Dolby Vision, including HDR10 conversion w/ DTM on Projectors? - Page 34 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #991 of 2220 Old 03-08-2020, 08:58 PM
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Hi all,

I am new here. First of all sorry for my English might not very well.

I am currently owned the following stuff :-

Soruce
1. Panasonic UB9000
2. Nvidia Shield TV Pro 2019
3. Zidoo Z9

AV Processor
1. Anthem AVM60

Video Processor
HDfury Vertex2

Projector:
1. LG HU70LA (4K HDR capable)

I am connecting the above stuff as follow

UB9000--|
Shield TV-| >>> Anthem AVM60>>>HDFury Vertex2>>>LG HU70LA
Zidoo Z9-|


LG HU70LA claims that they have flame by flame base Dynamic Tone Mapping. But after engaging this function, the brightness of the image will be dimmer and will have better high light details.

On UB9000 side, I am now setting the HDR Optimizer as Basis Luminance Projector (350 nits), for compense the brightness which loss due to DTM in LG, I set the HDR Optimizer as Light Bright Environment (as I know it is as same as set the slider in Dynamic Range Adjustment +8). In this setting it can bring back the image brightness and keep "a little more" high light layer but the image seem more digital as enhanced the sharpness.

When turning off the image will brighter but still keep high light details but lesser layers (for example, I can still barely see the cloud in the sky but the grey become white.) In some high brightness movies such as MEG, Batman Lego Movie and SING, turning DTM OFF in LG will push the mid tone brightness and compresses the high light details a lot.

I also tried to send custom HDR metadata from Vertex2 (MaxCLL 350 MaxFALL 280 and MaxCLL 50 MaxFall 40) to LG, but it seems have not much difference.

I am very happy to know the projector user can sending LLDV from DV player to Vertex2, and very interest to know if there is any improvement on picture quality.

Sorry for long story and shot question........
According to my system, do I only need to do as follow to trigger the player to send LLDV:-

1. setting Dolby Vision: Auto in UB9000
2. setting Custom EDID : Sony A1 LLDV in Vertex2

Is the only what I need to do for sending Dolby Vision layer out?

What is kind of Metadata is sending from the player, static metadata or dynamic metadata?
And what kind of Metadata is receiving from Vertex2 static metadata or dynamic metadata?

Thank you very much.

Anthony Chan
AV Blog: http://www.avnewbie.com
Panasonic DP-UB9000EBK, Shield TV Pro 2019, Zidoo Z9S, Anthem AVM60, Krell KAV2250 X 2, Theater Amplifier Standard, M&K S-150 X 5, SS150 X 4, Martin Logan Descent-i and Thiel SS 2, SS2.2 and SI 1 Integrator, LG HU70LA, JK 126" Fixed Screen N4-FL/W1

Last edited by chhanthony; 03-08-2020 at 11:09 PM.
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post #992 of 2220 Old 03-09-2020, 07:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chhanthony View Post
According to my system, do I only need to do as follow to trigger the player to send LLDV:-

1. setting Dolby Vision: Auto in UB9000
2. setting Custom EDID : Sony A1 LLDV in Vertex2

Is the only what I need to do for sending Dolby Vision layer out?

What is kind of Metadata is sending from the player, static metadata or dynamic metadata?
And what kind of Metadata is receiving from Vertex2 static metadata or dynamic metadata?

Thank you very much.
1. I have the UB820 and there is no Dolby Vision : Auto option. The Dolby Vision setting is either ON or OFF. Set it to ON.

2. With the Sony A1 LLDV EDID, you will probably get a red tint to the picture. If you do, then there is a custom EDID you can load to the Vertex2 that should eliminate the red tint. The custom EDID can be downloaded from this post:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/465-h...l#post59252502


As for metadata, LLDV is Dolby Vision so there is no HDR10 metadata. You can send custom HDR10 metadata from the Vertex2 if your projector requires it to switch to its HDR10 picture mode.

CJ
JVC RS500 | LG B7A OLED | Denon X6400H (7.2.4) | X4200W | Panasonic UB820 | Two Oppo 203 | Samsung K8500 | Apple TV 4K | Amazon Fire TV Stick 4K | HDfury Diva/Vertex/Linker/Integral | MadVR with EVGA RTX-2080 Ti
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post #993 of 2220 Old 03-09-2020, 07:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by claw View Post
1. I have the UB820 and there is no Dolby Vision : Auto option. The Dolby Vision setting is either ON or OFF. Set it to ON.
Functionally, the UB820 Dolby Vision ON behaves like Auto. It will send Dolby Vision, HDR10 or SDR to the TV, depending on the content. This is unlike the Sony players, which in the DV ON mode would send everything in DV (with conversion from HDR10 or SDR when necessary).

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post #994 of 2220 Old 03-09-2020, 08:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by claw View Post
1. I have the UB820 and there is no Dolby Vision : Auto option. The Dolby Vision setting is either ON or OFF. Set it to ON.

2. With the Sony A1 LLDV EDID, you will probably get a red tint to the picture. If you do, then there is a custom EDID you can load to the Vertex2 that should eliminate the red tint. The custom EDID can be downloaded from this post:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/465-h...l#post59252502i


As for metadata, LLDV is Dolby Vision so there is no HDR10 metadata. You can send custom HDR10 metadata from the Vertex2 if your projector requires it to switch to its HDR10 picture mode.
sorry my bad, the DV setting is ON instead of AUTO

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post #995 of 2220 Old 03-09-2020, 08:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by claw View Post
1. I have the UB820 and there is no Dolby Vision : Auto option. The Dolby Vision setting is either ON or OFF. Set it to ON.

2. With the Sony A1 LLDV EDID, you will probably get a red tint to the picture. If you do, then there is a custom EDID you can load to the Vertex2 that should eliminate the red tint. The custom EDID can be downloaded from this post:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/465-h...l#post59252502


As for metadata, LLDV is Dolby Vision so there is no HDR10 metadata. You can send custom HDR10 metadata from the Vertex2 if your projector requires it to switch to its HDR10 picture mode.
Hi,

I can't trigger the LLDV in UB9000
I have already set EDID as CUSTOM: INPUT 0 (UB9000): Custom Default [Sony A1 LLDV]

I still get HDR10 from UB9000.

What I missed?

Thank you.

Anthony Chan
AV Blog: http://www.avnewbie.com
Panasonic DP-UB9000EBK, Shield TV Pro 2019, Zidoo Z9S, Anthem AVM60, Krell KAV2250 X 2, Theater Amplifier Standard, M&K S-150 X 5, SS150 X 4, Martin Logan Descent-i and Thiel SS 2, SS2.2 and SI 1 Integrator, LG HU70LA, JK 126" Fixed Screen N4-FL/W1
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post #996 of 2220 Old 03-09-2020, 09:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chhanthony View Post
Hi,

I can't trigger the LLDV in UB9000
I have already set EDID as CUSTOM: INPUT 0 (UB9000): Custom Default [Sony A1 LLDV]

I still get HDR10 from UB9000.

What I missed?

Thank you.
Are you playing contents that are in Dolby Vision?

JVC DLA-X550R; Denon AVR-X3400H; HD Fury Linker / Vertex 2; ATV4K; Sony UBP-X700
JVC Curves; Optimizing HDR;
Creating a basic HDR curve using Arve’s Tool;
Replacing JVC Bare Bulbs
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post #997 of 2220 Old 03-09-2020, 09:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chhanthony View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by claw View Post
1. I have the UB820 and there is no Dolby Vision : Auto option. The Dolby Vision setting is either ON or OFF. Set it to ON.

2. With the Sony A1 LLDV EDID, you will probably get a red tint to the picture. If you do, then there is a custom EDID you can load to the Vertex2 that should eliminate the red tint. The custom EDID can be downloaded from this post:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/465-h...l#post59252502


As for metadata, LLDV is Dolby Vision so there is no HDR10 metadata. You can send custom HDR10 metadata from the Vertex2 if your projector requires it to switch to its HDR10 picture mode.
Hi,

I can't trigger the LLDV in UB9000
I have already set EDID as CUSTOM: INPUT 0 (UB9000): Custom Default [Sony A1 LLDV]

I still get HDR10 from UB9000.

What I missed?

Thank you.
My setting as follows, please advise
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Anthony Chan
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post #998 of 2220 Old 03-09-2020, 09:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by chhanthony View Post
Hi,

I can't trigger the LLDV in UB9000
I have already set EDID as CUSTOM: INPUT 0 (UB9000): Custom Default [Sony A1 LLDV]

I still get HDR10 from UB9000.

What I missed?

Thank you.
Are you playing contents that are in Dolby Vision?
Yes, I am playing John Wick 3 in UB9000.

Anthony Chan
AV Blog: http://www.avnewbie.com
Panasonic DP-UB9000EBK, Shield TV Pro 2019, Zidoo Z9S, Anthem AVM60, Krell KAV2250 X 2, Theater Amplifier Standard, M&K S-150 X 5, SS150 X 4, Martin Logan Descent-i and Thiel SS 2, SS2.2 and SI 1 Integrator, LG HU70LA, JK 126" Fixed Screen N4-FL/W1
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post #999 of 2220 Old 03-09-2020, 09:31 AM
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How cool yesterday i watched color out of space which was pretty good but it was 4k only not hdr or dv and i was able to use the DV profile perfectly... I did not have to switch my jvc to natural mode which was crazy..
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post #1000 of 2220 Old 03-09-2020, 09:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chhanthony View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by chhanthony View Post
Hi,

I can't trigger the LLDV in UB9000
I have already set EDID as CUSTOM: INPUT 0 (UB9000): Custom Default [Sony A1 LLDV]

I still get HDR10 from UB9000.

What I missed?

Thank you.
Are you playing contents that are in Dolby Vision?
Yes, I am playing John Wick 3 in UB9000.
Hi, I figure out the issue was came from Anthem AVM60, UB9000 output LLDV to Vertex2 when UB9000 connected LG projector directly, but LG did kick off the HDR mode. By sending custom HDR metadata, LG go into HDR mode, the image is washed out compared to HDR10, it might be the figures I set in the custom HDR metadata.

No idea why Anthem block the LLDV, it should support DV.

Anthony Chan
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Panasonic DP-UB9000EBK, Shield TV Pro 2019, Zidoo Z9S, Anthem AVM60, Krell KAV2250 X 2, Theater Amplifier Standard, M&K S-150 X 5, SS150 X 4, Martin Logan Descent-i and Thiel SS 2, SS2.2 and SI 1 Integrator, LG HU70LA, JK 126" Fixed Screen N4-FL/W1
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post #1001 of 2220 Old 03-09-2020, 09:53 AM
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Talking LLDV Total Ownage

Please see attached pic, this is nearly final version now.
As a bonus, next update will have ALLM settings per input, Enjoy !
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post #1002 of 2220 Old 03-09-2020, 10:05 AM
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Originally Posted by chhanthony View Post
Hi, I figure out the issue was came from Anthem AVM60, UB9000 output LLDV to Vertex2 when UB9000 connected LG projector directly, but LG did kick off the HDR mode. By sending custom HDR metadata, LG go into HDR mode, the image is washed out compared to HDR10, it might be the figures I set in the custom HDR metadata.

No idea why Anthem block the LLDV, it should support DV.
Prolly because Anthem either does not support LLDV or it is trying to take the A1 edid and add it's audio capabilities on it before presenting it to the source, but prolly run out of space to insert its own capabilities so prolly drop some features from A1 edid which break LLDV support.
Solution is to see if there is any settings to 1:1 copy output edid to an input on your AVR. Other solution is to put AVR at Vertex2/Diva/Maestro AUDIO OUT or at Diva/Vertex2 TX1 output. or use an EDID manager (like Dr.HDMI 4K) between source and AVR if you want to keep same setup and AVR does not have such option for 1:1 copy of sink EDID at output.

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Vertex2: 4I/3O +Autoswitch any sources +HDMI/ARC/eARC sound to AVR input +webserver.
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post #1003 of 2220 Old 03-09-2020, 11:45 AM
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Please see attached pic, this is nearly final version now.
As a bonus, next update will have ALLM settings per input, Enjoy !
Will the Maestro get this update as well?
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post #1004 of 2220 Old 03-09-2020, 11:51 AM
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Will the Maestro get this update as well?
Yes, and in the following order: Vertex2 first, then Maestro, then Diva. Only a couple of days between each one needed.
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Yes, and in the following order: Vertex2 first, then Maestro, then Diva. Only a couple of days between each one needed.
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post #1006 of 2220 Old 03-09-2020, 12:04 PM
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It is very pleasant to see you guys taking advantage of LLDV capable sources to play DV content on HDR10 capable display in order to get a "simili" HDR10+ result.
Also very pleased to see that the initial red tint have been solved with the DV custom string field that we added as per your requests, looks like you have done the right use of that feature too.

I usually never post outside our own threads in video processor section, but i wanted to tell you that we followed your progress here and on avforums where i once posted but was banned immediately

Purpose of my post here is to tell you the following:

1. Since you have been doing so well so far, we will add a custom DV string decoder and creator prolly before next month so you guys can test and adjust even more.
2. To thank @Bytehoven @bmandra @harpervision (avforums) and others who actively helped, we put live a special 30% OFF coupon code just for the readers of this thread and AVforums thread, coupon code is: LLDV
This coupon will expire when the new firmware with DV string decoder and creator will be released. This is not "retro active" so do not even ask, we like to spend our time coding.

Please do not thank us, but thanx those guys for it !
They deserve all the credits and some faced individuals and companies hate for bringing such disruptive PQ improvement method to the public.

If someone can pass the words on avforums, it would be much appreciated.

All the best in your journey guys and see you soon for new FW updates dedicated to bring your experiments further !
Is the discount code still valid? Can it be used for the Maestro as well? That seems to be the best deal for those who can benefit from the HDBaseT feature.

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post #1007 of 2220 Old 03-09-2020, 01:04 PM
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Is the discount code still valid? Can it be used for the Maestro as well? That seems to be the best deal for those who can benefit from the HDBaseT feature.
Yes to both questions
Coupon will stay valid till the firmware with new DV section is available on all 3 devices concerned (Vertex2, Maestro and Diva)
First release is due in the next hours.
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Yes, and in the following order: Vertex2 first, then Maestro, then Diva. Only a couple of days between each one needed.


Any chance of the original vertex getting it as well


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post #1009 of 2220 Old 03-09-2020, 11:24 PM
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Findings:



This DV LLDV DTM process is working with Dolby Vision titles and HDR10 titles!



Results from DV and HDR10 content with the Sony x800m2 -> Vertex (Sony A1 LLDV V2 EDID) -> Denon x4300h -> JVC DLA-X990 have been excellent. I find no issue with how any DV titles is reproduced. I do have questions how some HDR10 content is reproduced, which may benefit more from HDR2020/SDR2020 on the ub820, versus DV LLDV DTM on the x800m2. Three title examples... BR2049, Valerian and CE:TTK.



In these three cases, the question I have yet to resolve, because DV LLDV DTM and customary HDR10 processing look very different, which is more correct?



RB2049... x800m2 DV LLDV DTM has darker peak white lumens, versus what can be achieved using the ub820 Dynamic Range Slider (DRS). There is room to increase x990 master contrast with the x800m2, to achieve a similar result, but where as using the DSR on the ub820 comes with minor compromises as you move toward +12, increasing master contrast with the x800m2 will crush highlights at some point. For content mastered with MaxCLL below 1000 nits, there is room to push master contrast and preserve highlights.



Valerian ... I can't say DV LLDV DTM with Valerian looks wrong, but it is an example of content mastered in such a way as to cause some aspects of gamma response to be darker compared to HDR10 processing. And I note this title separately, because upper mid and highly reproduction is excellent, and the lower gamma response is not something the master contrast tweak fixes. But again, on this title DV LLDV DTM vs HDR10, I remain with the question which is more correct?



Close Encounters of the Third Kind ... with this title, the 4K HDR10 title remastering is something I have wondered about even when playing pack with UB820 HDR2020 or SDR2020. The remastering seems to be designed to exaggerate the look of the film stock and color timing Steven used. the DV LLDV DTM, takes this exaggeration a step or two further, making some scenes look over cooked and impacting highlights. But again, which is more correct?



In general, HDR10 content playback thru DV LLDV DTM, has had positive results. Later in this thread, I sorted my 4k collection. Subsequently, when I found I could increase master contrast on the JVC x990 from +2 to +12 or more, the ub820 DRS lost its advantage at helping to resolve dark titles.







Results from SDR1080 content with x800m2 -> Vertex (Sony DV LLDV EDID) -> AVR -> x990 If you leave DV engaged on the x800m2, the player will force a DV conversion with DV LLDV. Where as forcing a DV conversion with HDR10 has been good, DV conversion with SDR comes with many side effects. Side effects too numerous to entertain ever using DV LLDV with SDR content. So, on the x800m2, one should disengage DV when hosting SDR content, which is easy to remember and do, versus guessing how 4K UHD titles have been mastered.







Results from ATV 4K 64 -> Vertex (Sony A1 LLDV EDID) -> Denon x4300h -> JVC X990 have been excellent with DV content, namely watching episodes of The Morning Show and SEE. I have yet to check HDR10 content from the ATV4k thru the DV LLDV. I also have to see if anything is happening to SDR content, if DV LLDV is passing thru or forcing a DV conversion. The latter being a bad step.







Results from Panasonic UB820 ... DV LLDV will work with a source capable of DV output when playing DV content. However, I could see a difference between DV content on the x800m2 versus the UB820. DV LLDV on the ub820 was crushing highlights, and even reducing master contrast, I was unable to resolve some highlights which were resolved on the x800m2. HDR10 content on the UB820 with the DV LLDV engaged, passes thru as HDR, as the UBxxxx are equipped to support DV LLDV the way the Sony and OPPO players do.





I will continue to expand this post, moving more info here. Thanks for looking.


Is there a special custom gamma that I can upload to projector or do I use the usual ones E.g dc curve/ javs that have been used previously


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post #1010 of 2220 Old 03-10-2020, 09:12 AM
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Is there a special custom gamma that I can upload to projector or do I use the usual ones E.g dc curve/ javs that have been used previously
The curve you use now should be fine.

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New Vertex2 firmware is up boys!

Edited for correctness.
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Video: JVC RS540 w/Lens & 122" 2.35:1 CIH / HDFury Vertex 2 w/Dolby Vision
Audio: Marantz SR7010 / XPA-3 / UPA-7 Sources: Nvidia Shield Pro / Xbox One X
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The curve you use now should be fine.
Claw just wanted to double check something.. last time i did an update my settings got erased i set them back as best as i could but i don't remember all of them.. Does this look ok? I have a custom profile and everything plays well..


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post #1013 of 2220 Old 03-10-2020, 01:41 PM
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Claw just wanted to double check something.. last time i did an update my settings got erased i set them back as best as i could but i don't remember all of them.. Does this look ok? I have a custom profile and everything plays well..


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Hey jorge, my display goes all green when I select HLG under Automix. Does yours?


Also, did you know you can save your settings on the config tab, then RESET before you upgrade the firmware? Once upgraded, it's super easy to import them back in.

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New firmware is up boys!
For Vertex2, not yet for Maestro or Diva.
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Originally Posted by jorgebetancourt View Post
How cool yesterday i watched color out of space which was pretty good but it was 4k only not hdr or dv and i was able to use the DV profile perfectly... I did not have to switch my jvc to natural mode which was crazy..
Also jorge, are you using an Apple TV4k and that's why you can send LLDV for all content? Trying to understand but it seems like I'm not able to do this with the Shield Pro--meaning convert all content to LLDV and stay in HDR full time.

Video: JVC RS540 w/Lens & 122" 2.35:1 CIH / HDFury Vertex 2 w/Dolby Vision
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Claw just wanted to double check something.. last time i did an update my settings got erased i set them back as best as i could but i don't remember all of them.. Does this look ok? I have a custom profile and everything plays well..
I use the Sony A1 LLDV custom EDID rather than Automix, but your settings look OK for that.

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Also jorge, are you using an Apple TV4k and that's why you can send LLDV for all content? Trying to understand but it seems like I'm not able to do this with the Shield Pro--meaning convert all content to LLDV and stay in HDR full time.
Curently, the only players known to be able to convert all content to Dolby Vision and output as LLDV include:

Oppo 203/205, ATV4K, Sony X700, and X800/M2

Setting the HLG flag on Automix should not make your display green, but perhaps doing so has messed up the Dolby Vision block due to size constrants.
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but perhaps doing so has messed up the Dolby Vision block due to size constrants.
Yes possible, that's why you guys should take the habit to always post your config when any issue, because that info and mostly anything else appears in clear in it !

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Any chance of the original vertex getting it as well


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There is no current plan for that, too much work on our roadmap and we are not even sure if it is possible to add this on previous generation, memory is full to the last byte, even if that is more a GUI update, there is still a real time variable to integrate and it might not be possible at all.
We will investigate this when we have time, just way too busy at the moment, sorry.

This being said, you can always ask some one with Vertex2/Diva/Maestro and similar setup (same display) than you, that found and tested the right datablock settings for it, to export his EDID and then you can upload it in your Vertex.
This is also why posting config is always a good thing, cause then one can grab edid easily from it or even just import config in his device if he got the same one of course.

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post #1020 of 2220 Old 03-10-2020, 02:15 PM
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Yes possible, that's why you guys should take the habit to always post your config when any issue, because that info and mostly anything else appears in clear in it !
Sorry, here is my config. I may have to go ahead and order an ATV4k. Is there a particular feature the Shield Pro would need to implement to work like the ATV4k does in this manner? Or is it the kind of thing where we just need to test after they have done an update.


Also, if I figure out why my screen is turning green when selecting HDR+ or HLG, does this mean the shield pro will be able to process these formats with my JVC RS540? I'm guessing not.


Correction: When HDR+ is selected, it does not allow DV to be enabled on my projector and goes back to the regular HDR support. When HLG is selected, it turns the display green.
Attached Files
File Type: txt VERTEX2-CONFIG-3_10_2020.txt (11.9 KB, 21 views)

Video: JVC RS540 w/Lens & 122" 2.35:1 CIH / HDFury Vertex 2 w/Dolby Vision
Audio: Marantz SR7010 / XPA-3 / UPA-7 Sources: Nvidia Shield Pro / Xbox One X
7. Ascend Acoustics Sierra-2 EX (L R C), Ascend Acoustics HTM-200SE (side & rear)
2. Subs: SVS PC-2000 & eD A3-300 12" / Sensory: Aura Pro Bass Shakers
4 HTM-200SE for Atmos/DTS:X Theater Pics / Desktop

Last edited by TKNice; 03-10-2020 at 02:21 PM.
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