Dolby Vision, including HDR10 conversion w/ DTM on Projectors? - Page 7 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #181 of 480 Old 11-21-2019, 11:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by nathan_h View Post
Interesting!

Okay, and the only way to force the ATV4k (my main source) to output LLDV is using the Fury device. One cannot just toggle a setting in the ATV4K?
Like your experience using the hdfury to trick your JVC, the hdfury is needed to trick the source device (atv4k) think its connecting with the Sony A1 display.

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post #182 of 480 Old 11-21-2019, 11:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Thoughts...

What we are seeing… I definitely think the Profile 5 layer is informing the choices for peak white and diffuse white which is what I would call the specular “wet look” I have observed. But there is no adjustment. Then again, if that is the intent of the post production work, why worry about tweaking too much?

My brief test drive of the lumagen offered direct control of that highlight performance relationship, and while being able to move off of the factory settings was doable, it wasn’t necessarily a better choice. They have it dialed in very well.

One area I’d like to see explored for the JVCs… how might a custom curve be tweaked to accommodate any of the inherent choices being made by DV LLDV? Are there parts of the curve which can be exaggerated to support the mapping DV LLDV is doing? I assume the way to test and adjust for this, would be to compare a straight HDR10 test pattern suite and then that same test pattern suite processed via DV LLDV. Observe how the EOTF changes and compensate to mirror the straight HDR10 performance.

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post #183 of 480 Old 11-22-2019, 12:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Bytehoven View Post
Like your experience using the hdfury to trick your JVC, the hdfury is needed to trick the source device (atv4k) think its connecting with the Sony A1 display.
Guess I need to update my Vertex.
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post #184 of 480 Old 11-22-2019, 12:42 AM
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Originally Posted by nathan_h View Post
Okay I follow that.

But then I strip out the meta data to make it easier to use my custom curve....and the DV becomes irrelevant in my case I guess.
What matters more than the metadata is the data itself, so DV is relevant.

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post #185 of 480 Old 11-22-2019, 01:52 AM
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hi,maybe can this hack work also with hdfury Dr HDMI 4K ?

more cheap device, there is :
UHD – CUSTOM TABLES AND DOWNSTREAM COPY
2 – SONY A1 – DV/LLDV Version 2

or DrHDMI4K utility can load EDID file.

Thanks

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post #186 of 480 Old 11-22-2019, 04:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Bytehoven View Post
I'm not being coy, but that is the question.

We have an idea of what a Dolby Vision end to end solution is doing. But DV LLDV is doing all of the processing on one end, the source device. Is that the same thing, if not, how are they different? Mark has touched on the pitfalls earlier.

I think you would see the same DV LLDV difference, benefits being reported.
Bytehoven this is crazy i love what your doing.. I have a few questions because i want to buy a lumagen but the money is just way too much man..

will this work for streaming like vudu

will this fix those few dark tittles that you cant watch with a custome curve? I use javs curves..Example the other day i rented scary stories to tell in the dark and i had to switch to my other projector and watch sdr.. Doesnt happen often but I'm tire of it.. So its either sell the 640 which i dont want to do or buy a lumagen which will break the bank.

and is this static tone mapping or dynamic.. Im not an expert at this so if the questions seem silly sorry about that but im trying to save a few thousand dollars..
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post #187 of 480 Old 11-22-2019, 09:19 AM
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Originally Posted by jorgebetancourt View Post
Bytehoven this is crazy i love what your doing.. I have a few questions because i want to buy a lumagen but the money is just way too much man..

will this work for streaming like vudu

will this fix those few dark tittles that you cant watch with a custome curve? I use javs curves..Example the other day i rented scary stories to tell in the dark and i had to switch to my other projector and watch sdr.. Doesnt happen often but I'm tire of it.. So its either sell the 640 which i dont want to do or buy a lumagen which will break the bank.

and is this static tone mapping or dynamic.. Im not an expert at this so if the questions seem silly sorry about that but im trying to save a few thousand dollars..
will this work for streaming like vudu
It will depend upon the player you are using to stream Vudu or other content.

The Apple TV4K will output LLDV when it thinks it is connected to a Sony A1 OLED. But other devices like the Shield, Roku, etc. might not support LLDV output. I don't know if they can or not since I don't own those devices.

I have been able to send LLDV to my JVC RS500 from my ATV4K for Apple TV+, Disney+, and Netflix content.

will this fix those few dark tittles that you cant watch with a custome curve?
There have never been any titles I have not been able to watch using a custom curve. But yes, in almost all cases the LLDV output combined with my custom curve appears brighter than HDR10 output with my custom curve.

and is this static tone mapping or dynamic.
It is Dolby Vision so it is more complex than HDR10 static tone mapping but less complex than MadVR or Lumagen dynamic tone mapping.

HDR10 tone mapping uses single static metadata values for the entire content.
Dolby Vision does scene by scene tone mapping based on metadata encoded for each scene.
Lumagen and MadVR do not use metadata but perform dynamic tone mapping by inspecting each frame.


Some players can force Dolby Vision for non-Dolby Vision encoded content like the Oppo and ATV4K can.

If the content is Dolby Vision...

Dolby Vision > player > LLDV > Display

If the content is HDR10...

HDR10 > player > Dolby provided code in the player converts HDR10 to Dolby Vision > LLDV > Display

Note: We have no way to tell as far as I know as to whether the Dolby provided SDK to convert HDR10 to Dolby Vision performs any frame by frame analysis during the conversion. If it does then the resulting Dolby Vision LLDV output should in most cases look better than the original HDR10 output.
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post #188 of 480 Old 11-22-2019, 09:52 AM
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Originally Posted by claw View Post
will this work for streaming like vudu
It will depend upon the player you are using to stream Vudu or other content.

The Apple TV4K will output LLDV when it thinks it is connected to a Sony A1 OLED. But other devices like the Shield, Roku, etc. might not support LLDV output. I don't know if they can or not since I don't own those devices.

I have been able to send LLDV to my JVC RS500 from my ATV4K for Apple TV+, Disney+, and Netflix content.

will this fix those few dark tittles that you cant watch with a custome curve?
There have never been any titles I have not been able to watch using a custom curve. But yes, in almost all cases the LLDV output combined with my custom curve appears brighter than HDR10 output with my custom curve.

and is this static tone mapping or dynamic.
It is Dolby Vision so it is more complex than HDR10 static tone mapping but less complex than MadVR or Lumagen dynamic tone mapping.

HDR10 tone mapping uses single static metadata values for the entire content.
Dolby Vision does scene by scene tone mapping based on metadata encoded for each scene.
Lumagen and MadVR do not use metadata but perform dynamic tone mapping by inspecting each frame.


Some players can force Dolby Vision for non-Dolby Vision encoded content like the Oppo and ATV4K can.

If the content is Dolby Vision...

Dolby Vision > player > LLDV > Display

If the content is HDR10...

HDR10 > player > Dolby provided code in the player converts HDR10 to Dolby Vision > LLDV > Display

Note: We have no way to tell as far as I know as to whether the Dolby provided SDK to convert HDR10 to Dolby Vision performs any frame by frame analysis during the conversion. If it does then the resulting Dolby Vision LLDV output should in most cases look better than the original HDR10 output.
Im willing to try your curves how can i get them.. Can i upload them through arve tools i dont know how to use the other program... Currently I only use the 1000 nit curve maybe i need one that will make things brighter for those movies that are darker.. I've never needed to use the 4000 nit curve..
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post #189 of 480 Old 11-22-2019, 09:56 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by claw View Post
Spoiler!


Thank you claw.

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post #190 of 480 Old 11-22-2019, 10:18 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by jorgebetancourt View Post
Im willing to try your curves how can i get them.. Can i upload them through arve tools i dont know how to use the other program... Currently I only use the 1000 nit curve maybe i need one that will make things brighter for those movies that are darker.. I've never needed to use the 4000 nit curve..
Do you have a HDR10 calibration disc?

If yes, one option to use with your 1000nit curve, is to play with the master contrast. Dominic has noted adjusting the master contrast does more than we might want, but I have been impressed.

1st calibrate for a contrast level that resolves the highest white clipping value DV LLDV passes thru. For me on the x990, that is the 712/724 or 987/1011 nits white clipping bars. I just start to lose these bars at +12 contrast. This is with both my ChadB normal and bright custom curves. Your 1000 nit curve may result in a lower max contrast value.

Next I set up a level that resolves the white clipping value 660/516 nits bar, for me that is +25 on master contrast.

I believe this to be the range of adjustment I have in order to compensate for how HDR10 titles are handled by the DV LLDV processing.

DV LLDV appears to be remapping all white values above 724/1011 nits, to below that max value. It also appears to be doing so in a way that preserves a white diffuse/peak white relationship we have come to understand and value, in order to offer the appearance of specular highlights. If there was criticism, this is one area where the choices DV LLDV is making, might be different than what we can do on a Lumagen or with MadVR. But as I said earlier, in so far as this highlights relationship is being passed on by virtue of the DV mastering meta data, maybe it is correct.

With regard to the adjustments I am making to master contrast, this is the basis of why I am curious about tweaking a custom curve, so that the master contrast could be left at zero, while working to resolve the white clipping values of the DV LLDV rendered HDR10 test pattern. That way larger portions of the PQ curve would not be altered as they are with the master contrast unless intended.

So, try it with you 1000 nit curve. I think it will be fine, maybe better than the 4000+ nit curves we would traditionally want to use for brighter movies.

Regarding a dark movie... this is where calibrating to 660/516 nit white clipping value can come in handy. Experiment with a title like BR2049, as an example of where resolving white clipping bars below 724/1011 nit resolution, produces good results.

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post #191 of 480 Old 11-22-2019, 10:24 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by looun View Post
hi,maybe can this hack work also with hdfury Dr HDMI 4K ?

more cheap device, there is :
UHD – CUSTOM TABLES AND DOWNSTREAM COPY
2 – SONY A1 – DV/LLDV Version 2

or DrHDMI4K utility can load EDID file.

Thanks
I have not seen the Sony A1 DV LLDV EDID as a stand alone .bin file anywhere in the HDFury EDID collection. This EDID was made available by way of a FLASH update on the vertex, and has been included in all subsequent flash updates.

Someone mentioned the possibility of someone with a HDFury device with the Sony EDID, could export/save it as a .bin file to be shared and uploaded to other HDFury devices lacking the file. Not sure where that went. I am curious if HDFury could add the Sony EDID .bin file to the EDID collection?

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post #192 of 480 Old 11-22-2019, 10:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Bytehoven View Post
Thank you Mark.

Overly dark shadow detail performance or exaggerated upper midtones and highlights are two things I have noticed on a couple of HDR10 titles.
Interesting. I own an Sony A1E and much like many are reporting some DV sources and titles are unwatchable due to how artifically dark they are made. If you turn off the DV in the player the image is watchable and you can see the video as intended. Netflix's "Sabrina" is a great example of this. 50% of the image is undiscernible on my TV.

I wonder if this flaw in the Sony implementation of DV is affecting here when the Sony A1 EDID is selected. Is there no other EDID we can chose that will allow this process to work the same and maybe avoid the "dark" DV video problem so many Sony A1E owners are complaining about.

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post #193 of 480 Old 11-22-2019, 11:11 AM - Thread Starter
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Interesting. I own an Sony A1E and much like many are reporting some DV sources and titles are unwatchable due to how artifically dark they are made. If you turn off the DV in the player the image is watchable and you can see the video as intended. Netflix's "Sabrina" is a great example of this. 50% of the image is undiscernible on my TV.

I wonder if this flaw in the Sony implementation of DV is affecting here when the Sony A1 EDID is selected. Is there no other EDID we can chose that will allow this process to work the same and maybe avoid the "dark" DV video problem so many Sony A1E owners are complaining about.
Tim... what are you using as the source device? I ask, because only a few BD players and the ATV4K are confirmed to handle DV in a way that supports the Sony A1. With the A1, and maybe some other Sony displays, the source device has to do all (or almost all) of the DV processing.

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post #194 of 480 Old 11-22-2019, 11:16 AM
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Originally Posted by claw View Post
will this work for streaming like vudu

will this fix those few dark tittles that you cant watch with a custome curve?
There have never been any titles I have not been able to watch using a custom curve. But yes, in almost all cases the LLDV output combined with my custom curve appears brighter than HDR10 output with my custom curve.
Interesting, you may have found a fix for a problem so many Sony A1E owners have been complaining about for a year. We simply can't watch many DV titles as they are way to dark on the A1E sets. Everyone is pointing fingers at others saying its a problem with Netflix, or a problem with Sony, Or a problem with hardware, etc etc etc. I don't care as long as it gets fixed.

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post #195 of 480 Old 11-22-2019, 11:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Bytehoven View Post
Tim... what are you using as the source device? I ask, because only a few BD players and the ATV4K are confirmed to handle DV in a way that supports the Sony A1. With the A1, and maybe some other Sony displays, the source device has to do all (or almost all) of the DV processing.
It doesn't really matter which device I use, I've tried two, the built in Netflix app into the Sony A1E and an Xbox. On the Xbox I can turn off the HDR and DV options and the video is watchable. Also I can turn off DV processing on the netflix app in the TV when I pause it and bring up the THUMBNAILS for fastforwarding or Rewinding. All of those Thumbnails show properly but the DV processed image is half missing. I calibrated the TV with HCFR and a I1 display pro.

I bought the I1 to try and fix the problem but it's a huge learning curve. I got this after reading the tutorial and tweaking Gain and Bias I ended up with a average dE of .49



Anyway I don't want to turn this into a "Fix Sony's A1E DV problem" thread. I just wanted to share what I thought was an interesing coincidence since you guys are using the A1E's EDID and so many people are experiencing a Few DARK TITLES just like us A1E owners are. Not sure if it's even relevant.
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post #196 of 480 Old 11-22-2019, 01:04 PM
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Originally Posted by claw View Post
will this work for streaming like vudu

It will depend upon the player you are using to stream Vudu or other content.



The Apple TV4K will output LLDV when it thinks it is connected to a Sony A1 OLED. But other devices like the Shield, Roku, etc. might not support LLDV output. I don't know if they can or not since I don't own those devices.



I have been able to send LLDV to my JVC RS500 from my ATV4K for Apple TV+, Disney+, and Netflix content.



will this fix those few dark tittles that you cant watch with a custome curve?

There have never been any titles I have not been able to watch using a custom curve. But yes, in almost all cases the LLDV output combined with my custom curve appears brighter than HDR10 output with my custom curve.



and is this static tone mapping or dynamic.

It is Dolby Vision so it is more complex than HDR10 static tone mapping but less complex than MadVR or Lumagen dynamic tone mapping.



HDR10 tone mapping uses single static metadata values for the entire content.

Dolby Vision does scene by scene tone mapping based on metadata encoded for each scene.

Lumagen and MadVR do not use metadata but perform dynamic tone mapping by inspecting each frame.





Some players can force Dolby Vision for non-Dolby Vision encoded content like the Oppo and ATV4K can.



If the content is Dolby Vision...



Dolby Vision > player > LLDV > Display



If the content is HDR10...



HDR10 > player > Dolby provided code in the player converts HDR10 to Dolby Vision > LLDV > Display



Note: We have no way to tell as far as I know as to whether the Dolby provided SDK to convert HDR10 to Dolby Vision performs any frame by frame analysis during the conversion. If it does then the resulting Dolby Vision LLDV output should in most cases look better than the original HDR10 output.
I can confirm the Shield 2019 and ATV4K both work with DV using Sony A1 and LG LLDV.

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post #197 of 480 Old 11-22-2019, 02:58 PM
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For DV on the Sony TVs you might want to try maxing out the gamma. I had the same problem with the image being too dark, saw some others were suggesting increasing the gamma and it helped. I had to tweak alot of the picture settings to rebalance the image but eventually got it looking pretty nice.

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post #198 of 480 Old 11-23-2019, 05:15 AM
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This is an interesting comparison. I don't know if the 203/205 can still force DV output in the HDR OFF/SDR mode. My Sony x800m2 has no option I've seen, but when my vertex2 arrives, I can give it another look.

The best way to think of it... Sony and Dolby had discussions about how to resolve the lack of Dolby Vision processing on some of their expensive displays, namely the A1 OLED. They arrived at the Profile 5 Layer spec (we have referred to as DV LLDV) added to the DV spec, and it is this Profile 5 Layer which informs the Player LED processing on how to handle the master Dolby Vision data layer. (mark please clean this up for me with better tech explanation. )
This may or may not make it clearer

(Ignoring processing Rec.709 or Rec.2020 as DV since this is carried out by Dolby's SDK and even the guys developing the firmware for the players aren't privy to what that does!)

DV profile 5 is a single 10-bit video stream in a Dolby proprietary colour space with luminance following a static PQ (Perceptual Quantizer) gamma. So this is what your players are spitting out when you spoof the EDID.

In order to decode it you need to process it in the correct colour space with the correct PQ curve.

In a Profile 5 compatible UHD BluRay player, the 10-bit base layer (Standard 2160p HDR10 movie) is processed internally along with the 10-bit enhancement layer (1080p video which represents the difference signal between the full 12-bit DV signal and the 10-bit HDR10 base layer) to create this 10-bit profile 5 video if the EDID dictates - this is "player led" processing.

If the EDID dictates profile 7 (full fat 12-bit DV) then the player just spits out the base layer and enhancement layer and the TV cobbles it together and you're getting the full 12-bit DV signal which theoretically should look pretty much the same as the master or the mezzanine it came from...

Profile 5 is purposely not cross compatible with any other standard while Profile 7 is, since the base layer is an HDR10 grade so any HDR10 monitor can use it.

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post #199 of 480 Old 11-23-2019, 05:56 AM
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^^ Maybe i am missing something, but are you saying it should be 10bit showing on both OPPO and Vertex info?

Because it is showing 12bit DV, as can be seen in pics on post 2 ?!?

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post #200 of 480 Old 11-23-2019, 06:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Nalleh View Post
^^ Maybe i am missing something, but are you saying it should be 10bit showing on both OPPO and Vertex info?

Because it is showing 12bit DV, as can be seen in pics on post 2 ?!?
A profile 5 stream is most definitely 10-bit HEVC but the player can put out whatever bit depth it likes as long as it's within the HDMI spec, so at 12-bit 422 it's just padding unless the player does some interpolation, which I doubt since there'd be no point and it'd mess with the Dolby spec.

The only way to get "true" 12-bit colour with DV is with full fat Profile 7 (and I think Profile 4).
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post #201 of 480 Old 11-23-2019, 06:19 AM
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^^ Noted

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post #202 of 480 Old 11-23-2019, 07:00 AM
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Originally Posted by markswift2003 View Post

DV profile 5 is a single 10-bit video stream in a Dolby proprietary colour space with luminance following a static PQ (Perceptual Quantizer) gamma.
Do you have details of what the primaries and white point are for this custom colourspace? With that info it is "relatively easy" to make a 3D Lut to correctly map that output to any display capabilities. Without correcting for the different primaries what folk are watching will likely be miles away from the intent with this method.

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post #203 of 480 Old 11-23-2019, 07:03 AM
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Originally Posted by KarlKlammer View Post
According to Light Illusion IPT is not a colour space but 'signal encoding'. Dolby Vision uses Rec.2020 colour space.
This is taken directly from the Dolby Publication

https://www.dolby.com/us/en/technolo...les-levels.pdf

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• Within the Dolby Vision context, a profile 5 bitstream must use perceptual quantization with reshaping for EOTF; uses Dolby Vision proprietary IPT color space for color primaries and color matrix; uses full range for range; and uses center-left siting for chroma sample location.
Dolby Vision proprietary IPT color space is similar to BT.2100 ICtCp, where I is similar to I, P similar to Cp, and T similar to Ct.
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post #204 of 480 Old 11-23-2019, 07:16 AM
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Originally Posted by bobof View Post
Do you have details of what the primaries and white point are for this custom colourspace? With that info it is "relatively easy" to make a 3D Lut to correctly map that output to any display capabilities. Without correcting for the different primaries what folk are watching will likely be miles away from the intent with this method.

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Exactly - but sadly no, Dolby don't publish it.

But according to what they do publish, it's similar to Rec.2100 so that would be a good starting point - so same primaries as Rec.2020 just a different EOTF, but we know it's a PQ curve.

Thing is, that will also be dictated by the EDID - one of the benefits of DV (when using a DV monitor!).

So colour wise, it shouldn't be far off at all, but since you have a source PQ curve meant for a monitor capable of say 1000nits on a PJ capable of say 80 or 100nits, you're going to have to mess with it manually to get anything like.

I read threads a long time ago where people were doing exactly this with HDR10 TVs rather than projectors, but I lost interest quickly and have no idea where they got up to..

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post #205 of 480 Old 11-23-2019, 07:42 AM
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Originally Posted by markswift2003 View Post
But according to what they do publish, it's similar to Rec.2100 so that would be a good starting point - so same primaries as Rec.2020 just a different EOTF, but we know it's a PQ curve.
“A profile 5 bitstream uses perceptual quantization with reshaping for EOTF” - that sounds very much like what people have been doing with HDR10 tone mapping for the last few years
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post #206 of 480 Old 11-23-2019, 07:44 AM
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“A profile 5 bitstream uses perceptual quantization with reshaping for EOTF” - that sounds very much like what people have been doing with HDR10 tone mapping for the last few years
Yep - exactly what I said a few pages back...
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post #207 of 480 Old 11-23-2019, 08:17 AM
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Just watched Once Upon a Time in Hollywood using ATV Vudu through Vertex2 using LLDV. Looked great and so far I haven’t made any changes to my standard HDR setting on my JVC X590R.

So colors are definitely very close that I didn’t notice anything really “off”. I do think the gamma curve could be improved some but I don’t have enough experience with calibration to know where to start.
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post #208 of 480 Old 11-23-2019, 08:52 AM
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Originally Posted by bobof View Post
Do you have details of what the primaries and white point are for this custom colourspace? With that info it is "relatively easy" to make a 3D Lut to correctly map that output to any display capabilities. Without correcting for the different primaries what folk are watching will likely be miles away from the intent with this method.
That was the question I asked LightIllusion. Steve's answer was already quoted.
Some things I saw with the Apple TV were indeed miles away.


By the way, I read the Dolby document.

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post #209 of 480 Old 11-23-2019, 09:12 AM
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So, if I am reading this right, this approach is "just" invoking a different EOTF out of the player?

I don't mean to dismiss that as trivial. Depending on how one's setup is configured etc that might be very useful.

On the other hand, Dominic and Mark voice thoughts I'd agree with, that the same goal could be achieved by altering the tone mapping in the display, from the sound of it. (Again, that doesn't mean this spoofing is useless but "just" a different path to improve things.)

Or is there more than an altered EOTF going on?
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post #210 of 480 Old 11-23-2019, 09:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nathan_h View Post
So, if I am reading this right, this approach is "just" invoking a different EOTF out of the player?

I don't mean to dismiss that as trivial. Depending on how one's setup is configured etc that might be very useful.

On the other hand, Dominic and Mark voice thoughts I'd agree with, that the same goal could be achieved by altering the tone mapping in the display, from the sound of it. (Again, that doesn't mean this spoofing is useless but "just" a different path to improve things.)

Or is there more than an altered EOTF going on?
In the previous approaches both the player and the projector use a fixed custom curve that may not be optimized for the movie, unless you use a UB820 that reshapes the EOTF (technically an EETF) based on the metadata, or use a Vertex to switch between different curves (if you have multiple curves loaded in the projector). Note that these are still based on static metadata, i.e., the same settings are used for the entire movie, even though different settings are used for different movies

In this current approach the player analyses the metadata and reshapes the EOTF like the UB820 does, but does it on a scene-by-scene basis rather than once for the entire movie.

This has far more potential. However, the reshaping of the EOTF is intended for a DV profile 5 display, so the remaining challenge is to find out what that EOTF looks like.
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