Dolby Vision, including HDR10 conversion w/ DTM on Projectors? - Page 51 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1501 of 2220 Old 04-14-2020, 11:25 AM
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Originally Posted by claw View Post
And messing with contrast settings in the projector is not going to recover highlights that have been clipped.
Changing the Contrast setting does shifts the clipping point of the projector. Arve's Tool has an option to use the Contrast setting to set the clipping point.

This of course assumes the highlight is not clipped at the source.

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post #1502 of 2220 Old 04-15-2020, 03:49 AM
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Originally Posted by claw View Post
I understand this 10,000 nit setting is all the rage in the other forum, but it just doesn't make sense to me. At least not with a JVC projector with fixed gamma curves.

I am not about to create a 10,000 nit curve just so highlights above 4000 nits don't get clipped to white. And messing with contrast settings in the projector is not going to recover highlights that have been clipped.
As is your prerogative.

last I heard however, was that the use of this mod is entirely voluntary and the end result on any individuals screen is down to taste anyway.....

Edited to add, I am still gobsmacked by what I am seeing and it also took some time before I got out of the mind set of the 'normal' way of setting contrast and brightness on HDR material.

This mod is great, whichever way you cook and serve it.
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post #1503 of 2220 Old 04-15-2020, 03:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
Changing the Contrast setting does shifts the clipping point of the projector. Arve's Tool has an option to use the Contrast setting to set the clipping point.

This of course assumes the highlight is not clipped at the source.
Which, if sending a full 10,000nit signal from the source, one could rightly assume it would not be.

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post #1504 of 2220 Old 04-15-2020, 07:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Archibald1 View Post
last I heard however, was that the use of this mod is entirely voluntary and the end result on any individuals screen is down to taste anyway.....
With 100+ actual nits, some of us strive to get the most accurate picture within that constraint, which is much harder than trying for the most blinding picture.

This is the whole reason I use matching curves for each Max Luminance setting. Otherwise I can just crank everything way up.
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post #1505 of 2220 Old 04-15-2020, 08:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
With 100+ actual nits, some of us strive to get the most accurate picture within that constraint, which is much harder than trying for the most blinding picture.

This is the whole reason I use matching curves for each Max Luminance setting. Otherwise I can just crank everything way up.
I think this shows you have missed the point of what I was saying. I don't have everything turned up, quite the contrary.

And it was only the explosions in Gemini man that made me sit back, the rest of the film just looked like being there in person in all honesty.

I am not rubbishing you or how you want to play this mod, but I am saying that there are other ways of crumbling this particular cookie and if one's kit (by whatever method) is able to make the most of the 10,000nit option then it is at least worth giving it a try if one is so inclined.

Oh, and HDR will NEVER be accurate on projectors until there is one that can either do 10,000nits natively and needs no tone mapping whatsoever, or until a true HDR projection standard can be set for front projection that takes it out of the realms of the wild west.

Until that time, it is up to each of us to get things to how we each like them.

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post #1506 of 2220 Old 04-15-2020, 08:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Archibald1 View Post
Oh, and HDR will NEVER be accurate on projectors until there is one that can either do 10,000nits natively and needs no tone mapping whatsoever, or until a true HDR projection standard can be set for front projection that takes it out of the realms of the wild west.

Until that time, it is up to each of us to get things to how we each like them.
It may not be completely accurate on projectors, but everything up to the diffuse white level (and somewhat beyond) should look substantially the same as a 4000 nits monitor. It’s the highlights that get tone-mapped.

That’s my definition of “accuracy within the constraint of the peak nits available”, and what I was aiming to achieve with using matching curves for each Max Luminance setting.

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post #1507 of 2220 Old 04-15-2020, 09:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
It may not be completely accurate on projectors, but everything up to the diffuse white level (and somewhat beyond) should look substantially the same as a 4000 nits monitor. It’️s the highlights that get tone-mapped.

That’️s my definition of “accuracy within the constraint of the peak nits available”, and what I was aiming to achieve with using matching curves for each Max Luminance setting.
And from what I read, you are getting good results from your efforts.
Many are benefitting from your work and input too and that to me is what these communities are all about.
Take care.

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post #1508 of 2220 Old 04-15-2020, 10:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Archibald1 View Post
And from what I read, you are getting good results from your efforts.
Many are benefitting from your work and input too and that to me is what these communities are all about.
Take care.
What is your display device?

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Originally Posted by claw View Post
What is your display device?
I have the same as @Pär Lundvik , namely a 760ES.

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post #1510 of 2220 Old 04-15-2020, 11:40 PM
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Has anyone tried the 10,000 nit settings for JVC projectors and have any idea what good settings are best to use.
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post #1511 of 2220 Old 04-16-2020, 04:17 AM
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Originally Posted by rilyas77 View Post
Has anyone tried the 10,000 nit settings for JVC projectors and have any idea what good settings are best to use.
That is a good question.
I don't know if the JVCs have a 1,000nit and 4000(+)nit curve to base any adjustments on, like the laser Sony's have.

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post #1512 of 2220 Old 04-16-2020, 08:55 AM
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Has anyone tried the 10,000 nit settings for JVC projectors and have any idea what good settings are best to use.
I believe this speaks for most JVC projector owners:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/465-h...l#post59493530

The native 4K JVC models have a Frame Adapt mode which dynamically measures and adjusts for the peak luminance, but even with those I wouldn’t use the 10000 setting. You would be asking the projector itself to squeeze everything between 100 nits and 10000 nits into a 50 nits band, instead of having the player to do the tone mapping (which is the main reason to use LLDV).
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post #1513 of 2220 Old 04-16-2020, 09:30 AM
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Originally Posted by rilyas77 View Post
Has anyone tried the 10,000 nit settings for JVC projectors and have any idea what good settings are best to use.
To me, setting to 10,000 nits would mean that the player would not need to perform any tone mapping when it outputs LLDV from the original full Dolby Vision source. Instead putting tone mapping responsibility to the display device instead. That makes little sense to me since we seem to be always looking for external tone mapping solutions (MadVR/Envy or Lumagen or even Panasonic HDR Optimizer) because most displays do a less that optimal job of it.

You might try the other forum. Although I don't understand how forum members that believe that LLDV is dynamic tone mapping can turn 360 degrees and suggest not doing any tone mapping instead.
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Although I don't understand how forum members that believe that LLDV is dynamic tone mapping can turn 360 degrees and suggest not doing any tone mapping instead.
That's an interesting and crucial point. Tone mapping (whether dynamic or static) is only required if the display device cannot handle the peak luminance of the source material.

If one sets Max Luminance to 10000 nits, it is literally telling the player “Hey, don’t bother with tone mapping, I can take it all”, which essentially defeats the whole reason for using the LLDV (Player Led Dolby Vision) hack.
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Originally Posted by claw View Post
To me, setting to 10,000 nits would mean that the player would not need to perform any tone mapping when it outputs LLDV from the original full Dolby Vision source. Instead putting tone mapping responsibility to the display device instead. That makes little sense to me since we seem to be always looking for external tone mapping solutions (MadVR/Envy or Lumagen or even Panasonic HDR Optimizer) because most displays do a less that optimal job of it.

You might try the other forum. Although I don't understand how forum members that believe that LLDV is dynamic tone mapping can turn 360 degrees and suggest not doing any tone mapping instead.
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That's an interesting and crucial point. Tone mapping (whether dynamic or static) is only required if the display device cannot handle the peak luminance of the source material.

If one sets Max Luminance to 10000 nits, it is literally telling the player “Hey, don’t bother with tone mapping, I can take it all”, which essentially defeats the whole reason for using the LLDV (Player Led Dolby Vision) hack.

Dominic and Claw are like Spock and Data, you just cannot argue with their logic
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post #1516 of 2220 Old 04-16-2020, 03:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
That's an interesting and crucial point. Tone mapping (whether dynamic or static) is only required if the display device cannot handle the peak luminance of the source material.

If one sets Max Luminance to 10000 nits, it is literally telling the player “Hey, don’t bother with tone mapping, I can take it all”, which essentially defeats the whole reason for using the LLDV (Player Led Dolby Vision) hack.
For all your apparent jubilation, I just don't see why you seem to have made it your mission to rubbish something you have not tried. Or why you care so much that you spend all this time trying to disprove things, when all you need to do is say how you have set yours up and accept that others will do as they please regardless of your sensibilities towards total accuracy. Which, by the way, you will never get on a consumer display.

As I said before, I personally don't care how it is doing what it does, but the image is A-MAZE-ING. And as it is a thing that can be changed very easily, I can try all sorts of different permutations to my hearts content.

As it is a Dolby Vision output that is going into the Fury, then dynamic something or other is happening at some stage.
Whether it truly outputs a 10,000nit signal or not (not sure how one would actually tell anyway as a Dolby signal doesn't display any metadata on the disc), the affect, on screen, in my room, where I and my family watch our content, is frankly superb!! Love it.

So I don't really mind about your derision, I love what I have found.

Take care all.

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Originally Posted by Archibald1 View Post
As it is a Dolby Vision output that is going into the Fury, then dynamic something or other is happening at some stage.
For clarification it is the player that transforms full Dolby Vision content to LLDV output. The HDfury does nothing with the LLDV signal; although it can add a HDR10 metadata layer if configured that way. It only presents an EDID that tells the player to send LLDV instead of Dolby Vision.
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For all your apparent jubilation, I just don't see why you seem to have made it your mission to rubbish something you have not tried.
...
So I don't really mind about your derision, I love what I have found.
I was merely trying to find a technical explanation for what is being observed when experimenting with various settings, in reply to rilyas77’s question
Quote:
Originally Posted by rilyas77 View Post
Has anyone tried the 10,000 nit settings for JVC projectors and have any idea what good settings are best to use.
I re-read that post 3 times and still don’t see how it came across as “derision”; if that’s how you perceived it I apologize.

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Originally Posted by Archibald1 View Post
For all your apparent jubilation, I just don't see why you seem to have made it your mission to rubbish something you have not tried. Or why you care so much that you spend all this time trying to disprove things, when all you need to do is say how you have set yours up and accept that others will do as they please regardless of your sensibilities towards total accuracy. Which, by the way, you will never get on a consumer display.

As I said before, I personally don't care how it is doing what it does, but the image is A-MAZE-ING. And as it is a thing that can be changed very easily, I can try all sorts of different permutations to my hearts content.

As it is a Dolby Vision output that is going into the Fury, then dynamic something or other is happening at some stage.
Whether it truly outputs a 10,000nit signal or not (not sure how one would actually tell anyway as a Dolby signal doesn't display any metadata on the disc), the affect, on screen, in my room, where I and my family watch our content, is frankly superb!! Love it.

So I don't really mind about your derision, I love what I have found.

Take care all.

Your post makes absolutely no sense!. Dominic merely presented a technical explanation as to what HE BELIEVES is happening. At no point did he sound confrontational, imply any "jubilation" or used language that would constitute "derision." In short, there was nothing personal (insofar as being critical to you or anyone else) in Dominic's post at all. In fact, it is you who submitted subjective and anecdotal information in response to his purely technical comments. If you read ANY of Dominic's previous posts, he consistently recommends that each of us finds the settings that work best in our respective systems. Isn't that what you are saying as well? Your personal attack on Dominic is baseless, unwarranted and downright rude.
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post #1520 of 2220 Old 04-17-2020, 12:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archibald1 View Post
As it is a Dolby Vision output that is going into the Fury, then dynamic something or other is happening at some stage.
[IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif[/IMG]
For clarification it is the player that transforms full Dolby Vision content to LLDV output. The HDfury does nothing with the LLDV signal; although it can add a HDR10 metadata layer if configured that way. It only presents an EDID that tells the player to send LLDV instead of Dolby Vision.
Ummmm, I suggest you read your own quoted message, just one more time......

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Originally Posted by atabea View Post
Your post makes absolutely no sense!. Dominic merely presented a technical explanation as to what HE BELIEVES is happening. At no point did he sound confrontational, imply any "jubilation" or used language that would constitute "derision." In short, there was nothing personal (insofar as being critical to you or anyone else) in Dominic's post at all. In fact, it is you who submitted subjective and anecdotal information in response to his purely technical comments. If you read ANY of Dominic's previous posts, he consistently recommends that each of us finds the settings that work best in our respective systems. Isn't that what you are saying as well? Your personal attack on Dominic is baseless, unwarranted and downright rude.
Listen, I don't know whether it is because others are getting good results on other makes of projector, or because it has been achieved by them with much less effort (not having to make curves etc) maybe something else, or maybe all of those things, who knows.
Great results can be had with this mod in any number of ways.
Good innit!
Also, Dominic can speak for himself. You seem......... oddly protective.....
Also, maybe derision was a bit strong and I apologise to @Dominic Chan for that.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archibald1 View Post
For all your apparent jubilation, I just don't see why you seem to have made it your mission to rubbish something you have not tried.
...
So I don't really mind about your derision, I love what I have found.
I was merely trying to find a technical explanation for what is being observed when experimenting with various settings, in reply to rilyas77’️s question
Quote:
Originally Posted by rilyas77 View Post
Has anyone tried the 10,000 nit settings for JVC projectors and have any idea what good settings are best to use.
I re-read that post 3 times and still don’️t see how it came across as “derision”; if that’️s how you perceived it I apologize.
Not a problem my friend. It is not always apparent how anyone wishes to come across on these pages. Testing times too, which don't help.
Take care and keep having fun with your testing/experiments.

Any and all input is, and should be, welcome on equal levels.
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It has been months ago since, you said you had two 500's, were you running them as a dual light output to make up for the inadequacy of light from just one projector having a filter? If you were, do you recommend, others do the same for optimum results? If so, It would seem to me that at the very least you would have to get new bulbs for both projectors and always run them at the same time. Same for air-conditioning. Did you make a custom stand of one over one or one side one?

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We also need HDMI 3.0 as well. I try to keep this in mind before I make any substantial purchases or do buy on a product promised to be upgradable. You can't always believe the manufacture ability to tell the truth, that I why I will never buy an Onkyo product again. Because of the current World situation concerning clovid 19, manufacturing problems might be longer than we anticipated. Off topic, because of the current shortage in money supply, many authorized merchants, maybe willing to make more open box sales for a substantial cut in price to you. I would call around with a price in my head.
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post #1525 of 2220 Old 04-17-2020, 03:35 AM
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Originally Posted by raneil View Post
We also need HDMI 3.0 as well. I try to keep this in mind before I make any substantial purchases or do buy on a product promised to be upgradable. You can't always believe the manufacture ability to tell the truth, that I why I will never buy an Onkyo product again. Because of the current World situation concerning clovid 19, manufacturing problems might be longer than we anticipated. Off topic, because of the current shortage in money supply, many authorized merchants, maybe willing to make more open box sales for a substantial cut in price to you. I would call around with a price in my head.
What about HDMI 3 do you need? To be honest, there is NOTHING even in HDMI 2.1 that I have any interest in .. Everything I care about from now until I'm dead is covered in 2.0, hdcp 2.2. 4k, yes. 8k, I have no interest in something my eyes can't see even on my 115" screen. I don't care about 60hz let alone 120. Rec2020? Mate most devices can't even cover dcip3, let alone 2020. And no-one is even making 2020 content. If people were making projectors that fully utilized 2.0 it would be incredible. I'm not joking here. More dots that I can't see, but pathetic dcip3 coverage is not an advance, it is a lazy easily available cheat.
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post #1526 of 2220 Old 04-17-2020, 04:57 AM
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Originally Posted by MOberhardt View Post
What about HDMI 3 do you need? To be honest, there is NOTHING even in HDMI 2.1 that I have any interest in .. Everything I care about from now until I'm dead is covered in 2.0, hdcp 2.2. 4k, yes. 8k, I have no interest in something my eyes can't see even on my 115" screen. I don't care about 60hz let alone 120. Rec2020? Mate most devices can't even cover dcip3, let alone 2020. And no-one is even making 2020 content. If people were making projectors that fully utilized 2.0 it would be incredible. I'm not joking here. More dots that I can't see, but pathetic dcip3 coverage is not an advance, it is a lazy easily available cheat.
Very good point and vey well made, if I may say so sir!

As things stand, I will not need any new hardware until this lot actually goes pop. So give us software updates not endless new models please!

“Remember to look up at the stars and not down at your feet. Be curious. And however difficult life may seem, there is always something you can do and succeed at. It matters that you don’t just give up." Stephen Hawking.
"Be water my friend." Bruce Lee.
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post #1527 of 2220 Old 04-17-2020, 05:36 AM
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Hdfury Linker and JVC RS540 with OPPO 203

Hello everybody,

I have an HDfury Linker on the way, and my setup is an OPPO 203 going through a Denon 7200WA receiver.

Reviewing this thread, I understand the correct LLDV configuration method is #2 , since I can setup a BT2020 profile on my JVC projector, correct ?

2 - Mark's custom BT2020 EDID in combination with BT2020 color profile in any display. This is a good option for those that don't want to mess with color profiles in your display. Every HDR display should include a BT2020 color proflle.

Custom BT2020 EDID download Link:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/attac...2&d=1581851932
Also, is there an advantage on loading Dominc`s 350 nits LLDV gama profile on my JVC ?

Thank you all for your support !
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post #1528 of 2220 Old 04-17-2020, 10:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Cbermejo View Post
Hello everybody,

I have an HDfury Linker on the way, and my setup is an OPPO 203 going through a Denon 7200WA receiver.

Reviewing this thread, I understand the correct LLDV configuration method is #2 , since I can setup a BT2020 profile on my JVC projector, correct ?

2 - Mark's custom BT2020 EDID in combination with BT2020 color profile in any display. This is a good option for those that don't want to mess with color profiles in your display. Every HDR display should include a BT2020 color proflle.

Custom BT2020 EDID download Link:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/attac...2&d=1581851932
Also, is there an advantage on loading Dominc`s 350 nits LLDV gama profile on my JVC ?

Thank you all for your support !

The "gamma curve" should reflect the Max luminance in the DV tab.

Personally, I would load Javs 1200 Nits curve and be done with it😊
That one works well when you emulate the Sony A1 OLED for LLDV (Max luminance 1000 Nits).
It's also very useful for other HDR10 contents.
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post #1529 of 2220 Old 04-17-2020, 12:20 PM
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Originally Posted by AVRams View Post
The "gamma curve" should reflect the Max luminance in the DV tab.

Personally, I would load Javs 1200 Nits curve and be done with it😊
That one works well when you emulate the Sony A1 OLED for LLDV (Max luminance 1000 Nits).
It's also very useful for other HDR10 contents.
Thank you very much for the reply!
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post #1530 of 2220 Old 04-18-2020, 05:49 AM
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Every now n then, when I switched between DV n regular HDR files/disc, the picture have an over-exposed look. I cannot get it back to normal , no matter which button I pushed , until I powered the Vertex2 off n then back on. Did I have the wrong settings on Vertex2 ? Would appreciate your assist on this n thanks in advance 🙏🏻

Man see things as they are n say why. I dream of things that never were, n say why not ....... A Perfect PROJECTOR
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