Kansas City Area Home Theater Meets and Movie Night Events! - Page 131 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Forum Jump: 
 2530Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #3901 of 8177 Old 06-07-2016, 07:03 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
dlbeck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Des Moines, IA
Posts: 2,116
Mentioned: 174 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 662 Post(s)
Liked: 778
Topgolf is awesome. Works well for corporate events. Haven't been to the one in KC but in other cities. Good food as well.
dlbeck is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #3902 of 8177 Old 06-07-2016, 07:57 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
carp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 10,124
Mentioned: 686 Post(s)
Tagged: 2 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3545 Post(s)
Liked: 3290
Yep it's a lot of fun and the food is great too.
carp is offline  
post #3903 of 8177 Old 06-08-2016, 08:36 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
beastaudio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Western NC
Posts: 14,557
Mentioned: 400 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5621 Post(s)
Liked: 5458
I'd be willing to ship you guys one of my custom radian 10" coax builds for the comparo if you wanted, and perhaps even the beyma beastclops too. I think they would stand up well against the competition.
Mfusick, carp, Archaea and 4 others like this.

European Models do not accept banana plugs
Belly of the Beast: Bass Bunker Theater
beastaudio is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #3904 of 8177 Old 06-08-2016, 08:49 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
ChldsPlay's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Olathe, KS
Posts: 2,164
Mentioned: 66 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1161 Post(s)
Liked: 672
So, I have put off decorating my snack room for too long now. I have some posters and a few cinema related pieces of wall art, but looking on Etsy gave me another idea. Thinking back to those posters and other items that have all of those movie quotes on them, and what @jedimastergrant got from his wife, I was thinking of putting up quotes all over the wall. It might get a little pricey, but might be cool. What do you guys think?

I'm talking about things like this (which would have to go on the door and be white):

chriscmore, d_c and Stoked21 like this.

The Hodor Theater - Now with Atmos
Projector - JVC D-ILA NX7; Receiver - Yamaha Adventage A3050
LCR speakers - JTR Noesis 228 HT (3); Surr./Back - Klipsch Pro Cinema KPT-8000M (4)
Atmos In-ceiling - Niles DS8HD (4); Subs - Passive JTR Captivator Pro (2)
ChldsPlay is online now  
post #3905 of 8177 Old 06-08-2016, 08:54 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Stoked21's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Kansas City (Lenexa)
Posts: 2,287
Mentioned: 108 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1526 Post(s)
Liked: 932
Dude. Spoiler tags that!

I love it though
Stoked21 is offline  
post #3906 of 8177 Old 06-08-2016, 09:02 AM
d_c
AVS Forum Special Member
 
d_c's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: KCMO
Posts: 2,801
Mentioned: 243 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1179 Post(s)
Liked: 1608
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post
I'd be willing to ship you guys one of my custom radian 10" coax builds for the comparo if you wanted, and perhaps even the beyma beastclops too. I think they would stand up well against the competition.
I'd love to hear them. I thought they were 8s for some reason though. I would like to use the same driver/CD for every speaker including the mains in my new HT after hearing how well Jon and Derek's rooms do with immersive sound. How much did it end up costing you to put those together with the xo parts and drivers, and is that a shared design or a Beastsecret?
d_c is online now  
post #3907 of 8177 Old 06-08-2016, 09:22 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
beastaudio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Western NC
Posts: 14,557
Mentioned: 400 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5621 Post(s)
Liked: 5458
Quote:
Originally Posted by d_c View Post
I'd love to hear them. I thought they were 8s for some reason though. I would like to use the same driver/CD for every speaker including the mains in my new HT after hearing how well Jon and Derek's rooms do with immersive sound. How much did it end up costing you to put those together with the xo parts and drivers, and is that a shared design or a Beastsecret?
I've contemplated for a while of starting to offer them as a built-out complete speaker. They really perform well and at a decent discount to a single8. Haha, it's a little bit of a "beastsecret" but doing a little research you could easily cost it out on your own I could supply you with the XO.
stitch1 and lukeamdman like this.

European Models do not accept banana plugs
Belly of the Beast: Bass Bunker Theater
beastaudio is online now  
post #3908 of 8177 Old 06-08-2016, 02:55 PM
d_c
AVS Forum Special Member
 
d_c's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: KCMO
Posts: 2,801
Mentioned: 243 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1179 Post(s)
Liked: 1608
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post
I've contemplated for a while of starting to offer them as a built-out complete speaker. They really perform well and at a decent discount to a single8. Haha, it's a little bit of a "beastsecret" but doing a little research you could easily cost it out on your own I could supply you with the XO.


Copy that - Which one do you think turned out better?
d_c is online now  
post #3909 of 8177 Old 06-08-2016, 03:12 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
desertdome's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Blair, NE
Posts: 3,780
Mentioned: 315 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1535 Post(s)
Liked: 1837
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
I'm in charge of planning a corporate Employees' Club event (family friendly picnic) at my work for ~200ish people. Anyone have any solid facility ideas?
Arrowhead Stadium
Kauffman Stadium

Loose Mansion

Some corporations rent a house/mansion on VRBO and use for a catered activity. You could rent this 40 acre estate home. Minimum is 3 nights. The Archaea family could spend one night and you could host an audio/video GTG another night.
stitch1 and d_c like this.

Ponderosa Theater
High Impact AV
- ISF Level III Video Calibrator, THX-HAA HT3 Audio Designer/Calibrator

Last edited by desertdome; 06-08-2016 at 03:32 PM.
desertdome is online now  
post #3910 of 8177 Old 06-08-2016, 05:54 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
lukeamdman's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Burnsville, MN
Posts: 3,790
Mentioned: 198 Post(s)
Tagged: 2 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1385 Post(s)
Liked: 2000
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post
I've contemplated for a while of starting to offer them as a built-out complete speaker. They really perform well and at a decent discount to a single8.
I think you should! I'm thrilled with mine.
lukeamdman is offline  
post #3911 of 8177 Old 06-08-2016, 10:09 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
stitch1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Missouri
Posts: 1,656
Mentioned: 139 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 375 Post(s)
Liked: 321
Quote:
Originally Posted by SierraMikeBravo View Post
Don't know how many of you from the KC metro area still frequent this thread, but wanted to let you know that the Home Acoustics Alliance is planning to hold a class in KC right after July 4th. This is a rare event. I don't think they have ever come to Kansas City before to teach a class. There are many levels to choose from. Classes are for both professionals and enthusiasts. Want to know how to actually calibrate for multiple subwoofers the correct way? How to calibrate Atmos, DTS:X and Auro? How to calibrate using different types of DSP's and work with multiplexers and how to use excellent acoustic equipment? Want to know how to treat your room and lay out the room properly? Then this is the series of classes that teach you to do this correctly. I'll post details as soon as I have them, but I do know seats are limited.

Sorry if I come off as sceptical or a debbie downer. Really, I am just ignorant to what is taught at these classes and would be interested to know more.

I read the website and did some searches, read some reviews and opinions on the courses. It seems like a good organization, especially for those in the industry. However, I am concerned with the cost associated with it. It would seem the cheapest class, while still very informational, is very basic by design. Where the real meat and potatoes courses add up fast. I can't seem to find any information about TurboCal outside of information regarding these classes. Like a simple search of TurboCal vs REW or TurboCal and Omnimic does not come back with anything. A more trustworthy search like TurboCal Help also only brought back ads and information about the classes. Nothing on YouTube either. I understand it is a pro calibration tool but it doesn't seem to get much attention outside of the classroom. Again I am ignorant to TurboCal and what it can do or why I would want to pay money to learn to use it. It's not like Photoshop, ProTools, SaleForce, or other "Pro" software that you can at least read up on or hear about its use. The secrecy does concern me. By all means protect your product. (loose lips sink ships) But come on. A little sample of what it does or why someone should even care about it would do wonders for the image.

Quote:
TurboCal promises to bring a basic calibration process designed to enable audio components to achieve their highest potential. The TurboCal process of Sonic Evaluation, Component Verification, Design Adjustment, and Electronic Calibration is consistent with CEDIA doctrine and is complimentary to automated receiver calibration systems.
A little snipit that I found while searching. How basic of a calibration? Is it as useful as say REW or Omnimic? Am I better off focusing my time on these programs as there is tons of info and easy help to be had for free?

The other main topics that seem to be featured in the classes is room layouts and speaker placements. I am a bit sceptical of what they are teaching here. Like is this a class that teaches common sense uses or does this go deep into the sound theory and whatnot.

Also, what kind of info will they be teaching or using fast fourier transform and real time audio analyzers? Is this part of the TurboCal or are we learning deeper more technical information here?

Also, you brought up multiplexers in your post and I have a very basic understanding of them. Taking data based on parameters to then have output the correct data based on that series of parameters or truth tables. However, I am interested in what kind of practical application they serve in a home theater. Or are talking about setting up those parameters within a receiver/AVR to have the right output selected?

I mean the potential for these classes to be the next best thing to a college course is definitely there. However, with so little information provided the potential for buyer's remorse is just as high.

Maybe I am not the target audience for these courses. (with those prices I know I'm not) I just want to play a bit of devil's advocate and ask is it really worth the price for those of us that live and breath here on AVS with tools like REW and Omnimic and the huge support group of AVS and the like?

Last edited by stitch1; 06-08-2016 at 10:21 PM.
stitch1 is offline  
post #3912 of 8177 Old 06-08-2016, 11:44 PM
AVS Forum Club Gold
 
SierraMikeBravo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Topeka, KS
Posts: 2,229
Mentioned: 54 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 398 Post(s)
Liked: 296
Best bet is to call Gerry and talk about your concerns. You have to remember some things here. It costs a lot of money to purchase equipment for student use, ship panels, laptops, speakers, pay for venues and meals and still make a profit. Further, you will never, ever, ever learn all there is to know through a website. Only way to learn is hands on and a mentor, but there is more than just the science; there's the art. The art of listening, and listening for specific things that cannot be taught through a website or a PDF. Think about this, if the free deal was such a great deal, would you be asking about this class right now? I don't go to a website to learn, I go to the people who have been doing this day in and day out for decades, and are considered THE authority in this arena. Everything I have learned is through them. Not a website. So, is it worth it...in my opinion, every penny. If websites were so great, everyone would be an expert. But that's for you to judge.
SierraMikeBravo is offline  
post #3913 of 8177 Old 06-09-2016, 06:55 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
desertdome's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Blair, NE
Posts: 3,780
Mentioned: 315 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1535 Post(s)
Liked: 1837
Quote:
Originally Posted by stitch1 View Post
I can't seem to find any information about TurboCal outside of information regarding these classes.
A process was developed that could be affordable for the customer and was efficient to complete for the calibrator. This process is called TurboCal and is just a part of what is taught in the THX-HAA Integrator class. Unlike TurboTax, TurboCal does not refer to software.

The Advanced Integrator course uses a much more in-depth process that is called PowerCal.

Ponderosa Theater
High Impact AV
- ISF Level III Video Calibrator, THX-HAA HT3 Audio Designer/Calibrator
desertdome is online now  
post #3914 of 8177 Old 06-09-2016, 06:56 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
stitch1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Missouri
Posts: 1,656
Mentioned: 139 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 375 Post(s)
Liked: 321
Hi Shawn,

I meant no disrespect. I was just asking for a bit more detailed information regarding how much depth is offered by the classes. There's no reason to get defensive.

Quote:
It costs a lot of money to purchase equipment for student use, ship panels, laptops, speakers, pay for venues and meals and still make a profit.
I do understand there are cost associated with putting on a class of this nature and you could make the point that the prices are high to keep the classes small enough for real hands on learning. You didn't so I will. I see they keep the body count pretty low in most cases. That is great. because it offers up a lot of 1 on 1 with the teachers.

Quote:
Further, you will never, ever, ever learn all there is to know through a website. Only way to learn is hands on and a mentor, but there is more than just the science; there's the art. The art of listening, and listening for specific things that cannot be taught through a website or a PDF.
I will also never "ever, ever" learn all there is to know... Period.

Quote:
Think about this, if the free deal was such a great deal, would you be asking about this class right now?
If it weren't for the forum I wouldn't even know about the class. How's that for irony?

Quote:
I don't go to a website to learn, I go to the people who have been doing this day in and day out for decades, and are considered THE authority in this arena. Everything I have learned is through them. Not a website.
I think you are underplaying the value of this forum and community based learning. I am not saying the forum alone is the end all be all for education. Not even in the slightest. I just was asking for more clarification of what the classes offered and was contrasting it with the website and online tools available for us DIY'ers.

Just because they are "THE authority" doesn't mean their classes are going to make me become an authority. THX was "the authority" for home theater products with their (secretive) certification process. Yet, the internet knowledge base, internet direct manufactures, and DIY'ers have all but killed that business model. Paying more to get the same or lesser product based on a lack of up front information tends to give off the wrong impression. I am not saying these classes are the same as a THX certified product but the business model does share some parodies.

Please be my guess to educate me on the values of the classes. That is what I am asking for. But to under value this forum is in poor taste.
Stoked21 likes this.
stitch1 is offline  
post #3915 of 8177 Old 06-09-2016, 07:10 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
stitch1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Missouri
Posts: 1,656
Mentioned: 139 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 375 Post(s)
Liked: 321
Quote:
Originally Posted by desertdome View Post
A process was developed that could be affordable for the customer and was efficient to complete for the calibrator. This process is called TurboCal and is just a part of what is taught in the THX-HAA Integrator class. Unlike TurboTax, TurboCal does not refer to software.

The Advanced Integrator course uses a much more in-depth process that is called PowerCal.
Oh so TurboCal is just a process. Not a product? See I didn't know that. The site made it sound like a tool for calibrations. Like for example omnimic.

So is PowerCal a product or a process? I see on their website they have an AVPro 2.0. I am assuming that is actually their calibration software and possibly hardware.
stitch1 is offline  
post #3916 of 8177 Old 06-09-2016, 07:29 AM
AVS Forum Club Gold
 
SierraMikeBravo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Topeka, KS
Posts: 2,229
Mentioned: 54 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 398 Post(s)
Liked: 296
I know you didn't mean disrespect stitch. I didn't either, but was trying my best to get one point across (plus I wrote it at 1 am). Michael hit the highlights pretty good. You won't learn everything there is know through the HAA class either, but you may also find what you had been doing was also incorrect. The class is meant to establish a firm foundation to set you in the correct direction. But you always still have Gerry to help you even years after the class in setting yourself back on the right course. I took the course 8 years ago now, and still talk with Gerry and have discussions. You can't put a price on that. Part of the reason the cost is where it is is due to the number of students. Gerry limits it to 6 for the Level II. He believes in being to give one on one attention, and the student getting time with hands on with every aspect of the class. I think what you are fishing for from what I'm understanding is, what's my best bang for the buck and what am I going to learn?

As Michael mentioned the, turbo cal class is not really a software (although there is software available for guiding you through the process), it's really about an abbreviated method of approaching a quick system calibration in 90 minutes. The class was designed for Best Buy and other professionals to at least set up a simple system to provide the best sound without treatment, etc., better than automakij buttons, and hit the major elements of a basic calibration. So, turbo cal in a nutshell is a abbreviated step by step process to calibration.

Level II is the full blown calibration. You walk into an empty room and everything is off to the side. Assembly required by the student. It takes some very long days to set that system up from start to finish, treat the room and calibrate it. Gerry lets you make mistakes and comes back and asks the hard questions of why. By the end of the class you will know how to setup a room, treat it, and calibrate it. You are not limited to 8 hours in the class. At least one day we were there for 12 or 13 hours. A proper calibration, when someone pays me, takes 2 to 3 days to complete at often 14 hour days until I can't see straight. Then I go to bed. You will learn everything there pretty much is to learn about proper sound in this class. The class is tough, with a lot of meat, and well worth it. The value is tremendous if you want to really learn. But that is my opinion. You honestly have to take a leap of faith and judge for yourself. Hope this helps.
Mfusick and stitch1 like this.
SierraMikeBravo is offline  
post #3917 of 8177 Old 06-09-2016, 07:37 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
desertdome's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Blair, NE
Posts: 3,780
Mentioned: 315 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1535 Post(s)
Liked: 1837
Quote:
Originally Posted by stitch1 View Post
Oh so TurboCal is just a process. Not a product? See I didn't know that. The site made it sound like a tool for calibrations. Like for example omnimic.

So is PowerCal a product or a process? I see on their website they have an AVPro 2.0. I am assuming that is actually their calibration software and possibly hardware.
PowerCal is a process, too.

Any audio or video calibration requires software and hardware. In order to be consistent with calibration and to make sure no steps are missed, some of the calibration software will walk one through a workflow. This provides a logical sequence of checking things out. Many times one step must be accomplished before another is done. It wouldn't make much sense to gain match two subwoofers as the final calibration step after EQ.

HAA offers hardware and software through avprostore.com. You can see what the Turbocal Audio Kit includes at their website. The kit works with an iPad. The software it includes is AVPro 2.0 which I think is sort of a wizard based system that walks one through the calibration. You can also use the software to then make reports for the customer.

Ponderosa Theater
High Impact AV
- ISF Level III Video Calibrator, THX-HAA HT3 Audio Designer/Calibrator
desertdome is online now  
post #3918 of 8177 Old 06-09-2016, 07:53 AM
AVS Forum Club Gold
 
SierraMikeBravo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Topeka, KS
Posts: 2,229
Mentioned: 54 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 398 Post(s)
Liked: 296
Oh, and yes, you will learn how to interpret and when to use FFT, RTA, ETG, etc., and the ideal goals of each.
Mfusick likes this.
SierraMikeBravo is offline  
post #3919 of 8177 Old 06-09-2016, 08:25 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
stitch1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Missouri
Posts: 1,656
Mentioned: 139 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 375 Post(s)
Liked: 321
Thank you for taking the time to reply. Obviously, I am interested in learning what they are offering otherwise I wouldn't be taking the time to research it or ask the questions. As someone that isn't going to be doing this as a source of income the barrier for entry is a bit too far out of reach for me at this time.

I do like the idea of us all pitching in and sending someone and then having them come back to pass along some of that knowledge.
bozee3 likes this.
stitch1 is offline  
post #3920 of 8177 Old 06-09-2016, 09:08 AM
AVS Forum Club Gold
 
SierraMikeBravo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Topeka, KS
Posts: 2,229
Mentioned: 54 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 398 Post(s)
Liked: 296
You are welcome!! Hope I was able to answer some of your questions. The money actually isn't bad considering the cost of bringing a top notch professional into your room for two-three days. The class is actually cheaper.
Mfusick likes this.
SierraMikeBravo is offline  
post #3921 of 8177 Old 06-09-2016, 09:30 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Stoked21's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Kansas City (Lenexa)
Posts: 2,287
Mentioned: 108 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1526 Post(s)
Liked: 932
hmmphhh......

stitch1 likes this.
Stoked21 is offline  
post #3922 of 8177 Old 06-09-2016, 09:39 AM
AVS Forum Club Gold
 
SierraMikeBravo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Topeka, KS
Posts: 2,229
Mentioned: 54 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 398 Post(s)
Liked: 296
The benefit of having it in KC now for the local enthusiast is travel costs. It costs a lot of money for airfare, meals and hotel for 5-6 days. Ball park cost $1000-$1500 just for that. If you were going to pool to send someone, now is the time. That was the whole point I was trying to convey. It is unlikely this will happen in KC again.
Mfusick and Stoked21 like this.
SierraMikeBravo is offline  
post #3923 of 8177 Old 06-09-2016, 09:41 AM
AVS Forum Club Gold
 
SierraMikeBravo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Topeka, KS
Posts: 2,229
Mentioned: 54 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 398 Post(s)
Liked: 296
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stoked21 View Post
hmmphhh......

I know some charge over $1000 per day plus travel expenses (that's the creme of the crop though). Professional acousticians won't even talk with you for less than $5000. Just to put things in perspective.
SierraMikeBravo is offline  
post #3924 of 8177 Old 06-09-2016, 09:44 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Stoked21's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Kansas City (Lenexa)
Posts: 2,287
Mentioned: 108 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1526 Post(s)
Liked: 932
Quote:
Originally Posted by SierraMikeBravo View Post
The class was designed for Best Buy and other professionals to at least set up a simple system to provide the best sound without treatment, etc., better than automakij buttons, and hit the major elements of a basic calibration. So, turbo cal in a nutshell is a abbreviated step by step process to calibration.
Yeah. You lost me. I don't work for best buy. Quite frankly I wouldn't let anyone from best buy into my house.....And I know beyond 100% certainty that no one could ever walk into my room and make it sound better without 1) moving walls, 2) moving speakers or subs from behind front wall or placing them in the middle of the room, etc. 3) it could never improve my atmos. 4) whatever they were doing could never interface with Dirac on my 16 channels going to 24. Which is superior to any other REQ available at a nominal cost ( I've used Audy, and YPAO and Dirac) 5) my REW measurements show me exactly where my problems are....And the ones that exist cannot be fixed without total redesign of room.

Oh well, it sounds great. (FYI a major high-end speaker designer agreed).

Now...They could walk in, recommend additional acoustic treatment. Or redesign my entire theater and move screen walls, change processors/amps, and change REQ at the cost of thousands or tens of thousands of $$$.....

I'm pretty lost on the validity of the class. I'm a hobbyist. Make my system sound better. For the cost, I can change speakers or EQ and gain far more. My room is FAR from perfect and no room is. What does this class gain me? I've really tried to justify it.

As Lewis Black said about his 6AM Economics class "What, are you trying to keep this S**T a secret? Why else would you teach it this early in the morning???" Or be vague about the hobbyist value?


Sorry guys!

D
stitch1 likes this.
Stoked21 is offline  
post #3925 of 8177 Old 06-09-2016, 09:48 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Stoked21's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Kansas City (Lenexa)
Posts: 2,287
Mentioned: 108 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1526 Post(s)
Liked: 932
Quote:
Originally Posted by SierraMikeBravo View Post
The benefit of having it in KC now for the local enthusiast is travel costs. It costs a lot of money for airfare, meals and hotel for 5-6 days. Ball park cost $1000-$1500 just for that. If you were going to pool to send someone, now is the time. That was the whole point I was trying to convey. It is unlikely this will happen in KC again.
I know there is ABSOLUTELY stuff to be learned. Please don't take my last post as complete passive-aggressive (which it was). I know little as an MSEE who has studied and thesis on Active Noise Reduction and Electostat design!


I needed major help and education to locate my room treatments (which I learned in books and the internet!) But let's not dismiss the value of class agendas, class values, class benefits. And most importantly, let's not dismiss the value of long-term, educated, hobbyists and the validity of their feedback. Especially those on the internet.

Same goes for the course! Long-term smart guys. Tell me how I gain as a non-charging hobbyist and how you can improve my room please.
stitch1 likes this.

Marantz NR1607, Crown XLS1500 (2 in bridge mode for mains)
JTR 210RT, JTR Cap S2
Samsung 78” Curved LED 4K (KU7500)
Oppo UDP-203 UHD HDR BD player, AppleTV Gen4, Synology DS216play
STOKED Home Theater Build
Stoked21 is offline  
post #3926 of 8177 Old 06-09-2016, 09:53 AM
AVS Forum Club Gold
 
SierraMikeBravo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Topeka, KS
Posts: 2,229
Mentioned: 54 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 398 Post(s)
Liked: 296
Everyone is entitled to an opinion.

I think you were thinking Turbocal is the same as full blown level II? If so, not even close. I would not advocate Turbocal to an enthusiast.
stitch1 and Stoked21 like this.
SierraMikeBravo is offline  
post #3927 of 8177 Old 06-09-2016, 10:35 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Stoked21's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Kansas City (Lenexa)
Posts: 2,287
Mentioned: 108 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1526 Post(s)
Liked: 932
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post
Not to argue but you are wrong, and the class teaches you all the ways and why, and the internet doesn't. I find this ironic so I wanted to point it out. You are free to your opinion, but it would be a shame for others to think the same simply because an alternative point of view was not voiced as well.
I'm wrong? Why? I'd love an alternative point. I'd challenge it. I'd enjoy the class if anyone can tell me why it's beneficial to a hobbyist that's spent nearly six digits on his theater room.

What's my value? What do I gain?

Why is everyone do defensive and non informative?

Ironic? Irony is you disputed and didn't say crap as to why?
I'm honestly trying to understand? What's the agenda what's the gain? I'll obviously spend $2k to make my room better. How will this class improve my sound?
Stoked21 is offline  
post #3928 of 8177 Old 06-09-2016, 10:55 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
jamin's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: moot point
Posts: 1,166
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 61 Post(s)
Liked: 76
This fella wrote about Turbo Cal, Level 1, and level 2 HAA classes:

https://www.audioholics.com/home-the...raining-course

plug in to play
Acoustic Mafia - Hear No Evil
jamin is offline  
post #3929 of 8177 Old 06-09-2016, 11:29 AM
 
Mfusick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Western MA
Posts: 29,681
Mentioned: 23 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 608 Post(s)
Liked: 2726
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stoked21 View Post
I'm wrong? Why? I'd love an alternative point. I'd challenge it. I'd enjoy the class if anyone can tell me why it's beneficial to a hobbyist that's spent nearly six digits on his theater room.

What's my value? What do I gain?

Why is everyone do defensive and non informative?

Ironic? Irony is you disputed and didn't say crap as to why?
I'm honestly trying to understand? What's the agenda what's the gain? I'll obviously spend $2k to make my room better. How will this class improve my sound?
I edited my post to clarify more for you:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Stoked21 View Post
Yeah. You lost me. I don't work for best buy. Quite frankly I wouldn't let anyone from best buy into my house.....And I know beyond 100% certainty that no one could ever walk into my room and make it sound better without 1) moving walls, 2) moving speakers or subs from behind front wall or placing them in the middle of the room, etc. 3) it could never improve my atmos. 4) whatever they were doing could never interface with Dirac on my 16 channels going to 24. Which is superior to any other REQ available at a nominal cost ( I've used Audy, and YPAO and Dirac) 5) my REW measurements show me exactly where my problems are....And the ones that exist cannot be fixed without total redesign of room.

Oh well, it sounds great. (FYI a major high-end speaker designer agreed).

Now...They could walk in, recommend additional acoustic treatment. Or redesign my entire theater and move screen walls, change processors/amps, and change REQ at the cost of thousands or tens of thousands of $$$.....

I'm pretty lost on the validity of the class. I'm a hobbyist. Make my system sound better. For the cost, I can change speakers or EQ and gain far more. My room is FAR from perfect and no room is. What does this class gain me? I've really tried to justify it.

As Lewis Black said about his 6AM Economics class "What, are you trying to keep this S**T a secret? Why else would you teach it this early in the morning???" Or be vague about the hobbyist value?


Sorry guys!

D
I was hesitant to comment and initially resisted but I think that extra cup of coffee has finally made me. Please understand the following is just my opinion and it's ok to disagree but I feel like it's valuable to others possibly to hear some counter balance to your quote above from a more educated perspective.

I do not mean to argue at all but I do feel you are wrong, and the class teaches you all the ways and why, and the internet doesn't. I find this ironic so I wanted to point it out first. You are free to your opinion, but it would be a shame for others to think the same simply because an alternative point of view was not voiced as well.

Couple other points to consider:

First,

I'm pretty certain any of the HAA level III guys could walk into your room and make it sound better without moving any walls or doing expensive construction costs. Shawn mentioned that there is an "art" to it, and it's true. You can't be a great artist by reading about it online, you learn through experience and and real world applied learning by doing it. Dirac is good, but a pro calibrator likely would choose something like a QSC core250i and manual/custom set up which is significantly more reliable and better sounding than a auto EQ algorithm or a basic dirac curve. Not to bash on Dirac, it's a good tool, but it's only a tool and not a solution. Good tools help you do the job well, but good tools to not make for a job well done. It doesn't matter which tool you use, there is still an element to doing the job well that is not about the tool you use, but how you use it. There is a difference, and you can in this case hear it. These classes existed before the current crop of auto EQ systems, and the things they teach will still be used and apply after all these auto EQ programs have gone obsolete. There is just too much "art" in the process to think a machine can do it as well. Your two ears and brain hear much differently than a mic does too, so much of the art is knowing what to fix and what not to fix. Your brain does some unique things by choosing to ignore or suppress some things, or failing to suppress and ignore other things. The mic and charts don't show you that kind of stuff.

Second,

Yes they probably could come into your room and recommend additional treatment to make improvements. What exactly is wrong with that ? That is actually one of the points of the class, teach you that so you don't have to pay anyone else to do it. Actually class is designed to teach you so that you can get other people to pay you to do it. Adding or improving acoustical treatments is a legit path to better sound quality- and it's probably one of the greatest bang for the bucks in all of the audio kingdom. You said:

"I can For the cost, I can change speakers or EQ and gain far more. "

I disagree as much as I possibly can with the above statement and believe it to be absolutely incorrect. I believe the exact opposite is true. In terms of bang for the buck, it's wildly in favor of the class and application of the taught philosophies. It wouldn't matter if you paid a top pro, or took class and did yourself- assuming either of those was done properly the improvement relative to the cost would be exponentially more. I'm talking night and day, flip a switch on and off kind of difference compared to typical general high end enthusiast self done system. It's not the products or the components that make it good- it's the balance and set up of the system. It is a system and you hear it as a system, the system includes your AV components, your room, your treatments, your source... everything ties together. One of the most important things the class teaches you is this philosophy of a system- how you experience as a system, and how to put it all together as a system to make it the best it can be. You can't swap out speaker or change EQ and make the kind of noticeable difference I am talking about. You simply can not.

I would use the example of the 50+ GTG events where people compared some heavy hitting speakers or products and even across multiple speakers the differences were not that clear, obvious, or strong. In some cases people didn't even know which product was what, or identify them easily. In other blind cases results were 50/50 between speakers that were 10x different in price between each other. If you think you can change EQ, or swap your speaker with an "upgrade" and get the kind of improvement we are talking about with a full blown HAA professional audio calibration you are mistaken. It's impossible, even given an amount of any budget, to achieve that level of improvement just swapping speakers unless that swap somehow achieves the things the class teaches you about. (which is things like appropriateness of speaker to application, location, acoustical treatment, setup and calibration, avoidance of problems and so forth.)

Assuming you had the wrong speaker, and swapped it for the right speaker you could possibly get that kind of improvement, but assuming you have an appropriate speaker that didn't suck it would be small gains (but real and often worthwhile anyways) to upgrade the speaker. There is a million examples of speaker upgrades gone bad on these forums that show what I am talking about.

Third,

You can DIY acoustical treatments for a couple hundred bucks with basic power tools, and you can buy some pretty affordable acoustical treatments too. In fact the class supplies you with all kinds of acoustical treatments and lets you play with them, change them, compare them, and decide what you like. That's something that the internet can't teach you the same way. It doesn't have to cost tens of thousands (but it can) to do acoustical treatment well and the class can often show you ways to save cost by teaching you what you like, what you do not, and letting you put your money in the areas you feel would be best spent. Typically I see people on the forums just making or buying random acoustical treatments and putting them up where they think they should go, and of coarse the effect is similar to the speaker upgrades- which range from "enjoying the improvement" to "OMG the best ever". The problem is the opinion is formed against nothing else, it's somewhat an calibrated opinion. Rarely would someone spend the cash and buy a few different kinds of treatments, either brands, or types, and compare them against each other and pick a winner. I've never seen someone do what the class does- which is swap treatments and compare bare wall vs absorb vs combo vs diffusion, and even compare different kinds of each of those types against each other too. So I don't see how that can be learned online, or that practical experience can happen in your own room without you spending (as you suggest you are against doing) many thousands to buy it all. Someone already has bought them all, and is willing to let you use them all, and even teach you how to use them best. It's shortsighted to think that's not valuable if you were serious about learning, or finding what works best. I don't know of any other place you can achieve that.

With all this said, I can agree with your general philosophy that the class might not be worth it for an enthusiast, and certainly that determination is going to be dependent on personal value and disposable income of each individual. Some guys that have high paying jobs and are serious about learning might not find it to be a lot of money- other people might be looking at it as a big chunk of personal yearly earnings, or they don't care enough to learn. There really isn't anything wrong or debatable about any scenario with regards to personal perceived value- it's an individual choice. There is no wrong or right, or one size fits all answer. I don't think many enthusiasts are serious enough to spend the cash on the class, or perhaps the cost is too high to warrant it for them. I agree and nothing wrong with that. If that is true, then don't go. There's close to 320 million people in the USA and only 5-6 of them are probably going to go to this class so certainly nothing wrong with not going. I'm not going either. But I thought it was important to explain what I just did so that people can identify the difference between not seeing value, and thinking that value is missing.
Mfusick is offline  
post #3930 of 8177 Old 06-09-2016, 11:55 AM
 
Mfusick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Western MA
Posts: 29,681
Mentioned: 23 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 608 Post(s)
Liked: 2726
Quote:
Originally Posted by jamin View Post
This fella wrote about Turbo Cal, Level 1, and level 2 HAA classes:

https://www.audioholics.com/home-the...raining-course
Nice to see you post and awesome link!

I would add this one too:

https://www.audioholics.com/room-aco...aa-ii-workshop

Those two links probably explain as much as anyone would want to know if they are interested.
Mfusick is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply Area Home Theater Meets

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off