Dolby Vision, including HDR10 conversion w/ DTM on Projectors? - Page 25 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #721 of 2220 Old 02-05-2020, 12:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AndreNewman View Post
So I read all the thread... and I still have a question.

I'm hoping to give this a go, mostly for Apple TV stuff with a JVC X7000. I'm currently using SDR as HDR is often very dark, only need it for streaming, movies are played through MadVR b113 DTM, very nicely.

I have a Vertex but my AVR doesn't pass DV (Yamaha 3050) but I'm wondering if this spoofed LLDV is really DV any more? It must be some sort of standard format for a non DV display to be able to display it?

Has anyone got this working through a non DV pass though AVR? I'll try it of course and if it doesn't work it should be possible to use the vertex to connect directly and strip audio for the AVR.
Can I assume from your description that HDR is often dark that you're still using Gamma D in the 7000? If that's the case, in order to try this you really need to move to a custom gamma curve.

Apologies if you already know this, but when our PJs were manufactured there was no commercial HDR material available, just the specs, so gamma D is a pure ST.2084 curve with no discernible roll off at the top and no compensation for projection light level. This graph shows the difference between Gamma D (blue) and a decent curve (green):



As for the question of whether this is DV any more - well, yes and no.

It's most definitely exactly the same signal a Sony DV TV will receive which is to say 10-bit video (albeit usually output padded at 12-bit) in a proprietary Dolby colour space on an ST.2084 gamma curve tuned to that specific Sony TV (as defined by the Dolby block in the EDID), so yes.

These posts may explain things better:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/465-h...l#post58816066

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/465-h...l#post58819120

But we're not squirting this into a particular Sony flat screen, we're squirting it into a projector with different colour space and gamma requirements, so a bit of faffing about is needed, so no.

Ideally you'd use a Vertex 2 since this allows you to strip not only the HDR SEI message from the stream, but also the DV one too so the PJ doesn't switch into gamma D and the AVR will pass the video.

However, it's definitely worth a try with the Vertex 1 since the profile 5 video signal itself is technically no different from any other and your AVR may not care since the signal is not profile 7 (dual layer).
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post #722 of 2220 Old 02-05-2020, 01:37 AM
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Originally Posted by markswift2003 View Post
Can I assume from your description that HDR is often dark that you're still using Gamma D in the 7000? If that's the case, in order to try this you really need to move to a custom gamma curve.

As for the question of whether this is DV any more - well, yes and no.

It's most definitely exactly the same signal a Sony DV TV will receive which is to say 10-bit video (albeit usually output padded at 12-bit) in a proprietary Dolby colour space on an ST.2084 gamma curve tuned to that specific Sony TV (as defined by the Dolby block in the EDID), so yes.

But we're not squirting this into a particular Sony flat screen, we're squirting it into a projector with different colour space and gamma requirements, so a bit of faffing about is needed, so no.

Ideally you'd use a Vertex 2 since this allows you to strip not only the HDR SEI message from the stream, but also the DV one too so the PJ doesn't switch into gamma D and the AVR will pass the video.

However, it's definitely worth a try with the Vertex 1 since the profile 5 video signal itself is technically no different from any other and your AVR may not care since the signal is not profile 7 (dual layer).
Thanks for the info, I'm not using Gamma D on the X7000, I have a couple of custom curves loaded but the screen is large so I'm struggling for light, only 80nits at best, 50 for scope, I used to think they were ok until I started using MadVR. So I'm only considering a play with this hack (original meaning) for the odd Netflix show that I can't play through MadVR.

Well and also, I'm a broadcast video Engineer so this stuff is interesting to work out what's really going on.. The last time spoke to Dolby about this at a trade show it sounded like DV was more about locking down the grading tools and making money from the production process in return for a more controlled playback experience.

Sounds to me like the real trick would be to reverse engineer the DV edid such that we can put in our real display capabilities and get the player to tone map to those exactly.

I can't imagine the colour space is really much different, unless there's some mapping to the specific native colour space of a specific TV. If so we need to find the dimmest DV profile 5 capable TV with the most accurate native P3 (or bt2020) colour space and sniff the edid for that.

Everything is a bit busy this week but hoping for a few hours to give this a go next week, for now it's all talk (from me) and really the next step is go try it, see what happens.

I do have a friendly home cinema and TV supplier so going through all their showroom stock sniffing edids might be a possibility.

Thanks for all the pointers.
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post #723 of 2220 Old 02-05-2020, 02:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AndreNewman View Post
Thanks for the info, I'm not using Gamma D on the X7000, I have a couple of custom curves loaded but the screen is large so I'm struggling for light, only 80nits at best, 50 for scope, I used to think they were ok until I started using MadVR. So I'm only considering a play with this hack (original meaning) for the odd Netflix show that I can't play through MadVR.

Well and also, I'm a broadcast video Engineer so this stuff is interesting to work out what's really going on.. The last time spoke to Dolby about this at a trade show it sounded like DV was more about locking down the grading tools and making money from the production process in return for a more controlled playback experience.

Sounds to me like the real trick would be to reverse engineer the DV edid such that we can put in our real display capabilities and get the player to tone map to those exactly.

I can't imagine the colour space is really much different, unless there's some mapping to the specific native colour space of a specific TV. If so we need to find the dimmest DV profile 5 capable TV with the most accurate native P3 (or bt2020) colour space and sniff the edid for that.

Everything is a bit busy this week but hoping for a few hours to give this a go next week, for now it's all talk (from me) and really the next step is go try it, see what happens.

I do have a friendly home cinema and TV supplier so going through all their showroom stock sniffing edids might be a possibility.

Thanks for all the pointers.
Again, apologies for making the gamma D assumption - so yes, with a bright curve this hack is worth investigating, if only for curiosity.

Going back to conversations much earlier in the thread, it'd be very interesting to see other Dolby VSVD blocks and how that affects picture.

One thing I'd not considered is that so far only LLDV specific blocks, ie from the Sony A1 (and one other I've found - different block, again a Sony but bytes 5 & 6 different), have been discussed.

Since devices such as the ATV or Shield are obviously restricted to outputting Profile 5 only, if follows that the EDID used to spoof that need not be Profile 5 specific which opens the playing field up a bit. Actually - I'll clarify that - EDIDs for TVs that support both profile 7 AND profile 5, not just profile 5 (no good for those using DV BluRay players obviously..)

As you say, if we can reverse engineer the Dolby VSVD whether LLDV specific or not, that will provide a lot more information - firstly I'd love to know the full spec of the Dolby VSVD block but failing that, I'd love to know how far HDFury have got in decoding it - I think they know more than they're willing to let on

One thing I will say - I've experimented with streaming LLDV from Netflix on a Shield Pro to the 7000, fiddling with BT.2020 primaries and my own curves and I much prefer to stick to the standard LDR Rec.709 graded streams. It also means no resyncs which has to be considered a good thing with a JVC!!

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post #724 of 2220 Old 02-05-2020, 06:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
That was never Dolby’s intent. HD Fury devices can fool the display to send LLDV, but the non-DolbyVision display downstream does not have the proper colour space to properly handle it.
Comment from Dave Harper on the other forum in response to your post:



"This is not correct. The downstream display certainly does have the correct color space, because it is YCbCr, not ICtCp. We are talking the LLDV version of Dolby Vision, Dominic Chan, not the original Dolby Vision RGB base + enhancement layer version of DV.

In one of the final stages of the DV display process, the ICtCp color space is converted to YCbCr, as seen in the image below, from here:

https://www.dolby.com/us/en/technolo...hite-paper.pdf

Someone please make sure to post the appropriate responses to those posts over on AVS to clear these misconceptions. Thanks!

@Bytehoven , where have you been? I would hate to think I/we upset you in some way and you've abandoned this project? Your input has been invaluable here!"





I'm not going to keep doing this BTW, it was just he mentioned me too and, as I had 5 minutes spare, I disseminated the info across the two threads concerned. I am not going to be making a habit of it, but I thought it needed sharing. The more info the better I say.

Sharing is caring after all!
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post #725 of 2220 Old 02-05-2020, 07:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Archibald1 View Post
Comment from Dave Harper on the other forum in response to your post:
"This is not correct. The downstream display certainly does have the correct color space,
Perhaps Dave Harper can provide an explanation on the red tint that everyone sees under some conditions.

The diagram he attached clearly says "The display manager is tuned for the target display device: it knows the maximum and minimum brightness, color gamut and other characteristics of that device... Using this metadata, the display manager intelligently transforms the full-range signal to produce the best possible output on the target device."

Thus, just because the final signal is in YCbCr, it does not mean that the signal is standard BT.2020.
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post #726 of 2220 Old 02-05-2020, 07:25 AM
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Shame he can't come on here and do so himself.

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post #727 of 2220 Old 02-05-2020, 11:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archibald1 View Post
Comment from Dave Harper on the other forum in response to your post:



"This is not correct. The downstream display certainly does have the correct color space, because it is YCbCr, not ICtCp. We are talking the LLDV version of Dolby Vision, Dominic Chan, not the original Dolby Vision RGB base + enhancement layer version of DV."
There's not a huge amount there that makes much sense. YCbCr and ICtCp are both colour encoding schemes and not colour spaces and "the original Dolby Vision" (Profile 7) base layer in fact resides within BT.2020 with PQ gamma, hence the backward compatibility of "the original Dolby Vision".

The "LLDV version of Dolby Vision" (Profile 5) has no such backward compatibility.

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Originally Posted by AndreNewman View Post
Correction, I should have said "I think I need a vertex 2 to do HDR metadata properly" ;-)
I've been wanting HDFury to tweak the masking feature for me, they said yes but Vertex 2, so maybe I will now have two excuses to upgrade.

Sounds like it's worth a few hours play, I did read all of your post, thanks, it's much appreciated. I'm pretty happy how to try this and the overlay tweak might be important as I'm about to move the AVR & all that to a separate room.
Can you explain how you are using the masking feature and what you are asking to have changed?
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post #729 of 2220 Old 02-05-2020, 12:30 PM
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Can you explain how you are using the masking feature and what you are asking to have changed?
Think he's talking about the OSD mask Scott, not what we're looking for...

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Originally Posted by markswift2003 View Post
Think he's talking about the OSD mask Scott, not what we're looking for...
I was assuming he meant digital masking, like an OPPO203 can do in 21:9 cropped mode. It seems that it would still be useful for some zoomers.
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post #731 of 2220 Old 02-05-2020, 02:49 PM
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Originally Posted by markswift2003 View Post
Apologies if you already know this, but when our PJs were manufactured there was no commercial HDR material available, just the specs, so gamma D is a pure ST.2084 curve with no discernible roll off at the top and no compensation for projection light level. This graph shows the difference between Gamma D (blue) and a decent curve (green):
When normalized for diffuse white, Gamma D is quite a bit darker in the low end than ST.2084. The later JVC models came with ST.2084 as one of the preset gammas, which is a major improvement.
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post #732 of 2220 Old 02-05-2020, 11:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
When normalized for diffuse white, Gamma D is quite a bit darker in the low end than ST.2084. The later JVC models came with ST.2084 as one of the preset gammas, which is a major improvement.
Sorry, probably should have said perceptual quantiser curve.

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post #733 of 2220 Old 02-07-2020, 09:58 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Archibald1 View Post

@Bytehoven , where have you been? I would hate to think I/we upset you in some way and you've abandoned this project? Your input has been invaluable here!"[/B]
Dave... no drama here, just busy with life outside AVS DV LLDV

Also, I stopped getting thread updates on your avforums thread.
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Can you explain how you are using the masking feature and what you are asking to have changed?
This is the thread about it:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/37-vi...l#post58082482

It was just that I realised the vertex can switch it's mask on and off with a single command, the JVC X7000 has it buried several menus deep and there's no direct IR command (that I can find, please correct me, if I missed it).

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post #735 of 2220 Old 02-09-2020, 11:06 AM
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... and there's no direct IR command (that I can find, please correct me, if I missed it).

Andre
Unfortunately not, only mask +/- for IR. There are however discrete RS232 commands for Mask Custom 1, 2 & 3 if that's an option.

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I just watched Edge of Tomorrow on regular 1080P blu ray, converted to DV on my X800M2. It looked spectacular!! I have watched this movie at least a dozen times and this was easily the best it has ever looked. If you have this movie, a HDFury device and a Sony X700/X800M2, give it a spin and see for yourself. In my JVC PJ I used Dominic's 85/4000 custom curve and his LLDV color profile. Took these photos with my iphone so it does not do justice to what actually appears on screen.
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I just watched Edge of Tomorrow on regular 1080P blu ray, converted to DV on my X800M2. It looked spectacular!! I have watched this movie at least a dozen times and this was easily the best it has ever looked. If you have this movie, a HDFury device and a Sony X700/X800M2, give it a spin and see for yourself. In my JVC PJ I used Dominic's 85/4000 custom curve and his LLDV color profile. Took these photos with my iphone so it does not do justice to what actually appears on screen.


Where did you find this custom curve and LLDV color profile?


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Where did you find this custom curve and LLDV color profile?


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Here are Dominic's Color Profiles and Custom Gammas:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/attac...2&d=1545487842

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/attac...4&d=1579058859

They contain both Filter and No Filter versions.
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Originally Posted by atabea View Post
Here are Dominic's Color Profiles and Custom Gammas:



https://www.avsforum.com/forum/attac...2&d=1545487842



https://www.avsforum.com/forum/attac...4&d=1579058859



They contain both Filter and No Filter versions.


Alright thank you. I guess the next question would be - what do I do with these files? Upload one to the vertex2 and one to the JVC?


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Originally Posted by atabea View Post
I just watched Edge of Tomorrow on regular 1080P blu ray, converted to DV on my X800M2. It looked spectacular!! I have watched this movie at least a dozen times and this was easily the best it has ever looked. If you have this movie, a HDFury device and a Sony X700/X800M2, give it a spin and see for yourself. In my JVC PJ I used Dominic's 85/4000 custom curve and his LLDV color profile. Took these photos with my iphone so it does not do justice to what actually appears on screen.
Have you tried any 1000 nits or 2000 nits curves? I believe with the Sony A1 EDID, the player would have already tone-mapped the LLDV stream to somewhere around 1000 nits.

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post #741 of 2220 Old 02-10-2020, 12:43 PM
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Alright thank you. I guess the next question would be - what do I do with these files? Upload one to the vertex2 and one to the JVC?

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Hi Darth, both the custom gamma and the custom color profile should be uploaded to the JVC using the appropriate JVC autocal software. There are 3 custom gamma slots and six custom color slots available on the JVC.
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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
Have you tried any 1000 nits or 2000 nits curves? I believe with the Sony A1 EDID, the player would have already tone-mapped the LLDV stream to somewhere around 1000 nits.
I haven't tried any 1000 nits or 1200 nits curves with the SDR to DV conversion. Come to think of it, it would make a lot of sense that the player tone maps to around 1000 nits since most (sony) OLEDs top out at around 800 nits and we are using the Sony A1 EDID. I will load up your 85/1200 curve and give it a go. Would you happen to have a 85/1000 nit curve that you don't mind sharing?

BTW, I didn't take any pictures but I also watched the EQUALIZER 4K disc converted to DV, and it was pure eye candy!
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post #743 of 2220 Old 02-10-2020, 01:39 PM
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Would you happen to have a 85/1000 nit curve that you don't mind sharing?
The 1200 nit curve is intended to be 1000 nits, to account for rounding and provide some headroom.
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JVC DLA-X550R; Denon AVR-X3400H; HD Fury Linker / Vertex 2; ATV4K; Sony UBP-X700
JVC Curves; Optimizing HDR;
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post #744 of 2220 Old 02-10-2020, 02:09 PM
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Out of interest, is the Sony UBP-X800M2 the top of the line Sony model, and the best unit for this setup? I'm in Australia and Sony's website is pretty bad and only actually lists one model of UHD player!!!
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post #745 of 2220 Old 02-10-2020, 02:24 PM
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For anyone who wants to be blown away with colors try playing trolls and turbo.. these streams to me look better than disc. It's crazy what a difference this makes

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post #746 of 2220 Old 02-10-2020, 02:53 PM
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Out of interest, is the Sony UBP-X800M2 the top of the line Sony model, and the best unit for this setup? I'm in Australia and Sony's website is pretty bad and only actually lists one model of UHD player!!!
The Sony players (X700, X800M2 and X1100ES) are the best players to use with this "hack" as they allow for the ability to convert SDR Blu ray discs as well as UHD HDR10 discs to DV. The OPPOs (203 and 205) do this as well but they have been discontinued so the Sonys remain the only available choice. The Panasonic UB820 and UB9000 CAN be used to output LLDV but ONLY with native DV Discs and not with native HDR10 discs. I suspect that all three Sony players will produce the same results insofar as this hack is concerned, so you probably don't have to shoot for the top of the line 1100ES. The x700 or x800m2 should do just fine.
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post #747 of 2220 Old 02-10-2020, 06:43 PM
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The Sony players (X700, X800M2 and X1100ES) are the best players to use with this "hack" as they allow for the ability to convert SDR Blu ray discs as well as UHD HDR10 discs to DV. The OPPOs (203 and 205) do this as well but they have been discontinued so the Sonys remain the only available choice. The Panasonic UB820 and UB9000 CAN be used to output LLDV but ONLY with native DV Discs and not with native HDR10 discs. I suspect that all three Sony players will produce the same results insofar as this hack is concerned, so you probably don't have to shoot for the top of the line 1100ES. The x700 or x800m2 should do just fine.
Thanks. I think I can get a x800m2 in Australia so I might try that.

I also like the fact (from reading here) is it also seems to apply LLDV to blu rays also, not just UHDs. I'm interested in seeing how that shows.
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post #748 of 2220 Old 02-10-2020, 07:11 PM
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Thanks. I think I can get a x800m2 in Australia so I might try that.

I also like the fact (from reading here) is it also seems to apply LLDV to blu rays also, not just UHDs. I'm interested in seeing how that shows.
From what I have seen so far, it is well worth the effort and the relatively small investment (vertex/sony uhd player/apple 4k). Just make sure you acquire Dominic's LLDV color profile and his bright custom (1000 nit) gamma curve. You won't need to use the LLDV profile all of the time, but for those problematic discs (where red tint/over saturation), the profile bridges the gap very nicely.
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post #749 of 2220 Old 02-10-2020, 07:18 PM
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From what I have seen so far, it is well worth the effort and the relatively small investment (vertex/sony uhd player/apple 4k). Just make sure you acquire Dominic's LLDV color profile and his bright custom (1000 nit) gamma curve. You won't need to use the LLDV profile all of the time, but for those problematic discs (where red tint/over saturation), the profile bridges the gap very nicely.
Thanks. I think they are for JVC. Wonder if they work on Sony projectors also.

Last edited by MOberhardt; 02-10-2020 at 07:22 PM.
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post #750 of 2220 Old 02-10-2020, 07:46 PM
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Thanks. I think they are for JVC. Wonder if they work on Sony projectors also.
Ooops, dunno why I assumed you had a JVC. I have no experience with sony pjs. Hopefully, someone with a Sony Pj who is using this hack will be able to share some tips with you.
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