Dolby Vision, including HDR10 conversion w/ DTM on Projectors? - Page 74 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Forum Jump: 
 1016Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #2191 of 2234 Old 06-27-2020, 01:38 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
HDfury's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 6,962
Mentioned: 712 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5649 Post(s)
Liked: 1712
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Moore View Post
Man this is cool and confusing.

I have an ATV4K going into my receiver, which then goes to a Vertex 1, and finally into my RS500.

I can use the GUI to send the right EDID, and then switch to the desired format on the ATV4K... but I can't get a stable image?

It will flicker and then black out. The only thing that remains stable is 1080p60 SDR.

I'm assuming this is a limitation of the receiver, perhaps?

I was considering running the signal from the ATV4K into a splitter that sends the audio to the receiver and the video on to the Vertex... think that'd help?

Also I have attempted to read this thread and the many like it, but I'm still confused... I don't need a UHD player in the chain, do I? Or is that required for DTM?
You should export config with Vertex1 when you are trying and post it as attachment (see usermanual p43) From there, i can more likely solve the issue for you if its not cable related.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Moore View Post
Well unless the packaging lied... they are all rated for it. Just purchased three of them yesterday to get this set up. Which is why I'm thinking that perhaps the receiver (which is older) is not playing around.

I can get a 4K24 signal or 4K30 signal through it (which then flickers and drops out, intermittently), but if I tell the ATV4K to do 4K60, the screen goes blank and then the receiver background pops up, suggesting that the ATV4K has been disconnected. The only way to get the ATV4K to show back up is to unplug it and plug it back in.

But you're saying that the ATV4K would be automatically sending the 4K60... so I wouldn't need to select it... so maybe my EDID isn't set correctly, also.

I guess the simplest way to test that I've got it correct is to cut the receiver out until the video signal works perfectly, and then go from there?
Most cables certification and claims are just lie and yes they (most of them) are lying big time. You don't need to spend much on cables if you are not using very long length.
Get Kabledirekt from Amazon min 6ft/max12ft and you will be perfectly fine. (assuming its a cable issue, which i can't say for sure right now, need your config export first)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Moore View Post
Hmmm. Well I'd hate for one of these cables, or all of them, to not work... they weren't cheap and they all advertised the required capabilities.

I assumed that since my receiver is older, that it would likely be safer to put it at the front of the chain. But I'll see how it works without it before I do anything further. Thanks.
It depends on many sources you need to handle. May be give us more details on your setup and cable length.

Clearly the issue could be 2 things here:

1) cable issue (that's easy to verify by just forcing setup into lower bandwidth, the lower you go, the more stable it is = cable issue)

2) 2.2 CST1 HDCP key management from AVR (as that is failing from most AVR on the market) but there is solution for that, but once again, i first need your config export.

Maestro: 4I/4O +4K HDR over HDBT +Autoswitch any sources +HDMI/ARC/eARC sound to AVR input +webserver. [Won Best Product Award]
Diva: 4I/3O +Ambient Light +Lag Tester +4K HDR > 1080p SDR +HDMI/ARC/eARC sound to AVR input +autoswitch +webserver.
Vertex2: 4I/3O +Autoswitch any sources +HDMI/ARC/eARC sound to AVR input +webserver.
HDfury is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2192 of 2234 Old 06-27-2020, 02:52 PM
Senior Member
 
Dennis Moore's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 283
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 127 Post(s)
Liked: 24
Taking the receiver out of the equation did the trick.

So that leaves me wondering... best way to proceed without having to buy an all-new receiver?

What's the best device for simply stripping out the audio?
Dennis Moore is offline  
post #2193 of 2234 Old 06-27-2020, 03:42 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
HDfury's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 6,962
Mentioned: 712 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5649 Post(s)
Liked: 1712
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Moore View Post
Taking the receiver out of the equation did the trick.

So that leaves me wondering... best way to proceed without having to buy an all-new receiver?

What's the best device for simply stripping out the audio?
Just connect AVR at TOP OUTPUT and display at BOTTOM output

If problem, just send config export as asked previously.

Maestro: 4I/4O +4K HDR over HDBT +Autoswitch any sources +HDMI/ARC/eARC sound to AVR input +webserver. [Won Best Product Award]
Diva: 4I/3O +Ambient Light +Lag Tester +4K HDR > 1080p SDR +HDMI/ARC/eARC sound to AVR input +autoswitch +webserver.
Vertex2: 4I/3O +Autoswitch any sources +HDMI/ARC/eARC sound to AVR input +webserver.
HDfury is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2194 of 2234 Old 06-27-2020, 03:53 PM
Senior Member
 
Dennis Moore's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 283
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 127 Post(s)
Liked: 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by HDfury View Post
Just connect AVR at TOP OUTPUT and display at BOTTOM output

If problem, just send config export as asked previously.
I was on my way to the checkout line with an audio extractor when this solution hit me.

Thanks!
Dennis Moore is offline  
post #2195 of 2234 Old 06-28-2020, 03:31 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
markswift2003's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: UK, Europe.
Posts: 1,627
Mentioned: 55 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1107 Post(s)
Liked: 819
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
What does this mean, if the display can't produce true black?

On my current projector my black level is at 0.015 nits. With diffuse white set at 25 nits, everything under 5% on the scaled PQ curve is below the 0.015 nits level.
You still want the source to tell the display to produce black in the electrical domain regardless of how well the display produces it in the visual domain as anything above black is relative to the display's black floor.

Zidoo Z9S | Nvidia Shield Pro | HDFury Vertex² | 32TB mirrored storage
Denon AVC-X8500H | JVC DLA X7000 | Screen Research 9ft multi aspect ClearPix 2 ISF screen
3 x PMC IB2S fronts | 4 x PMC Wafer 2 rears | 4 x PMC Wafer 1 ceiling | 2 x M&K SS550 THX height | Rel Stentor III
A pair of slippers, a comfy sofa and a glass of 16 year old single malt
markswift2003 is offline  
post #2196 of 2234 Old 06-28-2020, 06:14 AM
Advanced Member
 
TKNice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 535
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 180 Post(s)
Liked: 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by HDfury View Post
Get Kabledirekt from Amazon min 6ft/max12ft and you will be perfectly fine.
What do you recommend cable-wise for a 15ft run to the projector?

Video: JVC RS540 w/Lens & 122" 2.35:1 CIH / HDFury Vertex 2 w/Dolby Vision
Audio: Marantz SR7010 / XPA-3 / UPA-7 Sources: Nvidia Shield Pro / Xbox One X
7. Ascend Acoustics Sierra-2 EX (L R C), Ascend Acoustics HTM-200SE (side & rear)
2. Subs: SVS PC-2000 & eD A3-300 12" / Sensory: Aura Pro Bass Shakers
4 HTM-200SE for Atmos/DTS:X Theater Pics / Desktop
TKNice is offline  
post #2197 of 2234 Old 06-28-2020, 06:17 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
nathan_h's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 9,859
Mentioned: 48 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3045 Post(s)
Liked: 2131
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Moore View Post
Hmmm. Well I'd hate for one of these cables, or all of them, to not work... they weren't cheap and they all advertised the required capabilities.

I assumed that since my receiver is older, that it would likely be safer to put it at the front of the chain. But I'll see how it works without it before I do anything further. Thanks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TKNice View Post
What do you recommend cable-wise for a 15 ft to the projector?
I'm using the Monoprice Premium Certified cables for a 20 foot run and it handles 4k60 444 fine.

In other words, the solution up to 25 feet does not have to be expensive, but it MUST have the premium certified badge/testing. Many cables claim some level of performance that is just fanciful, while charging four or five times as much.


My current setup.
Recommended podcasts: The Next Picture Show, the /filmcast, AV Rant.
nathan_h is online now  
post #2198 of 2234 Old 06-28-2020, 06:45 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Mississauga, ON, Canada
Posts: 8,742
Mentioned: 189 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6285 Post(s)
Liked: 2646
Quote:
Originally Posted by markswift2003 View Post
You still want the source to tell the display to produce black in the electrical domain regardless of how well the display produces it in the visual domain as anything above black is relative to the display's black floor.
That’s a matter of preference, just like some people use gamma 2.4 for SDR, whereas others use BT.1886 which raises the shadows by more than the black floor.

JVC DLA-X550R; Denon AVR-X3400H; HD Fury Linker / Vertex 2; ATV4K; Sony UBP-X700
JVC Curves; Optimizing HDR;
Creating a basic HDR curve using Arve’s Tool;
Replacing JVC Bare Bulbs
Dominic Chan is offline  
post #2199 of 2234 Old 06-28-2020, 07:20 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
HDfury's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 6,962
Mentioned: 712 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5649 Post(s)
Liked: 1712
Quote:
Originally Posted by TKNice View Post
What do you recommend cable-wise for a 15ft run to the projector?
new Kabledirekt 4K120 will work just fine for 15ft

Also you can check Zeskit, they have 1 or 2% 1 star review as well, should be extremely good too.

Maestro: 4I/4O +4K HDR over HDBT +Autoswitch any sources +HDMI/ARC/eARC sound to AVR input +webserver. [Won Best Product Award]
Diva: 4I/3O +Ambient Light +Lag Tester +4K HDR > 1080p SDR +HDMI/ARC/eARC sound to AVR input +autoswitch +webserver.
Vertex2: 4I/3O +Autoswitch any sources +HDMI/ARC/eARC sound to AVR input +webserver.
HDfury is online now  
post #2200 of 2234 Old 06-28-2020, 04:49 PM
Advanced Member
 
TKNice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 535
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 180 Post(s)
Liked: 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by HDfury View Post
new Kabledirekt 4K120 will work just fine for 15ft
Also you can check Zeskit, they have 1 or 2% 1 star review as well, should be extremely good too.
Thanks for the info. The custom firmware you sent me didn't help and I guess my current Kolife cables aren't good enough. Sometimes LLDV will pass for hours with no issues but then the screen will blank and when it comes back, has little amber colored sparkle dots that flash around the screen while the image plays. A vertex2 reboot will fix the issue, sometimes for only a few minutes and it will keep happening. Other times it will be stable for quite a while. I wouldn't expect that kind of intermittency but maybe something like triggering the OSD adds to the bandwidth? Who knows.

My system is set up as ATV4k > Marantz 7010 > Vertex2 > JVCRS540

Looking at the Kabeldirekt 4k120, I'm only seeing a 10ft on Amazon. For the Zeskit cables you mentioned, should I go for the 8k version to be absolutely sure I don't have problems?

Thanks!
Attached Files
File Type: txt VERTEX2-CONFIG-6_28_2020.txt (11.7 KB, 6 views)

Video: JVC RS540 w/Lens & 122" 2.35:1 CIH / HDFury Vertex 2 w/Dolby Vision
Audio: Marantz SR7010 / XPA-3 / UPA-7 Sources: Nvidia Shield Pro / Xbox One X
7. Ascend Acoustics Sierra-2 EX (L R C), Ascend Acoustics HTM-200SE (side & rear)
2. Subs: SVS PC-2000 & eD A3-300 12" / Sensory: Aura Pro Bass Shakers
4 HTM-200SE for Atmos/DTS:X Theater Pics / Desktop
TKNice is offline  
post #2201 of 2234 Old 06-28-2020, 07:02 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
HDfury's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 6,962
Mentioned: 712 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5649 Post(s)
Liked: 1712
Quote:
Originally Posted by TKNice View Post
Thanks for the info. The custom firmware you sent me didn't help and I guess my current Kolife cables aren't good enough. Sometimes LLDV will pass for hours with no issues but then the screen will blank and when it comes back, has little amber colored sparkle dots that flash around the screen while the image plays. A vertex2 reboot will fix the issue, sometimes for only a few minutes and it will keep happening. Other times it will be stable for quite a while. I wouldn't expect that kind of intermittency but maybe something like triggering the OSD adds to the bandwidth? Who knows.

My system is set up as ATV4k > Marantz 7010 > Vertex2 > JVCRS540

Looking at the Kabeldirekt 4k120, I'm only seeing a 10ft on Amazon. For the Zeskit cables you mentioned, should I go for the 8k version to be absolutely sure I don't have problems?

Thanks!
yes both zeskit or kabledirekt, try to get them in 8K version ,safer.

Did you try to bypass AVR for checking if it changes anything ? i would also try from TX1 to make sure it's not an ouput issue, and eventually another input and same for your AVR and PJ, then you have covered everything.
TKNice likes this.

Maestro: 4I/4O +4K HDR over HDBT +Autoswitch any sources +HDMI/ARC/eARC sound to AVR input +webserver. [Won Best Product Award]
Diva: 4I/3O +Ambient Light +Lag Tester +4K HDR > 1080p SDR +HDMI/ARC/eARC sound to AVR input +autoswitch +webserver.
Vertex2: 4I/3O +Autoswitch any sources +HDMI/ARC/eARC sound to AVR input +webserver.
HDfury is online now  
post #2202 of 2234 Old 06-29-2020, 05:59 AM
Advanced Member
 
TKNice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 535
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 180 Post(s)
Liked: 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by HDfury View Post
Did you try to bypass AVR for checking if it changes anything ? i would also try from TX1 to make sure it's not an ouput issue, and eventually another input and same for your AVR and PJ, then you have covered everything.
Yes, I bypassed the AVR last night for a few hours and the problem did not occur. This Marantz was updated to support Dolby Vision so it should be fine but that made me optimistic because it does seem to be happening more frequently now (maybe because I marathoned Dark on netflix this weekend ).

I put the AVR back in front of the ATV 4K and turned off one last piece of video processing it's doing (for the menus) so it's 100% pass-through. I'll go with that for a while and if I see the issue, I'll move on to TX1 on the Vertex and then other inputs on the AVR and PJ to see if those affect anything.

Thanks for suggesting some things to try and I'll go ahead and order the 8k cables if nothing else works. At least they aren't that expensive but it's going to be a hassle changing out the run to the projector.

Video: JVC RS540 w/Lens & 122" 2.35:1 CIH / HDFury Vertex 2 w/Dolby Vision
Audio: Marantz SR7010 / XPA-3 / UPA-7 Sources: Nvidia Shield Pro / Xbox One X
7. Ascend Acoustics Sierra-2 EX (L R C), Ascend Acoustics HTM-200SE (side & rear)
2. Subs: SVS PC-2000 & eD A3-300 12" / Sensory: Aura Pro Bass Shakers
4 HTM-200SE for Atmos/DTS:X Theater Pics / Desktop
TKNice is offline  
post #2203 of 2234 Old 06-29-2020, 07:13 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
HDfury's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 6,962
Mentioned: 712 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5649 Post(s)
Liked: 1712
Quote:
Originally Posted by TKNice View Post
Yes, I bypassed the AVR last night for a few hours and the problem did not occur. This Marantz was updated to support Dolby Vision so it should be fine but that made me optimistic because it does seem to be happening more frequently now (maybe because I marathoned Dark on netflix this weekend ).

I put the AVR back in front of the ATV 4K and turned off one last piece of video processing it's doing (for the menus) so it's 100% pass-through. I'll go with that for a while and if I see the issue, I'll move on to TX1 on the Vertex and then other inputs on the AVR and PJ to see if those affect anything.

Thanks for suggesting some things to try and I'll go ahead and order the 8k cables if nothing else works. At least they aren't that expensive but it's going to be a hassle changing out the run to the projector.
Try the FW i sent via PM, if no go and if it's not related to cables, the only solution is to put sources at Vertex2 inputs and your AVR at audio out or eventually between TX0 and PJ or even at TX1.

The problem seems 2.2 key management from avr and that is classic when you chain 2 repeaters or more, yet still totally undocumented and not commented in the industry.

Maestro: 4I/4O +4K HDR over HDBT +Autoswitch any sources +HDMI/ARC/eARC sound to AVR input +webserver. [Won Best Product Award]
Diva: 4I/3O +Ambient Light +Lag Tester +4K HDR > 1080p SDR +HDMI/ARC/eARC sound to AVR input +autoswitch +webserver.
Vertex2: 4I/3O +Autoswitch any sources +HDMI/ARC/eARC sound to AVR input +webserver.
HDfury is online now  
post #2204 of 2234 Old 06-29-2020, 09:25 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
nathan_h's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 9,859
Mentioned: 48 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3045 Post(s)
Liked: 2131
Quote:
Originally Posted by TKNice View Post
Yes, I bypassed the AVR last night for a few hours and the problem did not occur. This Marantz was updated to support Dolby Vision so it should be fine but that made me optimistic because it does seem to be happening more frequently now (maybe because I marathoned Dark on netflix this weekend ).

I put the AVR back in front of the ATV 4K and turned off one last piece of video processing it's doing (for the menus) so it's 100% pass-through. I'll go with that for a while and if I see the issue, I'll move on to TX1 on the Vertex and then other inputs on the AVR and PJ to see if those affect anything.

Thanks for suggesting some things to try and I'll go ahead and order the 8k cables if nothing else works. At least they aren't that expensive but it's going to be a hassle changing out the run to the projector.
What I found I have to do is keep the Vertex at my projector. I have the ATV4k go to my old Marantz (sr6010), then there is a long HDMI run from the Marantz to where the projector is, then the Vertex gets the signal, then there is a 2 foot HDMI cable from the Vertex to the projector.

This is a pretty stable setup, with only an occasional (once every few months) hiccup that is resolved by powering down the ATAV4k and Marantz and powering them back up.

Note that this is not the only way people wire these things up, but it was the combination that worked best for me.

I'm using these Premium Certified HDMI cables, which were far more reliable than some cables claiming to handle 8k.

https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=15430
TKNice likes this.


My current setup.
Recommended podcasts: The Next Picture Show, the /filmcast, AV Rant.
nathan_h is online now  
post #2205 of 2234 Old 06-29-2020, 06:58 PM
Advanced Member
 
sddawson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 509
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 404 Post(s)
Liked: 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
If you’re really worried about clipping of the extreme highlights. However, with most projectors the highlights past 1000 nits are highly compressed; I believe you had to adjust the curve even with Panasonic’s HDR Optimizer turned on. One may still prefer to use LLDV.
With the optimiser on, I could see a lot of flashing squares without adjusting the curve. And still some without the optimiser even. Of course, I can see more by adjusting the curve, at the expense of a darker picture overall.

I must say, I'm a bit concerned about how this double tone mapping works. Let's say we compare a max luminance of 500 with one of 1000. To get the same overall brightness, I would have to adjust the curve on the projector right, making the 500 nit one brighter? What difference would I expect to see between the brightness-matched pictures?

Can you please tell me which pattern exactly you use to check the diffuse white level? I do have a light meter, so this would be handy to brightness-match various settings. And do you tend to go for a particular diffuse white level when deciding on the mix of settings/curves?

I tried the Masciola and Mehanik patterns through my ATV4K. Like you, I could see that things weren't getting clipped like the S&M patterns were on my player when using LLDV. Unfortunately, the Oppo 203 doesn't seem to apply LLDV when playing back from the network, so I couldn't try the Masciola and Mehanik patterns on that. But there is something confusing about the patterns when played on an ATV4K. If I disable LLDV, the Vertex2 reports:

Rx0-SMPTE ST 2084 lum 1000/0.005 maxCLL/FALL 4000/1000

for every single pattern I've tried, 1000 or 4000 nits, Masciola and Mehanik. I'm playing using Infuse (not Pro). I'm wondering whether this has an effect when it comes to LLDV processing once turned on. Do you see the same HDR reporting? It certainly properly varies when I play iTunes movies with varying maxCLL's. And playing those patterns on my players without LLDV reports the correct values.
sddawson is offline  
post #2206 of 2234 Old 06-30-2020, 10:18 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Mississauga, ON, Canada
Posts: 8,742
Mentioned: 189 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6285 Post(s)
Liked: 2646
Quote:
Originally Posted by sddawson View Post
I must say, I'm a bit concerned about how this double tone mapping works.
The Panasonic Optimizer also uses double tone mapping, unless you output in SDR.

Quote:
Let's say we compare a max luminance of 500 with one of 1000. To get the same overall brightness, I would have to adjust the curve on the projector right, making the 500 nit one brighter? What difference would I expect to see between the brightness-matched pictures?
Most people use curves that do that, but it's not necessarily the case. The default Arve's curves use the same "overall brightness" (governed by the diffuse white BW) for the 1200 nits and 4000 nits curves; see attavched.


Quote:
Can you please tell me which pattern exactly you use to check the diffuse white level? I do have a light meter, so this would be handy to brightness-match various settings. And do you tend to go for a particular diffuse white level when deciding on the mix of settings/curves?
I use 50% stimulus level as diffuse white, same as Arve's Tool. I normally set it to 25 nits.

Quote:
I tried the Masciola and Mehanik patterns through my ATV4K. Like you, I could see that things weren't getting clipped like the S&M patterns were on my player when using LLDV. Unfortunately, the Oppo 203 doesn't seem to apply LLDV when playing back from the network, so I couldn't try the Masciola and Mehanik patterns on that. But there is something confusing about the patterns when played on an ATV4K. If I disable LLDV, the Vertex2 reports:

Rx0-SMPTE ST 2084 lum 1000/0.005 maxCLL/FALL 4000/1000

for every single pattern I've tried, 1000 or 4000 nits, Masciola and Mehanik. I'm playing using Infuse (not Pro). I'm wondering whether this has an effect when it comes to LLDV processing once turned on. Do you see the same HDR reporting? It certainly properly varies when I play iTunes movies with varying maxCLL's. And playing those patterns on my players without LLDV reports the correct values.
That seems to be what I saw as well, but I'll double-check next time I turn on the projector.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	1200_4000_arves.png
Views:	38
Size:	156.4 KB
ID:	2751188  

JVC DLA-X550R; Denon AVR-X3400H; HD Fury Linker / Vertex 2; ATV4K; Sony UBP-X700
JVC Curves; Optimizing HDR;
Creating a basic HDR curve using Arve’s Tool;
Replacing JVC Bare Bulbs
Dominic Chan is offline  
post #2207 of 2234 Old 06-30-2020, 11:56 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2020
Posts: 19
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Liked: 1
https://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/4007
LLDV test shot
23.976 FPS Gemini man
Stream LLDV /HDR conversion bt2020 422
Screenshot comparison 59.976
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	CA14F6C8-7025-426C-84BC-53703866EBC0_1593543163863.png
Views:	66
Size:	9.38 MB
ID:	2751210  
Dragon Fire is online now  
post #2208 of 2234 Old 06-30-2020, 03:07 PM
Advanced Member
 
sddawson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 509
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 404 Post(s)
Liked: 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
The Panasonic Optimizer also uses double tone mapping, unless you output in SDR.
Yes, absolutely.

Quote:
Most people use curves that do that, but it's not necessarily the case. The default Arve's curves use the same "overall brightness" (governed by the diffuse white BW) for the 1200 nits and 4000 nits curves; see attavched.
Ok. But do have any advice on how to choose between, say, a 600 DV max luminance (which you use), and a 1000 one? For a given “curve” on my Epson, the 600 will result in a dimmer picture, so I would change the curve to get brightness back. In what way would this be any different to using 1000 at the original setting? I suppose it’s an argument similar to the one about whether you should use a curve on a JVC that matches what you have max luminance set to, which I think you did to start with.

Quote:
I use 50% stimulus level as diffuse white, same as Arve's Tool. I normally set it to 25 nits.
Great - thank you. That’s BW in Arve’s tool right (going back to my JVC days, but things are getting rusty there)? Although with a 4 times multiplier that you use, doesn’t that mean 100 nits? I thought you got more than that.

Quote:
That seems to be what I saw as well, but I'll double-check next time I turn on the projector.
Thank you. I guess it concerns me that we might be setting things up according to the patterns on an Apple TV, but if the LLDV conversion does somehow take notice of maxCLL etc, the patterns might not be representative of what happens with things like Netflix and iTunes HDR movies. And I dont know whether Infuse always outputting maxCLL 4000 is a bug in Infuse or a limitation on apps on at ATV4K.
sddawson is offline  
post #2209 of 2234 Old 06-30-2020, 03:34 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Mississauga, ON, Canada
Posts: 8,742
Mentioned: 189 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6285 Post(s)
Liked: 2646
Quote:
Originally Posted by sddawson View Post
Ok. But do have any advice on how to choose between, say, a 600 DV max luminance (which you use), and a 1000 one? For a given “curve” on my Epson, the 600 will result in a dimmer picture, so I would change the curve to get brightness back. In what way would this be any different to using 1000 at the original setting? I suppose it’s an argument similar to the one about whether you should use a curve on a JVC that matches what you have max luminance set to, which I think you did to start with.
My preference is to let the ATV do most of the tone mapping, as unlike the custom curves (which can only change the gamma/EOTF), the ATV can adjust colour saturation etc as well. That's the reason I set Max Luminance to 600 nits, which is close to the "virtual nits" of my projector, and the projector doesn't do much tone mapping. With this recent discovery that the ATV can output more than 600 nits, I'm rounding the top of the curve so it does not hard-clip when this happens. The rest of the curve is still similar to the original 600 nits curve.

Quote:
That’s BW in Arve’s tool right (going back to my JVC days, but things are getting rusty there)? Although with a 4 times multiplier that you use, doesn’t that mean 100 nits? I thought you got more than that.
I set BW to 25 nits so that's equivalent to a 4x multiplier (the actual diffuse white level for the PQ curve is about 100 nits). I set BH to the peak luminance (150), but that does not affect the multiplier.

Quote:
I guess it concerns me that we might be setting things up according to the patterns on an Apple TV, but if the LLDV conversion does somehow take notice of maxCLL etc, the patterns might not be representative of what happens with things like Netflix and iTunes HDR movies. And I dont know whether Infuse always outputting maxCLL 4000 is a bug in Infuse or a limitation on apps on at ATV4K.
That's a valid consideration. However, I do use Infuse to watch my ripped movies, so at least those will be "optimized". For streaming, my curve is still "mostly" a 600 nits curve, so at most I will be "wasting" a little highlight when extending the top to 1000 nits.

JVC DLA-X550R; Denon AVR-X3400H; HD Fury Linker / Vertex 2; ATV4K; Sony UBP-X700
JVC Curves; Optimizing HDR;
Creating a basic HDR curve using Arve’s Tool;
Replacing JVC Bare Bulbs

Last edited by Dominic Chan; 06-30-2020 at 03:38 PM.
Dominic Chan is offline  
post #2210 of 2234 Old 06-30-2020, 04:20 PM
Advanced Member
 
sddawson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 509
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 404 Post(s)
Liked: 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
My preference is to let the ATV do most of the tone mapping, as unlike the custom curves (which can only change the gamma/EOTF), the ATV can adjust colour saturation etc as well. That's the reason I set Max Luminance to 600 nits, which is close to the "virtual nits" of my projector, and the projector doesn't do much tone mapping. With this recent discovery that the ATV can output more than 600 nits, I'm rounding the top of the curve so it does not hard-clip when this happens. The rest of the curve is still similar to the original 600 nits curve.
Interesting about colour saturation etc. Do you think this is a function of the Dolby conversion routines, in which case I suppose it should apply to disc players too? What’s the discovery about putting out more than 600 nits? I may have missed that.

Quote:
I set BW to 25 nits so that's equivalent to a 4x multiplier (the actual diffuse white level for the PQ curve is about 100 nits). I set BH to the peak luminance (150), but that does not affect the multiplier.
Ok. So once you have that curve, you can actually measure diffuse white at 25 nits at the screen too, with something like a light meter?

Quote:
That's a valid consideration. However, I do use Infuse to watch my ripped movies, so at least those will be "optimized". For streaming, my curve is still "mostly" a 600 nits curve, so at most I will be "wasting" a little highlight when extending the top to 1000 nits.
Ok. Please do let me know if you see Infuse always reporting macCLL 4000 in plain HDR made, when you get a chance.
sddawson is offline  
post #2211 of 2234 Old 06-30-2020, 06:33 PM
Senior Member
 
IMDave's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Melbourne,Australia
Posts: 220
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 154 Post(s)
Liked: 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by sddawson View Post
Interesting about colour saturation etc. Do you think this is a function of the Dolby conversion routines, in which case I suppose it should apply to disc players too?
LLDV seems to do some strange things with colour at times using my Oppo 203.
When I first started this "hack", I uploaded Dominic's LLDV colour profile that had been created for the Sony A1 EDID. But I found that using Mark's custom EDID , I wasn't seeing the "red push" that required the LLDV colour profile. Colours were accurate using my usual BT2020 profile.
That was until I watched the 4kUHD disc of " A Quiet Place" in LLDV on the 203. A noticeable "red push" that was corrected using Dominic's colour profile.
Very strange that it's not "one size fits all" with the LLDV implementation of DV.
IMDave is offline  
post #2212 of 2234 Old 06-30-2020, 06:42 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Mississauga, ON, Canada
Posts: 8,742
Mentioned: 189 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6285 Post(s)
Liked: 2646
Quote:
Originally Posted by sddawson View Post
Interesting about colour saturation etc. Do you think this is a function of the Dolby conversion routines, in which case I suppose it should apply to disc players too? What’s the discovery about putting out more than 600 nits? I may have missed that.
Discs should behave the same. “Putting out more than 600 nits” simply means some patterns will clip when I use the 600 nits curve.

Quote:
Ok. So once you have that curve, you can actually measure diffuse white at 25 nits at the screen too, with something like a light meter?
With Arve’s Tool, if you set BH to the peak luminance of your projector, the diffuse white pattern will measure the ame as what you specify for BW.

Quote:
Ok. Please do let me know if you see Infuse always reporting macCLL 4000 in plain HDR made, when you get a chance.
Yes, I see the same thing.

JVC DLA-X550R; Denon AVR-X3400H; HD Fury Linker / Vertex 2; ATV4K; Sony UBP-X700
JVC Curves; Optimizing HDR;
Creating a basic HDR curve using Arve’s Tool;
Replacing JVC Bare Bulbs

Last edited by Dominic Chan; 07-01-2020 at 05:13 AM.
Dominic Chan is offline  
post #2213 of 2234 Old 06-30-2020, 06:42 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
MOberhardt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Brisbane, Queensland, Australia
Posts: 2,186
Mentioned: 58 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1606 Post(s)
Liked: 1247
Quote:
Originally Posted by IMDave View Post
LLDV seems to do some strange things with colour at times using my Oppo 203.
When I first started this "hack", I uploaded Dominic's LLDV colour profile that had been created for the Sony A1 EDID. But I found that using Mark's custom EDID , I wasn't seeing the "red push" that required the LLDV colour profile. Colours were accurate using my usual BT2020 profile.
That was until I watched the 4kUHD disc of " A Quiet Place" in LLDV on the 203. A noticeable "red push" that was corrected using Dominic's colour profile.
Very strange that it's not "one size fits all" with the LLDV implementation of DV.
That is a native DV title too, to not an oppo HDR10 -> LLDV conversion related
MOberhardt is offline  
post #2214 of 2234 Old 06-30-2020, 09:34 PM
Senior Member
 
IMDave's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Melbourne,Australia
Posts: 220
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 154 Post(s)
Liked: 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by MOberhardt View Post
That is a native DV title too, to not an oppo HDR10 -> LLDV conversion related
Correct.
I haven't bothered taking the laptop back to the HT to swap the Vertex back to "Non-LLDV EDID" and compare whether the HDR10 implementation of the movie shows the same "red push" using BT2020 as the LLDV version does.
IMDave is offline  
post #2215 of 2234 Old 07-01-2020, 01:38 AM
Advanced Member
 
sddawson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 509
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 404 Post(s)
Liked: 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by IMDave View Post
Correct.
I haven't bothered taking the laptop back to the HT to swap the Vertex back to "Non-LLDV EDID" and compare whether the HDR10 implementation of the movie shows the same "red push" using BT2020 as the LLDV version does.
That will be an interesting test...
sddawson is offline  
post #2216 of 2234 Old 07-01-2020, 03:52 AM
Advanced Member
 
sddawson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 509
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 404 Post(s)
Liked: 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
Yess, I see the same thing.
There seems to be a lot of chat on forums etc regarding this. It does seem as though all third party ATV4K apps might be output with fixed HDR metadata, including macCLL of 4000. I couldn’t find any plain HDR Netflix titles, but did find some on other services, and they all did this. Rather disingenuous, when iTunes movies are output with varying, assumingly correct, metadata. But who knows whether this has any effect on an HDR->LLDV conversion?
sddawson is offline  
post #2217 of 2234 Old 07-01-2020, 06:34 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Mississauga, ON, Canada
Posts: 8,742
Mentioned: 189 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6285 Post(s)
Liked: 2646
Quote:
Originally Posted by sddawson View Post
There seems to be a lot of chat on forums etc regarding this. It does seem as though all third party ATV4K apps might be output with fixed HDR metadata, including macCLL of 4000.
If the issue is only with 3rd party apps then maybe you can try playing the patterns using the native TV app with Home Sharing..
nathan_h likes this.

JVC DLA-X550R; Denon AVR-X3400H; HD Fury Linker / Vertex 2; ATV4K; Sony UBP-X700
JVC Curves; Optimizing HDR;
Creating a basic HDR curve using Arve’s Tool;
Replacing JVC Bare Bulbs
Dominic Chan is offline  
post #2218 of 2234 Old 07-01-2020, 11:24 PM
Advanced Member
 
sddawson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 509
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 404 Post(s)
Liked: 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
If the issue is only with 3rd party apps then maybe you can try playing the patterns using the native TV app with Home Sharing..
Good thought. Interestingly, playing the Masciola white clipping patterns via "Computers" on the ATV4K from the TV app on Catalina still results in fixed metadata with maxCLL 4000. So there doesn't seem to be a way to check if metadata from an iTunes movie will affect any HDR->LLDV conversion.
sddawson is offline  
post #2219 of 2234 Old 07-03-2020, 03:53 AM
Senior Member
 
Bruce Lowekamp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Williamsburg, VA
Posts: 289
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 80 Post(s)
Liked: 41
I’ve been thinking about getting an ATV4K but waiting for the next version. Locking 3rd party apps like that sounds disappointing. Or does Apple TV integrate other subscriptions into the 1st party app so it doesn’t affect that much watching?

I’ve been watching mostly discs the last few weeks, but with Disney+ supporting DV->LLDV on the chromecast, I’ll still be LLDV today . Not sure I do enough streaming outside netflix and disney to justify another dongle.

Bruce


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Bruce Lowekamp is offline  
post #2220 of 2234 Old 07-03-2020, 04:06 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
MOberhardt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Brisbane, Queensland, Australia
Posts: 2,186
Mentioned: 58 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1606 Post(s)
Liked: 1247
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce Lowekamp View Post
I’ve been thinking about getting an ATV4K but waiting for the next version. Locking 3rd party apps like that sounds disappointing. Or does Apple TV integrate other subscriptions into the 1st party app so it doesn’t affect that much watching?

I’ve been watching mostly discs the last few weeks, but with Disney+ supporting DV->LLDV on the chromecast, I’ll still be LLDV today . Not sure I do enough streaming outside netflix and disney to justify another dongle.

Bruce


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
For streaming services, iTunes, native frame rate support Dolby Vision and lldv, you can not match even 80% the current Apple TV. Don't wait on something that does not exist From my perspective the only online failure of it is YouTube/ Google play movies is currently 1080p. That is KNOWN to be fixed in the soon to be released tvos version
MOberhardt is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply High Dynamic Range (HDR) & Wide Color Gamut (WCG)

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off