Dolby Vision, including HDR10 conversion w/ DTM on Projectors? - Page 23 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #661 of 691 Old 01-12-2020, 02:28 AM
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Originally Posted by rilyas77 View Post
Hi when you use. The LLDV NF colour profile, what do use for colour temp, is it HDR and can I set this all up on Picture mode HDR. At the moment I just have HDR mode set with, colour profile BT.2020, colour temp HDR and Gamma custom 2. My projector was calibrated by a professional in October. Now that I have the vertex 2 for Dolby vision hack just want to know what’s best.
Hi Rilyas77, not sure which model JVC you have. I am running a RS500, BT2020 color profile, 6500k (calibrated to D65 by Adjusting 100% white). Hopefully, your calibrator created a nice Custom Gamma for you as you will definitely need one in order to run this Vertex2/DV LLDV hack. If your calibrator did not create one for you, you can always download either Javs' or Dominic's custom curves and import them onto your JVC. Similar to the Custom Gamma Curves, you can also download and import Dominic's Custom Color Profile in one of the custom color profile slots, and just select that color profile when using the DV/LLDV hack.
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post #662 of 691 Old 01-12-2020, 07:11 AM
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So when I use the LLDV NF colour profile, am I loosing much colour on the Dolby vision titles as colour filter is not enabled. I am using colour temp HDR.
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post #663 of 691 Old 01-12-2020, 08:17 AM
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Originally Posted by rilyas77 View Post
So when I use the LLDV NF colour profile, am I loosing much colour on the Dolby vision titles as colour filter is not enabled. I am using colour temp HDR.
I posted both versions of the LLDV colour profile, with and without filter, so you can use the one that you prefer.

Note, however, these profiles are simply “hacks” to desaturate the red together with some tint adjustments. They should only be used for that specific purpose.
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post #664 of 691 Old 01-12-2020, 08:36 AM
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Thanks for that, will also load up the filter version. The non filter version looks good.
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post #665 of 691 Old 01-12-2020, 09:17 AM
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Hi Dominic, just loaded the filter profile and when I activate it, it does not cause the filter to click in, I have colour space set as HDR
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post #666 of 691 Old 01-14-2020, 08:29 PM
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Hi Dominic, just loaded the filter profile and when I activate it, it does not cause the filter to click in, I have colour space set as HDR
I might have made a mistake when creating the profile with filter. Please try again (post 536).
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post #667 of 691 Old 01-14-2020, 11:33 PM
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Does anyone know what the abbreviation CR means on the OSD and also L.

Thanks

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post #668 of 691 Old 01-15-2020, 02:32 PM
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This isn't directly related to projectors, but this seems to be the most recently active thread talking about Dolby Vizion. I have kind of a simple, probably dumb question. I know that DV is similar to HDR, but that it has additional metadata imbeded in the DV layer. Does that actively take over your TV settings and change them? I noticed that when viewing DV content on my TV that the menu's brightness etc is altered which doesn't happen with regular HDR content, that I have noticed. I am fine if that is what is happening, frankly its a great idea if it does so. So that it adjusts the picture setting regardless of what you have them set to so that it adheres to what the DV signal wants it to be.
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post #669 of 691 Old 01-17-2020, 10:21 AM
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Why is this thread not showing so much interest.. This thing saved me thousands of dollars from upgrading..
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post #670 of 691 Old 01-17-2020, 01:07 PM
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Originally Posted by jorgebetancourt View Post
Why is this thread not showing so much interest.. This thing saved me thousands of dollars from upgrading..


I have been busy as f so not much testing from me unfortunately. Also I think people are trying to figure out if this method is truly giving BETTER results (actual data to support) vs the some what subjective “ya that does look better” but not sure why or if it’s as good as it could be or or or.

As of now I don’t think we have seen true fact based comparisons with supporting data that shows we are getting a much more “dynamic” picture than with HDR and static curves vs DV with static curves vs a true dynamic tone mapping from the likes of madvr and lumagen


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post #671 of 691 Old 01-17-2020, 02:14 PM
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I have been busy as f so not much testing from me unfortunately. Also I think people are trying to figure out if this method is truly giving BETTER results (actual data to support) vs the some what subjective “ya that does look better” but not sure why or if it’s as good as it could be or or or.

As of now I don’t think we have seen true fact based comparisons with supporting data that shows we are getting a much more “dynamic” picture than with HDR and static curves vs DV with static curves vs a true dynamic tone mapping from the likes of madvr and lumagen


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I don't know how this stuff works but i can tell you for sure this.. I kept the same curves i had before (javs curves) and when i applied dv to streaming or disc the dark tittles do look brighter so something happened.. I did have to fix the red tint with the saturation but nothing else..everything else stayed the same..

The stair scene on the avenger movie which was completely dark before it is now completely visible.. And blade runner as well.. I doubt that is better than lumagen but it's way better than what i had before.. I'm not going back to static curves again..
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post #672 of 691 Old 01-17-2020, 02:19 PM
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Well I have been testing this for over a week now. I also bought the Sony x800m2 UHD player. Everything on Apple TV 4K Dolby vision titles look so much better with my JVC x7900 projector. UHD and even blu rays with Sony UHD player using the vertex 2 hack with LLDV coming from the player looks very good. This has save me thousands as I have no interest in a Lumagen or madVR Envy. These devises may be better but not at the fraction of the cost the vertex 2 and the Sony UHD player cost me. Everything looks so much better. Colours really pop and look more like my OLED TV but on a 120 inch screen.
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post #673 of 691 Old 01-17-2020, 04:22 PM
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Originally Posted by tswire View Post
I have been busy as f so not much testing from me unfortunately. Also I think people are trying to figure out if this method is truly giving BETTER results (actual data to support) vs the some what subjective “ya that does look better” but not sure why or if it’s as good as it could be or or or.

As of now I don’t think we have seen true fact based comparisons with supporting data that shows we are getting a much more “dynamic” picture than with HDR and static curves vs DV with static curves vs a true dynamic tone mapping from the likes of madvr and lumagen
What turned me off of the similar thread in the other forum was the continuous claiming that this LLDV workaround is actually DTM. I see no proof of that.

The only possible case of DTM I can see might be when a player calls the Dolby Labs API to convert SDR or HDR10 to Dolby Vision. We don't know how Dolby generates the scene by scene metadata in this case. And Dolby won't reveal how they do it so we can't claim that it is or is not DTM.

Other than that conversion everything is straight up Dolby Vision. The Dolby Vision to LLDV processing uses the scene by scene Dolby Vision metadata to tone map to LLDV. That is not what I consider to be DTM.
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post #674 of 691 Old 01-17-2020, 04:40 PM
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Other than that conversion everything is straight up Dolby Vision. The Dolby Vision to LLDV processing uses the scene by scene Dolby Vision metadata to tone map to LLDV. That is not what I consider to be DTM.
Why is it not dynamic tone mapping if the tone mapping uses the dynamic metadata?

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post #675 of 691 Old 01-17-2020, 08:34 PM
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Why is not dynamic tone mapping if the tone mapping uses the dynamic metadata?
Then you have to call Dolby Vision playback by either a TV or player as DTM. I don't know many who would say that about DV.

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post #676 of 691 Old 01-17-2020, 09:13 PM
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Then you have to call Dolby Vision playback by either a TV or player as DTM. I don't know many who would say that about DV.
I agree that no one calls Dolby Version “Dynamic Tone Mapping”, but terminology aside, I don’t see in what way HDR10 DTM is inherently superior to DV, which seems to be what you were implying by the comment “What turned me off of the similar thread in the other forum was the continuous claiming that this LLDV workaround is actually DTM. I see no proof of that.”

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post #677 of 691 Old 01-18-2020, 09:10 AM
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I agree that no one calls Dolby Version “Dynamic Tone Mapping”, but terminology aside, I don’t see in what way HDR10 DTM is inherently superior to DV, which seems to be what you were implying by the comment “What turned me off of the similar thread in the other forum was the continuous claiming that this LLDV workaround is actually DTM. I see no proof of that.”
There are excellent implementations of DTM (MadVR) and there are not so good implementations of DTM (my LG B7A). Dolby Vision on my LG does look better than its DTM of HDR10 content. Dolby Vision on my LG looks better than HDR10 with LG tone mapping turned off as well.

All I am saying it that it seems misleading to me to refer to Dolby Vision with its Dynamic Metadata as DTM. We would then need to refer to HDR10+ processing as DTM as well.

My objection is only that to me DTM inherently means that processing is "real time" analysis of each frame and making decisions on tone mapping based on that. Dolby Vision processing is using dynamic metadata and other Dolby proprietary information encoded in a content layer to determine its tone mapping.

My opinion is that Dynamic Metadata (Dolby Vision and HDR10+) are not the same as DTM in the sense that each frame is not analyzed in real time. When the Dolby Vision metadata was encoded in the content, there may have been an automated process that examined each frame. But that is not tone mapping.

On the other hand I can agree that LLDV to my JVC projector from ATV4K Dolby Vision content is superior to HDR10 from my ATV4K. I just can't refer to it as DTM.

So I have no issue with claims that Dolby Vision and it LLDV variant are inherently better than HDR10 due to the botched implementation of HDR10 static metadata. But I would not agree with claims that LLDV means you have the equivalent of Lumagen DTM processing for just the cost of an HDFury device.

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post #678 of 691 Old 01-18-2020, 09:49 AM
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... My objection is only that to me DTM inherently means that processing is "real time" analysis of each frame and making decisions on tone mapping based on that.
All excellent points (as usual). However, IMHO the need for real-time analysis is a necessity resulting from the lack of dynamic metadata; the analysis is just reverse-engineering the equivalent of the dynamic metadata. I don't see it being superior to proper dynamic metadata.

Of course, as you have said, how well the tone-mapping device does with the data (present or reverse-engineered) can vary from device to device.
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post #679 of 691 Old 01-18-2020, 12:01 PM
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I don’t think anyone has said in this forum or the UK avforums this is equivalent to a Lumagen, myself and others have said it looks very very good for the cost. We don’t deny a Lumagen and Madvr will look better but not much better when you take in the fact of the cost of these devises compared to a vertex 2 or equivalent. I would say this option possibly gets you 90% of what the more expensive devices can do at a minute fraction of the cost. I am in the UK and was looking at a lumagen at nearly £6000, I have the vertex 2 and Sony x800m2 for around £600. My JVC x7900 has never looked so good and I yearly get my projector professionally Calibraterd.

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post #680 of 691 Old 01-18-2020, 12:22 PM
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All excellent points (as usual). However, IMHO the need for real-time analysis is a necessity resulting from the lack of dynamic metadata; the analysis is just reverse-engineering the equivalent of the dynamic metadata. I don't see it being superior to proper dynamic metadata.



Of course, as you have said, how well the tone-mapping device does with the data (present or reverse-engineered) can vary from device to device.
For 450 dollars I say it's better per cost than anything out there by a huge margin..

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post #681 of 691 Old 01-18-2020, 02:07 PM
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Why is this thread not showing so much interest.. This thing saved me thousands of dollars from upgrading..
I've been following it for a while but honestly I am still trying to figure out what exactly to do and if it will work well enough with my Panasonic UHD player. I really don't want to have to get another player.
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post #682 of 691 Old 01-18-2020, 02:15 PM
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I've been following it for a while but honestly I am still trying to figure out what exactly to do and if it will work well enough with my Panasonic UHD player. I really don't want to have to get another player.
There were some earlier reports that the Sony X800M2 seems to work better than the Panasonic for this, but I don’t think it’s conclusive.

Keep in mind that when viewing Dolby Vision titles all the Panasonic HDR Optimizer controls are disabled.
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post #683 of 691 Old 01-19-2020, 11:10 AM
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Tswire, I too do believe the jury is still out on the final descion as to whether this is movies as intended or movies with some color enhancements and lighting improvements. Also, given that we have 5 or 6 different devices with varying degrees of implementation and capabilities of this hack coupled with several enthusiasts all trying to make it work on numerous different display devices, it's just way too soon for a coherent, unified voice on this.

Our first objective would be a conceptual (not definitive at this point)step by step guide for the procedure so no matter what projector or display device we are attempting this on we are starting on the same page. I tried that but got yelled at. I think it's worth pursueing in a "how to" thread so the instructions are at the top and updated as needed.

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post #684 of 691 Old 01-19-2020, 11:18 AM
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Our first objective would be a conceptual (not definitive at this point)step by step guide for the procedure so no matter what projector or display device we are attempting this on we are starting on the same page. I tried that but got yelled at. I think it's worth pursueing in a "how to" thread so the instructions are at the top and updated as needed.
As far as the TV/ Projector is concerned, it’s just set up for HDR10. The Vertex is set up for EDID 5. Post 10 in this thread provides the “how to”.

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post #685 of 691 Old 01-23-2020, 09:59 AM
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I streamed angry birds 2 DV last night through apple tv and it looked ridiculously amazing.. Im never going back to custom curves that's for sure.. After i fixed the red tint with the red saturation everything has been set and forget.. No need to upgrade my 640..
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post #686 of 691 Old 01-23-2020, 11:36 AM
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I streamed angry birds 2 DV last night through apple tv and it looked ridiculously amazing.. Im never going back to custom curves that's for sure.. After i fixed the red tint with the red saturation everything has been set and forget.. No need to upgrade my 640..
Ironically, you will still/always need a good "custom curve" to use this hack. And, ideally, you shouldn't NEED to de-saturate red in order to get a good picture as that, in itself, compromises the WCG benefits that is otherwise fully preserved when using a custom curve (with HDR10). That said, when the hack works well (a good example is For all Mankind) and there is no need to adjust red/tint, it truly looks amazing. In light of these factors, I generally use the hack with my ATV when the source is DV and when it naturally presents a picture that is not affected by the red tint. Occasionally, when using UHD DV Discs, I may use Dominic's custom color profile as needed and, particularly, when the source does not take full advantage of WCG. I guess what I am saying is that while the hack has some nice benefits and potential, it is not at the "set and forget" stage yet.
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post #687 of 691 Old 01-23-2020, 11:50 AM
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Ironically, you will still/always need a good "custom curve" to use this hack. And, ideally, you shouldn't NEED to de-saturate red in order to get a good picture as that, in itself, compromises the WCG benefits that is otherwise fully preserved when using a custom curve (with HDR10). That said, when the hack works well (a good example is For all Mankind) and there is no need to adjust red/tint, it truly looks amazing. In light of these factors, I generally use the hack with my ATV when the source is DV and when it naturally presents a picture that is not affected by the red tint. Occasionally, when using UHD DV Discs, I may use Dominic's custom color profile as needed and, particularly, when the source does not take full advantage of WCG. I guess what I am saying is that while the hack has some nice benefits and potential, it is not at the "set and forget" stage yet.
I've never watch for all mankind im glad you mentioned it i love anything that has to do with space.. Will watch over the weekend..
Is there a way to check before playing if the movie has wcg? I trully understand it might not be set and forget for most but for me I'm enjoying what I have a lot more than just a custom curve and Ill wait on the sideline till you guys the pros figure out the rest.. Eventually I will upload the custom profile but im in no rush right now..
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post #688 of 691 Old 01-23-2020, 01:10 PM
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Is there a way to check before playing if the movie has wcg?
All HDR10 and DV contents have wide gamut - P3 and possibly beyond. I don’t think anyone has figured out why some exhibit a red tint with the LLDV hack.
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post #689 of 691 Old 01-23-2020, 04:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
All HDR10 and DV contents have wide gamut - P3 and possibly beyond. I don’t think anyone has figured out why some exhibit a red tint with the LLDV hack.
I wonder if it's the difference between I Ct Cp colour space and YUV?

I have seen diagrams where it shows wider differences at the colour saturation extremes.

DV uses I CtCp as far as I'm aware. Perhaps the equipment reading this DV LL mode is incorrectly decoding it as YUV, hence the hue error?

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post #690 of 691 Old 01-23-2020, 05:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Craig Mecak View Post
I wonder if it's the difference between I Ct Cp colour space and YUV?

I have seen diagrams where it shows wider differences at the colour saturation extremes.

DV uses I CtCp as far as I'm aware. Perhaps the equipment reading this DV LL mode is incorrectly decoding it as YUV, hence the hue error?
I believe @markswift2003 also explained it that way. However, I’m not sure why it only affected some contents and not others.
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