Kansas City Area Home Theater Meets and Movie Night Events! - Page 132 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #3931 of 8181 Old 06-09-2016, 12:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Stoked21 View Post
For the cost, I can change speakers or EQ and gain far more. My room is FAR from perfect and no room is.
Would you quit messing around and buy a Captivator 4000LFU already!
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post #3932 of 8181 Old 06-09-2016, 12:06 PM
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Would you quit messing around and buy a Captivator 4000LFU already!
"A"???? I thought we were talking two. Plus an S2 NF?

Michael. Stop the encouragement. You are going to cause a divorce!!!
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post #3933 of 8181 Old 06-09-2016, 12:12 PM
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Nice to see you post and awesome link!
Thanks. Guess my coffee kicked also.

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post #3934 of 8181 Old 06-09-2016, 12:40 PM
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How bout them royals eh?
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post #3935 of 8181 Old 06-09-2016, 12:47 PM
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Regarding the above posts/novels, I will gladly donate some money towards whoever wants to take the class and come to my house to calibrate my audio. I'll even throw in some beer and Minsky's pizza.
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post #3936 of 8181 Old 06-09-2016, 12:48 PM
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Regarding the above posts/novels, I will gladly donate some money towards whoever wants to take the class and come to my house to calibrate my audio. I'll even throw in some beer and Minsky's pizza.
Stuff in works. Hold tight
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post #3937 of 8181 Old 06-09-2016, 12:54 PM
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So how many in KC metro would be interested in a true room measurement and recommendation? No problems solved but recommendations made? If so how much would you be willing to spend to fly an expert in. No cheap skates. You get what you pay for. Tell me how many hours, what you want done and what it's worth to you...pm or email if you have mine.

D
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post #3938 of 8181 Old 06-09-2016, 02:20 PM
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Please understand the following is just my opinion and it's ok to disagree but I feel like it's valuable to others possibly to hear some counter balance to your quote above from a more educated perspective
I do not mean to argue at all but I do feel you are wrong, and the class teaches you all the ways and why, and the internet doesn't. I find this ironic so I wanted to point it out first. You are free to your opinion, but it would be a shame for others to think the same simply because an alternative point of view was not voiced as well.
I don't entirely disagree. Hands on is always best. I dispute that the internet can't teach you anything. It's literally like saying books can't teach you anything. Furthermore, internet is live feedback. You can post Q&A for realtime solutions. Obviously needs to be taken with a grain of salt from some posters! That's really a negative and ignorant approach though.....The internet can teach a vast amount.

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I'm pretty certain any of the HAA level III guys could walk into your room and make it sound better without moving any walls or doing expensive construction costs. Shawn mentioned that there is an "art" to it, and it's true. You can't be a great artist by reading about it online, you learn through experience and and real world applied learning by doing it.
Yep. I agree! Everything can always be improved. I'd challenge anyone to make my room better without major construction or speaker replacement. Even then, my JTR speakers will not be replaceable in my room. Everybody has to take their own room, run countless speakers and positions to determine what's best. I'll place my REW results against anything a professional calibrator can do. But I've also learned that moving panels and speakers a few inches results in 0 change in magnitude and impulse response graphs. However, it does result in massive imaging improvements! So your point is well taken. I still stick by my challenge. I've ran through about 50 speakers in a year. I've ran REW and multiple EQs and treatments and positions. Experience in ones room is gained by spending time in ones room....Extended time. The class could likely make this journey quicker and more economical.


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Dirac is good, but a pro calibrator likely would choose something like a QSC core250i and manual/custom set up which is significantly more reliable and better sounding than a auto EQ algorithm or a basic dirac curve. Not to bash on Dirac, it's a good tool, but it's only a tool and not a solution. Good tools help you do the job well, but good tools to not make for a job well done. It doesn't matter which tool you use, there is still an element to doing the job well that is not about the tool you use, but how you use it. There is a difference, and you can in this case hear it. These classes existed before the current crop of auto EQ systems, and the things they teach will still be used and apply after all these auto EQ programs have gone obsolete. There is just too much "art" in the process to think a machine can do it as well. Your two ears and brain hear much differently than a mic does too, so much of the art is knowing what to fix and what not to fix. Your brain does some unique things by choosing to ignore or suppress some things, or failing to suppress and ignore other things. The mic and charts don't show you that kind of stuff.
Yes it is a tool. And it's not perfect. Point agreed upon. But did you seriously just imply that Dirac is an auto EQ system? It's a 100% custom system....Plus how is a calibrator going to perform something more extensive in YPAO or Audy or ACCUEq? The simple answer is they can't unless running Audy Pro. And furthermore how are you tying into these REQ systems to improve the result? What magic tool do you have to improve an Audy XT32 calibration? That microphone is far superior and far more sensitive than a human ear can ever be....Even if it is flaky a lot! It still does a better job 100% of the time than ears can. If you want to debate the design of the mics, then we can. I've designed countless piezo and electret mics.

Compare and contrast: @desertdome did my video calibration. And he did stuff I could never perform without the expertise and the tool cost layout. But there is very little tool layout to do a proper audio calibration. On the contrary, Dirac will let me physically manipulate the curves and curtains and XOs etc to either a recommended curve OR a preferential house curve. That's more than any AVR EQ can ever boast. Manual EQ settings in an AVR/Prepro....Well that's BS vs a measured mic/REQ setting. It will always be inferior....Unless maybe you spend 8 hours/day for 2 weeks tweaking non-stop. Even then....Probably still inferior.

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Yes they probably could come into your room and recommend additional treatment to make improvements. What exactly is wrong with that ? That is actually one of the points of the class, teach you that so you don't have to pay anyone else to do it. Actually class is designed to teach you so that you can get other people to pay you to do it. Adding or improving acoustical treatments is a legit path to better sound quality- and it's probably one of the greatest bang for the bucks in all of the audio kingdom.
I agree....But my room treatment advice was free! I never paid a penny.......I did buy GIK treatments and they provided the advice for my $2000 panel purchase....And I shopped them none-the-less and didn't find cheaper other than DIY.

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I disagree as much as I possibly can with the above statement and believe it to be absolutely incorrect. I believe the exact opposite is true. In terms of bang for the buck, it's wildly in favor of the class and application of the taught philosophies. It wouldn't matter if you paid a top pro, or took class and did yourself- assuming either of those was done properly the improvement relative to the cost would be exponentially more. I'm talking night and day, flip a switch on and off kind of difference compared to typical general high end enthusiast self done system. It's not the products or the components that make it good- it's the balance and set up of the system. It is a system and you hear it as a system, the system includes your AV components, your room, your treatments, your source... everything ties together. One of the most important things the class teaches you is this philosophy of a system- how you experience as a system, and how to put it all together as a system to make it the best it can be. You can't swap out speaker or change EQ and make the kind of noticeable difference I am talking about. You simply can not.
I've been an intern and paid by a major speaker designer as I finished my MSEE. I've worked for 2 of the 3 largest DSP manufs and have developed the algorithms for guitar games, largest manufacturer of digital musical players, etc. I've literally developed the opamps, voltage regulators, ADC and DACs in countless consumer, industrial and military electronics. I'm pretty comfortable here! We can talk quantization errors and sampling rates all day....Let's stray away from the rabbit hole.

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If you think you can change EQ, or swap your speaker with an "upgrade" and get the kind of improvement we are talking about with a full blown HAA professional audio calibration you are mistaken. It's impossible, even given an amount of any budget, to achieve that level of improvement just swapping speakers unless that swap somehow achieves the things the class teaches you about. (which is things like appropriateness of speaker to application, location, acoustical treatment, setup and calibration, avoidance of problems and so forth.)
You kind of have to improve it. 10-15 AVSers have been here. They've all heard my room back when DT speakers, MA speakers, slowly moving to JTR speakers. From YPAO to Audy XT32 to Dirac. From no treatment to full treatment....Yes there are changes. And within 10 minutes I can show you the difference by popping down panels and defeating my EQ. And there is still nothing that "turbo cal" can possible do to improve my room. I know it beyond a shadow of a doubt. Now a Dirac specialist or speaker specialist or someone running insane REW could probably walk in, move panels, change internal XO modules, etc....Turbocal and HAA can do nothing here. Sorry it's just a fact. I can run full reference and show you true object imaging with no speakers audible and no walls or ceilings audible.

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Third,

You can DIY acoustical treatments for a couple hundred bucks with basic power tools, and you can buy some pretty affordable acoustical treatments too. In fact the class supplies you with all kinds of acoustical treatments and lets you play with them, change them, compare them, and decide what you like. That's something that the internet can't teach you the same way. It doesn't have to cost tens of thousands (but it can) to do acoustical treatment well and the class can often show you ways to save cost by teaching you what you like, what you do not, and letting you put your money in the areas you feel would be best spent. Typically I see people on the forums just making or buying random acoustical treatments and putting them up where they think they should go, and of coarse the effect is similar to the speaker upgrades- which range from "enjoying the improvement" to "OMG the best ever". The problem is the opinion is formed against nothing else, it's somewhat an calibrated opinion. Rarely would someone spend the cash and buy a few different kinds of treatments, either brands, or types, and compare them against each other and pick a winner. I've never seen someone do what the class does- which is swap treatments and compare bare wall vs absorb vs combo vs diffusion, and even compare different kinds of each of those types against each other too. So I don't see how that can be learned online, or that practical experience can happen in your own room without you spending (as you suggest you are against doing) many thousands to buy it all. Someone already has bought them all, and is willing to let you use them all, and even teach you how to use them best. It's shortsighted to think that's not valuable if you were serious about learning, or finding what works best. I don't know of any other place you can achieve that.
Again that's what GIK and such are for. I hate GIK don't get me wrong. But for $2K if treated the entire room. That's a lot compared to most people's budgets. Then again, you are right. I agree best investment I ever made. A roll of masking tape, a friend a ladder and a mirror...All my treatments were perfect. That includes the countless yards of GoM fabric to build the screen wall and GoM on all the panels. This is honestly my downfall.....I'm not an acoustician. If this class were approached as such, I'd probably be more enticed. But to propose an alternative EQ method...Well that's ludicrous.

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With all this said, I can agree with your general philosophy that the class might not be worth it for an enthusiast, and certainly that determination is going to be dependent on personal value and disposable income of each individual. Some guys that have high paying jobs and are serious about learning might not find it to be a lot of money- other people might be looking at it as a big chunk of personal yearly earnings, or they don't care enough to learn. There really isn't anything wrong or debatable about any scenario with regards to personal perceived value- it's an individual choice. There is no wrong or right, or one size fits all answer. I don't think many enthusiasts are serious enough to spend the cash on the class, or perhaps the cost is too high to warrant it for them. I agree and nothing wrong with that. If that is true, then don't go. There's close to 320 million people in the USA and only 5-6 of them are probably going to go to this class so certainly nothing wrong with not going. I'm not going either. But I thought it was important to explain what I just did so that people can identify the difference between not seeing value, and thinking that value is missing.
I agree. And you can ask anyone here....I will pay through the nose for marginal sound improvements. But I've also done it on an extremely slim budget compared to many (but much higher budget compared to most). $15K in speakers, $2K in treatments, several $k in cables and DIY material, $5K in rack stuff and $6K in PJ/Screen. I challenge anyone to spend $30K and get the video and audio that I do. Given I've spent about another $50-60k in bathroom and bar and furniture and furnishings.

I've still not hear how this class is going to improve my room. I'll drop $2K right now for the coarse if someone can give me an answer..... I'll let you come to my room and show me issues (which I'm already aware of) if you can show me how to solve them......I'm sorry, you can't change the room or improve the EQ. It's just not possible short of an overhaul.

Maybe for many it is because they haven't invested in treatments and they haven't ran REW and moved speakers/subs and put a few weeks into perfecting the system. But those are the same people who are not going to pay for a class in the first place! Or they would have already utilized the free tools out there! They would have already called GIK or similar. What's the value to the class?
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post #3939 of 8181 Old 06-09-2016, 02:28 PM
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So how many in KC metro would be interested in a true room measurement and recommendation? No problems solved but recommendations made? If so how much would you be willing to spend to fly an expert in. No cheap skates. You get what you pay for. Tell me how many hours, what you want done and what it's worth to you...pm or email if you have mine.

D
I'm not sure what that means, but you have an expert 45 miles down the road. Why would fly them in?
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post #3940 of 8181 Old 06-09-2016, 02:37 PM
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I think you may be missing the point stoked. When you go to college, the text is s supplement to enhance the class. It is not the instructor. It is meant to supplement what the instructor has presented. In my opinion, the net is the worst. Without a proper foundation (a correct one at that), how can you decipher what is or is not correct? Lots of people come across as experts on this forum and aren't. They build one room and they're now experts? Hardly. I think the differences here lie in the approach. You believe the net and books are primary learning sources, where I say they are secondary enhancements. You are also relying on technology to be smarter than you and fill in the blanks of what you haven't read or figured out. I disagree with that approach. In order to truly learn and move forward, I believe the foundation must be true and sound. Anyway, my two cents FWIW. This has really turned into a is it worth it or not discussion, and I'm not interested in that. It's a battle of opinions, and like certain anatomy parts, everyone has them, and our human nature often often stubbornly prohibits us from changing them.
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post #3941 of 8181 Old 06-09-2016, 02:38 PM
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I thought the drive was a bit longer than that @desertdome

I don't know if he would classify himself as an expert. But yeah hes a pretty smart fella.
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post #3942 of 8181 Old 06-09-2016, 02:48 PM
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I think you may be missing the point stoked. When you go to college, the text is s supplement to enhance the class. It is not the instructor. It is meant to supplement what the instructor has presented. In my opinion, the net is the worst. Without a proper foundation (a correct one at that), how can you decipher what is or is not correct? Lots of people come across as experts on this forum and aren't. They build one room and they're now experts? Hardly. I think the differences here lie in the approach. You believe the net and books are primary learning sources, where I say they are secondary enhancements. You are also relying on technology to be smarter than you and fill in the blanks of what you haven't read or figured out. I disagree with that approach. In order to truly learn and move forward, I believe the foundation must be true and sound. Anyway, my two cents FWIW. This has really turned into a is it worth it or not discussion, and I'm not interested in that. It's a battle of opinions, and like certain anatomy parts, everyone has them, and our human nature often often stubbornly prohibits us from changing them.
I suppose I digress!

I agree there's likely value in the class. I know for a fact I would learn. I'll never claim a book or the internet can ever teach me all I need to know. @desertdome can attest to that. The best 10 hours I've ever spent in HT was sitting beside him as he explained video calibration to me! And hands on will always go 10x further than reading.

I think we are all struggling with this question, which has been asked repeatedly "How will this class improve my HT experience? What value will I gain as a hobbyist?" It's not a price debate. It's a debate on what am I going to take away from it to justify the price? No one will answer that.

We are NOT experts in HT design. We do not WANT to be experts in HT design. We want to take a class that improves our HT experience at our own homes.....No one can tell us the benefit...

That's all.
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post #3943 of 8181 Old 06-09-2016, 02:54 PM
 
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I think Shawn meant he's HAA trained, and level I, II and III certified, and lives in Kansas. No need to fly.

Desertdome seems smart from his posts so you could wait for him to learn and do it too I guess. But that's wasn't what Shawn meant, although could be a solution if inclined.

That said, I think the topic has expired for me here. Good luck to all who check it out, and hope it's a great experience.
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post #3944 of 8181 Old 06-09-2016, 03:01 PM
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You get both to be honest stoked. They are inextricably commingled as a friend of mine is fond of saying (you know who are). This is why I made the suggestion of pooling your resources and sending one person to learn and share it with the rest. That would make sense.

Stitch...lol. I'm talking about little 'ole me. I live 45 miles down the road. Am one of three HAA Level III (although I'm more on the design end) people in the world. Jamin is one of the others. Adam Pelz is the third.
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post #3945 of 8181 Old 06-09-2016, 03:06 PM
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I will pay through the nose for marginal sound improvements.
The elephant in the room - ear wax and ear hair. Remove and trim. $1000, please.
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post #3946 of 8181 Old 06-09-2016, 03:32 PM
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You get both to be honest stoked. They are inextricably commingled as a friend of mine is fond of saying (you know who are). This is why I made the suggestion of pooling your resources and sending one person to learn and share it with the rest. That would make sense.

Stitch...lol. I'm talking about little 'ole me. I live 45 miles down the road. Am one of three HAA Level III (although I'm more on the design end) people in the world. Jamin is one of the others. Adam Pelz is the third.

Oh, I didn't realize you were so close. You should come down to a gtg sometime. When talking with Grant about his room design he made it sound like you were a lot further away.
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post #3947 of 8181 Old 06-09-2016, 03:35 PM
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I've thought about it. Just haven't had a chance. I live in Topeka.
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post #3948 of 8181 Old 06-09-2016, 03:36 PM - Thread Starter
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Mike,


Are there any local theaters that you've worked with? Is it possible the local owners would be willing to give us a quick demo or sign up for one of our KC monthly movie night slots as a host (first page of the thread)? Not to put you on the spot - but you might consider hosting a movie night at your home theater in Topeka at some point?


I think what it boils down to this --- for me:


I've been in several professionally calibrated theaters across the US. A couple by Erskine group. Thus far in my experiences, I haven't noticed a clear difference between what Eskrine or another professional team has created/calibrated --- as compared to that put together by an especially avid enthusiast. And an example of an avid enthusiast are those who you are talking to here in this KC thread. The most vocal and active of the KC gang have lived eaten and breathed this stuff for the last few years. We do g2g's regularly, we do experimentation regularly, we throw together blind tests that of which is perhaps only rivaled by a couple places in the US on these forums. (east coast - @beastaudio, @Gorilla83, or perhaps the Omaha and Des Moines groups with @dlbeck, and @desertdome) Yes, -- clearly we are all amateurs, who don't do this professionally - but as other enthusiasts who have attended the KC home theater crawl or g2gs can attest (including many visitors from out of state) we hold some pretty potent systems --- and these, largely outside of professional advice, involvement. Some of us, myself included, fall more on the budget end of the spectrum/hobby and look for value -- that said we've heard systems that cost many many many times more than ours -- developed and calibrated by professionals - and yet --- we still do enjoy our own systems (in many/most cases) as much, or more, than those we've heard that were professionally put together (of course this is a broad sweeping statement and one must consider home field advantage loyalties)


That said, I know from some e-mails floating around that several of us have interest in the course --- assuming we can find value and knowledge in it --- and significantly enhance our own theater experiences. The certification label itself isn't a strong driver because we won't be giving up our day jobs. However, increasing our own theater experience enjoyment is a valuable result.


I think it boils down to the concept that we want to be shown the value. As cliché as it is - Missouri is the Show me State and I'd like to experience a properly setup theater or room like @Mfusick was talking about - where it would really be a jaw-dropping/eye-opening to see a difference that could put the value of this class into perspective. Any recommendations on a potential local host for such an experience?


I ask this in all seriousness. I like to experience new theaters, and probably have visited around 50 home theaters owned by AVSforum members in more than a half dozen states. For reference, my personal favorite is @dlbeck's in IA, and my second favorite to this point is @craig john's in PA. If there is a local THX HAA designed, or Eskrine designed theater that you'd champion as a pillar example --- I'm not ashamed to send a PM and beg admittance.
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post #3949 of 8181 Old 06-09-2016, 03:56 PM
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Very well written and I think he speaks for all of us in the KC area.
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post #3950 of 8181 Old 06-09-2016, 05:16 PM
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Archea,

Which Erskine one have you been in? Chris's room in Lee's Summit is quite good. But I'm not sure for what reason I have to prove anything to you? Is it for my own ego or for yours? Anyway, perhaps when these other rooms are completed in the KC area, I'll ask if they are interested.
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post #3951 of 8181 Old 06-09-2016, 05:25 PM
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All I did was try an offer a great opportunity and to help by extending information, and now I get a challenge as to my competence and experience (and I'm pretty sure I know which room you are referring to Archea). I was born in Missouri, but I've never asked a stranger who tried to offer information...prove it to me. As stitch said, if that speaks for all of you, I wish you the best in your endeavors!!
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post #3952 of 8181 Old 06-09-2016, 05:56 PM
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Big boy panties.

Again. I have a nice theater. I'm not afraid of spending money on my theater. How will this class improve my theater? How will it supplement xt32 or dirac? How will it improve my atmos? What will it provide for my overall room gain as a spendy enthusiast???? Why won't anyone answer?

Last post. There's no value prop. I'm done here.
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post #3953 of 8181 Old 06-09-2016, 07:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SierraMikeBravo View Post
All I did was try an offer a great opportunity and to help by extending information, and now I get a challenge as to my competence and experience (and I'm pretty sure I know which room you are referring to Archea). I was born in Missouri, but I've never asked a stranger who tried to offer information...prove it to me. As stitch said, if that speaks for all of you, I wish you the best in your endeavors!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by SierraMikeBravo View Post
Archea,

Which Erskine one have you been in? Chris's room in Lee's Summit is quite good. But I'm not sure for what reason I have to prove anything to you? Is it for my own ego or for yours? Anyway, perhaps when these other rooms are completed in the KC area, I'll ask if they are interested.
Even Michael Jordon had to try out.

I think I pick up from the tone of your reply that you may have read into my intent more than I meant. Yes I wrote that post with a bit of a wink and a nod, but it isn't aimed at being particularly derogatory. Rather it's just a honest observation and legitimately a chance to discuss/prove validity of the claims and function of a professional setup and calibration in a tangible way - through a demo of a incredibly impressive home theater system that shows the clear value of the services.

Given mfusick's description about his experiences with such a professionally calibrated room being otherworldly -- who wouldn't like to experience that? I'll freely admit, given my experiences in various enthusiasts rooms, I am skeptical that such a delta exists. My post above is simply saying show me the money! Prove that an avid, self taught, enthusiasts' room pales to the likes of a room with a professional calibration. I'd truly like to experience a professionally calibrated theater that will knock the avid enthusiasts socks right off!

I have no beef with you - in fact I don't think our paths have crossed ways much in anyway previously and I don't have an opinion about you formed. I also don't have any particular personal beef with Erskine group. (with the exception that they seem to strongly push Procella over other potentially better and cheaper similar options -- but that's one enthusiasts thoughts against another's - so really neither here nor there).

I certainty don't devalue the result of a good calibration and setup. Rather the opposite. I think the whole system integration (room, placement, EQ, etc) is more important than the individual components (assuming competent components). Just this ---- my eyebrow raises when I read stuff about no amateur enthusiast can produce a competitive home theater system without professional training --- yet my personal experiences in this hobby visiting various home theaters don't yet validate that claim.

I've been to quite a few of the local active enthusiasts theaters here in KC. I've made a definite intentional effort to do so. I 'think'? the only two theaters I've visited that had any work done by Erskine Group are Jedimastergrant and Randy Bessinger --- Both excellent and enjoyable theaters - but from an audio perspective (IMO) not necessarily a clear notch above what a well versed, avid, audio enthusiast can produce without paid professional assistance with the same speakers and like equipment + patience, willingness/initiate to experiment, and time. I actually don't know which theater you think you know to which I was referring, so I can't comment on that. I haven't heard of Chris's room in Lee's Summit --- I'm not sure who that is. What is his forum handle? Pending he accepts a self-invitation - I'm there! I'd also like to hear your horn based ribbon speakers at some point! You don't owe me anything - this isn't an ego battle --- just an opportunity to point out something you would call a benchmark of what a professional service setup and calibration can do for the audio experience - so I understand. The claim is the professional services set the bar really high. I'm just asking how high? Give me a reference so I even know what we are talking about?
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post #3954 of 8181 Old 06-09-2016, 09:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SierraMikeBravo View Post
All I did was try an offer a great opportunity and to help by extending information, and now I get a challenge as to my competence and experience (and I'm pretty sure I know which room you are referring to Archea). I was born in Missouri, but I've never asked a stranger who tried to offer information...prove it to me. As stitch said, if that speaks for all of you, I wish you the best in your endeavors!!

Woah! I never meant to call out your skills or anything of the nature. I fully believe you and everyones word of the many happy customers you have served that you are a very competent designer. I wouldn't even question your livelihood in that nature.

Shawn, I am sorry I started this mess. It turned down a path I never meant to take it. My questions were directed at the class in question.

Separately, I was one upping Jonathan's (Archaea) post because I too would like to see, hear, feel, a fully calibrated system. Not to make an example of it or you or anything ill willed. Truly, I just want to see pinnacle of what can be done if sky's the limit. DLBeck's theater is currently my own personal favorite theater. I learned a lot from what he did to build his room. I know I can't replicated it on my budget. But what tips and cool ideas I have learned from seeing it I will use as best I can in my own room. But the same goes for anyone's room. I don't think I have visited a theaters that I haven't learned at least something from. Just to point out a few; Carp has done some very cool things with phase and his near field subs. Like REALLY cool. Jedimastergrant has one of the nicest looking theaters around. His soffit lighting is fantastic and has a very well built stage and a ton of well thought out and designed sound proofing. Stoked has by far the best implementation of atmos I have ever heard. That includes 3 multi million dollar AMC and Cinetopia theater. It's an experience you should really check out. Honestly, his room is the only reason I am still interested in Atmos in the slightest. Archaea has taken the cheapest of PA speakers and made one of the best cinema experiences you can get in a home theater. It's not one major thing in his room that stands out but that is because the room is a sum of its many parts. It's a huge room with huge bass. 11 completely matching speakers, fantastic image quality on the projector.

There are many more. I am just pulling thought off the top of my head.

Again, I am in this hobby to learn. Not to tear anyone down. If anything I would rather help others by passing on what knowledge I am able to share.
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post #3955 of 8181 Old 06-09-2016, 09:02 PM
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Ditto.
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post #3956 of 8181 Old 06-09-2016, 09:04 PM
 
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@Arch ea,
You should go check out a quest listening room when Gerry sets one up. Usually one or more of the acoustic mafia (hear no evil!) will help set it up. Gerry runs the show and I promise it won't suck. The bar will get higher. How high? Idk. That's for you to find out.

Here's a good read: http://www.homeacoustics.net/DealerS...oomsHT0702.pdf

You might enjoy that. ^. Seems related to your interests.

I think the HAA class talk is expired in usefulness, time to move conversation another direction I would suggest. The challenges and negativity are why real professionals leave forums like this, or don't post as much. No fun only playing defense. When they all leave what's left ? I don't want to be part of that. I did some of that in my younger years before I learned. I'm not innocent. But I can't condone it either. I'm not sure if you realize who some of these guys are, but if you knew what I did you'd have more respect.

There's probably less than 10 people total that collectively combine to make up and define the majority of the current state of the art with regards to audio and acoustic knowledge as to what is good sound and how to make it. By my count 50% of them have some association to HAA, the other few are guys like Sean Olive and Floyd Toole. I'm not sure you realize how long or how much these guys have been playing the game. Or at what level they play. If you gave me a $50 million dollar budget for an audio calibration I know who I'd call, and that answer wouldn't change just because the budget got huge. The best of the best is what it is. If you owned a huge company and made high end audio products and wanted your demo room to be the best possible you'd still call same few guys. Same guys the big companies call. There's always a teacher to teach you something if you want to learn but who teaches the teacher ? Some of these guys do. I like your enthusiasm and appreciate your skeptisism but be careful to remain respectful too. I think you are trying to be polite and don't mean to suggest otherwise but your challenges are in some ways disrespectful. If I google your name what comes up? If I google some of these other guys what comes up? Realize where they have been and where they have come from, and where you are. I hate to say this to you only, I really mean it to myself and everyone too. You just got to be the guy I quoted. I don't think I'm worthy to critique or challenge some of these guys, and I'd be lucky to learn a few things.
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post #3957 of 8181 Old 06-09-2016, 09:55 PM
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Stitch...understood and accepted! Archea and I had a great conversation tonight (or rather I did and he listened to be me babble on about tangential items and esoteric systems), but the one thing I wanted to convey is that I completely understand him, and where he is coming from. I really wish I could convey to each of you and say how the class could help individual situations. The only way that could happen, is to hear the results for yourself, but that means taking the class. Its difficult when not being able to describe things from the same reference point. Anyway, I can say is that I know where many of you are coming from, and understand. Just trying to figure out how best to help you. Maybe come together at one of your GTG's and make a few suggestions, but that really doesn't answer the burning questions you have; will this help me? The answer is yes, but without knowing your specific levels of understanding and the state of each of your systems, it is difficult to fully and appropriately answer that question. All I can say is that the class touches on every element. It has to by virtue of the conditions of the HAA room to start with. A blank slate.
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post #3958 of 8181 Old 06-09-2016, 10:00 PM - Thread Starter
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I had a good chat with Shawn just now - until my phone battery died. He explained what this HAA class offering is about.

If I understood correctly -- the advanced course is about summing the room, the equipment, and the treatments into an overall excellent experience --- it's about learning to listen, and learning what to listen for. It's about learning what the AutoEQ routines do wrong, and how to fix them. It's about what treatments should go where to best optimize the audio experience and get that WOW factor!

It is designed for the professionals who intend to provide calibration and setup services, but would have good takeaways for the avid hobbyist, like us, too. He painted a picture of the credentials of the guys teaching it (big names - top in the business), and furthered that the who's who in the audio realm all had their starts in HAA.

Based on some of the information provided - it appears to be a pretty solid offering for anyone interested. I'd advise reaching out to Shawn directly for questions about the program.

As to an example theater locally:
Shawn noted that in KC area specifically Erskine group doesn't have any particular customer they built the theater top to bottom (where every recommendation was followed) - in several theaters locally individual components of Erskine's recommendation have been implemented, but not really a Top to Bottom designed and implemented room. Shawn seemed knowledgeable and professional, he's been doing audio consulting and calibration work since about 2009 with sincere interest in the hobby since before the turn of the century. Working with audio is a side gig for him, but he doesn't make any money off the promotion of this HAA class - rather he brought it to our attention because he personally found it to be very valuable and wanted to let others know.
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Last edited by Archaea; 06-09-2016 at 10:08 PM.
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post #3959 of 8181 Old 06-09-2016, 10:28 PM
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Sounds like a good summary Archea, although I've been doing sound consulting since about 2007, but close enough. My first experience with HAA was 2008.
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post #3960 of 8181 Old 06-10-2016, 05:49 AM
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Archaea - you drank the koolaid?
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