Dolby Vision, including HDR10 conversion w/ DTM on Projectors? - Page 27 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #781 of 1343 Old 02-13-2020, 02:30 AM
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Looks like things have moved along well in the last few days :-)

I dropped in to the friendly Home Cinema place yesterday and they are happy for me to go sniff edids of all their Dolby Vision sets in the showroom and demo rooms if it's useful. We still can't see eye to eye on vinyl but they are otherwise very accommodating.

I'm hoping I can do this with a DV capable uhd bluray player and a vertex connected to a laptop? Or maybe I can take my AppleTV box as a source, they will provide a cat5 or wifi key.

It's looking like this won't be needed from the progress made but it's an option if useful. Will have to be Monday earliest, they won't want me taking the showroom apart on a Friday or Saturday!
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post #782 of 1343 Old 02-13-2020, 04:46 AM
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Originally Posted by atabea View Post
@bmandra , @Dominic Chan , @claw , @zombie10k and @Mark Swift will have this all figured out in short order
Can only agree fully !
As a rookie(and coming from Sony Projectors), this works like a charm !!
Tried Dominic Chan´s bright curves and LLDV5 profile yesterday.
Keep up the good work guys !
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post #783 of 1343 Old 02-13-2020, 05:57 AM
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Well, I think I have decided to buy a Pioneer UDP-LX500 for this little venture. You can't force it to output DV but I am only really interested in DV on DV enabled titles anyway. HD/SDR and HD TV already look very good on my 760 and I don't see the need to fu….. um, fiddle, around with those modes personally.

It is pretty expensive player but it is more versatile in its options than the Panny. I can then use the Panny elsewhere.

I was trying to find a good used Oppo 203, but everyone is asking so much money for them and they are no longer built or (in reality) supported, so it would be a bit of a gamble.

I could have kept my 203 when I bought my 9000 but my wife wasn't keen on that course of action, especially as I quickly sold the 203 for more than I paid for it (but got nothing like the sums people are asking for them now). It's not like they are getting any younger either....

So this will be interesting.

Anyone else using the Pioneer for the LLDV mod?

“Remember to look up at the stars and not down at your feet. Be curious. And however difficult life may seem, there is always something you can do and succeed at. It matters that you don’t just give up."
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post #784 of 1343 Old 02-13-2020, 06:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Archibald1 View Post
Well, I think I have decided to buy a Pioneer UDP-LX500 for this little venture. You can't force it to output DV but I am only really interested in DV on DV enabled titles anyway. HD/SDR and HD TV already look very good on my 760 and I don't see the need to fu….. um, fiddle, around with those modes personally.

It is pretty expensive player but it is more versatile in its options than the Panny. I can then use the Panny elsewhere.

I was trying to find a good used Oppo 203, but everyone is asking so much money for them and they are no longer built or (in reality) supported, so it would be a bit of a gamble.

I could have kept my 203 when I bought my 9000 but my wife wasn't keen on that course of action, especially as I quickly sold the 203 for more than I paid for it (but got nothing like the sums people are asking for them now). It's not like they are getting any younger either....

So this will be interesting.

Anyone else using the Pioneer for the LLDV mod?
I know, at this point, you are only interested in native DV titles and have no desire to convert SDR Blu rays to DV. Up until a couple weeks ago, I felt the same way.
Then Dominic posted a couple of pictures showing SDR converted to DV and it got me a bit curious, so I picked up a Sony X800M2 specifically for this purpose. Together with Dominic's 1000 nit bright curve and his latest LLDV A1 color profile, even SDR Blur rays converted to DV can look surprisingly good (I posted some pictures a couple of pages back). Since only Sony Players (X700, X800M2) and the now discontinued OPPOs can force the SDR/DV conversion, I would recommend you consider one of the Sony Players as this hack continues to evolve and you may want to have this option down the road. They are a lot less expensive than the Pioneer too
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post #785 of 1343 Old 02-13-2020, 08:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atabea View Post
Here are Dominic's Color Profiles and Custom Gammas:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/attac...2&d=1545487842

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/attac...4&d=1579058859

They contain both Filter and No Filter versions.

Hi can you post the link to upload Dominics profile and custom gammas.. I've never used the projector calibration software before i always used arves tool so I'm freaking out.. I don't want to mess up anything.. Now i can keep javs curve and just upload Dominics profile correct?
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post #786 of 1343 Old 02-13-2020, 08:55 AM
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Originally Posted by per1971 View Post
Can only agree fully !
As a rookie(and coming from Sony Projectors), this works like a charm !!
Tried Dominic Chan´s bright curves and LLDV5 profile yesterday.
Keep up the good work guys !
The new A1 profiles work better than LLDV5:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/465-h...l#post59232278
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post #787 of 1343 Old 02-13-2020, 08:57 AM
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Originally Posted by jorgebetancourt View Post
Hi can you post the link to upload Dominics profile and custom gammas.. I've never used the projector calibration software before i always used arves tool so I'm freaking out.. I don't want to mess up anything.. Now i can keep javs curve and just upload Dominics profile correct?
The links are right in abatea's post that you replied to , although the latest Sony A1 profiles are more accurate:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/465-h...l#post59232278

You can keep Javs curve, although with LLDV you may need a brighter (lower nits) version than with HDR10.
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post #788 of 1343 Old 02-13-2020, 09:03 AM
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Originally Posted by jorgebetancourt View Post
Hi can you post the link to upload Dominics profile and custom gammas.. I've never used the projector calibration software before i always used arves tool so I'm freaking out.. I don't want to mess up anything.. Now i can keep javs curve and just upload Dominics profile correct?
Which model JVC do you own? I have to step out for a couple of hours, will pick up on this again when I get back. Basically, if you can operate Arve's tool you should have no trouble using the JVC autocal software
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post #789 of 1343 Old 02-13-2020, 09:10 AM
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Originally Posted by atabea View Post
Which model JVC do you own? I have to step out for a couple of hours, will pick up on this again when I get back. Basically, if you can operate Arve's tool you should have no trouble using the JVC autocal software
I have the rs640.. I dont mind using autocal i want to learn plus i think i read Dominics profile is for autocal..
Thank you so much..

I also would like to have the projector switch modes when it detects HLG, Dolvi Vision and so on.. I'm dying to do this but i have no clue.. Maybe you can post pictures of your vertex settings for this and I can copy.. But let me upload the profile first and then we can move on to step two..

By the way i already have autocal on my pc and on the network..
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post #790 of 1343 Old 02-13-2020, 09:14 AM
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Originally Posted by claw View Post
I loaded your two new profiles. I am not sure the no-filter version is disengaging the filter. But no matter as the filter version works really well.
The NF version was created using the same chromaticity coordinates as the filter version, only unchecking the "wide gamut" flag. In hind sight this is not quite correct; the coordinates should correspond to the JVC gamut with the filter disengaged. The biggest difference would be in the green.

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I used the default A1 EDID with a 1000 nit Arve curve. I don't see the need to try to lower the target nit value; it would just mean that we might need new custom curves to match.
The 1000 nits Arve curve should work well.

Some people found the LLDV version of movies darker than the HDR10 version. Using a 200 nit EDID would make the two comparable in brightness.

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As an example, the 500 and 350 nit settings in the UB9000 had matching 500 and 350 nit auto-tone mapping profiles/curves in the new JVC projectors. Perhaps those with large screens and are nit starved might benefit from lowering the nit target but I have plenty of brightness.
I have posted two curves that mimic the new 500 and 350 nit curves JVC embedded in the NX projectors.

Quote:
Now some who have been praising the LLDV workaround might be disappointed that your new profile might appear to reduce some color saturation at first look compared to when using the JVC BT2020 color profile. But in reality the result is much more natural looking.

I think that your idea to create a JVC color profile based on the Sony A1 values rather than to try to change the A1 DV string values was a bit of genius.
Credit goes to @bmandra who posted the decoded values of the Sony A1 LLDV VSB. I haven't tried it, but the DCI-P3 profile should work just as well.
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Last edited by Dominic Chan; 02-13-2020 at 09:17 AM.
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post #791 of 1343 Old 02-13-2020, 09:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
The NF version was created using the same chromaticity coordinates as the filter version, only unchecking the "wide gamut" flag. In hind sight this is not quite correct; the coordinates should correspond to the JVC gamut with the filter disengaged. The biggest difference would be in the green.



The 1000 nits Arve curve should work well.

Some people found the LLDV version of movies darker than the HDR10 version. Using a 200 nit EDID would make the two comparable in brightness.



I have posted two curves that mimic the new 500 and 350 nit curves JVC embedded in the NX projectors.



Credit goes to @bmandra who posted the decoded values of the Sony A1 LLDV VSB. I haven't tried it, but the DCI-P3 profile should work just as well.
Does anyone know of a way to somehow convert these JVC curves for use in a Sony PJ?

Also, I think I may have found the reason for the issue I had when testing the modified DV blocks last night, so I’ve created some new EDIDs to test with tonight. With any luck I’ll be able to have the player map to the peak RGB of my projectors HDR calibration.
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post #792 of 1343 Old 02-13-2020, 09:54 AM
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Originally Posted by bmandra View Post
Does anyone know of a way to somehow convert these JVC curves for use in a Sony PJ?

Also, I think I may have found the reason for the issue I had when testing the modified DV blocks last night, so I’ve created some new EDIDs to test with tonight. With any luck I’ll be able to have the player map to the peak RGB of my projectors HDR calibration.
Someone ported Arve’s Tool to work with Sony projectors, but for some reason withdrew it:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-di...ools-sony.html
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post #793 of 1343 Old 02-13-2020, 10:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
The new A1 profiles work better than LLDV5:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/465-h...l#post59232278
Tested that today, and its ever better !
But, one thing: Filter or No filter version ?
I now have the No filter version.
What is the difference ?
Sorry about the low-level questions...
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post #794 of 1343 Old 02-13-2020, 10:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
Someone ported Arve’s Tool to work with Sony projectors, but for some reason withdrew it:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-di...ools-sony.html
this is an interesting story, reading through the threads on hifi forum, it looks like some dealers were using the tool commercially and the developer removed the code then ghosted from the forum afterwards.

http://www.hifi-forum.de/viewthread-94-15191.html
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post #795 of 1343 Old 02-13-2020, 10:59 AM
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Originally Posted by jorgebetancourt View Post
I have the rs640.. I dont mind using autocal i want to learn plus i think i read Dominics profile is for autocal..
Thank you so much..

I also would like to have the projector switch modes when it detects HLG, Dolvi Vision and so on.. I'm dying to do this but i have no clue.. Maybe you can post pictures of your vertex settings for this and I can copy.. But let me upload the profile first and then we can move on to step two..

By the way i already have autocal on my pc and on the network..
JVC has some good instructions for importing a color profile...

https://www3.jvckenwood.com/english/...e_en_v1_00.pdf

I loaded the two A1 profiles to User 5 and User 6.

I have my RS500 permanently connected to my network switch, and my laptop with Autocal is connected to the network via WiFi. Each time you open Autocal, you should reenter the JVC IP address in settings since if you use DHCP the IP address changes frequently. Go to the network menu item on the JVC to determine its current IP address.

I created an LLDV custom user mode that has the exact settings as my HDR user mode, including the custom Arve curve, except that I change the color profile from BT2020 to the new LLDV_A1F profile after loading it.
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Last edited by claw; 02-13-2020 at 11:09 AM.
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post #796 of 1343 Old 02-13-2020, 11:12 AM
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Originally Posted by claw View Post
JVC has some good instructions for importing a color profile...

https://www3.jvckenwood.com/english/...e_en_v1_00.pdf

I loaded the two A1 profiles to User 5 and User 6.

I have my RS500 permanently connected to my network switch, and my laptop with Autocal is connected to the network via WiFi. Each time you open Autocal, you should reenter the JVC IP address in settings since if you use DHCP the IP address changes frequently. Go to the network menu item on the JVC to determine its current IP address.
Ok that looks simple.. What about if i want to upload Dominics curves which one is the most common one to use.. My screen is 125 pitch black room projector is 17ft away from a 1.1 gain screen.. Would i use autocal as well to upload the curve? Do the curves get saved over javs 1000 and 4000 nit curves? I have the v3 version..

By the way i love this freaking hack.. best thing since slice bread.. I use it for everything now and nothing will get me back to a static curve...
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post #797 of 1343 Old 02-13-2020, 11:37 AM
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Originally Posted by jorgebetancourt View Post
Ok that looks simple.. What about if i want to upload Dominics curves which one is the most common one to use.. My screen is 125 pitch black room projector is 17ft away from a 1.1 gain screen.. Would i use autocal as well to upload the curve? Do the curves get saved over javs 1000 and 4000 nit curves? I have the v3 version..

By the way i love this freaking hack.. best thing since slice bread.. I use it for everything now and nothing will get me back to a static curve...
You are still using a static curve; the custom Javs curves you have loaded now. That doesn't change.

Because there are only 3 custom curve slots and you already have two of Javs curves loaded, I would suggest to stick with them until you get all up and running. The v3 versions of Javs curves are quite good; both the jvc_gamma_1200nitv3 and jvc_gamma_4000nitv3 curves. They are definitely bright curves as I think he targeted 80 nits with them. Because we think the A1 LLDV tone mapping process is targeting 1000 nits, the 1200 v3 curve might be a good one to start with. Later on you can use the custom curve slot 3 to try one of Dominic's curves if you are not already using all three slots.

Also, in case you didn't notice, I updated my post to reflect that my LLDV custom user mode is just like my HDR10 user mode except that I replaced the BT2020 color profile with the LLDV_A1F profile from Dominic.
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Last edited by claw; 02-13-2020 at 11:41 AM.
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Originally Posted by claw View Post
You are still using a static curve; the custom Javs curves you have loaded now. That doesn't change.

Because there are only 3 custom curve slots and you already have two of Javs curves loaded, I would suggest to stick with them until you get all up and running. The v3 versions of Javs curves are quite good; both the jvc_gamma_1200nitv3 and jvc_gamma_4000nitv3 curves. They are definitely bright curves as I think he targeted 80 nits with them. Because we think the A1 LLDV tone mapping process is targeting 1000 nits, the 1200 v3 curve might be a good one to start with. Later on you can use the custom curve slot 3 to try one of Dominic's curves if you are not already using all three slots.

Also, in case you didn't notice, I updated my post to reflect that my LLDV custom user mode is just like my HDR10 user mode except that I replaceed the BT2020 color profile with the LLDV_A1F profile from Dominic.

Perfecto!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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post #799 of 1343 Old 02-13-2020, 12:03 PM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
this is an interesting story, reading through the threads on hifi forum, it looks like some dealers were using the tool commercially and the developer removed the code then ghosted from the forum afterwards.

http://www.hifi-forum.de/viewthread-94-15191.html
Seemed a bit over-protective of a tool that he himself modified from the original Arve tool. I don't hear of Arve having any issue with professional calibrators using his tool. Does this guy think he should be making money off of Arve's work?
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Originally Posted by bmandra View Post
I think it has to do with automix having to remove bits from the original EDID to make the dv block fit. Have to test more to be sure though.
Well, I tried bypassing my AVR (Marantz SR6011) and directly connecting the ATV to the Vertex 2. Once I did that, I had no problems getting 4k DV from the ATV with any of the custom strings I tried.
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post #801 of 1343 Old 02-13-2020, 12:20 PM
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Originally Posted by per1971 View Post
Tested that today, and its ever better !
But, one thing: Filter or No filter version ?
I now have the No filter version.
What is the difference ?
Sorry about the low-level questions...
The NF version was meant for projectors without the P3 filter. However, the filter version works just as well, as long as you don't use it for autocal.
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post #802 of 1343 Old 02-13-2020, 01:38 PM
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@jorgebetancourt I see that Claw has outlined the process to load the curves and color profiles and I am glad that he did---as I could not have said it any better. All the stuff I learned on these projector/calibration forums are from guys like Claw, Dominic, Zombie, Manni and Javs (might have missed a couple names). Through their contributions, we are able to extend the life of our older (400/500/600 series) PJs. And now, bmandra has opened the door to even more possibilities by figuring out the values of the Sony A1 LLDV VSB. I am sure the usual suspects; @Dominic Chan , @claw , @zombie10k and now @bmandra , will take this neat little hack to the next level. I am just thrilled I can go along for the ride.
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Originally Posted by atabea View Post
@jorgebetancourt I see that Claw has outlined the process to load the curves and color profiles and I am glad that he did---as I could not have said it any better. All the stuff I learned on these projector/calibration forums are from guys like Claw, Dominic, Zombie, Manni and Javs (might have missed a couple names). Through their contributions, we are able to extend the life of our older (400/500/600 series) PJs. And now, bmandra has opened the door to even more possibilities by figuring out the values of the Sony A1 LLDV VSB. I am sure the usual suspects; @Dominic Chan , @claw , @zombie10k and now @bmandra , will take this neat little hack to the next level. I am just thrilled I can go along for the ride.
Yes thank you.. I'm sticking around for the ride.. Can't wait..

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post #804 of 1343 Old 02-13-2020, 02:20 PM
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I think I have the calculation to/from nits for the Dolby VSB figured out. If anyone has access to displays that actually support LLDV and could capture and post there strings it would be helpful. I believe the calculation is tmax * 50 + 100, which would put the A1 string at 900 nits. So changing the string to “eb:01:46:d0:00:45:03:28:86:60:76:8f” should be 350nits.

I have about a dozen custom EDIDs to test on my setup tonight to see how far we can go with changing the nits and colorimetry values using either DV v1 or v2 strings. The v1 values are a real pain to calculate so I’m hopeful we can use the v2 ones instead.

On my Sony PJ although I can import curves it doesn’t support uploading of color profiles (although the profiles can be manually adjusted) which I guess means I have to either successfully edit the DV block to match primaries for my HDR calibration or have a new calibration done specifically for LLDV. I think that for the JVC guys just using the A1 color profile Dominic posted should be a good solution. If changing the nits via the string works well then JVC guys are likely all set.

I sent a code sample to HD Fury today on how to decode the Dolby VSB and they said it will be incorporated into a future release for Diva, Maestro, Vertex 2. They are going to see if the devs can do anything on the Integral 2, but memory on that device is pretty limited at this point.
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post #805 of 1343 Old 02-13-2020, 02:39 PM
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Originally Posted by bmandra View Post
I think that for the JVC guys just using the A1 color profile Dominic posted should be a good solution. If changing the nits via the string works well then JVC guys are likely all set.

I sent a code sample to HD Fury today on how to decode the Dolby VSB and they said it will be incorporated into a future release for Diva, Maestro, Vertex 2. They are going to see if the devs can do anything on the Integral 2, but memory on that device is pretty limited at this point.
Yes, Dominic's A1 profile along with a nice 1000 nit gamma curve works extremely well!!

If the HDfury guys are on board with assisting to decode the dolby VSB, and they could somehow automate such process, then THAT could be an endgame. It would be in their interest too as a lot of folks would want to grab a Vertex2/Maestro/Diva as opposed to one of those 6-10 thousand $$$ VPs.
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post #806 of 1343 Old 02-13-2020, 02:47 PM
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Originally Posted by bmandra View Post
I think I have the calculation to/from nits for the Dolby VSB figured out. If anyone has access to displays that actually support LLDV and could capture and post there strings it would be helpful. I believe the calculation is tmax * 50 + 100, which would put the A1 string at 900 nits. So changing the string to “eb:01:46:d0:00:45:03:28:86:60:76:8f” should be 350nits.
@AndreNewman said he sniffed the EDID of a number of Dolby Vision TVs. Not sure how many of those are LLDV:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/465-h...l#post59238688
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post #807 of 1343 Old 02-13-2020, 03:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
@AndreNewman said he sniffed the EDID of a number of Dolby Vision TVs. Not sure how many of those are LLDV:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/465-h...l#post59238688
I have a Sony 940E which is supposed to be a LLDV TV. How does one go about "sniffing" out the EDID?
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post #808 of 1343 Old 02-13-2020, 03:25 PM
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Originally Posted by atabea View Post
I have a Sony 940E which is supposed to be a LLDV TV. How does one go about "sniffing" out the EDID?
Just hook up HD Fury device to it and download and save the EDID. On the smaller HD Fury devices like the Integral 2 just hooking it up and navigating to the DV tab in the Windows GUI should show the DV string.
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post #809 of 1343 Old 02-13-2020, 03:28 PM
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Originally Posted by bmandra View Post
Just hook up HD Fury device to it and download and save the EDID. On the smaller HD Fury devices like the Integral 2 just hooking it up and navigating to the DV tab in the Windows GUI should show the DV string.
okay, i will give a go
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post #810 of 1343 Old 02-13-2020, 04:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bmandra View Post
I think I have the calculation to/from nits for the Dolby VSB figured out. If anyone has access to displays that actually support LLDV and could capture and post there strings it would be helpful. I believe the calculation is tmax * 50 + 100, which would put the A1 string at 900 nits. So changing the string to “eb:01:46:d0:00:45:03:28:86:60:76:8f” should be 350nits.

I have about a dozen custom EDIDs to test on my setup tonight to see how far we can go with changing the nits and colorimetry values using either DV v1 or v2 strings. The v1 values are a real pain to calculate so I’m hopeful we can use the v2 ones instead.

On my Sony PJ although I can import curves it doesn’t support uploading of color profiles (although the profiles can be manually adjusted) which I guess means I have to either successfully edit the DV block to match primaries for my HDR calibration or have a new calibration done specifically for LLDV. I think that for the JVC guys just using the A1 color profile Dominic posted should be a good solution. If changing the nits via the string works well then JVC guys are likely all set.

I sent a code sample to HD Fury today on how to decode the Dolby VSB and they said it will be incorporated into a future release for Diva, Maestro, Vertex 2. They are going to see if the devs can do anything on the Integral 2, but memory on that device is pretty limited at this point.
I don't think there are any TV other than Sony that will actually report LLDV capability.

I have attached the DV tab from a Vertex connected to my LG B7A. The B7A will accept LLDV output from my Oppo configured to output Player Led DV and it will report receiving Dolby Vision, but the Oppo will always default to TV led to my B7A.

The Vertex was configured to Automix mode.

Captured DV metadata block:
eb:01:46:d0:00:26:0a:09:75:80:5b:6c

Dolby Vision Version:1 DM Version:1
Capabilities: [2160p60]: YES
Capabilities: [YUV422 12bit]: NO
Capabilities: [Global Dimming]: NO
Target Max Luminance: 350 nits
Target Min Luminance: 0.063 nits

The NO to 422 12bit would seem to me to indicate that it does not report support for LLDV, even though will accept the LLDV 4K 4:2:2 12-bit signal and recognize it as DV.
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CJ
JVC RS500 | LG B7A OLED | Denon X6400H/X4200W | Panasonic UB820 | Two Oppo 203 | Samsung K8500 | Apple TV 4K | HDfury Diva/Vertex/Linker/Integral | MadVR with EVGA RTX-2080 Ti

Last edited by claw; 02-13-2020 at 05:17 PM.
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