Dolby Vision, including HDR10 conversion w/ DTM on Projectors? - Page 3 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #61 of 155 Old 11-08-2019, 09:03 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by KarlKlammer View Post
The Integral has an issue with sound in this setup. With Integral 2 and Linker(!) I get picture and sound. The X800M2 info screen is identical regardless of which HDfury is in the chain. The Integral 2 OSD shows 12bit DV. So I guess it is working.
The top line of your Integral2 read out saying DV 12bit, shows it's working!

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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
That’s great news! I use ATV a lot and many DV shows are very dark. What settings do you use on the Linker to make this work?
The linker can not do the needed DV LLDV EDID. The HDFury devices that support the Sony A1 LLDV EDID are, Vertex, Integral2 (basically a Vertex), Vertex2, Diva and Maestro. I'd note the Vertex2, Diva and Maestro benefit from more robust LLDV features, which I have not been able to test, but sound like they might be worth the extra $$$ if planning to use LLDV support for the longer run or as part of a more elaborate HT automation configuration.
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post #62 of 155 Old 11-08-2019, 09:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
That’s great news! I use ATV a lot and many DV shows are very dark. What settings do you use on the Linker to make this work?
After doing a factory reset, I uploaded the LG C8 EDID into the custom memory. That was basically all.
I also tried the Sony A1 custom EDID, which I exported from the Integral 2. That also worked.

But my Linker never functioned stable. After a few HDMI handshakes, I have to reset it. So if I decide, I want to have LLDV, I have to use another HDfury.
I'm still not quite sure, how to integrate this into my setup. Although using the HDR10 static preset on my NX9 and selecting it manually may work, Frame Adapt or the Radiance DTM would be my favourite way. But for that I would need the HDR flag. Surely, I can force it via HDfury. But then it will always be sent. I think an option like 'Use custom HDR ... when input is LLDV' on the newer HDfurys would be useful for this.

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post #63 of 155 Old 11-08-2019, 09:36 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KarlKlammer View Post
I'm still not quite sure, how to integrate this into my setup. Although using the HDR10 static preset on my NX9 and selecting it manually may work, Frame Adapt or the Radiance DTM would be my favourite way. But for that I would need the HDR flag. Surely, I can force it via HDfury. But then it will always be sent. I think an option like 'Use custom HDR ... when input is LLDV' on the newer HDfurys would be useful for this.
This is a good example of an extra LLDV support feature that comes with the Vertex2, Diva and Maestro, but cant be added to the older devices due to memory limitations.

You probably already have this link, but incase not ... HDFury Thread - Last Post

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post #64 of 155 Old 11-08-2019, 09:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Bytehoven View Post
This is a good example of an extra LLDV support feature that comes with the Vertex2, Diva and Maestro, but cant be added to the older devices due to memory limitations.

You probably already have this link, but incase not ... HDFury Thread - Last Post
Thank you. I will probably return the Integral 2 and order a Vertex 2. Then I should be safe if there could/would be such an LLDV support.
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post #65 of 155 Old 11-08-2019, 11:39 AM
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I thought the Integral2 was one of the newer devices. Same as Vertex but without the OLED display?
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post #66 of 155 Old 11-08-2019, 11:51 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by DMILANI View Post
I thought the Integral2 was one of the newer devices. Same as Vertex but without the OLED display?
That is my understanding.

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post #67 of 155 Old 11-08-2019, 02:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Bytehoven on AVS:
The DV LLDV hack is limited to source devices that support LLDV, which I listed as I understand them to be. Since the ub9000 can not be forced to do LLDV, hang tight.
Dave saw and replied

Quote:
Originally Posted by HarperVision...

I don’t believe this is entirely true. On UHD Dolby Vision capable players that do not have the capability to force Dolby Vision processing on the output like the Sony and Oppo do, then those will still be able to send out a native player led Dolby Vision signal (LLDV) source to the vertex, as long as they’ve received the proper firmware updates to do so. The only difference is that on the players that you can force Dolby Vision processing then you can also convert HDR10 sources to Dolby Vision as well.

So you can still add native DolbyVision support to a projector or display that technically doesn’t support it and only supports HDR10. You would just have to continue to use your current HDR10 solution for those sources.

Of course if it were me just starting out with this, I would just at a minimum invest in a Sony X700 which can force DV and will be at amazing Black Friday pricing in the USA. That’s the Sony I have here for testing against the Oppo 203 and it’s simply amazing. NFL football and Venom last night were utterly jaw dropping!!!
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post #68 of 155 Old 11-08-2019, 02:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bytehoven View Post
Dave saw and replied
I don’t understand this. If the player does not “do” LLDV and simply passes it through to the downstream devices (which also don’t do LLDV), then who is doing the required scene-by-scene processing?

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post #69 of 155 Old 11-08-2019, 02:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DMILANI View Post
I thought the Integral2 was one of the newer devices. Same as Vertex but without the OLED display?
My understanding is that it’s the same as Vertex without the OLED, but not the same as the Vertex2.
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post #70 of 155 Old 11-08-2019, 02:36 PM
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Agree, but what does the Vertex2 have that is needed above and beyond the Integral2 for doing LLDV?
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post #71 of 155 Old 11-08-2019, 02:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
I don’t understand this. If the player does not “do” LLDV and simply passes it through to the downstream devices (which also don’t do LLDV), then who is doing the required scene-by-scene processing?
OK, I just did a quick test with the UB820 so pardon the pic quality.

Here is Captain Marvel a non DV title.


Here is Ready Player 1 a DV title.


You can see the 820 is sending a HDR signal with Captain Marvel and a DV signal with ready Player 1. Clearly the ub820 is doing something different with the DV mastered title.

I need to compare RP1 via the UB820 vs the x800m2 to see if there are any differences, to make sure the Vertex is not labeling the RP1 output as DV when it might be HDR.
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post #72 of 155 Old 11-08-2019, 05:38 PM
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RS520 ST2084 vs PQ Curve

I have done some measurements of the JVC ST2084 Curve on my RS520, and compared the response to the standard PQ curve. The values are normalized relative to the 50% stimulus (reference white).

Here are some observations:

1. The shadows are very dark - only about 40% of the reference value. at 10% stimulus.
2. Boosting the WRGB Dark Levels to +7 [EDIT: It was +10] greatly exceeds the reference shadow level.
3. The Contrast control lifts the entire curve up, resulting in clipping at a lower level (although still above 1000 nits, at +7 contrast)
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post #73 of 155 Old 11-08-2019, 06:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
I have done some measurements of the JVC ST2084 Curve on my RS520, and compared the response to the standard PQ curve. The values are normalized relative to the 50% stimulus (reference white).

Here are some observations:

1. The shadows are very dark - only about 40% of the reference value. at 10% stimulus.
2. Boosting the WRGB Dark Levels to +7 greatly exceeds the reference shadow level.
3. The Contrast control lifts the entire curve up, resulting in clipping at a lower level (although still above 1000 nits, at +7 contrast)
Thanks for this info.

Dominic... what is your source setup? Which player? I'm not sure if it matters, but I'm curious is you might be able to see and measure inherent differences between the 203 and one of the Sony players?

Can you find a combination of WRGB DL which works better? +7 on WRGB would be pretty dramatic. How about +4/+5 all around?

I'm also curious how a well tuned curve while increasing Contrast, could work to better iron issues on both ends? I thought Zombie did this, but he was not specific.

Or what keeping Contrast closer to = 0 and playing with st2084 Picture Tone & BL values instead?

Can you determine what, if any range luminance compression LLDV might be doing, such that any peak white values mastered above MaxCLL of 1000 nits, are being mapped down?

I need to revisit some of Javs work on his HDR mapping, for the movie time stamps, to look for highlight clipping.

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post #74 of 155 Old 11-08-2019, 06:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Bytehoven View Post
Thanks for this info.

Dominic... what is your source setup? Which player? I'm not sure if it matters, but I'm curious is you might be able to see and measure inherent differences between the 203 and one of the Sony players?
I should have clarified that the measurements were done with HCFR internal test patterns, not an LLDV source. However, my understanding is that they all follow the PQ curve.

Quote:
Can you find a combination of WRGB DL which works better? +7 on WRGB would be pretty dramatic. How about +4/+5 all around?
+7 on white alone (without RGB) already boosts the shadows to 150%.

Note that DL actually affects a very wide band, raising even the reference white level.
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Last edited by Dominic Chan; 11-08-2019 at 06:38 PM.
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post #75 of 155 Old 11-09-2019, 12:09 AM - Thread Starter
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Results are in...

The x800m2 does a better job with DV LLD DTM on a DV title than the ub820.

Test was Ready Player One. The advantage was the x800m2 preserved more specular highlights, while maintaining similar peak white lumens, which at the same settings on the x990, the ub820 was crushing highlights in a way that even lowering the x990 master contrast could not resolve.

Reds were also a tad more saturated on the ub820.

I used Chads curve for both playbacks.

Not sure why the ub820 would be treating the upper luminance range differently, except that maybe its not as well tuned a LLDV mode as the Sony, which is designed to do so.

Sorry to have a sad report, but it does simplify the question regarding DV mastered titles playback.

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post #76 of 155 Old 11-09-2019, 01:31 AM
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I wonder, how the nVidia Shield TV Pro (2019) handles LLDV - if it handles LLDV at all...
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post #77 of 155 Old 11-09-2019, 07:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobof
This Vendor specific Video Data CEA Timing Extension in the EDID is I'm almost certain where all the Dolby Vision capabilities are stored (0x00D046 is Dolby's IEEE OUI). Understanding the makeup of this extension might open up interesting experimentation possibilities, perhaps allowing the display peak nits being targeted by LLDV to be edited. Does anyone have a good collection of all available LLDV EDIDs? By comparing the content of this block across different displays we may be able to glean useful information, or at least be able to target certain bits / bytes for experimentation.
@bobof

I compared the Dolby block of all custom EDID memories of the Integral 2. They are identical.
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post #78 of 155 Old 11-09-2019, 08:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KarlKlammer View Post
@bobof

I compared the Dolby block of all custom EDID memories of the Integral 2. They are identical.
What is most interesting I guess is to compare real DV TV EDIDs to see what the blocks look like, see if they are reporting different max luminance. Then hacking the EDID to make a custom low luminance, then measuring before and after with some DV test charts to see if the LLDV tone mapping behaviour changes.
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post #79 of 155 Old 11-09-2019, 01:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Bytehoven View Post
This is a good example of an extra LLDV support feature that comes with the Vertex2, Diva and Maestro, but cant be added to the older devices due to memory limitations.
It's already implemented. Nice!
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post #80 of 155 Old 11-09-2019, 01:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DMILANI View Post
I thought the Integral2 was one of the newer devices. Same as Vertex but without the OLED display?
Just saw a post from HDfury that the Integral2 has the same memory size as the original Integral and Vertex. Those devices have no more memory available for HDfury to add new features. So take that into consideration.

New generation of HDfury devices:

Vertex2 with two full time 4K60 600MHz HDMI outputs plus one Audio only HDMI output to connect to AVRs that don't support either 4K, HDR10, or DV pass though.

Diva with one 4K60 600MHz HDMI output and one 1080P HDMI output that supports 4K HDR10 to 1080P SDR conversion.

Maestro which is an HDBaseT solution.

Vertex2 would seem the best option for most.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
I don’t understand this. If the player does not “do” LLDV and simply passes it through to the downstream devices (which also don’t do LLDV), then who is doing the required scene-by-scene processing?
The Dolby Vision TV does if the player cannot output LLDV.

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post #82 of 155 Old 11-09-2019, 01:28 PM
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I have been watching the new Apple TV+ shows from my ATV4K with the LG C8 LLDV EDID configured in my Diva or Vertex. I loaded the EDID to the Vertex as it is not a predefined EDID.

The Morning Show and Dickenson shows are both 4K60 Dolby Vision. They look pretty incredible when sending LLDV to my JVC RS500 with custom Arve HDR curve.
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post #83 of 155 Old 11-09-2019, 01:31 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by claw View Post
I have been watching the new Apple TV+ shows from my ATV4K with the LG C8 LLDV EDID configured in my Diva or Vertex. I loaded the EDID to the Vertex as it is not a predefined EDID.

The Morning Show and Dickenson shows are both 4K60 Dolby Vision. They look pretty incredible when sending LLDV to my JVC RS500 with custom Arve HDR curve.
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Originally Posted by claw View Post
The Dolby Vision TV does if the player cannot output LLDV.
I understand that, but in the context of the discussion my understanding is that neither the player nor the display (projector) can do that, only the vertex was sending a spoofed EDID.
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post #85 of 155 Old 11-09-2019, 01:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KarlKlammer View Post
After doing a factory reset, I uploaded the LG C8 EDID into the custom memory. That was basically all.
I also tried the Sony A1 custom EDID, which I exported from the Integral 2. That also worked.

But my Linker never functioned stable. After a few HDMI handshakes, I have to reset it. So if I decide, I want to have LLDV, I have to use another HDfury.
I'm still not quite sure, how to integrate this into my setup. Although using the HDR10 static preset on my NX9 and selecting it manually may work, Frame Adapt or the Radiance DTM would be my favourite way. But for that I would need the HDR flag. Surely, I can force it via HDfury. But then it will always be sent. I think an option like 'Use custom HDR ... when input is LLDV' on the newer HDfurys would be useful for this.
I expect that if you want your JVC to automatically recognize the LLDV as HDR, you would likely have to inject custom HDR metadata with the HDfury device.

But the JVC DTM when in Auto will choose Low, Medium, or High based on the HDR metadata values I believe. Since you are hard coding the metadata values in the HDfury, the JVC DTM will always use the same setting based on that metadata you inject.

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Originally Posted by claw View Post
I have been watching the new Apple TV+ shows from my ATV4K with the LG C8 LLDV EDID configured in my Diva or Vertex. I loaded the EDID to the Vertex as it is not a predefined EDID.

The Morning Show and Dickenson shows are both 4K60 Dolby Vision. They look pretty incredible when sending LLDV to my JVC RS500 with custom Arve HDR curve.
So the only thing I need for my RS520 is a Vertex (or later) and load the LG C8 EDID?
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post #87 of 155 Old 11-09-2019, 01:42 PM
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I understand that, but in the context of the discussion my understanding is that neither the player nor the display (projector) can do that, only the vertex was sending a spoofed EDID.
Correct. The HDfury EDID just tells the player that it is connected to either a Sony TV that only supports LLDV, or an LG TV that prefers to receive LLDV instead of full Dolby Vision.

The HDfury can't make a player output LLDV if it is incapable of doing so without an HDfury device when connected to a Sony TV. Players that support LLDV output recognize when they are connected to a Sony TV and automatically send LLDV.

So you must use one of the players that already support LLDV output to either Sony or LG TVs, and use the HDfury to convince the player that is is indeed connected to an LLDV required TV.

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post #88 of 155 Old 11-09-2019, 01:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
So the only thing I need for my RS520 is a Vertex (or later) and load the LG C8 EDID?
Yes either the LG LLDV EDID or the Sony LLDV EDID. And of course that you use a player that is capable of sending LLDV.

If you don't inject HDR metadata you would need to manually select an HDR10 picture mode in your RS520.

I don't inject metadata for my RS500 since it would switch to the broken Gamma D and disable the Dynamic Iris. I don't know if the RS520 does the same.

I asked HDfury if they could add a new JVC Macro that would be triggered on LLDV input. That way I could have the HDfury device send the RS-232 command to select my preferred custom curve. If others do the same, they might add the macro in the Vertex2, Diva, and Maestro.

The issue is that the HDfury devices don't allow you to both inject HDR metadata and mark the Disable HDR checkbox. That checkbox is what keeps the JVC from switching to the internal HDR gamma and disabling the DI.

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post #89 of 155 Old 11-09-2019, 01:58 PM
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Originally Posted by claw View Post
Yes either the LG LLDV EDID or the Sony LLDV EDID. And of course that you use a player that is capable of sending LLDV.
My players are the ATV4K and the UB820. So the Integral2 seems to be the cheapest way, if I don’t worry about future expandability?

Quote:
If you don't inject HDR metadata you would need to manually select an HDR10 picture mode in your RS520.

I don't inject metadata for my RS500 since it would switch to the broken Gamma D and disable the Dynamic Iris. I don't know if the RS520 does the same.
The RS520 switches to the HDR Picture Mode instead of just switching the gamma.
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post #90 of 155 Old 11-09-2019, 02:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
My players are the ATV4K and the UB820. So the Integral2 seems to be the cheapest way, if I don’t worry about future expandability?

The RS520 switches to the HDR Picture Mode instead of just switching the gamma.
I tried the Sony LLDV with the ub820, and I noted some issues. It only works with DV content, but even then, the content I checked so far suffers from some highlight crush, that the Sony x800m2 does not. Highlight crush which can not be adjusted on the ub820 because picture controls are disabled, and master contrast on the x990 did not restore some of the crush.

Vertex and Integral 2 are basically the same, and limited. If buying used, maybe a good deal at a good proce. If buying new, the Vertex2 is the recommended choice to to future proof any new features HDFury may bring.

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Last edited by Bytehoven; 11-09-2019 at 02:53 PM.
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