800M2) as the results are completely different.

PS I don't know why my pictures are sideways and I don't know how to get them right side up. Hopefully, they can still serve to give the general idea as to what I am seeing in my setup.
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There was one peculiar thing that I noticed; and that is to do with lamp mode. I was curious as to whether High Lamp vs Low Lamp played any part in the "red tint" phenomena and I believe that it does indeed have a subtle, yet noticeable, effect. The picture below was paused and taken in low lamp mode and if you look closely, you can definitely see some traces of a red tint. The same picture (in my previous post) in high lamp does not suffer from the "tint."
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post #557 of 2220 Old 12-22-2019, 03:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atabea View Post

PS I don't know why my pictures are sideways and I don't know how to get them right side up. Hopefully, they can still serve to give the general idea as to what I am seeing in my setup.
Formatting and image sizing are the parameters that affect positioning.


Usually all that you need to do is crop the images closer to the actual image edges...and should the issue persist, simply go to your image editor and rotate in the opposite direction that the image is taking.
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post #558 of 2220 Old 12-22-2019, 04:33 AM
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Originally Posted by atabea View Post
I finally got the chance to do some more testing and I took these pictures. They were taken with my iphone so please bear in mind that the image looks way better in person. My PJ settings were High Lamp, BT2020, 1000 Nit Custom Curve. Vertex settings: Automix, LLDV EDID 8 LG C8 etc. There were NO red tint to the image and, like I said, the pictures just don't do justice to what I see on screen. I am convinced that the ATV is doing something different/better than the disc players (Panny UB820 and Sony X800M2) as the results are completely different.



PS I don't know why my pictures are sideways and I don't know how to get them right side up. Hopefully, they can still serve to give the general idea as to what I am seeing in my setup.
Wow.. so would u say it looks better than regular hdr 10.. I still the apple TV and vertex sitting in their box waiting for you guys to figure it out. I don't want to be testing I just want to plug and play...

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post #559 of 2220 Old 12-22-2019, 07:10 AM
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Originally Posted by atabea View Post
There was one peculiar thing that I noticed; and that is to do with lamp mode. I was curious as to whether High Lamp vs Low Lamp played any part in the "red tint" phenomena and I believe that it does indeed have a subtle, yet noticeable, effect. The picture below was paused and taken in low lamp mode and if you look closely, you can definitely see some traces of a red tint. The same picture (in my previous post) in high lamp does not suffer from the "tint."
Our plan as set out in post 533 was for each person to compare LLDV against HDR10 with all other setting remaining the same. This will eliminate other variables such as camera, projector calibration, viewing browser, etc.

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post #560 of 2220 Old 12-22-2019, 09:15 AM
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Our plan as set out in post 533 was for each person to compare LLDV against HDR10 with all other setting remaining the same. This will eliminate other variables such as camera, projector calibration, viewing browser, etc.
Hi Dominic, I am not sure how to get the ATV to output HDR10 from a DV source without doing a conversion. Like @claw said up top, the ATV does not send a separate HDR10 source for non-DV Displays, while other streamers DO source different DV and HDR10 versions from Netflix. Prior to taking the photos, I did a fresh (JVC) autocal to address any gamma droop---which there was a noticeable amount---followed by adjusting white point with Chromapure/i1D3. The only way I can think of conducting a HDR10 vs LLDV comparison is by using UHD Discs with both versions of encoding. I have already done that and I found the LLDV, in those cases, were plagued with an ever present red tint. As a result, I have completely abandoned LLDV via UHD Players--- until and unless someone comes up with a way to truly defeat the dreaded red tint. BTW, your custom color profile does an amazing job in mitigating this problem!! In the meantime, there is an abundance of DV sources on Netflix, Disney+ and Prime to keep me and my ATV4K occupied indefinitely
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post #561 of 2220 Old 12-22-2019, 09:19 AM
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Hi Dominic, I am not sure how to get the ATV to output HDR10 from a DV source without doing a conversion. Like @claw said up top, the ATV does not send a separate HDR10 source for non-DV Displays, while other streamers DO source different DV and HDR10 versions from Netflix. Prior to taking the photos, I did a fresh (JVC) autocal to address any gamma droop---which there was a noticeable amount---followed by adjusting white point with Chromapure/i1D3. The only way I can think of conducting a HDR10 vs LLDV comparison is by using UHD Discs with both versions of encoding. I have already done that and I found the LLDV, in those cases, were plagued with an ever present red tint. As a result, I have completely abandoned LLDV via UHD Players--- until and unless someone comes up with a way to truly defeat the dreaded red tint. BTW, your custom color profile does an amazing job in mitigating this problem!! In the meantime, there is an abundance of DV sources on Netflix, Disney+ and Prime to keep me and my ATV4K occupied indefinitely
Unless someone with a “true” DV TV can confirm otherwise, I will have to assume the ATV conversion does not have any glaring issues.

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post #562 of 2220 Old 12-22-2019, 10:01 AM
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Wow.. so would u say it looks better than regular hdr 10.. I still the apple TV and vertex sitting in their box waiting for you guys to figure it out. I don't want to be testing I just want to plug and play...

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Insofar as the ATV4K goes, I can say that I like what I see when watching DV sources from Netflix, Disney and the like. I cannot say the same for LLDV on UHD Discs using any of the recommended UHD players (Sony X800M2 and X700). It's a bit difficult to do a direct and proper comparison via the ATV 4K, without having to do a conversion from DV to HDR10. However, out of curiosity, I briefly compared a few scenes from UHD Discs played back in HDR10 mode to the streamed DV version over the ATV and, in many cases, I did prefer the LLDV results. Since you already have the necessary equipment, it is well worth doing the experiment.
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Insofar as the ATV4K goes, I can say that I like what I see when watching DV sources from Netflix, Disney and the like. I cannot say the same for LLDV on UHD Discs using any of the recommended UHD players (Sony X800M2 and X700). It's a bit difficult to do a direct and proper comparison via the ATV 4K, without having to do a conversion from DV to HDR10. However, out of curiosity, I briefly compared a few scenes from UHD Discs played back in HDR10 mode to the streamed DV version over the ATV and, in many cases, I did prefer the LLDV results. Since you already have the necessary equipment, it is well worth doing the experiment.
Thank you. I will get around to it maybe over the holidays but I don't have any experience with vertex and it does look a little complicated. Right now I just dont feel like breaking my head..

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post #564 of 2220 Old 12-22-2019, 10:18 AM
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Dolby Vision, including HDR10 conversion w/ DTM on Projectors?

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Thank you. I will get around to it maybe over the holidays but I don't have any experience with vertex and it does look a little complicated. Right now I just dont feel like breaking my head..

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I know what you mean bro, I felt the same way when I got my vertex2. But with the likes of @claw , @Dominic Chan , @Mark S wift and @Bytehoven you should be well covered.
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post #566 of 2220 Old 12-22-2019, 11:43 AM
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Hi Dominic, I am not sure how to get the ATV to output HDR10 from a DV source without doing a conversion. Like @claw said up top, the ATV does not send a separate HDR10 source for non-DV Displays, while other streamers DO source different DV and HDR10 versions from Netflix. Prior to taking the photos, I did a fresh (JVC) autocal to address any gamma droop---which there was a noticeable amount---followed by adjusting white point with Chromapure/i1D3. The only way I can think of conducting a HDR10 vs LLDV comparison is by using UHD Discs with both versions of encoding. I have already done that and I found the LLDV, in those cases, were plagued with an ever present red tint. As a result, I have completely abandoned LLDV via UHD Players--- until and unless someone comes up with a way to truly defeat the dreaded red tint. BTW, your custom color profile does an amazing job in mitigating this problem!! In the meantime, there is an abundance of DV sources on Netflix, Disney+ and Prime to keep me and my ATV4K occupied indefinitely
What you see from the ATV4K is the reason I only use the LLDV trick with the ATV4K. The vast majority of ATV4K HDR content is Dolby Vision. I would expect that a Dolby Vision source output as LLDV should be better than an HDR10 source converted by a player to Dolby Vision then output as LLDV.
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post #567 of 2220 Old 12-22-2019, 02:23 PM
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What you see from the ATV4K is the reason I only use the LLDV trick with the ATV4K. The vast majority of ATV4K HDR content is Dolby Vision. I would expect that a Dolby Vision source output as LLDV should be better than an HDR10 source converted by a player to Dolby Vision then output as LLDV.
My question was somewhat different; i.e., whether the differences I see on the JVC between HDR10 and DV is due to the ATV converting DV to HDR, or due to the JVC not correctly displaying the spoofed DV.

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post #568 of 2220 Old 12-22-2019, 02:54 PM - Thread Starter
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My question was somewhat different; i.e., whether the differences I see on the JVC between HDR10 and DV is due to the ATV converting DV to HDR, or due to the JVC not correctly displaying the spoofed DV.
It may be a misconception to assume HDR10 and LLDV should be displayed with the same calibration. It is close, but the profile 5 layer stream is unique and ought to be worthy of our respect, in so far as the calibration requires some specific accomodation to achieve best results. If we fail to make that effort, it can hardly be the fault of the LLDV stream.

It is frustrating, stumbling around in the dark without any guide posts that might come from a better understanding of what the profile 5 layer is doing. Particularly when it comes to how or why the profile 5 layer stream produces varying results with HDR10 content.
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post #569 of 2220 Old 12-22-2019, 03:09 PM
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It may be a misconception to assume HDR10 and LLDV should be displayed with the same calibration. It is close, but the profile 5 layer stream is unique and ought to be worthy of our respect, in so far as the calibration requires some specific accomodation to achieve best results. If we fail to make that effort, it can hardly be the fault of the LLDV stream.

It is frustrating, stumbling around in the dark without any guide posts that might come from a better understanding of what the profile 5 layer is doing. Particularly when it comes to how or why the profile 5 layer stream produces varying results with HDR10 content.
That is the question I’m asking myself; i.e., are there any advantages in spoofing the ATV4K to send LLDV to the JVC.

When I have time I’ll run tests using UHD DV discs. At least I know in that case the HDR10 image has proper calibration.
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post #570 of 2220 Old 12-22-2019, 03:58 PM
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It may be a misconception to assume HDR10 and LLDV should be displayed with the same calibration.
I have been using the very same settings/calibration to watch HDR10 and LLDV without any ill effects---at least with the ATV4K. Only time I saw anomalies was when I used the spoof on DV UHD Discs and, especially, when converting HDR10 to LLDV.
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