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Dolby Vision, including HDR10 conversion w/ DTM on Projectors?

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#1 · (Edited)
Dolby Vision, including HDR10 conversion w/ DTM on Projectors?

This is a HDFury DV LLDV EDID exploit of the Dolby Vision Profile 5 layer included in the DV spec for display manufacturers and models like the Sony A1 OLED.

This thread is duplicating Dave's experience using the HDFury Vertex +Sony x700 4k Player and Oppo 203 + LK990, to achieve DV/DTM and HDR10/DTM on a projector.

Dolby Vision, including HDR10 conversion w/ DTM on Projectors? Yes!

Here is the innovation premise...

HarperVision said:
The wait is over!!! I know everyone has wondered and asked and there have also been many questions as to whether we could get Dolby Vision on our home theater projectors. Which amazingly also gives an awesome side benefit......... DTM (Dynamic Tone Mapping) by auto converting your HDR10 UHD HDR BR collection!!! All this, without having to pay thousands of dollars/pounds on the likes of a Lumagen Radiance Pro or MadVR PC or Envy, nor the setup and tweaking hassles. This also means that you DO NOT have to have a newer JVC 4K LCoS with it's latest FW with DTM, nor wait for your specific brand to offer it as an "upgrade". You can enjoy this no matter the brand of projector you have right now, be it Sony, Epson, Optoma, BenQ, Vivitek or even an older JVC eShift or even the vaunted RS4500/Z1!!!
I will be using the following ...

JVC x990
HDFury Vertex 4K
Sony UBP-X800M2 Player

Apple ATV4K 64 I would also note I have learned and can confirm the ATV4K will accept the DV LLDV SONY A1 EDID with DV and HDR10 content streaming from ATV+.

I had hoped to do this test with a 203, because of what Vincent has reported about highlight detail in his comparison of the 203 and es1100es (same as x800m2), where he observed the sony was slightly crushing highlights.

Panasonic UB820 (for Static Auto Tone Mapping comparison)

I anticipate the 1st challenge will be configuring the Vertex and x800M2, to achieve the required handshake, to enable the player to recognize my x990 as a DV enabled display, and achieve the DV/DTM and HDR10/DTM functionality described.


I am still formulating what criteria I'll want to observe, to make a comparison between this innovation and the best HDR2020 and SDR2020 tone mapping I can achieve with the ub820.

What to Observe & Report:

- Observe highlight reproduction.

- Observe BT2020 accuracy compared to my chadB BT2020 profile.

- Observe if my chadB HDR2020 full range curve, is satisfactory to accommodate whatever DV/DTM or HDR10/DTM signal is passed along to my x990. Or will I need to switch to the onboard st2084 controls for tweaking, until I could tweak the curve?

- Observe if there are any control options for tweaking the DV/DTM and HDR10/DTM signal, based on the variations among titles others reference when calibrating for alt DTM solutions.

- Observe the gamma performance thru the luminance range, as compared to the chadB HDR2020 full range curve, and the ub820 SDR2020 with a 2.4 and 2.2 gamma selections.

- Observe if my master projector calibrations for Contrast, Brightness and Saturation need to be altered to restore a basic calibrated condition.

- Observe any changes to WB/gray scale performance at 6500k, 7500k and High Bright color temp settings.

*** Those are off the top of my head, so feel free to recommend any other observations I might have left out ***

I have no expectations at this point.

I am hoping we might find something useful which surpasses our current appreciation of what the ub820 HDR2020 and SDR2020 static ATM modes can achieve.

However, I have no expectation this proposed innovation will compete with the current state of the art DTM of MadVR or the Lumagen Radiance Pro.

Again, I hope this is a productive endeavor.


Byte

PS ... Coming up in Nov, I am looking forward to seeing the NX7 in action, as well as possibly making a DTM comparison if warranted. I hear it may be a 5/7/9 review courtesy of JVC. :)
 
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#2 · (Edited)
How To:

This section will be updated to include new info as it becomes available.

HarperVision said:
1. Acquire and install an HDFury Vertex (or similar I would guess, i.e. - Vertex 2, Integral 2, Maestro, Diva, etc.) and use the "Sony A1" EDID in the Custom EDID List. Force HDR10 on the output by checking the "Force HDR" box (to make your projector go into its HDR PQ mode) and set then send the metadata to whatever parameters your display works best in. (MaxCLL, MaxFALL, 1,000 Nits, BT2020, D65, etc.)

2. Use a Sony (X700, X800M2, X1100ES) or Oppo (UDP-203 or 205) UHD Blu-ray player, which can each force Dolby Vision output, and activate this mode. If using the Oppo, force Dolby Vision "Player Led" mode.

(Please note the x1000es was removed as it has not received a DV update by Sony)
Play all your favorite discs, be they HDR10 or Dolby Vision, and you will easily see the improvement! Your UHD BR player will confirm that you are getting the Dolby Vision mastering on the input and output when playing a DV disc, and DV at the output when playing an HDR10 disc, showing it's being converted to DV with DTM. (Do a long press on the "i" button on the Oppo remote to verify this).

I was able to immediately see the results with DV movies like Mortal Engines, Star Wars Last Jedi and Solo, Rocketman, The Meg, Aquaman, Justice League, Fantastic Beasts: Grindelwald, Black Panther, etc. and the best part, DTM with HDR10 discs like Blade Runner 2049, The Revenant, Guardians of the Galaxy 2, Lucy, et. al.

I also actually got HDR10+ to work as well, but the initial results weren't as good as DV. I will have to spend more time playing with that to see if there is something there.

OK, as far as the color saturation I mentioned earlier. I need someone else to test and see how they have to set their saturation/color control. I had to seriously lower mine on the LK990, but I’m not sure if this is projector specific due to the Brilliant Color, Color Enhancement or the DV conversions features.

I’ve noticed a couple times that I had to power cycle the Vertex to get DV kicked in. What I did was connect the USB power cord into the rear Oppo USB port so it powers up and down with the 203. I have the Vertex between the Oppo and AVR.

I have tested the Oppo's "HDMI Input Bypass" with DV from an AppleTV too, which also works, as well as the built in Netflix of the x700.

To See Info reported by players:

OPPO: A long press on the “i” (info) button on the Oppo remote will show you that you’re getting the DV encode on the input and output when it’s a DV source. It will also show HDR10 input and DV output when you’re doing that conversion.

SONY: The Sony players also show the DV source when you hit the display (?) button on the bottom right of the x700 remote anyway.



Menu - Screen Shots:

(See Thumbnails at bottom)
 

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#97 ·
How To:

This section will be updated to include new info as it becomes available.


To See Info reported by players:


Menu - Screen Shots:

(See Thumbnails at bottom)
Very interesting. What thread are those quotes from ?
 
#3 · (Edited)
Findings:

This DV LLDV DTM process is working with Dolby Vision titles and HDR10 titles!

Results from DV and HDR10 content with the Sony x800m2 -> Vertex (Sony A1 LLDV V2 EDID) -> Denon x4300h -> JVC DLA-X990 have been excellent. I find no issue with how any DV titles is reproduced. I do have questions how some HDR10 content is reproduced, which may benefit more from HDR2020/SDR2020 on the ub820, versus DV LLDV DTM on the x800m2. Three title examples... BR2049, Valerian and CE:TTK.

In these three cases, the question I have yet to resolve, because DV LLDV DTM and customary HDR10 processing look very different, which is more correct?

RB2049... x800m2 DV LLDV DTM has darker peak white lumens, versus what can be achieved using the ub820 Dynamic Range Slider (DRS). There is room to increase x990 master contrast with the x800m2, to achieve a similar result, but where as using the DSR on the ub820 comes with minor compromises as you move toward +12, increasing master contrast with the x800m2 will crush highlights at some point. For content mastered with MaxCLL below 1000 nits, there is room to push master contrast and preserve highlights.

Valerian ... I can't say DV LLDV DTM with Valerian looks wrong, but it is an example of content mastered in such a way as to cause some aspects of gamma response to be darker compared to HDR10 processing. And I note this title separately, because upper mid and highly reproduction is excellent, and the lower gamma response is not something the master contrast tweak fixes. But again, on this title DV LLDV DTM vs HDR10, I remain with the question which is more correct?

Close Encounters of the Third Kind ... with this title, the 4K HDR10 title remastering is something I have wondered about even when playing pack with UB820 HDR2020 or SDR2020. The remastering seems to be designed to exaggerate the look of the film stock and color timing Steven used. the DV LLDV DTM, takes this exaggeration a step or two further, making some scenes look over cooked and impacting highlights. But again, which is more correct?

In general, HDR10 content playback thru DV LLDV DTM, has had positive results. Later in this thread, I sorted my 4k collection. Subsequently, when I found I could increase master contrast on the JVC x990 from +2 to +12 or more, the ub820 DRS lost its advantage at helping to resolve dark titles.



Results from SDR1080 content with x800m2 -> Vertex (Sony DV LLDV EDID) -> AVR -> x990 If you leave DV engaged on the x800m2, the player will force a DV conversion with DV LLDV. Where as forcing a DV conversion with HDR10 has been good, DV conversion with SDR comes with many side effects. Side effects too numerous to entertain ever using DV LLDV with SDR content. So, on the x800m2, one should disengage DV when hosting SDR content, which is easy to remember and do, versus guessing how 4K UHD titles have been mastered.



Results from ATV 4K 64 -> Vertex (Sony A1 LLDV EDID) -> Denon x4300h -> JVC X990 have been excellent with DV content, namely watching episodes of The Morning Show and SEE. I have yet to check HDR10 content from the ATV4k thru the DV LLDV. I also have to see if anything is happening to SDR content, if DV LLDV is passing thru or forcing a DV conversion. The latter being a bad step.



Results from Panasonic UB820 ... DV LLDV will work with a source capable of DV output when playing DV content. However, I could see a difference between DV content on the x800m2 versus the UB820. DV LLDV on the ub820 was crushing highlights, and even reducing master contrast, I was unable to resolve some highlights which were resolved on the x800m2. HDR10 content on the UB820 with the DV LLDV engaged, passes thru as HDR, as the UBxxxx are equipped to support DV LLDV the way the Sony and OPPO players do.


I will continue to expand this post, moving more info here. Thanks for looking.
 
#101 ·
Findings:

This process is working with Dolby Vision titles and HDR10 titles!

Results from Sony x800m2 -> Vertex (Sony A1 LLDV V2 EDID) -> Denon x4300h -> JVC DLA-X990 have been excellent.

I have posted feedback later in the thread, but I will eventually edit, consolidate and copy all feedback here.

I will begin testing of the Apple TV 4k 64 for LLDV support. Just waiting on the ATV4K64 to arrive from Apple.
Glad to hear that its working now.
 
#8 ·
@zombie10k can you post your findings on this, here? Thanks.
Hi, yes here are some initial findings.

Setup:


  • Oppo 203 and 205, both running latest firmware
  • JVC RS600
  • HDfury Vertex
  • For this test I had the Oppo 203 -> HDfury Vertex -> JVC RS600 projector.

Observations:


  • If streaming UHD content from network storage - UHD HDR MKV's will not engage the 'DV' mode. They must be in the AVCHD folder structure
  • The Vertex will force the JVC into HDR mode. For the RS600, this means Gamma D. You can then later select a different gamma. forum member @Willie confirmed this setup forced his RS500 into Gamma D mode and his RS1000 into it's standard HDR settings which appeared noticeably over saturated.
  • This is NOT SDR/BT2020 - meaning the Gamma mode you must use has to be an HDR curve. Either factory or uploaded custom curve. In this case, I used one of my custom curves since Gamma D is always terrible.
  • DI is now disabled on the RS600 since it's seeing the HDR signal
  • I first looked at a few familiar scenes in Bladerunner 2049 and Lucy. It doesn't look quite right- overall flat looking image compared to baseline. Saturation was off in different scenes. Then I switched to the S&M UHD HDR demo disc and it's off by 3 galaxies. Highlights are way overblown and the whole gamma curve takes a hit for the worse. Color is off as well.

I will take a look further and see if there are any obvious ways to bring this back to a baseline. I don't want to burn up a lot of time since i'm focused on testing latest MadVR builds which looks amazing in comparison.

I am willing to try any settings that other JVC's owners come up. I even have 2 JVC RS600's here and could do an A/B split between MadVR and this experiment.










 
#6 ·
Interesting idea. It would be crucial to ensure that the metadata that you set for the DISPLAY in the Fury matches your own display perfectly. Also, PLAYER LED for a DV output doesn't work well and has issues on the color side, so results may vary.

With player LED output you are getting an HDR12 signal (12 bit HDR), so you would have to know exactly what the projector needs to be calibrated to to ensure that the signal is represented properly. This would be based on what the Sony (the display you are emulating based on the EDID) does for its base layer for Dolby Vision. That may be a few different things as this approach (player led) typically leads to both the player and the display doing some tone mapping (not just one of them). So without know what base calibration for this to overlay on, you may get disappointing results, but no reason not to try it for fun.
 
#7 · (Edited)
Thanks Kris... when approaching the mix of issues you mention, what order would you suggest they be addressed?

For instance, if I start with Chad's curve as the "display tone map", would I experiment with vertex meta data variations, toward a better match and getting best results?

Dave noted when trying to spoof other EDIDs, they resulted in major color shifts. While spoofing ths Sony A1 EDID removed the color profile mismatch. Might the Sony A1 EDID be taking into account the HDR12 HDR10 variations?

Is it possible, if the Sony A1 EDID was designed to have the display do as little as possible, the potential for conflicts which could undermine a beneficial result in this test, may have been reduced?

A less is more kind of thing. :grin:
 
#13 · (Edited)
I managed to get this working last night.

First, I don't consider this to be Dynamic Tone Mapping in the typical sense of the term. I don't believe there is any frame by frame analysis going on. Instead this is likely just normal LLDV output processing that uses the extra layer of scene by scene metadata present in all Dolby Vision content. I don't consider Dolby Vision processing to be DTM.

Second, I don't see the point in taking HDR10 content, having the player convert it to Dolby Vision using the Dolby SDK provided to player manufacturers, and then having the player perform Player-led Dolby Vision processing to output LLDV. You don't have any idea what scene by scene metadata is being injected when the HDR10 source is converted to Dolby Vision.

A better use in my opinion is to have the original Dolby Vision content on UHD Disc or Netflix/Amazon processed by the player to directly output LLDV. In this case the scene by scene metadata is from the original Dolby Vision source. And perhaps the resulting LLDV output could look better after scene by scene metadata tone mapping than you would get with tone mapping the original HDR10 source.

Oppo 203 > Denon X6400H > HDfury Diva > JVC RS500

Note: If your AVR does not support Dolby Vision pass through you may need to bypass the AVR.


Oppo 203:
Configured Dolby Vision as Player Led.
Configured HDR as Auto. You would only need HDR option set to Dolby Vision if you want to convert HDR10 content to Dolby Vision. Not when you are actually playing Dolby Vision content.

HDfury Diva (should be same for Vertex or Vertex2 or Integral2 or Maestro):
Selected the Custom EDID radio button on the EDID page.
Selected the Sony A1 LLDV V2 custom EDID for the Diva input that is connected to my AVR.

Note: I was also able to use Automix mode and mark the Force LLDV checkbox that is present in the Diva GUI.

I did not configure the Diva to inject HDR metadata. The only reason to do this would be to trigger your display device to go into its HDR10 picture mode. Since I can manually select an HDR10 User Mode in my RS500 configured with a custom Arve curve, I don't need to have the Diva send HDR metadata. The HDR metadata would just get into the way by forcing Gamma D and disabling the dynamic iris.

Note: I am certain that HDfury allowed the Disable HDR checkbox in combination with custom metadata injection in the Vertex that I used previous to my Diva so that the injected metadata did not trigger Gamma D in my JVC. But perhaps this was not implemented in the Diva.

Note 2: The HDfury JVC macros are not identifying this LLDV input. The SDR BT.2020 macro is triggered so I have to manually select my HDR10 User Mode. Maybe if I did inject HDR metadata the HDR BT2020 macro would be executed.


JVC RS500: Manually selected my 4000 nit custom Arve curve since I don't know how high the original Dolby Vision scene by scene metadata might be and I didn't want to clip highlights by choosing my 1000 nit curve.


Dolby Vision UHD disc playback:
- The Oppo extended information screen reported Dolby Vision source and Dolby Vision output.
- The HDfury Diva reported 4K24 4:2:2 12-bit DV input and 4K24 4:2:2 12-bit DV output. This is the format for LLDV (Player led Dolby Vision). TV led Dolby Vision is transmitted inside an RGB container and would be reported as 4K24 RGB 8-bit. So the Diva is confirming that it received and outputted LLDV.
- My JVC RS500 does not report that it is receiving HDR. If I leave it in an SDR user mode, the picture is washed out as expected if the content is actually HDR. If I manually select one of my custom Arve curve user modes, the picture looks correct.


Impressions:
The picture from Atomic Blonde and MI:Fallout both looked good to my eyes. I did not have time to do any comparison between the LLDV picture and the HDR10 picture of the same disc.

The LLDV output must be following the PQ curve since I have to use an HDR curve in my JVC to get the picture to look correct. This was surprising to me but on the other hand it does make it simple for those Sony TVs that couldn't do TV led Dolby Vision processing.

I don't see anything magical in all of this. There is no DTM as far as I can tell. It is just normal player led LLDV processing of Dolby Vision content using the extra scene by scene picture information present in all Dolby Vision content. The player tone maps using that scene by scene information to a 4K 4:2:2 12-bit BT2020 output that follows the PQ curve.

In fact, I am wondering why I never tried this before. HDfury quite a while ago mentioned in a post that some owners were sending LLDV to their non-Dolby Vision display devices.
 
#14 ·
I don't see anything magical in all of this. There is no DTM as far as I can tell. It is just normal player led LLDV processing of Dolby Vision content using the extra scene by scene picture information present in all Dolby Vision content. The player tone maps using that scene by scene information to a 4K 4:2:2 12-bit BT2020 output that follows the PQ curve.

Second, I don't see the point in taking HDR10 content, having the player convert it to Dolby Vision using the Dolby SDK provided to player manufacturers, and then having the player perform Player-led Dolby Vision processing to output LLDV. You don't have any idea what scene by scene metadata is being injected when the HDR10 source is converted to Dolby Vision.
Hi, thank you for the detailed feedback. I ended up using a 4000 Nit custom curve as well and resolved the clipping I was seeing.

I looked at more HDR10 content last night, I don't see evidence of DTM. I have a 2nd RS600 set up with MadVR and was able to run some A/B with the same source. MadVR is doing a remarkable job with frame by frame.
 
#16 · (Edited)
Finally up and running after flashing the vertex with latest firmware(s). Thanks cjakes.

I only have have 4 DV titles. (unless there are others not properly marked)

John3wick
SW the last jedi
Justice league
Ready player one
Valerian(?)

I've watch Ready Player One so often its a good title for me to just get a 1st impression.

Color looks very good.

Gamma performance ... over all it's darker than usual. Shadow detail is pretty low, and overall gamma looks tight but dark.

If I push picture tone, I will crush whites. If I push master contrast, I will crush whites. There appears to be a little more room to tinker with both to get back some overall peak whites lumens, but not nearly as well as pushing the dynamic luminance slider on the ub820 under HDR2020 or SDR2020 modes.

I'd be curious to hear regarding tweaking a new custom curve, did you also find you could push things hotter? Like the gamma coming out of the DV process is running higher than 2.4, with room to go further with the curve to get back into the 2.2 to 2.4 range?

I can see where some DTM love on the display side could bake in some additional peak white lumens without necessarily crushing things.

I did not tinker at all on the shadow detail yet, as I need to take a family break. I did briefly push Dark Level on the JVC to +7, but that was not enough. I might need to recalibrate black floor 1st with the master brightness.

I will say, despite being too dark over all for my taste, the over all balance from the lower mids on up is looking pretty solid, and down right attractive.

I tested Passengers, in the bar, and forcing DV versus letting it run HDR, I liked what DV did to the look of the contrast (maybe because it was a tad darker over all?). I have been playing around with the Gamma B on the JVC, and it's a step in that direction, although not as far on either the top & bottom like Gamma B does.

Anyway. I think I can see the potential of this hack, if there was just an additional output stage that applied some dynamic luminance push. Something maybe fine tuning a curve might be able to accomplish.

More playtime later tonight.
 
#18 ·
I've tested Spiderman homecoming, Aquaman, RP1, Justice League and SW last jedi for the DV content. MadVR is doing a noticeably better job with frame by frame using the HDR10 source.

For HDR10 content, I agree with Claw, I'm not sure I see the point or any real advantages here vs. a good custom curve or SDR/BT2020 from a UB820 or UB420.

Let me know if there's any specific scenes you think are different from the regular curves. I have both RS600's set up in a stack, one with the Oppo and the other with MadVR latest builds. MadVR is the frame of reference, it's really worth looking into and seeing first hand.
 
#19 ·
Looking at Ryan's hdr10 calibration disc, the DV process did not expand the reproduction of highlights above 1000nits the way optimizer does in both HDR2020 and SDR2020. I was thinking about getting his DV suite if that be a better fit for calibrating.

I'm wondering if any DV titles are mastered with MaxCLL above 1000nits?
 
#31 · (Edited)
OK, so given my report of the LLDV gamma curve, (probably following PQ - approximation?) is too dark on my my x990, I have been thinking about what options might available on the x990.

I tried looking at the black floor and my master contrast setting, as a way to restore shadow detail, and LLDV reference black is still the same at +2 brightness on my x990. so that is out.

Next I have tried using the st2084 WHITE Dark Level adjustment and its max of +7 is not enough. So I am tinking with going further by boosting Dark Level for RED, BLUE and GREEN. This in addition to boosting the WHITE, is bringing out more shadow detail on my brightness clipping pattern. I have not tried this new approach with content yet, but will try it with both a DV UHD title and some HDR10 UHD titles. And as I said in a previous post, this is still tweaking to the eye, to see if there is merit to going further into measuring and plotting the data.

Further, I downloaded Ryan's free sample DV test patterns, and while the HHDR10 color bar patterns I have look pretty good being forced to LLDV, the DV color bar pattern is under saturated. I find this interesting, because the level of under saturation in the DV test pattern, is not consistent with the color saturation of the few DV titles I have checked, and given the DV test pattern, it should be more apparent on the DV movie content.

Lastly, in an effort to get my old Dell Insperion awoken from the dead, I was able to get not only the vertex GUI running on it, I was also able to install JVC Auto Calibration software on it. So the next step would be for me to dive into custom curves. Not to get beyond the peak white lumens I can reach with the onboard st2084 controls, but to see about the shape of the gamma curve to work on shadow detail and up thru peak white.

Z has mentioned his working on a custom curve, and I am curious if he has checked to see how that curve tracks for HDR10 vs LLDV, and is LLDV is showing more of a gamma bump, like a PQ curve would?

Lastly... regarding color profile, I have a spyder 5 I can use with JVC AutoCal, but my old copy of CalMan 4.64 is not booting up. An older version of 3.5 is booting, but that is way old. :) So, even if I could reinstall CalMan 4.64, the Spyder 5 is not likely on it's sensor list. So rather than invest in a newer CalMan license, I'll see about one of the newer free alternatives. (HCFR ?).

In any case, I'm much further down the rabbit hole than I have originally expected, and it is a wee bit exhilarating. :)
 
#36 ·
Is it just me or does anyone else, when behind their AV rack at 3am, can't help having an epiphany for how to reroute things, and then gets totally jammed up due to running out of tie wraps?



:grin:
Always keep a bag wraps close to the AV rack for just that reason. Afraid I will forget exactly where each wire should go behind another.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk
 
#37 · (Edited)
OK... some additional observations.

When the x800m2 is set to DV OFF, the player seems to pass the full luminance range of HDR, which responds as normal to my normal curves and onboard st2084 settings. I previously post topping out at 4000 nits, but that must have been a fluke since that is not happening anymore.

When DV is set to ON, the range appears to be mapped to 1000 nit MaxCLL, not unlike the ub820 optimizer at 500 nit display luminance setting. Same goes for LLDV thru the vertex. The DV ON mode and LLDV both appear to be mapping to 1000 nits MaxCLL without crushing any content highlights I can see.

I experimented extensively with both calibrating to white clipping patterns and Ready Player One (RP1).

I'm not sure how to quantify it yet, but there is definitely something positive going on with the LLDV output.

Comparing the ub820 in HDR2020 and SDR2020 modes to the x800M2 in LLDV, there is something nicer about the LLDV signal. I'm not sure how to test if it’s something dynamic that is happening, or just the DV layer rendering the DV source better as LLDV, then when the DV layer is converted to HDR10 for use by the ub820.

While the x800M2 lacks the ability of the ub820 dynamic luminance adjustment, pushing the ST2084 controls will get me almost there as far as peak white lumens for viewing content. Yes, I can go further with the ub820 slider, but more is not necessarily better or more correct. This is where more lumens from the optical block would be the real benefit, and I can imagine what the LK990 might be able to do with the LLDV signal

Based on my observation of a white clipping pattern with LLDV being limited to resolving 1000 nits, I calibrated to this as peak white. I calibrated both my Chad regular and bright curves, by simply increasing master contrast to the point of just crushing the bar just below 1000 nits, which was increasing master contrast from +2 to +10. Master brightness for reference black was the same at +2. However, I could not adjust for the dark shadow detail inherent in the LLDV signal.

I also recalibrated my previous favorite onboard ST2084 settings to the 1000 nits MaxCLL. I was able to compensate for the LLDV signal dark shadow detail. I set up the st2084 red, green and blue at PT = 0, DL = +7 and BL = -3, then I set the st2084 white PT = +9, DL = +3 and BL = -7. I could take white PT as high as +14 with RP1 without crushing any content highlights and there was room to increase white DL to reveal more shadow detail. These st2084 settings had the similar mid-high gamma response of the chad bright curve, but much better and flexible shadow detail control because of the white, red, green and blue DL adjustments.

Based on my testing, I can see where a projector with more lumens to spare, could use the LLDV signal to get to a wonderful image even easier.

Now that I think I have chad curves and two st2084 settings dialed in for LLDV with RP1, I'll get to watching some the other DV titles as well as some HDR10 titles, and see how well my calibrations carry over.

Will running LLDV on the Sony x800m2 replace my use of the ub820? Not sure, but so far LLDV is looking different in ways that are edging out the ub820.

Edit… I test drove Passengers HDR10 with Chad’s bright curve at +10 master contrast and it looked fantastic, with shadow detail a little dark. My 1k st2084 setting with some DL boost was also good, but with the missing shadow detail restored. 
 
#38 ·
One section of RP1 that stands out among many under LLDV, when Parzivil is a racing backwards under the map on the 1st challenge. There are many instances of peak whites, (Delorean headlights and sky) and the very dark elements, which have a more dynamic, dimensional relationship under LLDV.

I am seeing a similar look with scenes in Passengers (non DV title), which look "flatter" on the ub820.

I'd love some guidance regarding how I might be able to better quantify what I think I'm seeing. Maybe if i had a better camera with solid manual controls, vs my less ideal S7, to be able to capture some contrasting images
 
This post has been deleted
#40 ·
So let a Brother know......


When one has a NX9 and a Panny DMP-UB900, which of the following applies or is ruled out:

  • You want to play Dolby Vision as it should be.
  • As there is no RS-232 line between the Equipment Rack and the Ceiling Mounted NX9, which HDFury Outboard Processor would be best considering it would be placed at the PJ's location?
  • Will such an arraingement work with other Digital 4K Steamed content?
  • Considering the DTM ability of the NX9, is such an effort considered worthwhile?

After the recent Firmware upgrade on the NX9, DV titles look better, but still far from the imagery on a DV-equipped TV
From the observations on this thread and the other forum, this looks like it may be an improvement over the static tone mapping of the Panasonic and its optimizer. But it doesn't sound like it's close to what the DTM solutions are doing.

So Panasonic - HDR Optimizer Off, JVC Frame Adapt preset selected is going to be the way to go for a JVC NX series projector.
 
#39 ·
So let a Brother know......

When one has a NX9 and a Panny DMP-UB900, which of the following applies or is ruled out:

  • You want to play a Dolby Vision title as it should be.
  • As there is no RS-232 line between the Equipment Rack and the Ceiling Mounted NX9, which HDFury Outboard Processor would be best considering it would be placed at the PJ's location?
  • Will such an arraingement work with other Digital 4K Steamed content?
  • Considering the DTM ability of the NX9, is such an effort considered worthwhile?
After the recent Firmware upgrade on the NX9, DV titles look better, but still far from the imagery on a DV-equipped TV
 
#46 ·
Assuming you have the UB900 and not the UB9000, I would be surprised if the older UB900 can perform LLDV output like the UB820, UB9000, Oppo and Sony x800m2 players can do. But it is possible that it got a firmware update to do just that.
 
#43 · (Edited)
As I continue to work thru my 4K disc collection, let me talk about Avengers: End Game. This title is not Dolby Vision as far as I know, but it is behaving like it is. As an example, during the opening when Tony and Nebula are on the Milano, the LLDV output is increasing the peak white lumens of many scene elements, while also maintaining deep blacks, ie expanding the dynamics of the image in ways the ub820 cannot. For instance when they are playing football, the lighting of the table they are playing on, is being made brighter under LLDV than the ub820. Same goes for the sparks when Tony is welding, and also when we see the Milano in space against the star field. The LLDV image if far more dynamic than the best I can do with the ub820.

I mention this because while its clear a DV title is made dynamically better under LLDV, some have said a similar expectation cannot be had with HDR10, but it appears that it can happen with a HDR title. When and why? I don't know. I'm about 3/4 the way through my 4k disc collection, and once I sort them as far as those which seem to benefit from LLDV and those that don't, maybe there will be some disc specs that will jump out as being contributory.

Forced player led LLDV is definitely working as Dave initially described. Not on every 4k UHD title, but on a majority of my collection so far.

I'd break it into several categories...

- when LLDV totally fails with an HDR10 title. ... Blade Runner 2049

- when ub820's best is better than LLDV. ... Thor Ragnarok, La La Land, Valerian

- when ub820's best and LLDV are too close to call. ... Blade Runner the Final Cut, Solo

- when LLDV is better. ... RP1, Passengers, Wonder Woman, the Great Wall, Oblivion, the Martian,

- when LLDV is much better. ... the Last Jedi, Avengers Infinity Wars, Avengers End Game

I have a dozen+ more titles to test, but these observations have shown me the effort was not a waste of time. But again, it would be nice to better understand the when and why. I assume it has to be the quality of the meta data, how the titles were mastered, or both.

Thanks Dave.
 
#45 ·
As I continue to work thru my 4K disc collection, let me talk about Avengers: End Game. This title is not Dolby Vision as far as I know, but it is behaving like it is. As an example, during the opening when Tony and Nebula are on the Milano, the LLDV output is increasing the peak white lumens of many scene elements, while also maintaining deep blacks, ie expanding the dynamics of the image in ways the ub820 cannot. For instance when they are playing football, the lighting of the table they are playing on, is being made brighter under LLDV than the ub820. Same goes for the sparks when Tony is welding, and also when we see the Milano in space against the star field. The LLDV image if far more dynamic than the best I can do with the ub820.

I mention this because while its clear a DV title is made dynamically better under LLDV, some have said a similar expectation cannot be had with HDR10, but it appears that it can happen with a HDR title. When and why? I don't know.
Oppo support when asked about the Forced Dolby Vision option replied that they don't know how it is accomplished. They just call the SDK provided by Dolby to perform the HDR10 to Dolby Vision conversion. So it is possible that Dolby is doing some magic when performing the conversion.
 
#47 · (Edited)
After getting my one year of free Apple TV+, I decided to try LLDV with the new 4K60 Dolby Vision series The Morning Show.

I have never been very satisfied with Apple's conversion of Dolby Vision to HDR10 instead of serving up a separate HDR10 source. So I decided to watch the three episodes released so far:

- Apple TV Dolby Vision to HDR10 combined with an Arve custom in my JVC RS500.
- Apple TV LLDV triggered by the Sony A1 LLDV custom EDID in my HDfury and the same Arve curve.
- Apple TV LLDV triggered by the LG C8 LLDV custom EDID in my HDfury and the Arve curve.

I didn't like the result when using the Sony A1 LLDV EDID. I thought faces had a reddish tint that I didn't like.

When I switched my HDfury to the LG LLDV EDID, I did not see the red tint. Faces and skin tones appeared much more natural. I also thought highlights were much more apparent and pleasing than when watching the converted HDR10 output.

It seems like the customized LLDV output for an LG OLED display is more compatible with my JVC and my custom curve than what the ATV4K would send to a Sony A1 OLED.
 
#49 · (Edited)
On the OPPO and Sony players, the INFO option shows the player is sending out a DV signal. The x800m2 definitely shows Dolby Vision in the info player info window when the Sony A1 LLDV EDID is engaged.

I just tested the ub820 thru the vertex. When the Sony A1 LLDV EDID is engaged, it will pass an SDR signal when in SDR2020 mode and an HDR signal when in HDR2020 modo with DV ON or OFF, but cannot be forced to pass a DV signal. So while the Sony A1 LLDV EDID does pass an HDR signal which looks relatively good, it is not the same as the Sony x800m2 sending the a DV 12b output, with the associated LLDV dynamics.

Are you able to check what the ATV4K is actually sending? Can the ATV4K be forced to send a DV signal? I expect what you are seeing and comparing, is an HDR output with both the LG LLDV and Sony LLDV options, but neither are sending a forced DV output signal.

I think, with either the LG or Sony LLDV EDIDs, the HDFury will pass the HDR signal as is, with whatever nuance you are seeing between the LG and Sony EDID options. I'm curious why there is any difference between the two EDIDs.

I do not have a LG LLDV option to the Vertex. The only LLDV option is the Sony A1 EDID.

To actually see a LLDV Dolby Vision output, the device must be able to send a forced Dolby Vision signal, otherwise I don't think we are talking about the same thing.
 
#51 · (Edited)
#53 · (Edited)
With X800M2 -> Integral -> Denon X6200 -> Radiance (pass through) -> NX9 (Frame Adapt), this is what I get.
I'm not sure, what the X800M2 info screen is suposed to look like with an actual LG C8.

It was only a very brief test with the LG C8 EDID. I still have to watch some more material. But first I have to solve the issue that I get no sound as soon as the Integral is in the chain.
 

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#54 · (Edited)
With X800M2 -> Integral -> Denon X6500 -> Radiance (pass through) -> NX9 (Frame Adapt), this is what I get.
I'm not sure, what the X800M2 info screen is suposed to look like with an actual LG C8.

It was only a very brief test with the LG C8 EDID. I still have to watch some more material. But first I have to solve the issue that I get no sound as soon as the Integral is in the chain.
HDFury has recommended using the Sony A1 LLDV v2 EDID with the x800m2.

I don't think the integral has LLDV support. The Integral2, vertex, vertex2, diva and maestro are the hdfury devices with LLDV support.
 
#67 ·
Bytehoven on AVS: said:
The DV LLDV hack is limited to source devices that support LLDV, which I listed as I understand them to be. Since the ub9000 can not be forced to do LLDV, hang tight.
Dave saw and replied

HarperVision... said:
I don’t believe this is entirely true. On UHD Dolby Vision capable players that do not have the capability to force Dolby Vision processing on the output like the Sony and Oppo do, then those will still be able to send out a native player led Dolby Vision signal (LLDV) source to the vertex, as long as they’ve received the proper firmware updates to do so. The only difference is that on the players that you can force Dolby Vision processing then you can also convert HDR10 sources to Dolby Vision as well.

So you can still add native DolbyVision support to a projector or display that technically doesn’t support it and only supports HDR10. You would just have to continue to use your current HDR10 solution for those sources.

Of course if it were me just starting out with this, I would just at a minimum invest in a Sony X700 which can force DV and will be at amazing Black Friday pricing in the USA. That’s the Sony I have here for testing against the Oppo 203 and it’s simply amazing. NFL football and Venom last night were utterly jaw dropping!!!
Thanks Dave.
 
#68 · (Edited)
Dave saw and replied
I don’t understand this. If the player does not “do” LLDV and simply passes it through to the downstream devices (which also don’t do LLDV), then who is doing the required scene-by-scene processing?
 
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