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post #1171 of 1271 Old 04-17-2020, 08:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Suppose that there's a vaccine for some disease that works say 80% of the time for everyone that takes it (this is common for how many vaccines work). For the other 20%, it does no harm but has no benefit. Now suppose that vaccine requires 70% of the population to be immune to wipe out a global disease. So for that vaccine to be effective, 87.5% of the population must take it to achieve a 70% herd immunity. If antivaxers are a large enough of the population, they risk the entire herd (not just themselves). In that scenario, I'm good with requiring anyone that's a part of the population to take the vaccine *by law*.

Bill Gate's isn't trying to profit off forcing people to take *his* vaccine. He has plenty of money - which is why he's funding this stuff with his money. Instead, he is expressing this concept as outlined above.
As I previously mentioned, more and more medical practices will refuse to take on patients when anyone in the family has not had certain vaccines.
As for Bill Gates motives, I won't speculate. But vaccines are viewed by physicians as necessary especially now thanks to Covid-19.

Pray for all of our healthcare providers, food manufacturing and delivery workers, all of whom are doing their best at great risk to help us survive the current Covid-19 virus crisis.
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post #1172 of 1271 Old 04-17-2020, 08:43 PM
 
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And GIs volunteered for duty, yet we glorify them, why not the healthcare workers?

FYI, 23 years+ active duty.
I’ll thank Military people because they put themselves in harms way for our Freedom. Healthcare workers, police, fire fighters, teachers...absolutely not. Why does everybody need to be thanked for Professions they chose? No way. When do we start thanking Starbucks Baristas, Walmart employees, Dentists, Snow Plowers, landscapers, investment professionals ??? This is so nauseating.
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post #1173 of 1271 Old 04-17-2020, 09:06 PM
 
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WOW! They did not plan on not having proper protective gear and being exposed to a lethal virus. Neither did food production and delivery workers. Some of us (me, too) have it quite easy simply social distancing.
Ok..So now that they know they have the choice to do something else right? Nobody is holding a gun to their heads to keep working. Risk is changing for them. Ok, I get it. The healthcare workers need to decide whether to continue or not. I can always chose to alter my path if something changes, right?
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post #1174 of 1271 Old 04-17-2020, 09:24 PM
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I’ll thank Military people because they put themselves in harms way for our Freedom. Healthcare workers, police, fire fighters, teachers...absolutely not. Why does everybody need to be thanked for Professions they chose? No way. When do we start thanking Starbucks Baristas, Walmart employees, Dentists, Snow Plowers, landscapers, investment professionals ??? This is so nauseating.
Just so I'm keeping track, you're not in the business of being thankful for someone risking themselves and their health so they can still bring in a meager income... Am I getting that right?

It's just not that difficult to be thankful. I don't think anyone is expecting you to throw a parade. Just a smile and a tip of the hat will suffice.
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post #1175 of 1271 Old 04-17-2020, 09:25 PM - Thread Starter
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I’ll thank Military people because they put themselves in harms way for our Freedom. Healthcare workers, police, fire fighters, teachers...absolutely not. Why does everybody need to be thanked for Professions they chose? No way. When do we start thanking Starbucks Baristas, Walmart employees, Dentists, Snow Plowers, landscapers, investment professionals ??? This is so nauseating.
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Ok..So now that they know they have the choice to do something else right? Nobody is holding a gun to their heads to keep working. Risk is changing for them. Ok, I get it. The healthcare workers need to decide whether to continue or not. I can always chose to alter my path if something changes, right?
Your emphathy overwhelms me. What happens if all the healthcare workers on the frontlines walk out? The good news for the rest of us is our country's healthcare workers are brave and selfless and are not quitting on us. In our politically polarized country that is good news!

Pray for all of our healthcare providers, food manufacturing and delivery workers, all of whom are doing their best at great risk to help us survive the current Covid-19 virus crisis.
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post #1176 of 1271 Old 04-17-2020, 09:58 PM
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Yes - Trump actually exists. Tell me what material facts in the Steel dossier, which are "harmful" to Trump, turned out to be verifiable. Even Comey admitted the dossier couldn't be verified.
Why are you suddenly adding a qualifier like "which are harmful to Trump?" I simply stated that there was info in the Steele Dossier that turned out to be accurate. You conveniently left out that part. I'm not going to jump because you say jump (find what info was harmful to Trump).



Also, how did the below end up as a quote of me in your reply? I never said this:


"Just because the FISA Court finally examined 29 FISA warrants and found the info provided by the FBI defective in each one doesn't mean that the FBI doesn't have a lot of honest good working FBI agents who tell it like it is - but those presenting the requests for FISA warrants obviously weren't doing it according to FBI and legal requirements. "

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post #1177 of 1271 Old 04-17-2020, 10:07 PM
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The models were based on best info available at the time, and were based I understand on about 50% social distancing. Turns out Americans were better than that 50% and fortunately, hospital turnout of Covid-19 particularly need for ventilators and beds has turned out to be much less than anticipated by the models. I do not agree with all (perhaps some) of the Trump bashing and blaming, there's plenty to go around - but I don't agree with those not cooperating with social distancing. I can understand some of the protesting, when Governor's Executive Orders go too far, but I can't condone not wearing face masks and keeping a distance from one another.

I wonder how many of us here at this thread have a small business going under, or who have lost our job or most of our income? And if this is the case, how we would react to the government closing our business or livelihood. But again, if they are going to protest, they should do this in a more protected manner with masks and social distancing, Unfortunately too many of the protesters probably don't believe the government period as our society has become so politically polarized.

I wonder why I don't see others changing their AVS signatures to support our healthcare workers risking their lives in trying to help make it safe for the rest of us?
I totally empathize with small business owners having to close down, temporarily or otherwise. However, at least some of them qualify for relief from the government. Some of them are choosing to close down and/or lay off employees instead of accepting the relief. The responsibility here lies with government. It needs to ensure that all small businesses remain solvent during this shutdown.
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post #1178 of 1271 Old 04-18-2020, 01:01 AM
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Suppose that there's a vaccine for some disease that works say 80% of the time for everyone that takes it (this is common for how many vaccines work). For the other 20%, it does no harm but has no benefit. Now suppose that vaccine requires 70% of the population to be immune to wipe out a global disease. So for that vaccine to be effective, 87.5% of the population must take it to achieve a 70% herd immunity. If antivaxers are a large enough of the population, they risk the entire herd (not just themselves). In that scenario, I'm good with requiring anyone that's a part of the population to take the vaccine *by law*.

Bill Gate's isn't trying to profit off forcing people to take *his* vaccine. He has plenty of money - which is why he's funding this stuff with his money. Instead, he is expressing this concept as outlined above.
I won't argue the numbers or the effectiveness. One also has to suppose (and I certainly hope) that this virus is "stable", unlike flu. But, I don't know if these particular viruses are more or less prone to mutation (at least, mutation sufficient to make the body / vaccine less effective, not all mutations will have that effect to the same extent, right?). So, I can't really answer that part.

Regardless, of his actual message, I'm still not "okay" with requiring a vaccine "by law". Make it required to do certain jobs (they do this now), or to go to school (also done), but if you tell an entire population "do this or go to jail" or "do this or don't ever come out of your house again" or "do this or you can only come out of the house on days where we hold up a blue card" then you're going to find yourself in a sea of both conspiracy theorists and civil unrest.

Not to mention, despite my personal thoughts about vaccines (which align with most medical experts, I'd say), this government can't tell me what I must put in my body. So, it's a moot point to begin with. So why even try to sell it that way? Make people understand why they need it and hope, through this education, they'll do the right thing. Besides, people always like something better when you convince them it was their idea!!


edit: and, I would say I believe Gate's efforts are more humanitarian than "let's burn the world to rebuild it in my image", but...like I said before, I'll probably never know the man and even if I did, I'm sure he hides that sort of agenda as best as possible...harder to reach the goal sans detection the more people need to be in on it, right?
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post #1179 of 1271 Old 04-18-2020, 01:25 AM
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I’ll thank Military people because they put themselves in harms way for our Freedom. Healthcare workers, police, fire fighters, teachers...absolutely not. Why does everybody need to be thanked for Professions they chose? No way. When do we start thanking Starbucks Baristas, Walmart employees, Dentists, Snow Plowers, landscapers, investment professionals ??? This is so nauseating.
So, if someone you knew was stuck in a flaming building and a fire fighter (*) pulled them out...no "thank you" needed? Probably the person should just figure, "meh, you did your job, so...hey, now you can get the f' out of my face and find the dude that takes me to a hospital?" Then, after that firefighter does that same petty saving-lives thing for many others, risking their own lives in the process, missing time from their families to do good, they deserve no appreciation? You know, in case one day it is your life they save.

(*) my uncle was a volunteer fire fighter and first aid rescue diver, my grandfather was the chief while he was younger...both missed many a family gathering for their second family and to risk their life to save someone else's, maybe I have a different perspective on their "jobs" than you.

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I’m probably in the minority here but I’m not going to thank anybody for doing their job. Sorry to disappoint you. If you feel good doing that then knock yourself out. Buy 10,000 Thank You cards and send them to everybody you know.
You were never thanked at your job for something you did? Any job you ever did in your life? I mean, hell, I bust my rump night over night to finish an assignment early and even I get a "thank you" from my boss -- no card, though.

Were you not hugged as a child?
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post #1180 of 1271 Old 04-18-2020, 01:25 AM
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I won't argue the numbers or the effectiveness. One also has to suppose (and I certainly hope) that this virus is "stable", unlike flu. But, I don't know if these particular viruses are more or less prone to mutation (at least, mutation sufficient to make the body / vaccine less effective, not all mutations will have that effect to the same extent, right?). So, I can't really answer that part.

Regardless, of his actual message, I'm still not "okay" with requiring a vaccine "by law". Make it required to do certain jobs (they do this now), or to go to school (also done), but if you tell an entire population "do this or go to jail" or "do this or don't ever come out of your house again" or "do this or you can only come out of the house on days where we hold up a blue card" then you're going to find yourself in a sea of both conspiracy theorists and civil unrest.

Not to mention, despite my personal thoughts about vaccines (which align with most medical experts, I'd say), this government can't tell me what I must put in my body. So, it's a moot point to begin with. So why even try to sell it that way? Make people understand why they need it and hope, through this education, they'll do the right thing. Besides, people always like something better when you convince them it was their idea!!


edit: and, I would say I believe Gate's efforts are more humanitarian than "let's burn the world to rebuild it in my image", but...like I said before, I'll probably never know the man and even if I did, I'm sure he hides that sort of agenda as best as possible...harder to reach the goal sans detection the more people need to be in on it, right?
Civil liberties don't give someone the right to harm everyone else around them. In this case, that's what refusing to take the vaccine would be. Perhaps we will get lucky and the actual vaccine will be 100% effective for those that take it. That way those that are too stupid to take it can just be harming themselves.

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post #1181 of 1271 Old 04-18-2020, 01:38 AM
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Civil liberties don't give someone the right to harm everyone else around them. In this case, that's what refusing to take the vaccine would be. Perhaps we will get lucky and the actual vaccine will be 100% effective for those that take it. That way those that are too stupid to take it can just be harming themselves.
I agree, your liberties stop where mine begin. However, you still have a right to carry a gun that can kill me, until you point it at me and fire. So, if you don't want the vaccine (thus you're possibly carrying a gun), you may just need to wear a mask (so you don't pull its trigger). Problem "solved".

Now we just need a way to figure out who "should be wearing masks". There are some ideas about that, right? Like, immunity bands, or maybe a smart-card that one can carry on them to "prove" they don't need a mask before entering any close-quarters establishment where social distances >= 6' cannot be reasonably expected.

Then we start a designer mask making business for all the people who don't want the vaccine (but still want to go out)! Hell, I bet those companies lean hard on the media to scare the crap out of you about the safety of the vaccine, too! I mean, they want market share!

See, that's American ingenuity at work, right?

Actually, to be honest, I almost can't tell how serious this post is to be taken.... It sounds as "genius" (for America, land of the free) as it does "dumb as hell". However, assuming the "designer masks" work well enough to keep the virus from spreading...well, at least it gives people "choice" -- vaccine + proof or mask (or stay home or away from places that require the proof of vaccination). That's American rather than the draconian solution you outline.
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post #1182 of 1271 Old 04-18-2020, 01:45 AM
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I agree, your liberties stop where mine begin. However, you still have a right to carry a gun that can kill me, until you point it at me and fire. So, if you don't want the vaccine (thus you're possibly carrying a gun), you may just need to wear a mask (so you don't pull its trigger). Problem "solved".
No, not "problem solved". The virus still manages to spread in countries (like in Asia) where everyone always wears masks. So masks help but are not a complete solution. The carrying a gun example doesn't seem like a good match here. Someone carrying a gun can decide whether or not to use it. The COVID virus is transmitted via asymptomatic people that have no control over whether or not they're spreading it.

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post #1183 of 1271 Old 04-18-2020, 01:47 AM
 
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Healthcare workers CHOSE to go into that Profession. Did they ask you or I about that? Please. Give it a rest.
Wow. Since our armed services are all volunteer these days when you pass by a funeral for a fallen soldier do you go walk right up to casket and pronounce " He chose this. Move along. He knew the risks." ?

Honestly people can disagree about politics but I cannot even fathom having such a callous disregard for the true heroes like you have exhibited. I sure hope you explain this to the hospital personnel when they commence trying to save your life. Good luck with that.

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post #1184 of 1271 Old 04-18-2020, 01:49 AM
 
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And GIs volunteered for duty, yet we glorify them, why not the healthcare workers?



FYI, 23 years+ active duty.
Thank you for protecting our freedoms. God bless. Volunteering only makes you and the healthcare professionals more of a hero not less.

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post #1185 of 1271 Old 04-18-2020, 01:56 AM
 
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That just meant everyone's mind perceives empathy differently. It's not a dig at your intelligence.
Some people have zero empathy. Many of them are psychopaths. Unfortunately on the surface it is hard to distinguish them from normal human beings. Always nice when they reveal themselves so blatantly.

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post #1186 of 1271 Old 04-18-2020, 02:05 AM
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No, not "problem solved". The virus still manages to spread in countries (like in Asia) where everyone always wears masks. So masks help but are not a complete solution. The carrying a gun example doesn't seem like a good match here. Someone carrying a gun can decide whether or not to use it. The COVID virus is transmitted via asymptomatic people that have no control over whether or not they're spreading it.
I don't think you read my whole post.... But, fine, stop there...I further clarified the solution needs to be bigger than just "masks".

At this point, I'll question "why don't the masks work" because for my solution to "work" "designer masks" (which, may be more than just whatever masks they wear in Asia) need to be effective against viral transmission and certified as such.

Now, people still need to be careful with their hand-to-face disorders. But, that's on them; learn not to touch crap and put your hands in your mouth or rub your eyes. Last I checked, being able to do that (a habit that I, myself, have a hard time breaking) isn't exactly a guaranteed right, either.

In fact, I'll lose the safety of touching my face with dirty hands (something I can control) before I'll lose the right to control what I put in my body, thanks!

But, let's see if preventing transmission through air (designer masks) and behavioral changes (sorry, brah, you may need to learn to control your face-hand issues or get your vaccine on) is sufficient. How else can these viruses spread? Blood -- well, HIV doesn't require me to stay at home. Reproductive fluids...humm, same. I don't know of any that leak through the skin, yet.

So...pretty much, it's hand-to-face and breathing it in that we need to "protect" against. Best I can tell, we've taken care of the other transmission mechanisms with pre-existing laws. Like: don't put your reproductive fluid in someone that doesn't want it and try not to stick them with something they don't want to be stuck with, especially not if that something has your blood on it -- these things tend to be illegal already.

Unfortunately, breathing and sneezing on people isn't illegal and often happens accidentally in proximity of others.
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Nobody cares about your feelings. Welcome to the real World Sparky.
You don't care about people's feelings. That is your world. Luckily for the rest of us their are plenty of people who do. I have a name for those people: human beings. Not that you will read it but this is a good article about people who lack empathy.

https://exploringyourmind.com/people-lack-empathy/

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post #1188 of 1271 Old 04-18-2020, 02:48 AM
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No, not "problem solved". The virus still manages to spread in countries (like in Asia) where everyone always wears masks. So masks help but are not a complete solution. The carrying a gun example doesn't seem like a good match here. Someone carrying a gun can decide whether or not to use it. The COVID virus is transmitted via asymptomatic people that have no control over whether or not they're spreading it.


I thank the lord that in Australia we don’t carry guns. Our laws are strict. Stay safe all
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post #1189 of 1271 Old 04-18-2020, 03:15 AM
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I’ll thank Military people because they put themselves in harms way for our Freedom. Healthcare workers, police, fire fighters, teachers...absolutely not. Why does everybody need to be thanked for Professions they chose? No way. When do we start thanking Starbucks Baristas, Walmart employees, Dentists, Snow Plowers, landscapers, investment professionals ??? This is so nauseating.
I have no problem thanking grocery store workers. They’re exposed to a lot of people and all they have is a plastic barrier and cloth mask for ppe.

But, I always tried to say ‘thank you‘ before all this happened as it is the polite thing to do.

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post #1190 of 1271 Old 04-18-2020, 03:58 AM - Thread Starter
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I have no problem thanking grocery store workers. They’re exposed to a lot of people and all they have is a plastic barrier and cloth mask for ppe.

But, I always tried to say ‘thank you‘ before all this happened as it is the polite thing to do.
I've not only always said a thank you to waiters, waitresses, grocery store clerks (now delivery folks), etc. but I've always taken at least a few seconds to inquire about their health, family, inquire and encourage re education, etc. It doesn't cost one anything to be nice but often has a nice positive impact because too many folks don't take those extra seconds, which is a shame. And 17 months ago when I was hospitalized for 4 days, I got to know all of the nurses and medical assistants quite well - we had a good time - I've always said that IF I die in a hospital, I will go out happy and making those helping me smile and laugh. (Several of my uncles were like that!)

My experience is most folks do not show much emphathy towards others. To be fair, a lot of folks are so preoccupied with their own daily grinds of life that they don't necessarily think about those around them much. But a few folks openly admit and demonstrate their lack of empathy - you won't see that too often!

And in this coronavirus time, a little empathy goes a long way! I guess we should have some emphathy for someone who has none?

Pray for all of our healthcare providers, food manufacturing and delivery workers, all of whom are doing their best at great risk to help us survive the current Covid-19 virus crisis.
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to me I think the worst is over and we have a plan being put in place to recovery: we should be mighty thankful to a lot of good people....

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post #1192 of 1271 Old 04-18-2020, 04:23 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by markrubin View Post
to me I think the worst is over and we have a plan being put in place to recovery: we should be mighty thankful to a lot of good people....
Mark, how are your company and employees doing? Have you been able to stay in operation as an essential business? Did you have to cut down on employees per shift and/or add shifts? Or is there now a plan to get back to part or full capacity? Were you able to tap into one of the federal loans?

Pray for all of our healthcare providers, food manufacturing and delivery workers, all of whom are doing their best at great risk to help us survive the current Covid-19 virus crisis.
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post #1193 of 1271 Old 04-18-2020, 04:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post
Mark, how are your company and employees doing? Have you been able to stay in operation as an essential business? Did you have to cut down on employees per shift and/or add shifts? Or is there now a plan to get back to part or full capacity? Were you able to tap into one of the federal loans?
Good morning Steve

we continue to operate at/ near full capacity: no direct employees have any issues so far: 3 employees had relatives who took the test: all 3 came back negative.
We did not take the loan since we have not been impacted: most employees are very happy to be able to continue going to work

when I see what happened in NYC I think we are very, very lucky

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post #1194 of 1271 Old 04-18-2020, 05:10 AM
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Originally Posted by markrubin View Post
to me I think the worst is over and we have a plan being put in place to recovery: we should be mighty thankful to a lot of good people....
Taking other side, life won't return to normal for vast majority of population until vaccine is readily available mid-2021 and what passes for reopening plan appears mostly hocus-pocus.

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post #1195 of 1271 Old 04-18-2020, 07:27 AM
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10 coronavirus-unit nurses are suspended, potentially for weeks, for refusing to work without N95 masks

https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/17/us/ca...rnd/index.html
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post #1196 of 1271 Old 04-18-2020, 07:31 AM
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I saw this study few days ago when it was published. Obviously we need more inforamtion to ascertain the cause behind it but its something we need to pay close attention to.

Recovered coronavirus patients are testing positive again. Can you get reinfected?

https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/17/healt...hnk/index.html

From article,

For now, the most likely explanation of why people are retesting positive seems to be that the test is picking up remnants of the virus.

There are other theories for why patients may be retesting positive: there might be an error with the test, or the virus could have been reactivated.

Can a person who has retested positive infect others? - Don't think so but not 100% sure at the moment.
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post #1197 of 1271 Old 04-18-2020, 08:00 AM
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To avoid both false hope and hopeless panic we need to avoid being overly optimistic or overly pessimistic and be as realistic as possible about where we stand in the current pandemic. The most realistic estimates come from the most reliable sources in the medical community. Even though those estimates may change from day to day as new data is processed, they are still more accurate than less informed guesses from outside the medical community.

In the US we need to be realistic that we are still losing more than 2,000 lives per day to COVID-19 which far exceeds the daily mortality rate of any influenza outbreak since 1918 when our medical knowledge and resources were much more primitive. We can't be too optimistic about a daily death rate that flattens out at 2,000 lives lost per day so we really need to see that rate go way down.

We need to be realistic by listening to the medical community when they tell us that even as the daily death rate falls in some areas that it will go up in others as the pandemic spreads across the country. We need to be realistic by listening to the medical community when they tell us that pandemics can have multiple peaks and that we are just close to the first peak.

We need to hold on to the realistic hope that this too shall pass while being mindful that the medical community is telling us we are still far from the end. Hope for the best but prepare for the worst.
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Originally Posted by nonstopdoc1 View Post
10 coronavirus-unit nurses are suspended, potentially for weeks, for refusing to work without N95 masks

https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/17/us/ca...rnd/index.html
Good for them, seriously
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This is interesting - a scamster using Trump's enthusiasm over hydroxychloroquine as a defense



https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/17/u...an-staley.html


Patrick Griffin, Dr. Staley’s lawyer, said Friday night that his client was following the example of the executive branch of government, which he said was now unfairly prosecuting him.

“The same executive branch that has been touting these two medications for weeks has now turned around and criminally charged an Iraq veteran, Dr. Staley, no criminal record, for doing exactly the same thing that the administration’s been doing this whole time,” he said.
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post #1200 of 1271 Old 04-18-2020, 08:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave in Green View Post
To avoid both false hope and hopeless panic we need to avoid being overly optimistic or overly pessimistic and be as realistic as possible about where we stand in the current pandemic. The most realistic estimates come from the most reliable sources in the medical community. Even though those estimates may change from day to day as new data is processed, they are still more accurate than less informed guesses from outside the medical community.

In the US we need to be realistic that we are still losing more than 2,000 lives per day to COVID-19 which far exceeds the daily mortality rate of any influenza outbreak since 1918 when our medical knowledge and resources were much more primitive. We can't be too optimistic about a daily death rate that flattens out at 2,000 lives lost per day so we really need to see that rate go way down.

We need to be realistic by listening to the medical community when they tell us that even as the daily death rate falls in some areas that it will go up in others as the pandemic spreads across the country. We need to be realistic by listening to the medical community when they tell us that pandemics can have multiple peaks and that we are just close to the first peak.

We need to hold on to the realistic hope that this too shall pass while being mindful that the medical community is telling us we are still far from the end. Hope for the best but prepare for the worst.
I really try not to use the death rate as a metric for how things are going. If you track the daily case rate, it's not going down much in USA. In fact, the last 5 days in a row each day has had more new cases than the previous day. To me, this isn't showing that the virus is under any control. I assume that the amount of people violating the stay at home orders and the fractured messages across the US government are mainly responsible for this.

At the current rate, USA will hit 1 million reported cases in less than 2 weeks. I guess it makes sense that America is the worst case for this pandemic. Most Americans are pretty dumb and a huge portion of them think this is the flu. Some even think it's a government conspiracy. And if there's a vaccine some day finally, we actually have to contend with a portion of the population refusing to take it because they're either anti-vaxers or think the vaccine is a mysterious substance used to control you (seriously people actually think this).

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