Dolby Vision, including HDR10 conversion w/ DTM on Projectors? - Page 32 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #931 of 2235 Old 02-24-2020, 09:31 AM
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I've asked about this a bit before, but would like a bit more info:

I would like to try, for fun, going from my Oppo 203 (I also have a Sony X800M2) outputting Dolby Vision (for SDR blu-ray discs) to my Lumagen Radiance and have the Lumagen think it's getting HDR so it'll apply dynamic tone mapping. Two questions:

1) What is the minimum device I would need? HDFury Vertex 4K? Or does this workflow necessitate the 4K Vertex2 (I tried seeing the diffs on their website and it wasn't clear).

2) Do I have to do anything special with color profiles or any of that since I'm letting the Lumagen do DTM? Can I just load a basic profile into the Vertex?

3) Am I being silly for trying this? Will regular blu-rays converted to Dolby Vision be compelling enough, given my setup?

Thanks,

Chris


Theater 1: LG OLED55E6P, Oppo UDP-203, Apple TV 4K, Dune HD Solo 4K
Theater 2: Sony VPL-VW885ES, Seymour Premier 16:9 128", Lumagen 4242, Oppo 103D (CFW) & 203, Apple TV 4K, Sony MDR-DS7500 Wireless Surround Headphones & Denon AVR-X6500H (7.2.4)
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post #932 of 2235 Old 02-24-2020, 09:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fatherom View Post
I've asked about this a bit before, but would like a bit more info:

I would like to try, for fun, going from my Oppo 203 (I also have a Sony X800M2) outputting Dolby Vision (for SDR blu-ray discs) to my Lumagen Radiance and have the Lumagen think it's getting HDR so it'll apply dynamic tone mapping. Two questions:

1) What is the minimum device I would need? HDFury Vertex 4K? Or does this workflow necessitate the 4K Vertex2 (I tried seeing the diffs on their website and it wasn't clear).

2) Do I have to do anything special with color profiles or any of that since I'm letting the Lumagen do DTM? Can I just load a basic profile into the Vertex?

3) Am I being silly for trying this? Will regular blu-rays converted to Dolby Vision be compelling enough, given my setup?

Thanks,

Chris
The Sony X800M2 does a good job emulating HDR from SDR source; the ATV4K seems to simply place the SDR inside HDR container and it doesn’t look anything different than SDR. I’m not sure how the OPPO handles the conversion.

Even a Linker will work for this “hack”.
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post #933 of 2235 Old 02-24-2020, 10:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by claw View Post
The only LLDV use that I can think of that could benefit you would be for the HDfury device to fool the Lumagen to think it is getting HDR10 so that it can perform tone mapping on it. I would only do this for streaming service sources like the ATV4K where so much of the content is stored as Dolby Vision only. For streaming sources that are HDR10, it would make little sense to me to convert it to LLDV and fake the Lumagen into thinking it was HDR10 so it could tone map it. For Blu-Ray and UHD Blu-Ray, you already have a better solution in the Lumagen than with LLDV.
I would love to try converting regular blu-ray content to Dolby Vision and see if the Lumagen could apply DTM to it. Claw (or others), would you be able to assist me in trying this out?

Thanks,

Chris


Theater 1: LG OLED55E6P, Oppo UDP-203, Apple TV 4K, Dune HD Solo 4K
Theater 2: Sony VPL-VW885ES, Seymour Premier 16:9 128", Lumagen 4242, Oppo 103D (CFW) & 203, Apple TV 4K, Sony MDR-DS7500 Wireless Surround Headphones & Denon AVR-X6500H (7.2.4)
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post #934 of 2235 Old 02-24-2020, 11:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavCap78 View Post
I tested with my Oppo 203 and it doesn’t convert MKV (from SMB) to Dolby LLDV.
Did someone else try it?
My vertex2 still display HDR (config on Oppo: hdr set to Dolby Vision + player LED).
I don't have any MKVs, but tonight I will confirm that it works (or doesn't) with full folder backups.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by claw View Post
Manni's post in the 2015 JVC calibration thread that contains a zip file with Dolby Cinema Emulation curves and an HLG curve.



https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-di...l#post55408090



This is not an Arve curve. You use AccuCal to load the HLG curve to an open custom slot in the JVC.





What this 4K, 1080i, or 720p from Directv?



Some of the 4K channels have content in 24p while other content is 60p. The 1080i and 720p channels should be SDR REC709 60p unless something has changed since I discontinued service. Why would you have separate user modes for SDR REC709 24p vs 60p? I would just set the same user mode in both macros.
Hi Claw just to double check.. this is correct?



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post #936 of 2235 Old 02-24-2020, 11:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fatherom View Post
I've asked about this a bit before, but would like a bit more info:

I would like to try, for fun, going from my Oppo 203 (I also have a Sony X800M2) outputting Dolby Vision (for SDR blu-ray discs) to my Lumagen Radiance and have the Lumagen think it's getting HDR so it'll apply dynamic tone mapping. Two questions:

1) What is the minimum device I would need? HDFury Vertex 4K? Or does this workflow necessitate the 4K Vertex2 (I tried seeing the diffs on their website and it wasn't clear).

2) Do I have to do anything special with color profiles or any of that since I'm letting the Lumagen do DTM? Can I just load a basic profile into the Vertex?

3) Am I being silly for trying this? Will regular blu-rays converted to Dolby Vision be compelling enough, given my setup?

Thanks,

Chris
Quote:
Originally Posted by fatherom View Post
I would love to try converting regular blu-ray content to Dolby Vision and see if the Lumagen could apply DTM to it. Claw (or others), would you be able to assist me in trying this out?

Thanks,

Chris
For your Lumagen to perform dynamic tone mapping, you will need an HDfury device positioned before the Lumagen, and configure the HDfury to send custom HDR metadata with the LLDV output. The Lumagen will see the HDR custom metadata and should perform DTM on the content as if it was real HDR10. Because you would only want to send the custom metadata for LLDV and not for real HDR10, you should consider the Vertex 2 or Diva that have options to specify when to send HDR metadata. The earlier devices will either send custom metadata or not send, so you would have to turn ON the setting for LLDV and OFF for HDR10.

I would suggest that you use Mark's EDID in the HDfury since it is targeting BT2020 color profile and that might be better for the Lumagen DTM:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/465-h...l#post59252502

As for the custom metadata values you send, I don't know what you currently do in the Lumagen. Does it use the metadata values as received? Does it use configured values? What does it do where the metadata values are zero? You might have to experiment with the values sent for MaxDML, MinDML, MaxCLL, and MaxFALL.

Disclaimer: This is all hypothetical as I don't have a Lumagen.


I don't send LLDV for either HDR10 or SDR disc content. I use MadVR. But the idea is the same. Have the Oppo convert to Dolby Vision and output as LLDV, and the HDfury add custom HDR10 metadata.
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Last edited by claw; 02-24-2020 at 11:44 AM.
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post #937 of 2235 Old 02-24-2020, 11:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jorgebetancourt View Post
Hi Claw just to double check.. this is correct?
Yes, there should be a single file in the HLG folder that you upload to an open custom gamma slot on your JVC using AccuCal.
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post #938 of 2235 Old 02-24-2020, 11:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by claw View Post
For your Lumagen to perform dynamic tone mapping, you will need an HDfury device positioned before the Lumagen, and configure the HDfury to send custom HDR metadata with the LLDV output. The Lumagen will see the HDR custom metadata and should perform DTM on the content as if it was real HDR10. Because you would only want to send the custom metadata for LLDV and not for real HDR10, you should consider the Vertex 2 or Diva that have options to specify when to send HDR metadata. The earlier devices will either send custom metadata or not send, so you would have to turn ON the setting for LLDV and OFF for HDR10.

I would suggest that you use Mark's EDID in the HDfury since it is targeting BT2020 color profile and that might be better for the Lumagen DTM:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/465-h...l#post59252502

As for the custom metadata values you send, I don't know what you currently do in the Lumagen. Does it use the metadata values as received? Does it use configured values? What does it do where the metadata values are zero? You might have to experiment with the values sent for MaxDML, MinDML, MaxCLL, and MaxFALL.

Disclaimer: This is all hypothetical as I don't have a Lumagen.


I don't send LLDV for either HDR10 or SDR disc content. I use MadVR. But the idea is the same. Have the Oppo convert to Dolby Vision and output as LLDV, and the HDfury add custom HDR10 metadata.
Thanks for the response.

If I went with the base Vertex (cheaper), you mentioned I would have to turn ON/OFF a setting depending on what I'm watching. Where would I turn that setting on/off? The vertex? Or the oppo?

Side question: you mention you use MadVR for SDR disc content. I'm presuming that's not doing any "fake" HDR application, but you're just using the usual benefits of what MadVR can add to SDR sources? (i've been watching the MadVR envy threads with interest).

The lumagen should respect whatever metadata values it receives. But that's a good point; I'm not entirely sure what the four values would/should be set to.

I do realize this is a bit of a science experiment.

Chris


Theater 1: LG OLED55E6P, Oppo UDP-203, Apple TV 4K, Dune HD Solo 4K
Theater 2: Sony VPL-VW885ES, Seymour Premier 16:9 128", Lumagen 4242, Oppo 103D (CFW) & 203, Apple TV 4K, Sony MDR-DS7500 Wireless Surround Headphones & Denon AVR-X6500H (7.2.4)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by claw View Post
I don't send LLDV for either HDR10 or SDR disc content. I use MadVR. But the idea is the same. Have the Oppo convert to Dolby Vision and output as LLDV, and the HDfury add custom HDR10 metadata.
Let me ask a different, more basic question: is it "silly" to be trying this in the first place? Even knowing that the Oppo conversion to DV is "fake", do you think I would see a big difference watching sdr content using lldv? Or should I just wait for a madvr envy to do IT'S magic on sdr content?


Theater 1: LG OLED55E6P, Oppo UDP-203, Apple TV 4K, Dune HD Solo 4K
Theater 2: Sony VPL-VW885ES, Seymour Premier 16:9 128", Lumagen 4242, Oppo 103D (CFW) & 203, Apple TV 4K, Sony MDR-DS7500 Wireless Surround Headphones & Denon AVR-X6500H (7.2.4)
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PS5
Is it almost safe to say that when the new ps5 arrives we can then use this new play station for this DV hack? I would love to get rid of the following apple tv, roku, xbox oppo and ps4 and just stick with one machine..
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post #941 of 2235 Old 02-24-2020, 01:26 PM
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Originally Posted by fatherom View Post
Let me ask a different, more basic question: is it "silly" to be trying this in the first place? Even knowing that the Oppo conversion to DV is "fake", do you think I would see a big difference watching sdr content using lldv? Or should I just wait for a madvr envy to do IT'S magic on sdr content?
MadVR 1080P to 4K upscaling has been tuned using AI. Start with a 4K version, downscale to 1080P, then upscale again to 4K, compare to original 4K, and repeat. Upscaling BD discs looks so good now that I do not want to add fake HDR or fake Dolby Vision.

So LLDV from SDR or HDR10 is not for me and I have no interest in doing so. You will have to get opinions from others who do it.
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Last edited by claw; 02-24-2020 at 01:31 PM.
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Originally Posted by fatherom View Post
Thanks for the response.

If I went with the base Vertex (cheaper), you mentioned I would have to turn ON/OFF a setting depending on what I'm watching. Where would I turn that setting on/off? The vertex? Or the oppo?

Side question: you mention you use MadVR for SDR disc content. I'm presuming that's not doing any "fake" HDR application, but you're just using the usual benefits of what MadVR can add to SDR sources? (i've been watching the MadVR envy threads with interest).

The lumagen should respect whatever metadata values it receives. But that's a good point; I'm not entirely sure what the four values would/should be set to.

I do realize this is a bit of a science experiment.

Chris
The original Vertex has a single checkbox to enable/disable sending custom HDR metadata. Since you would not want to override original HDR10 metadata you would need to uncheck the box when watching HDR10 content as HDR10. If you were going to convert all HDR10 content to LLDV, then you would want to send custom metadata.

The new Vertex2 has several check boxes that specify for what type of input should custom metadata be sent. There is a checkbox that when enabled will only sent HDR metadata for LLDV.
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Originally Posted by claw View Post
I don't have any MKVs, but tonight I will confirm that it works (or doesn't) with full folder backups.
Thanks Claw.
I did the test with full folder and in such case the DV is correctly sent (but I did not check if the movie was in DV or HDR). At least i can confirm I can see DV from vertex2. So I conclude we cannot force DV with MKV from Oppo.
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post #944 of 2235 Old 02-24-2020, 05:14 PM
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I have tried to convert all content from my ATV 4K to LLDV (ATV set with match range off and match rate off) using my Vertex2, but it seems when I first turn on the system, my JVC RS440 doesn't automatically go to HDR mode, therefore the ATV menu colors are washed out. I then have to manually switch to HDR mode.

If instead I configure the ATV to use 4K SDR 60Hz for the GUI, with match range on, then the menus show correctly in SDR and so does LLDV content, but then I get the HDMI handshake lag that I was hoping to eliminate.

Anyone else see this? Hopefully I'm explaining the issue correctly.
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Originally Posted by DMILANI View Post
I have tried to convert all content from my ATV 4K to LLDV (ATV set with match range off and match rate off) using my Vertex2, but it seems when I first turn on the system, my JVC RS440 doesn't automatically go to HDR mode, therefore the ATV menu colors are washed out. I then have to manually switch to HDR mode.
Are you using the Vertex RS232 to switch modes?

I leave the projector in HDR mode. The ATV4K does all the conversion so there’s no need to switch modes.

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post #946 of 2235 Old 02-24-2020, 05:38 PM
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I’m not using the RS232 cable. This issue seemed to start when I started using the “use custom HDR when LLDV input” radio button in the Vertex2. How do you have your Vertex2 configured?
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post #947 of 2235 Old 02-24-2020, 05:53 PM
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I’m not using the RS232 cable. This issue seemed to start when I started using the “use custom HDR when LLDV input” radio button in the Vertex2. How do you have your Vertex2 configured?
I only have a Vertex, but recently had the Linker connected.

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post #948 of 2235 Old 02-24-2020, 06:04 PM
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So on the Vertex, how do you have the custom HDR configured? Do you anyways send HDR flag to projector? If so I can try that since that’s probably what is needed anyway. And do you have Match Rate turned on or off on the ATV?
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So on the Vertex, how do you have the custom HDR configured? Do you anyways send HDR flag to projector? If so I can try that since that’s probably what is needed anyway. And do you have Match Rate turned on or off on the ATV?
I didn’t set up custom HDR. My projector is in fixed HDR mode so it shouldn’t make any difference.

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post #950 of 2235 Old 02-24-2020, 06:21 PM
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Ok thanks, I’ll try some things out soon.
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post #951 of 2235 Old 02-24-2020, 08:23 PM
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Originally Posted by DMILANI View Post
I’m not using the RS232 cable. This issue seemed to start when I started using the “use custom HDR when LLDV input” radio button in the Vertex2. How do you have your Vertex2 configured?
Marking the custom HDR check box is not sufficient on its own. You need to click the Send HDR button to write the metadata to the HDfury device so it can be included it in the output when you have the Use Custom HDR checkbox enabled.

Also, make sure you don't have a Disable HDR check box set as well as a Use Custom HDR check box as they will cancel each other out.

If you change any of the default metadata values from the default, then you need to click the Create IF button to create a new metadata string, and then click the Send HDR button to write the new metadata string to the HDFury device.
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Originally Posted by DavCap78 View Post
Thanks Claw.
I did the test with full folder and in such case the DV is correctly sent (but I did not check if the movie was in DV or HDR). At least i can confirm I can see DV from vertex2. So I conclude we cannot force DV with MKV from Oppo.
I tested an HDR10-only full folder backup via USB and the Oppo Info screen showed HDR input and Dolby Vision output.

Sorry, but I don't have any mkv backups.

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post #953 of 2235 Old 02-25-2020, 12:11 AM
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Originally Posted by claw View Post
I tested an HDR10-only full folder backup via USB and the Oppo Info screen showed HDR input and Dolby Vision output.

Sorry, but I don't have any mkv backups.
Thanks Claw, it confirms what I’ve read on another thread: the Oppo is not supporting DV at all for MKV ☹️.

Remains 3 solutions:
1. Wait new ATV and see if Apple re-enable passthrough (I still believe in miracle..)🤞
2. re-do all my UHD BR backup again in ISO or folder😱
3. Use my BR disk 😤
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post #954 of 2235 Old 02-25-2020, 07:51 AM
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Originally Posted by DavCap78 View Post
Thanks Claw, it confirms what I’ve read on another thread: the Oppo is not supporting DV at all for MKV ☹️.

Remains 3 solutions:
1. Wait new ATV and see if Apple re-enable passthrough (I still believe in miracle..)🤞
2. re-do all my UHD BR backup again in ISO or folder😱
3. Use my BR disk 😤
Note that the Oppo does not support ISO file playback; only folder backups.

CJ
JVC RS500 | LG B7A OLED | Denon X6400H (7.2.4) | X4200W | Panasonic UB820 | Two Oppo 203 | Samsung K8500 | Apple TV 4K | Amazon Fire TV Stick 4K | HDfury Diva/Vertex/Linker/Integral | MadVR with EVGA RTX-2080 Ti
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post #955 of 2235 Old 02-25-2020, 10:47 AM
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Originally Posted by claw View Post
[

Note that the Oppo does not support ISO file playback; only folder backups.
Mmm 🤨 strange as I just tested 2 iso files I had and Oppo read them perfectly.
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post #956 of 2235 Old 02-25-2020, 12:28 PM
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Originally Posted by DavCap78 View Post
Mmm 🤨 strange as I just tested 2 iso files I had and Oppo read them perfectly.
There was a short-lived firmware version that supported ISO file playback. There is also hacked firmware that does it. But current official firmware should not.

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post #957 of 2235 Old 03-02-2020, 08:59 AM
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I am using this method with the original Linker and it mostly works: Dolby Vision detected using the Custom EDID, great picture sent to my JVC RS500 using one of Arve's curves I had created some time ago.

The only issue I am facing is with Dolby Atmos: For whatever reason, once I enable it on the AppleTV settings I get no sound. Plus, the receiver just indicates Stereo (instead of Multi-PCM). Sound is fine once I disable Atmos support.

Details:

Receiver is a Denon 3200W, with the latest firmware applied.
Chain: Apple TV -> Linker -> Denon 3200W -> JVC RS 500

Linker settings: Custom EDID (BT2020 one shared by markswift2003 or the original LG DV one - same results), removal of HDR flag so the JVC won't auto-engage Gamma D.


Has anyone else faced a similar issue? I still need to try it out without the Linker in the chain (I would lose Dolby Vision, but I could check if the Atmos issue is a consequence of the Linker or not).

Thanks!
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post #958 of 2235 Old 03-02-2020, 09:40 AM
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Originally Posted by danbez View Post
I am using this method with the original Linker and it mostly works: Dolby Vision detected using the Custom EDID, great picture sent to my JVC RS500 using one of Arve's curves I had created some time ago.

The only issue I am facing is with Dolby Atmos: For whatever reason, once I enable it on the AppleTV settings I get no sound. Plus, the receiver just indicates Stereo (instead of Multi-PCM). Sound is fine once I disable Atmos support.

Details:

Receiver is a Denon 3200W, with the latest firmware applied.
Chain: Apple TV -> Linker -> Denon 3200W -> JVC RS 500

Linker settings: Custom EDID (BT2020 one shared by markswift2003 or the original LG DV one - same results), removal of HDR flag so the JVC won't auto-engage Gamma D.


Has anyone else faced a similar issue? I still need to try it out without the Linker in the chain (I would lose Dolby Vision, but I could check if the Atmos issue is a consequence of the Linker or not).

Thanks!
I have the Linker after the receiver (X3400H) and have no issues.

JVC DLA-X550R; Denon AVR-X3400H; HD Fury Linker / Vertex 2; ATV4K; Sony UBP-X700
JVC Curves; Optimizing HDR;
Creating a basic HDR curve using Arve’s Tool;
Replacing JVC Bare Bulbs
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post #959 of 2235 Old 03-02-2020, 07:49 PM
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If you check the linker website it clarifies that it doesn't support Apple TV Atmos.

Enviado desde mi Moto G (5S) mediante Tapatalk
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post #960 of 2235 Old 03-02-2020, 08:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mauro145 View Post
If you check the linker website it clarifies that it doesn't support Apple TV Atmos.

Enviado desde mi Moto G (5S) mediante Tapatalk
Thanks Mauro. You are right - It's in the front page of the HDFury Linker page.

Looks like I will need to upgrade it!
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