Do amps matter???? Kansas City blind amp comparison GTG. - Page 5 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #121 of 187 Old 06-02-2013, 06:04 PM - Thread Starter
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I took some pics too, crappier quality though.



From left to right:

Davebearclaw
Stitch1
KCNitro
Scrappydue
Archaea ("I'M GONNA WRECK IT!!!")
Jedimastergrant
Chirpie

Not pictured

Carp
Randy Bessinger
MrSmithers
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post #122 of 187 Old 06-02-2013, 06:25 PM - Thread Starter
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post #123 of 187 Old 06-02-2013, 07:43 PM
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Wow, what a roller coaster. I'm not sure what to say.

Thanks again to Carp for hosting and to everyone who helped put this shindig on.

I'm going to need to process this for a bit.
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post #124 of 187 Old 06-03-2013, 03:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

Ryan,

I LOVE THIS

Fantastic job with the video!!! A+ Best meet video ever!

+1. Truly professional looking! Very very impressive Ryan.

Highlights:

"You break it, you buy it."
"Are you F**** kidding me."
"I'm gonna Wreck It."

Quote:
Originally Posted by stitch1 View Post

Wow, what a roller coaster. I'm not sure what to say.

Thanks again to Carp for hosting and to everyone who helped put this shindig on.

I'm going to need to process this for a bit.

+1.

Wife caught me in the middle of a distant stare yesterday morning.

Wife: "You ok babe."
Me: "Yeah, I just don't know if power is power any more."
Wife: "What?"
Me: "Nothing. You want to watch Keeping up with the Kardasians on demand?"
Wife: "Sure."

Preaching that "power is power" for so long and the potential of having that logic turned completely upside down was a big deal to me... To the point that I was pondering building a switch of my own in preperation for my upcoming LCR amp purchase.

wink.gif
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post #125 of 187 Old 06-03-2013, 08:11 AM
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Guys, as Jonathan said we'll still post up procedural stuff so please avoid making random assumptions about what kinds of bias were or weren't in play. We will write about exactly how we did everything.

Secondly, the receiver and Audyssey. Obviously I feel terrible about that. I have for the last 24 hours. A lot of people put a lot of time into the pre meet stuff, 4 guys were at carps until past 2AM on Friday and then back at it at 11AM on Saturday and then of course everyone's time at that meet. I feel like out of a list of 47 things we got 46 right, but the 47th is a big deal that calls into question or invalidates many of our results, and that 47th is 100% my fault.

Just FYI, I tested the crap out of the 3009 in dfferent power cycling and unplugging situations. It wasn't that. I even left it off and unplugged last night and no change. What killed us was when carps optical cable screwed up (after the first round of 4 I think) and we switched to HDMI. That's when audyssey was back on for the input/source combo.
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post #126 of 187 Old 06-03-2013, 08:38 AM
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Kevin - I wouldn't stress or blame yourself man. There are so many dang variables in these types of events, it was just unlucky the one thing that popped up happened to skew the results this time. There are always more opportunities for testing and that just means more reasons to get together and drink some beer. biggrin.gif No harm done and the rest of us bystanders should be applauding all the effort you guys went through. I hope to do some experimenting out this way soon. I almost feel guilty watching you guys go through so much effort and not yet being able to help out. frown.gif
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post #127 of 187 Old 06-03-2013, 09:04 AM
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Here here. Well said Andrew. I can't think of many other (if any) crews that go out of their way to approach testing as methodically as the KC Crew.

I find myself referencing the KC Blind Sub Shootout thread when I hear any reference to fanboyism of one particular sub alignment.

What you guys do is top notch. Period.

Props to catching the error before results started pouring in.
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post #128 of 187 Old 06-03-2013, 09:05 AM
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Kevin, I wouldn't beat yourself up too much over it. Audyssey has done some really strange stuff at other gtg's in the past. You did a great job and worked very hard to get it as good as you could. Maybe we will try to tackle this again at some point.

On a positive note, Carps subs are amazing. If I had than much head room with my setup I would end up deaf for sure. His house distorts before any of this speakers do. I had to play that THX intro on my system yesterday.... What a disappointment now!

This was one of the best get together's of all time! Getting to hear the different speakers upstairs and hanging out with everyone and learning from each other was really the highlight for me. Ok ok, it was really when I thought Carps house was going to implode during the THX intro. biggrin.gif

And think... It looks like I don't have to place an order for amps after all. rolleyes.gif
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post #129 of 187 Old 06-03-2013, 09:42 AM
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Originally Posted by stitch1 View Post

Ok ok, it was really when I thought Carps house was going to implode during the THX intro. biggrin.gif

I love how intense the camera was shaking. Had me grinning ear to ear.
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post #130 of 187 Old 06-03-2013, 12:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSmithers View Post

Guys, as Jonathan said we'll still post up procedural stuff so please avoid making random assumptions about what kinds of bias were or weren't in play. We will write about exactly how we did everything.

Secondly, the receiver and Audyssey. Obviously I feel terrible about that. I have for the last 24 hours. A lot of people put a lot of time into the pre meet stuff, 4 guys were at carps until past 2AM on Friday and then back at it at 11AM on Saturday and then of course everyone's time at that meet. I feel like out of a list of 47 things we got 46 right, but the 47th is a big deal that calls into question or invalidates many of our results, and that 47th is 100% my fault.

Just FYI, I tested the crap out of the 3009 in dfferent power cycling and unplugging situations. It wasn't that. I even left it off and unplugged last night and no change. What killed us was when carps optical cable screwed up (after the first round of 4 I think) and we switched to HDMI. That's when audyssey was back on for the input/source combo.


Kevin, you shouldn't feel terrible about anything. Audyssey is evil.... pure and simple - well, at least the way the newer receivers always want us to be using Audyssey. It's like HAL when you try to turn it off... "I'm sorry, I can't do that Kevin." Weren't people making references to HAL at some point during the night?

I get it now, it was the switch to HDMI. So, that means that the HTIB vs. T amp was legit for sure and I can see that now after going to Jonathans yesterday and hearing the HTIB receiver compared to the others. The soundstage did change at Jonathan's just like it did at the GTG and it was easy to tell the difference between the HTIB receiver and the other amps.

I'm betting the switch to HDMI happened after that play in round?

Seriously... 2 optical cables failed on Saturday. I'm starting to think we are cursed, how in the hell does that happen. Also my computer is possessed plain and simple.
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post #131 of 187 Old 06-03-2013, 12:03 PM - Thread Starter
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I enjoyed the demo at the end, I wish the surrounds were hooked up but oh well. I hadn't heard Art of Flight with all 8 subs dialed in and it was very impressive. All the hair on my head, and even the little arm and leg hairs were all moving. That song reminded me of the Orbit Shifter demo at Jonathan's.

I have no idea what the volume was at as far as reference goes (had to be well over reference IMO) since my receiver reset and all the speaker trim levels were different than before. The front 3 channels were level matched and the subs were flat at the very beginning of Art of Flight because Steven wanted to hear it that way for a little bit. After that (ha, about 1 minute into Art of Flight) we were usually around 7-8 hot, I went to 10-12 hot for Bass I Love You. I turned the master volume down quite a bit for the Flight of the Phoenix scene, my ears were starting to get cooked by that point. I turned it down 5-6 db's for that scene.

If we had more time I would have started the demo with normal listening levels (what I use anyway) around 12 -15 under reference and let people hear that just to get an idea of the actual sound quality of the system instead of going straight to wrecking the house.

Also, I wish we had time to show off how music sounds with the subs on and running anywhere from flat to 8 hot depending on the song/artist (most music sounds best from 3-6 db's hot IMO now that I have everything dialed in).
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post #132 of 187 Old 06-03-2013, 12:11 PM
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Good stuff guys and thanks for all the time and effort. :-). Some interesting information was produced and despite the Audyssey issue your impressions have me wondering what a high end AVR might sound like. With 9 channels to power I will probably stay the course as I would need at least a 2 channel amp anyway.

Again, thanks for the entertaining and informative thread.

Anxiety is contagious, please keep yours to yourself.
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post #133 of 187 Old 06-03-2013, 12:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

Ryan,

I LOVE THIS

Fantastic job with the video!!! A+ Best meet video ever!



Just watched this for a 3rd time, haha, can't get enough it's done so well!


I want to put Randy's comments in perspective. This was right after the voting was DONE for the 1st round which ended up being the T amp vs. the HTIB Onkyo receiver. The voting had already been tallied, and the winner determined (T amp) - we didn't discuss like this until votes were cast for each round.

So, this first round Audyssey was off so it was truly amp vs. amp. The differences were obvious, anyone could have picked blind which was which. Much like at Jonathan's the next day (yesterday) I preferred the t-amp to the HTIB. In the video, that's me from the 2nd row asking Randy to clarify why he liked the T amp better, I also voted for the T amp but like I said in the video I liked the HTIB better for Hells Bells and all other songs I liked the T amp better.

Ok, I know that info may not interest anyone, but just in case some are curious as to what Randy is talking about.
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post #134 of 187 Old 06-03-2013, 01:18 PM
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They may not know who Randy is. smile.gif

Randy Bessigner is the guy on the left wall couch holding the CandyLand box as a writing table relaying why he liked one amp better than the other. That was a lot of fun - discussing what we heard with each amp -- even if it was all for naught.

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208 identical 1" tweeters, 52 identical 5" woofers, and 8 identical 18" subwoofers work in uniform to deliver an unquantifiably great experience!
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post #135 of 187 Old 06-03-2013, 01:21 PM
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WOW. This looks like another grave mistake IMO.
Aren't you guys aware that not only is this a fire hazard... but more importantly, that 120v wires create strong 60hz magnetic induction fields out to a distance of 4inches or so? (This is how the physics of transformers work after all.)

I'm surprised you could hear anything resembling sound quality coming out of that rats nest of copper.

Jeesh, and I thought MY rack was bad on the cable management. tongue.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

What an emotional roller coaster eh? rolleyes.giftongue.gifbiggrin.gifbiggrin.gifbiggrin.gifbiggrin.gifeek.gifmad.giffrown.gifredface.gif

Nope, I simply reject your reality and substitute my own. hehe tongue.gif

All of this is just another reason to NOT have an Audyssey/DSP/EQ enabled DAC/Pre.
You should have stuck with the USP-1, and only ABX'ed two amps at a time to rule out any preference bias (although blind). Would have given better results (most likely); the reconfiguration time would not be that much more, just swap 1 or 2 RCA\XLR cables after each round.

Did you guys ever figure out what was causing the 10khz rolloff in the source equipment, or what that only a few (micro-)volts?
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post #136 of 187 Old 06-03-2013, 01:38 PM
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Originally Posted by carp View Post

I enjoyed the demo at the end, I wish the surrounds were hooked up but oh well. I hadn't heard Art of Flight with all 8 subs dialed in and it was very impressive. All the hair on my head, and even the little arm and leg hairs were all moving. That song reminded me of the dual Orbit Shifter demo at Jonathan's.

yes it did...getting close! But until you crack the grout in your kitchen tile, or wreck your epson 8350 projector color alignment (same projector I have), break your bluray player, break your HD-DVD player, and knock 2lb wooden carvings off the tv stand upstairs -- all in a single outrageous short demo session --- you are not quite there. tongue.gif

Though I did enjoy (and took a video that I need to post here) of miscellanous hard liquor on the kitchen island two floors up (carp's house is a split level) vibrating T-Rex style in the movie Jurrasic park! biggrin.gif
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Quote:
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Ok ok, it was really when I thought Carps house was going to implode during the THX intro. biggrin.gif

I love how intense the camera was shaking. Had me grinning ear to ear.

me too --- and in person!

That camera was on a tripod, on the cement floor. The walls, the room, our persons --- likely the neighborhood. We were all vibrating when that mushroom pumped. That demo is something to behold in Carp's room!

Bass I Love you in his room with eight of those subs is the cleanest I have ever heard the song. Reference level with the subs 10dB hot is pure bliss and perfectly clean (heard that a couple weeks back). Sheldon definately has the cleanest system overall I've ever heard. The 212's are absolutely amazing too! Carps' system is not the loudest -- dual orbit shifters take that cake in a same sized room, not the most tactile - desertdome's takes that cake with the eight 15's mounted in the wooden floor infinite baffle style, but overall - Carp's system is probably the best I've ever heard, and likely one of the best system in the US - perhaps the entire world. Luke Kamp and I were talking about that the other night. Carp's system is likely top five in the US we'd guess. Anyone who has a similar or more capable sub system would likely find their way to this forum. You can count those guys nearly on one hand -- and half of them have posted in this thread. tongue.gif (popalock, gorilla83, RMK!, beastaudio)

On your overall system Carp --- well done sir --- well done.

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post #137 of 187 Old 06-03-2013, 01:47 PM
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So do I still need to add the IB RE's to the back of the room to get included on that list? Jeez, 8x18's isn't enough around here these days mad.gifwink.gif

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post #138 of 187 Old 06-03-2013, 01:50 PM
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Respect.

Now if he only had an amp to feed those 212's some proper juice.

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post #139 of 187 Old 06-03-2013, 02:00 PM
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So do I still need to add the IB RE's to the back of the room to get included on that list? Jeez, 8x18's isn't enough around here these days mad.gifwink.gif

post 140 fixed. smile.gif

Though --- to be fair carp does have that HSU midbass module immediately behind his main seating position --- so I think he may have still 1 upped you. cool.gifwink.gif

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post #140 of 187 Old 06-03-2013, 02:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

post 140 fixed. smile.gif

Though --- to be fair carp does have that HSU midbass module immediately behind his main seating position --- so I think he may have still 1 upped you. cool.gifwink.gif

Called out...lol

Dual IB RE XXX's can't touch the MBM son!
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post #141 of 187 Old 06-03-2013, 02:10 PM
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WOW. This looks like another grave mistake IMO.
Aren't you guys aware that not only is this a fire hazard... but more importantly, that 120v wires create strong 60hz magnetic induction fields out to a distance of 4inches or so? (This is how the physics of transformers work after all.)

I'm surprised you could hear anything resembling sound quality coming out of that rats nest of copper.

Jeesh, and I thought MY rack was bad on the cable management. tongue.gif
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Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

What an emotional roller coaster eh? rolleyes.giftongue.gifbiggrin.gifbiggrin.gifbiggrin.gifbiggrin.gifeek.gifmad.giffrown.gifredface.gif

Nope, I simply reject your reality and substitute my own. hehe tongue.gif

All of this is just another reason to NOT have an Audyssey/DSP/EQ enabled DAC/Pre.
You should have stuck with the USP-1, and only ABX'ed two amps at a time to rule out any preference bias (although blind). Would have given better results (most likely); the reconfiguration time would not be that much more, just swap 1 or 2 RCA\XLR cables after each round.

Did you guys ever figure out what was causing the 10khz rolloff in the source equipment, or what that only a few (micro-)volts?

Yes - I was unnerved by that bundle of hot mess as well...
but FWIW
We neither heard, nor measured a 60hz buzz IIRC once we gave up on the analog signal feeding an Emotiva pre-amp then being split four ways on Friday night and instead went to the Onkyo TX-NR1007 AVR using a optical or HDMI as our DAC and preouts in all channel stereo... - but I don't have the graph in front of me to prove it. Carp -- send me that zip file from your machine so I can post that info.

Emotiva pre-amp was no good. We tried hard to make it work friday night - till 2AM. TOO much buzz -- too many cables I guess making buzzing on all amps. More on that later - but the more we tried to circumvent the problem using cheater plugs on the amps, the emotiva, the HTPC the worse it got. To the point every time we moved the mouse the buzzing occurred - even with two different sound cards' analog out. Analog splitting of any kind just was not working for us -- too much noise --- too little time to sort it out. Feel free to try it yourself. biggrin.gif

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post #142 of 187 Old 06-03-2013, 02:10 PM
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sorry to hear about what happened with the test guys.

“The Inuke DSP 3000, the Emotiva XPA-3, and Pioneer Elite receiver were pretty much indistinguishable...
... After today's retesting results I fear a g2g on amp comparison probably won't be nearly as exciting as we all thought...”—Archaea
“...Just got home from Jonathan's, yep all amps sound the same...”—Carp

not completely surprising, but still interesting to see such comments about those three amps.

Listen. It's All Good.
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post #143 of 187 Old 06-03-2013, 02:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

They may not know who Randy is. smile.gif

Randy Bessigner is the guy on the left wall couch holding the CandyLand box as a writing table relaying why he liked one amp better than the other. That was a lot of fun - discussing what we heard with each amp -- even if it was all for naught.

That was part of why I wanted to clarify his comments, his were valid because Audyssey was not engaged at that time.

In the video I called him by name during that part, but yeah I should have clarified more.
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post #144 of 187 Old 06-03-2013, 02:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post



WOW. This looks like another grave mistake IMO.
Aren't you guys aware that not only is this a fire hazard... but more importantly, that 120v wires create strong 60hz magnetic induction fields out to a distance of 4inches or so? (This is how the physics of transformers work after all.)

I'm surprised you could hear anything resembling sound quality coming out of that rats nest of copper.

Jeesh, and I thought MY rack was bad on the cable management. tongue.gif
Nope, I simply reject your reality and substitute my own. hehe tongue.gif

All of this is just another reason to NOT have an Audyssey/DSP/EQ enabled DAC/Pre.
You should have stuck with the USP-1, and only ABX'ed two amps at a time to rule out any preference bias (although blind). Would have given better results (most likely); the reconfiguration time would not be that much more, just swap 1 or 2 RCA\XLR cables after each round.

Did you guys ever figure out what was causing the 10khz rolloff in the source equipment, or what that only a few (micro-)volts?





I am currently working on cleaning up the back of my rack. The GTG gives me a good excuse to do that since everything got disorganized anyway. Normally my rack doesn't look nearly as bad since I have 9 less amps, but still here is what it usually looks like. Actually, worse than this since you can't see the mess of cables on the floor. Jonathan was pulling out random cords that weren't connected to anything before we even brought any of the amps into the room.











Ok, I'm off to the hardware store to buy some kind of twist ties/zip ties and some gorilla tape. This is going to be a pain in the arse.
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post #145 of 187 Old 06-03-2013, 02:20 PM
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Haha, I was just messin biggrin.gif maybe drag the 4648's out too...Jeez people need to hurry up and buy my stuff!!! Haha

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post #146 of 187 Old 06-03-2013, 02:22 PM
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Carp, what is all that tape at the top for?

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post #147 of 187 Old 06-03-2013, 02:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

yes it did...getting close! But until you crack the grout in your kitchen tile, or wreck your epson 8350 projector color alignment (same projector I have), break your bluray player, break your HD-DVD player, and knock 2lb wooden carvings off the tv stand upstairs -- all in a single outrageous short demo session --- you are not quite there. tongue.gif

Though I did enjoy (and took a video that I need to post here) of miscellanous hard liquor on the kitchen island two floors up (carp's house is a split level) vibrating T-Rex style in the movie Jurrasic park! biggrin.gif
me too --- and in person!

That camera was on a tripod, on the cement floor. The walls, the room, our persons --- likely the neighborhood. We were all vibrating when that mushroom pumped. That demo is something to behold in Carp's room!

Bass I Love you in his room with eight of those subs is the cleanest I have ever heard the song. Reference level with the subs 10dB hot is pure bliss and perfectly clean (heard that a couple weeks back). Sheldon definately has the cleanest system overall I've ever heard. The 212's are absolutely amazing too! Carps' system is not the loudest -- dual orbit shifters take that cake in a same sized room, not the most tactile - desertdome's takes that cake with the eight 15's mounted in the wooden floor infinite baffle style, but overall - Carp's system is probably the best I've ever heard, and likely one of the best system in the US - perhaps the entire world. Luke Kamp and I were talking about that the other night. Carp's system is likely top five in the US we'd guess. Anyone who has a similar or more capable sub system would likely find their way to this forum. You can count those guys nearly on one hand -- and half of them have posted in this thread. tongue.gif (popalock, gorilla83, RMK!, beastaudio)

On your overall system Carp --- well done sir --- well done.

Thanks man, I'm sure there are plenty of guys that smoke me though. Don't forget about guys like Japandave and obviously Bassthathz, or Kevin that has 2 Orbit Shifters in a closet sized room, Notnyt, Bossobass (he's flat to 3 hz, I'm flat to like 9).

I'm an in disbelief how little money it takes to get a system like this. Now, I need to keep that in perspective it's a sh*tload of money to a normal person but for me I'm shocked I can get a 158 inch BRIGHT screen that is fully watchable with all lights on, the most amazing speakers for music I've heard, and bass to spare.

My point is it's really exciting how accessible a system like this is now days. I'm a teacher for god's sake!
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post #148 of 187 Old 06-03-2013, 02:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Oh yeah, Nate's room would crush mine as far as bass goes too. Fatshaft has a crazy setup.., Scott Simonian, the list goes on. I'd love to hear all these guys rooms....
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post #149 of 187 Old 06-03-2013, 03:46 PM
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DUDE -- CARP

I CALL SHENANIGANS on "here's what my rack usually looks like"

I sure I wouldn't be the only one to call shens either. That's the cleanest I've ever seen that rack, and you gotta zoom out to see the full picture...Nice try bud....I pulled out a half dozen cables in there before we even started that were just loose. I pulled out a dozen after we were done that were loose and unconnected. Kevin and I were laughing. I applaud your effort to square it away!

I'm fairly confident it looked more like this when we started -- and we just made it worse with all those additional amps in there! tongue.gif
.

Archaea's 9.8.4 Home Theater Room
208 identical 1" tweeters, 52 identical 5" woofers, and 8 identical 18" subwoofers work in uniform to deliver an unquantifiably great experience!
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post #150 of 187 Old 06-03-2013, 03:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Hahahaha, yeah it was awful to begin with. I was laughing my a off when you pulled random cord after random cord, none of which were connected to anything during the course of about 20 seconds and kept exclaiming "what the heck is going on here?!?!?!?!"

Ok, back to work. Just had to make sure the wifi still works since I moved the router.
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