Dolby Vision, including HDR10 conversion w/ DTM on Projectors? - Page 67 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Forum Jump: 
 1012Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #1981 of 2220 Old 05-29-2020, 09:36 AM
Senior Member
 
AV-NUT-99's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Pinehurst, TX
Posts: 256
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 56 Post(s)
Liked: 30
So, I have been reading the Vertex 2 manual and I have a question on how best to connect everything in my system for the best operation.

Equipment:

Marantz 7012 AVR
JVC RS 640 and a Samsung KS 9800 4K TV connected to the two HDMI outputs of the Marantz receiver
Oppo 203 4K Blu-Ray
Direct TV satellite
and a Roku 4K Ultra streamer

I now have everything connected to go through the Marantz, which passes 4K video through each of its HDMI outputs.

My confusion is related to the TX1 output which is labeled as a down conversion output. If I copy TX0 to TX1 does that allow the vertex 2 to output 4K signals on both TX1 and TX0? So I could have both of my displays receiving 4K with DV, etc. (so putting Vertex 2 after receiver and before displays?) I would then connect Oppo 203 on one of the Vertex inputs, cable box on another and either the Roku connected to vertex input or going through HDMI in on the Oppo?

Would this allow me to watch Direct TV on the Samsung in normal SDR/HD?

John Dixon
AV-NUT-99 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #1982 of 2220 Old 05-29-2020, 09:45 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
HDfury's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 6,944
Mentioned: 711 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5632 Post(s)
Liked: 1704
Quote:
Originally Posted by AV-NUT-99 View Post
So, I have been reading the Vertex 2 manual and I have a question on how best to connect everything in my system for the best operation.

Equipment:

Marantz 7012 AVR
JVC RS 640 and a Samsung KS 9800 4K TV connected to the two HDMI outputs of the Marantz receiver
Oppo 203 4K Blu-Ray
Direct TV satellite
and a Roku 4K Ultra streamer

I now have everything connected to go through the Marantz, which passes 4K video through each of its HDMI outputs.

My confusion is related to the TX1 output which is labeled as a down conversion output. If I copy TX0 to TX1 does that allow the vertex 2 to output 4K signals on both TX1 and TX0? So I could have both of my displays receiving 4K with DV, etc. (so putting Vertex 2 after receiver and before displays?) I would then connect Oppo 203 on one of the Vertex inputs, cable box on another and either the Roku connected to vertex input or going through HDMI in on the Oppo?

Would this allow me to watch Direct TV on the Samsung in normal SDR/HD?
On Vertex2:

TX0 can PASS 4K/2160p or upscale to 4K/2160p if signal is 2K/1080p
TX1 can PASS 4K/2160p or downscale to 2K/1080p if signal is 4K/2160p

so if you connect 2x 4K displays, then you will have 4K on both.

You can insert it between AVR output and both displays, or you can put your sources at Vertex2 input and AVR at AUDIO OUT, as you prefer.

And yes, both displays (if they are HDR10 capable) will be able to render DV content from LLDV capable source.
And yes, your SDR/HD will stay untouched if that is what you want.
AV-NUT-99 likes this.

Maestro: 4I/4O +4K HDR over HDBT +Autoswitch any sources +HDMI/ARC/eARC sound to AVR input +webserver. [Won Best Product Award]
Diva: 4I/3O +Ambient Light +Lag Tester +4K HDR > 1080p SDR +HDMI/ARC/eARC sound to AVR input +autoswitch +webserver.
Vertex2: 4I/3O +Autoswitch any sources +HDMI/ARC/eARC sound to AVR input +webserver.
HDfury is offline  
post #1983 of 2220 Old 05-29-2020, 10:36 AM
Senior Member
 
AV-NUT-99's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Pinehurst, TX
Posts: 256
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 56 Post(s)
Liked: 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by HDfury View Post
On Vertex2:

TX0 can PASS 4K/2160p or upscale to 4K/2160p if signal is 2K/1080p
TX1 can PASS 4K/2160p or downscale to 2K/1080p if signal is 4K/2160p

so if you connect 2x 4K displays, then you will have 4K on both.

You can insert it between AVR output and both displays, or you can put your sources at Vertex2 input and AVR at AUDIO OUT, as you prefer.

And yes, both displays (if they are HDR10 capable) will be able to render DV content from LLDV capable source.
And yes, your SDR/HD will stay untouched if that is what you want.
Got it! Thank you HDfury. I will go ahead and get everything connected and check it out. Will let you know my results.

John Dixon
AV-NUT-99 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #1984 of 2220 Old 06-04-2020, 05:31 PM
Advanced Member
 
kenoh89's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 735
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 485 Post(s)
Liked: 99
Does your projector already need to have HDR10 for this to work? Will this also work on monitors/TV's that support HDR10, but want to add Dynamic HDR?
kenoh89 is offline  
post #1985 of 2220 Old 06-04-2020, 05:49 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
HDfury's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 6,944
Mentioned: 711 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5632 Post(s)
Liked: 1704
Quote:
Originally Posted by kenoh89 View Post
Does your projector already need to have HDR10 for this to work? Will this also work on monitors/TV's that support HDR10, but want to add Dynamic HDR?
It will allow to play DV content from LLDV capable source on ANY HDR10 display (pj, display, monitor, etc...)
MOberhardt likes this.

Maestro: 4I/4O +4K HDR over HDBT +Autoswitch any sources +HDMI/ARC/eARC sound to AVR input +webserver. [Won Best Product Award]
Diva: 4I/3O +Ambient Light +Lag Tester +4K HDR > 1080p SDR +HDMI/ARC/eARC sound to AVR input +autoswitch +webserver.
Vertex2: 4I/3O +Autoswitch any sources +HDMI/ARC/eARC sound to AVR input +webserver.
HDfury is offline  
post #1986 of 2220 Old 06-04-2020, 07:09 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
claw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: L'Etoile du Nord
Posts: 3,709
Mentioned: 141 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2935 Post(s)
Liked: 2821
Quote:
Originally Posted by kenoh89 View Post
Does your projector already need to have HDR10 for this to work? Will this also work on monitors/TV's that support HDR10, but want to add Dynamic HDR?
There is no dynamic HDR metadata sent to the display. The scene by scene (or frame by frame) Dolby Vision metadata is read and utilized by the player during its tone mapping of the full Dolby Vision signal to LLDV.

Once the output is in LLDV format there is no requirement to add custom static HDR10 metadata except to trigger your HDR10 display to switch into HDR10 picture mode.
nathan_h, chhanthony and HDfury like this.

CJ
JVC RS500 | LG B7A OLED | Denon X6400H (7.2.4) | X4200W | Panasonic UB820 | Two Oppo 203 | Samsung K8500 | Apple TV 4K | Amazon Fire TV Stick 4K | HDfury Diva/Vertex/Linker/Integral | MadVR with EVGA RTX-2080 Ti

Last edited by claw; 06-04-2020 at 08:02 PM.
claw is offline  
post #1987 of 2220 Old 06-05-2020, 10:17 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Dave Vaughn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Vacaville, CA
Posts: 6,482
Mentioned: 34 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1930 Post(s)
Liked: 2956
I reviewed Top Gun and contrasted the LLDV versus the HDR 10: https://www.soundandvision.com/content/top-gun
claw, MOberhardt, HDfury and 2 others like this.

David Vaughn Blu-ray Reviewer / Technical Writer Sound & Vision Magazine (Print & Online)
Dave Vaughn is offline  
post #1988 of 2220 Old 06-05-2020, 01:31 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 1,218
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 830 Post(s)
Liked: 441
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Vaughn View Post
I reviewed Top Gun and contrasted the LLDV versus the HDR 10: https://www.soundandvision.com/content/top-gun
Thanks for the feedback. Can u give feedback how streaming looks compared to the tone mapping on the projector..

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk
jorgebetancourt is offline  
post #1989 of 2220 Old 06-05-2020, 01:33 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Dave Vaughn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Vacaville, CA
Posts: 6,482
Mentioned: 34 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1930 Post(s)
Liked: 2956
Quote:
Originally Posted by jorgebetancourt View Post
Thanks for the feedback. Can u give feedback how streaming looks compared to the tone mapping on the projector..

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk
I'm not sure I understand your question. Do you mean using the HDR 10 with the Dynamic Tone Mapping in the JVC versus the LLDV? If that's the case, then you'd be hard pressed to pick one over the other. I wish this was available when I had a X750R projector versus the dreaded Gamma D.

David Vaughn Blu-ray Reviewer / Technical Writer Sound & Vision Magazine (Print & Online)
Dave Vaughn is offline  
post #1990 of 2220 Old 06-05-2020, 02:46 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 1,218
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 830 Post(s)
Liked: 441
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Vaughn View Post
I'm not sure I understand your question. Do you mean using the HDR 10 with the Dynamic Tone Mapping in the JVC versus the LLDV? If that's the case, then you'd be hard pressed to pick one over the other. I wish this was available when I had a X750R projector versus the dreaded Gamma D.
Sorry about that i was getting in my car and typing at the same time.. Yes that's what i meant thanks for your respond..

Now i need to watch top gun as a kid i never saw it only pieces of it.. Are the flight scenes really good?
Dave Vaughn likes this.
jorgebetancourt is offline  
post #1991 of 2220 Old 06-05-2020, 03:45 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
HDfury's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 6,944
Mentioned: 711 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5632 Post(s)
Liked: 1704
Cool

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Vaughn View Post
I reviewed Top Gun and contrasted the LLDV versus the HDR 10: https://www.soundandvision.com/content/top-gun
One may be wondering how I was able to test the Dolby Vision encode on the disc with a projection setup? When using a HDFury Vertex and Panasonic UB-820 UHD Blu-ray player, you can "trick" the Panasonic into decoding the Dolby Vision version internally and outputting the video to any display that accepts a 4K HDR signal. There are some technical hoops to jump through here, but the results are visually pleasing and, in some cases, produces a more consistent picture versus the dynamic tone mapping built into the projector. Once set up, it's more plug-and-play versus determining which of the JVC's internal tone mapping settings to use (Auto, Low, Medium, or High).

the crowd applause !
Dave Vaughn and Pär Lundvik like this.

Maestro: 4I/4O +4K HDR over HDBT +Autoswitch any sources +HDMI/ARC/eARC sound to AVR input +webserver. [Won Best Product Award]
Diva: 4I/3O +Ambient Light +Lag Tester +4K HDR > 1080p SDR +HDMI/ARC/eARC sound to AVR input +autoswitch +webserver.
Vertex2: 4I/3O +Autoswitch any sources +HDMI/ARC/eARC sound to AVR input +webserver.

Last edited by HDfury; 06-05-2020 at 03:55 PM.
HDfury is offline  
post #1992 of 2220 Old 06-05-2020, 05:17 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Dave Vaughn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Vacaville, CA
Posts: 6,482
Mentioned: 34 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1930 Post(s)
Liked: 2956
Quote:
Originally Posted by jorgebetancourt View Post
Sorry about that i was getting in my car and typing at the same time.. Yes that's what i meant thanks for your respond..

Now i need to watch top gun as a kid i never saw it only pieces of it.. Are the flight scenes really good?
Yes...it's a fun movie IMO.

David Vaughn Blu-ray Reviewer / Technical Writer Sound & Vision Magazine (Print & Online)
Dave Vaughn is offline  
post #1993 of 2220 Old 06-05-2020, 05:33 PM
Senior Member
 
IMDave's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Melbourne,Australia
Posts: 220
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 154 Post(s)
Liked: 170
Talking Blind Test

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Vaughn View Post
I reviewed Top Gun and contrasted the LLDV versus the HDR 10: https://www.soundandvision.com/content/top-gun
Thanks @Dave Vaughn .
I have been stewing over how to ask this question for the past 3 days.
This thread, and the "original" thread by Dave H, are primarily about setting up the technical side of LLDV using our HDFury devices, but very little has been written about what it looks like.
My comments relate to my system which comprises an Oppo 203--> Vertex 1--> JVC RS500 ( with a Arve custom curve).
After the initial teething stages of getting everything set up correctly in the hardware ( Mark's custom EDID, importing Dominic's LLDV colour profile, configuring the JVC Macro) I have tried to do some comparisons.
UHD discs I own that are DV discs include " Knives Out" , "1917", "First Man", "Wonder Woman".
Your comment in your review seemed to sum things up rather well for me:

" Comparing the "regular" HDR10 image to the Dolby Vision one was not instantaneous by any stretch, but I watched various scenes from both versions back-to-back and found them equally appealing. "

Obviously, switching between "modes" makes things very difficult because changing from DV to HDR10 can take a couple of minutes by the time all the setting changes and re-syncs occur using a projector system.
My question is really: Are people genuinely able to see a discernible difference between Dolby Vision and HDR10 using a projector system capable of 100nits?
To me Dolby Vision looks EXACTLY the same as HDR10.
The supposed improvements ( 12bit vs 10 bit colour, less posterisation) are impossible to pick when it takes a couple of minutes to swap between formats.
And as for converting HDR10 to LLDV, well, again I can see no difference.
Do people think they could tell which was which in a blind test? How can people claim this is a "game changer"?
I think I reached the limit of my "law of diminishing returns" in 2017.

Last edited by IMDave; 06-05-2020 at 05:54 PM.
IMDave is online now  
post #1994 of 2220 Old 06-05-2020, 05:59 PM
Senior Member
 
Bruce Lowekamp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Williamsburg, VA
Posts: 289
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 80 Post(s)
Liked: 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by IMDave View Post
Thanks @Dave Vaughn .
Do people think they could tell which was which in a blind test? How can people claim this is a "game changer"?
I think I reached the limit of my "law of diminishing returns" in 2017.
For me the biggest difference is in primarily dark scenes. It brightens those up just a little, so they’re still overall dark but much easier to watch than with a fixed curve. Previously a gamma curve that made the dark scenes look better would then lighten the shadows too much in brighter scenes. And yes, I’ve gone between dark scenes with and without LLDV.

On the other end, I used to have two gamma curves for peak 1K and 4K encodings. I no longer have to figure out which curve makes the highlights look right for the disc I’m watching. (not typically a problem but every once in awhile a scene would bother me, and I would need to switch curves)

I’ve been very happy with the automatic tone mapping in HDR content. I only have a few DV titles, but I think it was a significant improvement in The Matrix given the number of dark scenes.

But on an average brightness scene, I would expect very little difference. No reason for there to be major changes.

Bruce


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
MOberhardt likes this.
Bruce Lowekamp is offline  
post #1995 of 2220 Old 06-05-2020, 06:10 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Dave Vaughn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Vacaville, CA
Posts: 6,482
Mentioned: 34 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1930 Post(s)
Liked: 2956
Quote:
Originally Posted by IMDave View Post
Thanks @Dave Vaughn .
I have been stewing over how to ask this question for the past 3 days.
This thread, and the "original" thread by Dave H, are primarily about setting up the technical side of LLDV using our HDFury devices, but very little has been written about what it looks like.
My comments relate to my system which comprises an Oppo 203--> Vertex 1--> JVC RS500 ( with a Arve custom curve).
After the initial teething stages of getting everything set up correctly in the hardware ( Mark's custom EDID, importing Dominic's LLDV colour profile, configuring the JVC Macro) I have tried to do some comparisons.
UHD discs I own that are DV discs include " Knives Out" , "1917", "First Man", "Wonder Woman".
Your comment in your review seemed to sum things up rather well for me:

" Comparing the "regular" HDR10 image to the Dolby Vision one was not instantaneous by any stretch, but I watched various scenes from both versions back-to-back and found them equally appealing. "

Obviously, switching between "modes" makes things very difficult because changing from DV to HDR10 can take a couple of minutes by the time all the setting changes and re-syncs occur using a projector system.
My question is really: Are people genuinely able to see a discernible difference between Dolby Vision and HDR10 using a projector system capable of 100nits?
To me Dolby Vision looks EXACTLY the same as HDR10.
The supposed improvements ( 12bit vs 10 bit colour, less posterisation) are impossible to pick when it takes a couple of minutes to swap between formats.
And as for converting HDR10 to LLDV, well, again I can see no difference.
Do people think they could tell which was which in a blind test? How can people claim this is a "game changer"?
I think I reached the limit of my "law of diminishing returns" in 2017.
The differences are subtle, but as Bruce points out below, it's the dark scenes where you can see a difference. What I've noticed thus far (in limited testing), is that the LLDV method is more plug and play, once you get it set up. With the DTM on my RS2000, Auto works about 70% of the time properly, but the 30% that doesn't, I have to manually pick the DTM setting (High, Medium, Low) to find the right one if the metadata is screwed up on the disc (some studios are worse than others in this regard). I have a Shield Pro coming next week and I'm curious how this will work with streaming services with DV titles.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce Lowekamp View Post
For me the biggest difference is in primarily dark scenes. It brightens those up just a little, so they’re still overall dark but much easier to watch than with a fixed curve. Previously a gamma curve that made the dark scenes look better would then lighten the shadows too much in brighter scenes. And yes, I’ve gone between dark scenes with and without LLDV.

On the other end, I used to have two gamma curves for peak 1K and 4K encodings. I no longer have to figure out which curve makes the highlights look right for the disc I’m watching. (not typically a problem but every once in awhile a scene would bother me, and I would need to switch curves)

I’ve been very happy with the automatic tone mapping in HDR content. I only have a few DV titles, but I think it was a significant improvement in The Matrix given the number of dark scenes.

But on an average brightness scene, I would expect very little difference. No reason for there to be major changes.

Bruce


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Bruce, I would agree with your assessment. My X750R (RS500?) and custom curves were WAY better than Gamma D, but DTM and LLDV are much better than the static curves in that projector.

David Vaughn Blu-ray Reviewer / Technical Writer Sound & Vision Magazine (Print & Online)
Dave Vaughn is offline  
post #1996 of 2220 Old 06-05-2020, 06:18 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Woof Woof's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 2,112
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 532 Post(s)
Liked: 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by IMDave View Post
Thanks @Dave Vaughn .

I have been stewing over how to ask this question for the past 3 days.

This thread, and the "original" thread by Dave H, are primarily about setting up the technical side of LLDV using our HDFury devices, but very little has been written about what it looks like.

My comments relate to my system which comprises an Oppo 203--> Vertex 1--> JVC RS500 ( with a Arve custom curve).

After the initial teething stages of getting everything set up correctly in the hardware ( Mark's custom EDID, importing Dominic's LLDV colour profile, configuring the JVC Macro) I have tried to do some comparisons.

UHD discs I own that are DV discs include " Knives Out" , "1917", "First Man", "Wonder Woman".

Your comment in your review seemed to sum things up rather well for me:



" Comparing the "regular" HDR10 image to the Dolby Vision one was not instantaneous by any stretch, but I watched various scenes from both versions back-to-back and found them equally appealing. "



Obviously, switching between "modes" makes things very difficult because changing from DV to HDR10 can take a couple of minutes by the time all the setting changes and re-syncs occur using a projector system.

My question is really: Are people genuinely able to see a discernible difference between Dolby Vision and HDR10 using a projector system capable of 100nits?

To me Dolby Vision looks EXACTLY the same as HDR10.

The supposed improvements ( 12bit vs 10 bit colour, less posterisation) are impossible to pick when it takes a couple of minutes to swap between formats.

And as for converting HDR10 to LLDV, well, again I can see no difference.

Do people think they could tell which was which in a blind test? How can people claim this is a "game changer"?

I think I reached the limit of my "law of diminishing returns" in 2017.


I’m not Dave

But here’s something that might work.

I run two sets of cables to my projector anyway.

On the first I run it direct from my AV processor monitor 1

The second uses my AVP monitor 2 through Vertex 2

That way I can switch fairly easily from Vertex 2 LLDV and standard HDR10.

I say fairly easily because I have managed to freeze the Vertex 2 a number of times when switching. (See previous post). But by and large it works.

My thoughts are
A. Oppo HDR10 vs Oppo LLDV - LLDV is better. For comparison, I’d suggest looking at Black Panther’s opening scenes (the Oakland and forest scene)

B. AppleTV4K HDR10 vs AppleTV4K LLDV - LLDV is better. Again use Black Panther on DisneyPlus.

C. Panasonic UB820 HDR10 with HDR Optimizer. Still the best version for me. Better than A. and B. I also can’t get LLDV from my Panasonic. Haven’t figured out why. The AppleTV4K and Oppo work fine.
Woof Woof is online now  
post #1997 of 2220 Old 06-05-2020, 07:05 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Mississauga, ON, Canada
Posts: 8,732
Mentioned: 189 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6281 Post(s)
Liked: 2640
Quote:
Originally Posted by IMDave View Post
My question is really: Are people genuinely able to see a discernible difference between Dolby Vision and HDR10 using a projector system capable of 100nits?
To me Dolby Vision looks EXACTLY the same as HDR10.
The supposed improvements ( 12bit vs 10 bit colour, less posterisation) are impossible to pick when it takes a couple of minutes to swap between formats.
Here are some comparison pictures of Ryan's color clipping patterns. There are two versions - AdobeRGB (if your monitor can display that), and sRGB. I had to desaturate the latter slightly as the colours are out-of-gamut for sRGB.

Note also that LLDV takes care of the varying metadata; the LLDV shot uses a 600 nits curve (and yet does not clip anything), whereas the HDR shot uses a 4000 nits curve otherwise the white highlights will all be clipped. Even with the 4000 nits curve, red is totally clipped about 63%.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	LLDV_08_Desat.jpg
Views:	63
Size:	425.9 KB
ID:	2737704   Click image for larger version

Name:	LLDV_08_AdobeRGB.jpg
Views:	62
Size:	439.8 KB
ID:	2737706   Click image for larger version

Name:	HDR10_09_Desat.jpg
Views:	65
Size:	318.1 KB
ID:	2737708   Click image for larger version

Name:	HDR10_09_AdobeRGB.jpg
Views:	64
Size:	395.7 KB
ID:	2737710  

JVC DLA-X550R; Denon AVR-X3400H; HD Fury Linker / Vertex 2; ATV4K; Sony UBP-X700
JVC Curves; Optimizing HDR;
Creating a basic HDR curve using Arve’s Tool;
Replacing JVC Bare Bulbs
Dominic Chan is online now  
post #1998 of 2220 Old 06-05-2020, 07:15 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
HDfury's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 6,944
Mentioned: 711 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5632 Post(s)
Liked: 1704
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woof Woof View Post
The second uses my AVP monitor 2 through Vertex 2

That way I can switch fairly easily from Vertex 2 LLDV and standard HDR10.

I say fairly easily because I have managed to freeze the Vertex 2 a number of times when switching. (See previous post). But by and large it works.
Which post are you referring to please ? People should know by now that we have special firmware available, once you have a good understanding of our devices, send pm/email or contact us via our discord server and we will provide you with special firmware.
If you can "freeze" anything or complain about anything on such special firmware, then you got the biscuit.
Woof Woof likes this.

Maestro: 4I/4O +4K HDR over HDBT +Autoswitch any sources +HDMI/ARC/eARC sound to AVR input +webserver. [Won Best Product Award]
Diva: 4I/3O +Ambient Light +Lag Tester +4K HDR > 1080p SDR +HDMI/ARC/eARC sound to AVR input +autoswitch +webserver.
Vertex2: 4I/3O +Autoswitch any sources +HDMI/ARC/eARC sound to AVR input +webserver.
HDfury is offline  
post #1999 of 2220 Old 06-05-2020, 07:17 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Dave Vaughn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Vacaville, CA
Posts: 6,482
Mentioned: 34 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1930 Post(s)
Liked: 2956
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woof Woof View Post
I’m not Dave

But here’s something that might work.

I run two sets of cables to my projector anyway.

On the first I run it direct from my AV processor monitor 1

The second uses my AVP monitor 2 through Vertex 2

That way I can switch fairly easily from Vertex 2 LLDV and standard HDR10.

I say fairly easily because I have managed to freeze the Vertex 2 a number of times when switching. (See previous post). But by and large it works.

My thoughts are
A. Oppo HDR10 vs Oppo LLDV - LLDV is better. For comparison, I’d suggest looking at Black Panther’s opening scenes (the Oakland and forest scene)

B. AppleTV4K HDR10 vs AppleTV4K LLDV - LLDV is better. Again use Black Panther on DisneyPlus.

C. Panasonic UB820 HDR10 with HDR Optimizer. Still the best version for me. Better than A. and B. I also can’t get LLDV from my Panasonic. Haven’t figured out why. The AppleTV4K and Oppo work fine.
Good idea...unfortunately, when I run LLDV "after" my pre/pro, I can't get it to sync consistently. I have to put the Vertex before the pre/pro and everything works great. It may be a bandwidth issue with both my cables (Audioquest 10m and fiber cable).

David Vaughn Blu-ray Reviewer / Technical Writer Sound & Vision Magazine (Print & Online)
Dave Vaughn is offline  
post #2000 of 2220 Old 06-05-2020, 07:36 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
nathan_h's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 9,854
Mentioned: 48 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3038 Post(s)
Liked: 2129
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
Here are some comparison pictures of Ryan's color clipping patterns. There are two versions - AdobeRGB (if your monitor can display that), and sRGB. I had to desaturate the latter slightly as the colours are out-of-gamut for sRGB.

Note also that LLDV takes care of the varying metadata; the LLDV shot uses a 600 nits curve (and yet does not clip anything), whereas the HDR shot uses a 4000 nits curve otherwise the white highlights will all be clipped. Even with the 4000 nits curve, red is totally clipped about 63%.
These are great screen shots that illustrate an advantage. It may just be my setup but I also notice that highlights are handled more nicely than simply using a custom hdr curve without lldv on my rs500.


My current setup.
Recommended podcasts: The Next Picture Show, the /filmcast, AV Rant.
nathan_h is online now  
post #2001 of 2220 Old 06-05-2020, 08:23 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Dave Vaughn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Vacaville, CA
Posts: 6,482
Mentioned: 34 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1930 Post(s)
Liked: 2956
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
Here are some comparison pictures of Ryan's color clipping patterns. There are two versions - AdobeRGB (if your monitor can display that), and sRGB. I had to desaturate the latter slightly as the colours are out-of-gamut for sRGB.

Note also that LLDV takes care of the varying metadata; the LLDV shot uses a 600 nits curve (and yet does not clip anything), whereas the HDR shot uses a 4000 nits curve otherwise the white highlights will all be clipped. Even with the 4000 nits curve, red is totally clipped about 63%.
Dominic,

How are you getting the Dolby Vision patterns to display? I bought them from Ryan, but I couldn't get the Panasonic to play them properly....do you know if they'll work through the Shield or do I need to burn the MP4 files onto a disc?

David Vaughn Blu-ray Reviewer / Technical Writer Sound & Vision Magazine (Print & Online)
Dave Vaughn is offline  
post #2002 of 2220 Old 06-05-2020, 08:33 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Mississauga, ON, Canada
Posts: 8,732
Mentioned: 189 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6281 Post(s)
Liked: 2640
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Vaughn View Post
Dominic,

How are you getting the Dolby Vision patterns to display? I bought them from Ryan, but I couldn't get the Panasonic to play them properly....do you know if they'll work through the Shield or do I need to burn the MP4 files onto a disc?
I use the Apple TV 4K and the app Infuse to play the MP4 files.

JVC DLA-X550R; Denon AVR-X3400H; HD Fury Linker / Vertex 2; ATV4K; Sony UBP-X700
JVC Curves; Optimizing HDR;
Creating a basic HDR curve using Arve’s Tool;
Replacing JVC Bare Bulbs
Dominic Chan is online now  
post #2003 of 2220 Old 06-05-2020, 08:45 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Woof Woof's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 2,112
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 532 Post(s)
Liked: 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by HDfury View Post
Which post are you referring to please ? People should know by now that we have special firmware available, once you have a good understanding of our devices, send pm/email or contact us via our discord server and we will provide you with special firmware.
If you can "freeze" anything or complain about anything on such special firmware, then you got the biscuit.
this one
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/465-h...l#post59703798
Woof Woof is online now  
post #2004 of 2220 Old 06-05-2020, 09:40 PM
Senior Member
 
IMDave's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Melbourne,Australia
Posts: 220
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 154 Post(s)
Liked: 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woof Woof View Post
I’m not Dave

But here’s something that might work.

I run two sets of cables to my projector anyway.

On the first I run it direct from my AV processor monitor 1

The second uses my AVP monitor 2 through Vertex 2

That way I can switch fairly easily from Vertex 2 LLDV and standard HDR10.

I say fairly easily because I have managed to freeze the Vertex 2 a number of times when switching. (See previous post). But by and large it works.

My thoughts are
A. Oppo HDR10 vs Oppo LLDV - LLDV is better. For comparison, I’d suggest looking at Black Panther’s opening scenes (the Oakland and forest scene)

B. AppleTV4K HDR10 vs AppleTV4K LLDV - LLDV is better. Again use Black Panther on DisneyPlus.

C. Panasonic UB820 HDR10 with HDR Optimizer. Still the best version for me. Better than A. and B. I also can’t get LLDV from my Panasonic. Haven’t figured out why. The AppleTV4K and Oppo work fine.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
Here are some comparison pictures of Ryan's color clipping patterns. There are two versions - AdobeRGB (if your monitor can display that), and sRGB. I had to desaturate the latter slightly as the colours are out-of-gamut for sRGB.

Note also that LLDV takes care of the varying metadata; the LLDV shot uses a 600 nits curve (and yet does not clip anything), whereas the HDR shot uses a 4000 nits curve otherwise the white highlights will all be clipped. Even with the 4000 nits curve, red is totally clipped about 63%.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nathan_h View Post
These are great screen shots that illustrate an advantage. It may just be my setup but I also notice that highlights are handled more nicely than simply using a custom hdr curve without lldv on my rs500.
Thanks all for your input.
Dominic's clipping pattern shots do indicate a difference, however the fact that the LLDV shots are on a different "custom" curve that he can create because he uses a Vertex2, which I believe I can't using a Vertex 1 and an RS500, might indicate that I'm at my limit.
I'll try the "Black Panther" opening scene and compare LLDV to HDR10.
Maybe my custom Arve HDR10 is just really a good one.
I tried comparing some dark scenes:
" Prometheus "-- ( non DV) converting HDR10 to LLDV
In the first 10 minutes when she first discovers the cave ,as she gradually removes the stones opening up from a very low
APL to reveal more shadow detail in the texture as more light enters with each stones removal.
"1917"-- ( DV)
Again first 10 minutes, when Colin Firth's General gives them the mission, delivered in a very dimly lit bunker with kerosene
lanterns.
In both these examples, I wouldn't be able to pick between formats.
With highlights:
" The Revenant"-- the initial Indian attack with flint guns firing and people falling into fires scattering sparks.
LLDV and HDR10 both give an amazing picture. No difference.

Maybe it's just my old eyes.😁 ( If so , I'm glad I jumped off the Envy bandwagon before I wasted my money)
Dave Vaughn likes this.
IMDave is online now  
post #2005 of 2220 Old 06-05-2020, 11:54 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Mississauga, ON, Canada
Posts: 8,732
Mentioned: 189 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6281 Post(s)
Liked: 2640
Quote:
Originally Posted by IMDave View Post
Dominic's clipping pattern shots do indicate a difference, however the fact that the LLDV shots are on a different "custom" curve that he can create because he uses a Vertex2, which I believe I can't using a Vertex 1 and an RS500, might indicate that I'm at my limit.
The Vertex 1 cannot automatically generate the custom DV string, but can still use any custom EDID that can be created offline.

I could’ve used the same custom curve in the comparison, but wanted to show that DV will prevent clipping, without manually switching between different curves.

The HDR10 clipping of the red channel cannot be avoided with any custom curve.
nathan_h and IMDave like this.

JVC DLA-X550R; Denon AVR-X3400H; HD Fury Linker / Vertex 2; ATV4K; Sony UBP-X700
JVC Curves; Optimizing HDR;
Creating a basic HDR curve using Arve’s Tool;
Replacing JVC Bare Bulbs

Last edited by Dominic Chan; 06-05-2020 at 11:59 PM.
Dominic Chan is online now  
post #2006 of 2220 Old 06-06-2020, 12:48 AM
Senior Member
 
IMDave's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Melbourne,Australia
Posts: 220
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 154 Post(s)
Liked: 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
The Vertex 1 cannot automatically generate the custom DV string, but can still use any custom EDID that can be created offline.

I could’ve used the same custom curve in the comparison, but wanted to show that DV will prevent clipping, without manually switching between different curves.

The HDR10 clipping of the red channel cannot be avoided with any custom curve.
Thanks for the clarification Dominic. I truly appreciate your contribution to our hobby.
I didn't know that the red clipping couldn't be avoided using any custom curve.
The prospect of creating my own LLDV custom EDID will just have to go into the "too hard basket" for the time being.
Going forward I believe I will set my Oppo HDR setting to Auto and run genuine DV discs as LLDV ( in all truth, just for the placebo effect of believing that there may be some benefit ), but continue to run HDR10 discs as HDR10.
Unfortunately, when the Oppo is in LLDV mode it loses a lot of functionality, in that I can't use the Zoom function and the OSD of AVR volume controls don't work to name just two.
If people can give some examples ( other than Cal. graphs) where I can see a real benefit of converting HDR10 to LLDV then I am happy to be convinced. Truly. But I'm just not seeing it at the moment.
Oh, and as for Rec709 material. I run that in Low lamp ( I hate having to run HDR in High lamp due to the noise, but I need the lumens with 1500hrs on my lamp these days) and will continue to run that way especially with my BR sci-fi discs.
Auto2 dynamic iris fade to black is so much better in Low lamp than it is in High lamp. So no LLDV there either.
IMDave is online now  
post #2007 of 2220 Old 06-06-2020, 03:02 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
HDfury's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 6,944
Mentioned: 711 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5632 Post(s)
Liked: 1704
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woof Woof View Post
Ok thanx,

The important thing here is that you cannot cascade several 2.2 repeaters in a chain and hope to play 2.2 content without any issues because the key exchange becomes too intense and eventually will lead into a blackscreen.
IF you have a video chain that support 2 repeaters and show no issue, you can be happy as many combo would already fail for that and starting from 3, nothing will be reliable anymore.
When you have such setup, ask special fw via email/pm/discord server, it will ease such situation a lot and you can then make infinite cascade at our device output without any such issue.

This is actually why none of the matrix/switcher from third party are compliant as they cannot pass the repeater test, their processing is way too weak to handle the key exchange requirement to validate such test.

This being said, i'm not sure it was the case in your experiment but possible cause for sure if it's not cable related.

Maestro: 4I/4O +4K HDR over HDBT +Autoswitch any sources +HDMI/ARC/eARC sound to AVR input +webserver. [Won Best Product Award]
Diva: 4I/3O +Ambient Light +Lag Tester +4K HDR > 1080p SDR +HDMI/ARC/eARC sound to AVR input +autoswitch +webserver.
Vertex2: 4I/3O +Autoswitch any sources +HDMI/ARC/eARC sound to AVR input +webserver.
HDfury is offline  
post #2008 of 2220 Old 06-06-2020, 07:17 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
nathan_h's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 9,854
Mentioned: 48 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3038 Post(s)
Liked: 2129
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
The Vertex 1 cannot automatically generate the custom DV string, but can still use any custom EDID that can be created offline.

I could’ve used the same custom curve in the comparison, but wanted to show that DV will prevent clipping, without manually switching between different curves.

The HDR10 clipping of the red channel cannot be avoided with any custom curve.
This is key. Thanks for pointing it out.

I downloaded EDID for LLDV that tells the player I have a display capable of 900 or 1000 nits.

And I have a custom curve that Chad created for content with 1000 nit peak content.

So I am able to preserve highlight detail and color (without sacrificing other parts of the picture) now on any Dolby Vision content, which is really nice.

I'm a simple man. I know other folks have multiple curves etc. I don't. And now I am sacrificing very little by using one HDR curve for all HDR content (especially since almost all the HDR content I watch is DV content).

It also means I can continue to use the Vertex1, which is nice. I love upgrading without buying anything new!
Dave Vaughn and Hawks07 like this.


My current setup.
Recommended podcasts: The Next Picture Show, the /filmcast, AV Rant.
nathan_h is online now  
post #2009 of 2220 Old 06-06-2020, 04:35 PM
Senior Member
 
IMDave's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Melbourne,Australia
Posts: 220
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 154 Post(s)
Liked: 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by nathan_h View Post
This is key. Thanks for pointing it out.

I downloaded EDID for LLDV that tells the player I have a display capable of 900 or 1000 nits.

And I have a custom curve that Chad created for content with 1000 nit peak content.

So I am able to preserve highlight detail and color (without sacrificing other parts of the picture) now on any Dolby Vision content, which is really nice.

I'm a simple man. I know other folks have multiple curves etc. I don't. And now I am sacrificing very little by using one HDR curve for all HDR content (especially since almost all the HDR content I watch is DV content).

It also means I can continue to use the Vertex1, which is nice. I love upgrading without buying anything new!
Sorry for my confusion , but when you say "downloaded", do you mean Scott's " Full LLDV+all sound" into Custom EDID #10 ? (In which case we are treating material in exactly the same way) or did you do like Dominic and create your own personal EDID that will allow you to input your peak luminance into the DV tab in the Vertex?( if I read it correctly, that is the only way to avoid the red clipping)
IMDave is online now  
post #2010 of 2220 Old 06-06-2020, 04:59 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Seattle,WA
Posts: 271
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 173 Post(s)
Liked: 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by IMDave View Post
Sorry for my confusion , but when you say "downloaded", do you mean Scott's " Full LLDV+all sound" into Custom EDID #10 ? (In which case we are treating material in exactly the same way) or did you do like Dominic and create your own personal EDID that will allow you to input your peak luminance into the DV tab in the Vertex?( if I read it correctly, that is the only way to avoid the red clipping)
Do you mean Mark's Full LLDV EDID? That EDID too will get rid of the red tint problem not just creating your own personal one.
Hawks07 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply High Dynamic Range (HDR) & Wide Color Gamut (WCG)

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off