Dolby Vision, including HDR10 conversion w/ DTM on Projectors? - Page 63 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1861 of 1963 Old 05-18-2020, 02:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Robert Melvin View Post
Will the Sony UBP-X800 player work also for the DV conversion with Vertex 2 or is it just the UBP-X800/M2
I don't have answer to this, your best best is X800 thread for that

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post #1862 of 1963 Old 05-18-2020, 02:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Robert Melvin View Post
Will the Sony UBP-X800 player work also for the DV conversion with Vertex 2 or is it just the UBP-X800/M2
The x800 does not support Dolby Vision.
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post #1863 of 1963 Old 05-19-2020, 05:15 AM
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I'm mostly posting to thank everyone for all the work they've done figuring this out. I've had an RS540 for a couple of years and actually have been a bit frustrated with HDR movies. I've now gotten an Integral 2 and x700 and really enjoying the LLDV output.

My setup is I have the Full + BT2020 EDID and then (since a lot of times my family watches movies with lights on fairly bright) a range of gamma curves with 1200/60/bc, Javs 1200/85/.002, and LLDV-1000. Now that I have the Integral 2 I've also programmed it to do some rescaling and drop the HDR metadata to tame the x700 changing resolutions/color space rapidly in between menus and media (or even in between two consecutive mkv files).

At some point I'll sit down and compare more of what I think of different max luminance in the LLDV EDID and slightly different gamma curves, but from what I've seen so far the bright curves look really nice with the lights on (and a couple master picture control changes) and we watched The Matrix last night with the room darkened and it was spectacular.

@Dominic Chan was there any black compensation added to the LLDV-1000 curve? The impression I had from your post was that that set was pretty much unmodified curves, but in watching The Matrix I was actually wondering b/c sometimes it seemed like the shadows were a bit lighter than I expected.

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post #1864 of 1963 Old 05-19-2020, 07:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce Lowekamp View Post
@Dominic Chan was there any black compensation added to the LLDV-1000 curve? The impression I had from your post was that that set was pretty much unmodified curves, but in watching The Matrix I was actually wondering b/c sometimes it seemed like the shadows were a bit lighter than I expected.
If you're using the LLDV1000 curve (LLDV1000.conf) in my signature there is no black compensation, as it is in Arve's Tool format which does not support black compensation (other than bbo, which I do not use as a matter of principle).

Here's a comparison of the LLDV1000 curve (grey line) with Jav's 1200nitv3 (black line). Note that Jav's curve has a bbo=0.004 which actually lifts the near-black.

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Last edited by Dominic Chan; 05-19-2020 at 07:49 AM.
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post #1865 of 1963 Old 05-19-2020, 09:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
If you're using the LLDV1000 curve (LLDV1000.conf) in my signature there is no black compensation, as it is in Arve's Tool format which does not support black compensation (other than bbo, which I do not use as a matter of principle).

Here's a comparison of the LLDV1000 curve (grey line) with Jav's 1200nitv3 (black line). Note that Jav's curve has a bbo=0.004 which actually lifts the near-black.
Thanks. Yeah, clearly a difference in the very bottom.

I wanted to look at the curves myself, but found python3 on my mac is currently crashing when Arve's tool fires up TK, so couldn't graph them. Haven't had a chance to figure out what mismatch there is in my build.

I've seen mention of other tools for creating curves, but haven't spent the time to learn about the differences. Do you happen to have a link to a discussion of pros/cons of bbo? Arve's tool is the only one I've used (and as it's in python, I know I can modify it if I want to).

At this point, though, I'm happy enough with the picture quality to go with what I have for awhile. Next priority is to get the JVC macros working properly once a couple new cables come tomorrow. Biggest issue I've had was yesterday when I realized I was in a picture mode with "HDR" color profile instead of "BT.2020" and the shadows were tinted red.

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post #1866 of 1963 Old 05-19-2020, 09:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce Lowekamp View Post
I've seen mention of other tools for creating curves, but haven't spent the time to learn about the differences.
I'm not aware of any other tools that can create HDR curves.

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At this point, though, I'm happy enough with the picture quality to go with what I have for awhile. Next priority is to get the JVC macros working properly once a couple new cables come tomorrow. Biggest issue I've had was yesterday when I realized I was in a picture mode with "HDR" color profile instead of "BT.2020" and the shadows were tinted red.
Switching between BT.2020 profile and HDR profile does not affect the red tint. You need to use the BT.2020 LLDV EDID, instead of the Sony A1 EDID.
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post #1867 of 1963 Old 05-19-2020, 10:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
Switching between BT.2020 profile and HDR profile does not affect the red tint. You need to use the BT.2020 LLDV EDID, instead of the Sony A1 EDID.
What I can tell you is that with x700 sending DV to Integral 2 using Full + BT.2020 EDID sending to JVC RS540 using HDR color profile, the deep shadows (in Matrix scene panning around the characters plugged into the matrix on the ship's deck) were reddish, and then changing (only) the color profile on the RS540 from HDR to BT.2020 fixed it. This didn't seem that surprising to me since the color profile of the source and display didn't match, any more than the A1 color profile doesn't match (either projector mode, I guess).

I do have the Integral 2 set to strip HDR metadata b/c I got tired of the filters etc popping in and out every time the x700 changed picture mode, so I have to manually adjust the projector to match (until I have the macros set up) which is probably why I noticed it.

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post #1868 of 1963 Old 05-19-2020, 10:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce Lowekamp View Post
What I can tell you is that with x700 sending DV to Integral 2 using Full + BT.2020 EDID sending to JVC RS540 using HDR color profile, the deep shadows (in Matrix scene panning around the characters plugged into the matrix on the ship's deck) were reddish, and then changing (only) the color profile on the RS540 from HDR to BT.2020 fixed it. This didn't seem that surprising to me since the color profile of the source and display didn't match, any more than the A1 color profile doesn't match (either projector mode, I guess).
Between HDR and BT.2020 profiles I wouldn’t consider that to be a “profile mismatch”. Both can be used to watch standard HDR10 without issues.

If you see a red tint with only one of them it would be due to calibration issues rather than “profile mismatch”. The two profiles have independent calibrations.

In terms of profile naming, the RS440 only has HDR and no BT.2020 profile; the older RS420 has a BT.2020 profile that’s actually HDR (BT.2020 without the P3 filter). Both of them work fine with LLDV using the BT.2020 EDID.
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Last edited by Dominic Chan; 05-19-2020 at 02:30 PM.
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post #1869 of 1963 Old 05-20-2020, 03:24 AM
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Thanks for your contributions and help that you provide in the threads @Dominic Chan .
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post #1870 of 1963 Old 05-20-2020, 03:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
If you're using the LLDV1000 curve (LLDV1000.conf) in my signature there is no black compensation, as it is in Arve's Tool format which does not support black compensation (other than bbo, which I do not use as a matter of principle).

Here's a comparison of the LLDV1000 curve (grey line) with Jav's 1200nitv3 (black line). Note that Jav's curve has a bbo=0.004 which actually lifts the near-black.


Hey Dom. How are you enjoying your LLDV1000 arve curve? I have Javs v3 or whatever his latest and using custom colour profile (dci-P3 ) with custom EDID and things are great. Just wondering if you found some improvement with your curve?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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post #1871 of 1963 Old 05-24-2020, 06:39 AM
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Forgive me, I have not read all the way through the 63 pages yet, but has anyone had success with this on a Sony 285es/260es?
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post #1872 of 1963 Old 05-24-2020, 07:31 AM
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Originally Posted by DubbyMcDubs View Post
Forgive me, I have not read all the way through the 63 pages yet, but has anyone had success with this on a Sony 285es/260es?
Since all the work is done by the player, this “hack” works with any display that supports HDR10.
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post #1873 of 1963 Old 05-24-2020, 07:37 AM
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Since all the work is done by the player, this “hack” works with any display that supports HDR10.
Great news! Thanks. Might have to give it a go.
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post #1874 of 1963 Old 05-24-2020, 08:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
If you're using the LLDV1000 curve (LLDV1000.conf) in my signature there is no black compensation, as it is in Arve's Tool format which does not support black compensation (other than bbo, which I do not use as a matter of principle).

Here's a comparison of the LLDV1000 curve (grey line) with Jav's 1200nitv3 (black line). Note that Jav's curve has a bbo=0.004 which actually lifts the near-black.
In case anyone is interested, here is a look at the low end of the curves plus one that I added some near black lift to Dominics LLDV1000 curve. I haven't looked at it yet so I might have gone a bit too far.

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post #1875 of 1963 Old 05-24-2020, 09:48 AM
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In case anyone is interested, here is a look at the low end of the curves plus one that I added some near black lift to Dominics LLDV1000 curve. I haven't looked at it yet so I might have gone a bit too far.

Can you add the 0.002 and 0.005 nit black compensation Javs curves to the comparison? Thanks.
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post #1876 of 1963 Old 05-24-2020, 12:29 PM
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Can you add the 0.002 and 0.005 nit black compensation Javs curves to the comparison? Thanks.
Sure thing. Not sure exactly what comparisons you want to see.

DC 1200-85nit BC .jgd curves added and interpolated to previous graph. Low end of curve.



Only Jav and DC 1200-85 curves. Interpolated .jgd plus Javs .conf with bbo. Low end of curve.



Same as above but no interpolation on .jgd

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post #1877 of 1963 Old 05-24-2020, 01:13 PM
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I am going to try the one I show here. Added a bit more compensation to Dominic's .005

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post #1878 of 1963 Old 05-24-2020, 02:04 PM
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Originally Posted by anevard View Post
I am going to try the one I show here. Added a bit more compensation to Dominic's .005

What is the black level of your projector? I find it surprising that you need to add more compensation than 0.005; most people already find it “too much”.

BTW, the graphs illustrate why I dislike using BBO - it creates an “artificial” discontinuity coming out of black.
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@Dominic Chan how are you I have question for you.. Which one of your curves is closest to Javs with zero black compensation.. I was originally using javs 1200 nit curve then switched to 85_1200_002.jgd but at times I feel its a bit too bright on some scenes.. I see this one jvc_gamma_LLDV1000.conf on your folder would this be it?

Also to up load a .conf curve i would then have to use Arves tool? I hate arves tool to upload anything..
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post #1880 of 1963 Old 05-24-2020, 04:30 PM
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Originally Posted by jorgebetancourt View Post
@Dominic Chan how are you I have question for you.. Which one of your curves is closest to Javs with zero black compensation.. I was originally using javs 1200 nit curve then switched to 85_1200_002.jgd but at times I feel its a bit too bright on some scenes.. I see this one jvc_gamma_LLDV1000.conf on your folder would this be it?

Also to up load a .conf curve i would then have to use Arves tool? I hate arves tool to upload anything..
Are you finding the black compensation too bright, or the overall curve too bright? If the latter, you can just use a lower Max Luminance value in the DV string.

There are two versions of the Java curves, the original (~100nits) curve, and the brighter 85 nits version. I have only applied black compensation to the latter version.

Last edited by Dominic Chan; 05-24-2020 at 05:15 PM.
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Originally Posted by tswire View Post
Hey Dom. How are you enjoying your LLDV1000 arve curve? I have Javs v3 or whatever his latest and using custom colour profile (dci-P3 ) with custom EDID and things are great. Just wondering if you found some improvement with your curve?


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Hello and thank you SO much for all of the contributors to this thread! I am apologizing in advance for what is probably a dumb question but how do I load the Full + BT2020 EDID into the Vertex 2? I have Dominics curves to play with (thank you so much Dominic! You rock!) loaded into my JVC RS-3000 (NX-9) but I cant for the life of me figure out how to load the BR2020 EDID. My chain is Oppo 205, Marantz 8802A, to the JVC. I upload the file into the Vertex interface but cannot figure out how to apply it. I am sure it is simple but an assist would be much appreciated!

Best to all!

Keith

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Originally Posted by KASOFO View Post
Hello and thank you SO much for all of the contributors to this thread! I am apologizing in advance for what is probably a dumb question but how do I load the Full + BT2020 EDID into the Vertex 2? I have Dominics curves to play with (thank you so much Dominic! You rock!) loaded into my JVC RS-3000 (NX-9) but I cant for the life of me figure out how to load the BR2020 EDID. My chain is Oppo 205, Marantz 8802A, to the JVC. I upload the file into the Vertex interface but cannot figure out how to apply it. I am sure it is simple but an assist would be much appreciated!

Best to all!

Keith
Oops! Then the Marantz to the Vertex 2!

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post #1883 of 1963 Old 05-24-2020, 08:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KASOFO View Post
Hello and thank you SO much for all of the contributors to this thread! I am apologizing in advance for what is probably a dumb question but how do I load the Full + BT2020 EDID into the Vertex 2? I have Dominics curves to play with (thank you so much Dominic! You rock!) loaded into my JVC RS-3000 (NX-9) but I cant for the life of me figure out how to load the BR2020 EDID. My chain is Oppo 205, Marantz 8802A, to the JVC. I upload the file into the Vertex interface but cannot figure out how to apply it. I am sure it is simple but an assist would be much appreciated!

Best to all!

Keith
To set up on the JVC side and the NX9, what you'd want to do is set up a User profile in the JVC with BT.2020 color space, a color temp (6500K or HDR), and finally a gamma (HDR). You wouldn't need to add a curve to your projector either. I've been using this setup for a couple of days now and am getting a LLDV output from my Panasonic 820 for both DV discs and with Netflix (I haven't tested Vudu or Amazon yet). So far, so good.

The other option since you have a Vertex 2, is just use the HDR setting in the projector. Just make sure you choose the BT2020 colorspace to activate the filter.

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post #1884 of 1963 Old 05-25-2020, 02:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KASOFO View Post
Hello and thank you SO much for all of the contributors to this thread! I am apologizing in advance for what is probably a dumb question but how do I load the Full + BT2020 EDID into the Vertex 2? I have Dominics curves to play with (thank you so much Dominic! You rock!) loaded into my JVC RS-3000 (NX-9) but I cant for the life of me figure out how to load the BR2020 EDID. My chain is Oppo 205, Marantz 8802A, to the JVC. I upload the file into the Vertex interface but cannot figure out how to apply it. I am sure it is simple but an assist would be much appreciated!

Best to all!

Keith
This should help:

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Dolby Vision, including HDR10 conversion w/ DTM on Projectors?

I have just updated the firmware on mine. Long story.

Was going to experiment with different HDR settings presented to the LLDV source using the Automix and DV tabs today.

I normally use both HDMI Monitor out on my 8802A. Monitor 1 direct to the Sony projector (HDMI1)

and Monitor 2 from the 8802A through the Vertex 2 to HDMI2 on the Sony.

This gives me a quick way of swapping between HDR and LLDV comparisons.

Switching between them worked fine but late in the tests, suddenly I got no signal from the Vertex 2. HDMI0 on the Vertex 2 OLED display showed No Signal

I was worried it was the 8802A. So I powered down and swapped the Vertex and direct connection cables from 1 to 2 respectively. But the Sony still picked up the direct signal from Monitor 2. So that ruled out the 8802A. Phew

Now it looked like the Vertex 2 might be the problem.

I did a power cycle. Nada.

I did a factory reset via the web page. Nada.

Then for some reason the Vertex 2 kept trying to go to HDMI2 input. Even when I manually switch the input using the buttons to HDMI0 or 1 or 3. I decided to plug the 8802A output to HDMI2 and voila picture appeared.

But no go on other inputs. All read - No signal.

At a loss, I finally updated the firmware.

Now all the inputs are working. Phew.

Hope this troubleshooting helps someone else later down the road.
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post #1886 of 1963 Old 05-25-2020, 05:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jorgebetancourt View Post
@Dominic Chan how are you I have question for you.. Which one of your curves is closest to Javs with zero black compensation.. I was originally using javs 1200 nit curve then switched to 85_1200_002.jgd but at times I feel its a bit too bright on some scenes.. I see this one jvc_gamma_LLDV1000.conf on your folder would this be it?

Also to up load a .conf curve i would then have to use Arves tool? I hate arves tool to upload anything..
Here are some of the curves you asked about for comparison. Also it is not difficult to convert a .conf to .jgd file but you lose a lot of granularity.

Full Curves


Low end


Top end
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post #1887 of 1963 Old 05-25-2020, 05:21 AM
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Also it is not difficult to convert a .conf to .jgd file but you lose a lot of granularity.
Other than the “bbo step” that .conf curves can implement but .jgd curves cannot, have you come across any cases where the granularity poses an issue for “real” gamma curves?

I have a fundamental disagreement with the bbo jump, so that is not a limitation for me.

Last edited by Dominic Chan; 05-25-2020 at 05:38 AM.
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post #1888 of 1963 Old 05-25-2020, 05:41 AM
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BTW, the graphs illustrate why I dislike using BBO - it creates an “artificial” discontinuity coming out of black.
Apologies if this has been asked already, but what is BBO?

“Remember to look up at the stars and not down at your feet. Be curious. And however difficult life may seem, there is always something you can do and succeed at. It matters that you don’t just give up."
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post #1889 of 1963 Old 05-25-2020, 05:52 AM
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Apologies if this has been asked already, but what is BBO?
BBO is a feature of Arves Tool used for generating custom gamma curves for JVC projectors. People use it to create a step at the low end, to make a certain level (e.g., code level 68) visible, while keeping black (code level 64) at 0.
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post #1890 of 1963 Old 05-25-2020, 05:58 AM
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BBO is a feature of Arves Tool used for generating custom gamma curves for JVC projectors. People use it to create a step at the low end, to make a certain level (e.g., code level 68) visible, while keeping black (code level 64) at 0.
I see. What does it stand for?

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