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post #8191 of 8271 Old 11-12-2019, 06:24 AM
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Does anyone within our KC group have an OLED tv? I am on the fence about getting one and would like to see one in someone house before pulling the trigger. @chiptouz it looks like you have the LED front runner I was looking at. That 900F is what I had my eye on but I keep coming back to the inky blacks of the OLED. Any chance I could stop by for a demo?


Stitch1 sure you can come by and take a look. I really Like the 85x900f but there is a new model out there that I am sure that NFM would love to take your money for.


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post #8192 of 8271 Old 11-13-2019, 06:37 PM
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Does anyone within our KC group have an OLED tv? I am on the fence about getting one and would like to see one in someone house before pulling the trigger. @chiptouz it looks like you have the LED front runner I was looking at. That 900F is what I had my eye on but I keep coming back to the inky blacks of the OLED. Any chance I could stop by for a demo?
Costco has the LG 65" OLED at $2050 for the next couple of weeks. Was $3000 when this model was released and about $2600 last several months. I'd buy it except my 2012 Panasonic P65VT50 65" plasma is still running mighty fine. Paid $3100 for it back then. Don't think I could watch an LCD TV after watching plasma this long. Probably have to be OLED.

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post #8193 of 8271 Old 11-14-2019, 10:41 AM
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I have an unopened gallon of Rosco Velour Black 6003. Its a little long in the tooth so I would have it shaken not stirred. Will give away if anybody is looking for this kind of solution. I can tell more about dilution if someone is interested. This is the stuff they talk about on the "black" thread. It is best for ceilings or walls that won't be touched.
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post #8194 of 8271 Old 11-14-2019, 02:54 PM
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Costco has the LG 65" OLED at $2050 for the next couple of weeks. Was $3000 when this model was released and about $2600 last several months. I'd buy it except my 2012 Panasonic P65VT50 65" plasma is still running mighty fine. Paid $3100 for it back then. Don't think I could watch an LCD TV after watching plasma this long. Probably have to be OLED.
I noticed that yesterday when I was up there. My 2010 Panasonic Plasma is still going strong, but it would be nice to upgrade to an OLED. My wife would not like it, though.

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post #8195 of 8271 Old 11-14-2019, 09:47 PM
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Costco has the LG 65" OLED at $2050 for the next couple of weeks. Was $3000 when this model was released and about $2600 last several months. I'd buy it except my 2012 Panasonic P65VT50 65" plasma is still running mighty fine. Paid $3100 for it back then. Don't think I could watch an LCD TV after watching plasma this long. Probably have to be OLED.
Thanks for the info. My wife wanted nothing less than 75". When given that kind of freedom you gotta run with it. So we ended up going LCD because the price difference. However, we did end up with a 85" Sony X900F. It's arrives Saturday. I feel like it's crazy for a living room but should be very fun at the same time. We still have the projector setup in the basement for movies. But I don't feel like I have to go down there as often for Netflix and gaming anymore.
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post #8196 of 8271 Old 11-15-2019, 10:33 AM
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Thanks for the info. My wife wanted nothing less than 75". When given that kind of freedom you gotta run with it. So we ended up going LCD because the price difference. However, we did end up with a 85" Sony X900F. It's arrives Saturday. I feel like it's crazy for a living room but should be very fun at the same time. We still have the projector setup in the basement for movies. But I don't feel like I have to go down there as often for Netflix and gaming anymore.
you are going to love the 85" X900F. I wanted to to an 85", but the wife said I couldn't send that much. We went from a 60" to a 75" that blows away our old TV so I am happy. Since my theater is not finished we watch some movies on the new TV that don't need the big screen and sound.

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post #8197 of 8271 Old 11-18-2019, 08:46 AM
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Initial impressions are very good. The size is pretty epic. It's both over the top yet looks just right in this sized room. HDR gaming is super cool. I tried out a bunch of games. Witcher 3, Fallen Order, Gears 5, ect. It's pretty impressive. We watched some football and a few things from Netflix. Overall, for a living room setup, I am very happy with it.

I'm glad I went bigger rather than OLED. While I am sure the image quality would have been better with the inky blacks. I just couldn't justify paying more for a smaller size.

Speaking of gaming, Star Wars Fallen Order... I played maybe an hour so far. If you like Uncharted and/or Star Wars you would probably like this game. The graphics are fantastic. It has you doing platforming similar to Uncharted and is very story/character driven with the surrounding cast, also much like Uncharted. The save points and level system remind me a lot of Tomb Raider. Combat is interesting. I am so used to how Witcher 3 plays that moving parry to a different button kind of throws me off. But the controls are probably easier overall.
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post #8198 of 8271 Old 11-19-2019, 11:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Kansas City Area Home Theater Meets and Movie Night Events!

I encourage this little experimentation.

For those of you with multiple sealed subs (I say sealed because ported or horn subs will generate some seriously wonky FR this far above tune) set your mainspeaker to subwoofer crossover to ~250hz and crank “Kings of Leon - Sex on Fire” at reference volume with Dolby Surround and bask in the most powerful kick drum you’ve felt outside of live concerts.

Yes it gets a bit muddy with the crossover that high, no its not a typical or permanent setup, yes its fun for a change of pace.

The idea occurred to me as I read a thread that the poster described missing his 1980 and 1990 speakers with giant 15” woofers and how he couldn’t replicate that with his modern system and subwoofers.
Ummmm. Setup like ^, I don’t think theres a problem replicating that big mid bass sound with incredible intense kick drums with a pile of modern subwoofers.

Thread lamenting lack of 1980s/1990s speaker sizes:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-sp...3103414?page=1

Thing is, it sounds much cleaner with the crossover lower, and so this crossover point is just a temporary experiment. I think our favorite audio memories are really, really nostalgia enhanced. I'm quite positive I remember many of my previous systems (from my youth) with far fonder memories than they deserved!

In the present...I've been listening to music late into the evening the last week or so, de-stressing a bit from a very hectic month. Its been a quite enjoyable. This is a good hobby - as it's always available 24/7 right in your house, and doesn't cost anything specific to speak of with each individual use.
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post #8199 of 8271 Old 11-20-2019, 08:06 AM
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I encourage this little experimentation.

For those of you with sealed subs set your mainspeaker to subwoofer crossover to 250hz and crank “Kings of Leon - Sex on Fire” at reference volume with Dolby Surround and bask in the most powerful kick drum you’ve felt outside of live concerts.

Yes it gets a bit muddy with the crossover that high, no its not a typical or permanent setup, yes its fun for a change of pace.

The idea occurred to me as I read a thread that the poster described missing his 1980 and 1990 speakers with giant 15” woofers and how he couldn’t replicate that with his modern system and subwoofers.
Ummmm. Setup like ^, I don’t think theres a problem replicating that big mid bass sound with incredible intense kick drums!

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-sp...3103414?page=1

Thing is, it sounds much cleaner with the crossover lower, and so its just a temporary experiment. I think our favorite audio memories are really, really nostalgia enhanced. I remember many of my previous systems with fonder memories than they deserved!

In the present...Ive been listening to music late into the evening the last week or so, de-stressing a bit from a very hectic month. Its been a quite enjoyable to unwind with the audio system in the evenings!

I've done that many times, the thing is if you crank it loud enough the muddy-ness of it doesn't matter because you won't notice it because of how loud it is. I don't recommend doing that very often for very long obviously.

Also, I can get more punch from the mains (if I EQ bump the bass) ran as large/no subs than I can from a high crossover to the subs. This does not apply to VNF subs though, the mains obviously can't compete with that. However, 6 JBL 15's vs 8 SI's (all of them up front) the JBL's win when it comes to punchiness. I can get more bass sound from the 18's if I go crazy with the sub trim but it's not as precise and specifically felt in the chest as the 15's. I first found this out with running the fireworks demo, Jonathan I think you were there.
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post #8200 of 8271 Old 11-20-2019, 10:30 PM
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Kansas City Area Home Theater Meets and Movie Night Events!

I have a Kings of Leon concert BR I frequent after watching movies often and I have gone up as high as 120hz, but not as high as you have. The kick drum in it is just so awesome. I turn it back after a couple of songs though because I lose the nice low end of the guitars and his voice from the mids in the main speakers, and it wears me out.

I’m watching One Strange Rock series on Netflix right now, and it is hours of eye candy about earth science. Super cool. A must see on a big screen with deep bass.

Also I acquired the flac version of Fear Inoculum - it is big improvement in detail with this high res file. I’m obviously still drooling over this masterpiece of an album.

Edit - and after a couple more beers, I think I like most of the sound of this album with Dirac disabled, but it hurts the vocal imaging ... I just can’t make up my mind with this thing
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post #8201 of 8271 Old 11-21-2019, 07:31 AM
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However, 6 JBL 15's vs 8 SI's (all of them up front) the JBL's win when it comes to punchiness. I can get more bass sound from the 18's if I go crazy with the sub trim but it's not as precise and specifically felt in the chest as the 15's. I first found this out with running the fireworks demo, Jonathan I think you were there.
I've experienced similar with the skhorn were it just has a massive "punch" that does amazing for quick transients like a firework or large cal gunfire shots that the SI's also do incredible at, but it's just a little different.
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post #8202 of 8271 Old 11-21-2019, 07:42 AM
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Also I acquired the flac version of Fear Inoculum - it is big improvement in detail with this high res file. I’m obviously still drooling over this masterpiece of an album.

Edit - and after a couple more beers, I think I like most of the sound of this album with Dirac disabled, but it hurts the vocal imaging ... I just can’t make up my mind with this thing

May I ask where you found this flac version? I agree, the album is one of my favorites of theirs. I think Invincible is my favorite track with Pneuma a close second. I came across this video last week that describes how the song Fear Inoculum is constructed. Looking fwd to part 2...





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post #8203 of 8271 Old 11-21-2019, 09:27 AM
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Edit - and after a couple more beers, I think I like most of the sound of this album with Dirac disabled, but it hurts the vocal imaging ... I just can’t make up my mind with this thing
For some reason my hearing is pretty consistent with this statement. The more I imbibe, the more I lean towards music without the dirac correction on. Perhaps this is just a thing and more people don't realize it?

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post #8204 of 8271 Old 11-21-2019, 02:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
For those of you with multiple sealed subs (I say sealed because ported or horn subs will generate some seriously wonky FR this far above tune) set your mainspeaker to subwoofer crossover to ~250hz and crank “Kings of Leon - Sex on Fire” at reference volume with Dolby Surround and bask in the most powerful kick drum you’ve felt outside of live concerts

Yes it gets a bit muddy with the crossover that high, no its not a typical or permanent setup, yes its fun for a change of pace.
Note that changing from 80 Hz to 250 Hz requires a 8.5 ms reduction to the delay to maintain the same phase relationship at the crossover. Math is T=1/f (Time=1/Frequency) or 1/80 Hz = .0125 seconds and 1/250 Hz is .004 s. Multiply by 1000 to convert to milliseconds. 12.5 - 4 = 8.5 ms. The reason delay is always performed last in a DSP signal chain is because it is dependent on two things: level and frequency.

A couple years ago I took a 3 day class in Chicago on subwoofer and speaker alignment. This is one of the first slides:

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post #8205 of 8271 Old 11-21-2019, 02:47 PM - Thread Starter
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Note that changing from 80 Hz to 250 Hz requires a 8.5 ms reduction to the delay to maintain the same phase relationship at the crossover. Math is T=1/f (Time=1/Frequency) or 1/80 Hz = .0125 seconds and 1/250 Hz is .004 s. Multiply by 1000 to convert to milliseconds. 12.5 - 4 = 8.5 ms. The reason delay is always performed last in a DSP signal chain is because it is dependent on two things: level and frequency.



A couple years ago I took a 3 day class in Chicago on subwoofer and speaker alignment. This is one of the first slides:





Interesting!

So excuse my question, but I want to understand, if you are changing the delay based on the crossover frequency is that only fixing the higher 250hz frequencies and now your lower frequencies are off by that same 8.5ms?


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post #8206 of 8271 Old 11-21-2019, 04:39 PM
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Interesting!

So excuse my question, but I want to understand, if you are changing the delay based on the crossover frequency is that only fixing the higher 250hz frequencies and now your lower frequencies are off by that same 8.5ms?


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The article Time & Phase Alignment by Bob McCarthy explains it very well (for some reason the illustrations aren't showing up today):

Now on to our second analogy: freight trains. When did the train cross Main Street? The first car crossed at 12:00 but the last one did not cross until 12:05. Our loudspeakers cross the mix position like that.

First the highs, and then later, the lows. Let’s give each octave it’s own car and see how it works. If we had a loudspeaker with 4 ms of phase delay per octave, we would see evenly sized cars that are a total of 36 ms long.

Now let’s move this closer to audio reality. The first six cars (16 kHz to 500 Hz) are so small they only occupy 0.5 ms of track, but after that the cars get bigger and bigger until they stretch all the way to 36 ms (like the previous one).That would be a terrible loudspeaker, but stick with me here. We could have another train running next to it on a parallel track. Each car would line up to its counterpart, i.e., the trains have lots of phase delay but zero phase offset. They are time aligned.

If we run this train next to the first one, they will match at the first and last cars – but the middle cars don’t match. The front and rear cars are time aligned but the middle section is full of phase offset. The systems are not “phase compatible.”

How do we connect a main train to a subwoofer train? This is a series connection (unlike the time alignment on the parallel track). Connect the rear of the main train to the front of the subwoofer train. The cars are phase aligned at the coupler between the two sections.

We can time align a full-range loudspeaker to a full-range loudspeaker or a subwoofer to a subwoofer since each pairing covers the same range. It’s when we want to marry mains to subs that time alignment goes out the window in favor of phase alignment.

The same principal applies for a crossover between an HF driver and a LF driver in a 2-way box, but in the modern world, this is handled by the manufacturers, right?

So how do you do it? That’s the easy part. Time alignment is a 3-step process. Use the impulse response because it will give readings directly in the applicable unit: time. Observe the impulse response of A (solo), and then B (solo), and delay whoever got there first.

Then take a look at the frequency responses and verify that maximum addition has occurred. A little trick here is to observe the highest frequency range bump the delay up or down by the smallest allowable increment (e.g., 0.01 ms) and see what gives the best addition.

Phase alignment follows the same steps, but we are going to use the phase response instead of the impulse. Look at A solo, then B solo, and add delay to the early one until the phase responses match. Polarity inversion can be considered in cases where this allows for a smaller amount of delay to be used.

There are many ways to approach the alignment of sources that mix together. All of them affect phase and time. It’s very helpful to know which of the alignment paths is most suitable to your particular application. For example, a 100 Hz crossover might be phase aligned by 7 ms of delay on the subs or 2 ms and a polarity reversal. The later approach minimizes the overall time spread over the spectrum. Another approach to minimize overall time stretching could be all-pass filters in the affected area.


You can also read Barry Ober's white paper on almost everything you ever wanted to know about subwoofers.

By the way, phase alignment at the crossover is always preserved by either using the correct delay, or by subtracting half a cycle of delay in combination with a polarity reversal. This is what Bob is talking about when he says "phase aligned by 7 ms of delay on the subs or 2 ms and a polarity reversal." For example, if you need 25 ms of delay with an 80 Hz crossover, you can
1. use 25 ms
2. take half of 12.5 ms (one cycle at 80 Hz) and subtract from 25. 25 - 6.25 = 19 ms and then reverse polarity.

Reverse polarity on a subwoofer is not a sign that the calibration is messed up. It is a tool in the toolbox of a good calibrator when using receivers that don't provide enough delay. For example, Marantz/Denon only allow for 20 ms of maximum delay. This is rarely enough for any normal sized theater due to the one cycle of acoustic delay added when using a crossover.
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post #8207 of 8271 Old 11-21-2019, 04:51 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the summary post and link DD!

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post #8208 of 8271 Old 11-23-2019, 10:14 AM - Thread Starter
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This is totally off topic, but what do you guys think of the new CyberTruck from Tesla?

I balked at its looks, until I saw this:
https://techcrunch.com/2019/11/22/te...ion-says-musk/

15 miles per day recharge if you buy the optional solar panel bed cover.

That could make it for some owners that they don't ever need a charging station. THATS PRETTY COOL!

I only work 3 days a week from the office now. I'd ALMOST fit into that never charge category if I left it outside on the driveway at home and parked on the garage roof at work. The rolled stainless steel exterior means no concern about rust leaving it outside. Suddenly the truck seems a lot more interesting. $40k is STILL a lot of money though... I've never bought a vehicle even remotely close to that price. I always buy used - I think my most expensive vehicle was just under $15K. 10 year full warranty over batteries and drive train and potentially NO fuel cost ever (if used as a secondary, or light use vehicle) make it really something I will have to chew on.


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post #8209 of 8271 Old 11-23-2019, 01:13 PM
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If it’s like the other Teslas, every add on is an extra $5k. The 3 starts at $35k (I think), but quickly balloons to closer to $45-50k for the options most everyone wants.


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post #8210 of 8271 Old 11-23-2019, 02:41 PM - Thread Starter
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BOSS time for some of you!

https://slickdeals.net/f/13610062-jb...99?v=1&src=tdw
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post #8211 of 8271 Old 11-23-2019, 03:25 PM
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I am interested in the Tesala pick up before I knew about the solar charging, but that kind uos it some. I am also looking the new Jeep Gladiator.



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post #8212 of 8271 Old 11-23-2019, 05:01 PM
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How many hours does that Total Recall truck need to charge using the yellow sun? I park in the garage. So my cars see the light of the Kansas winter day for 8 ish hours.
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post #8213 of 8271 Old 11-26-2019, 07:27 AM - Thread Starter
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https://www.avsforum.com/forum/149-b...ble.html?amp=1

Within the last year or so, Panasonic seems to have re-released the raved about dp-ub820 4k bluray player in a cheaper package. You give up analogue outputs and Dolby Vision, but keep everything else and the MSRP is half.

Best Buy has it on sale right now for $190. $60 off.
https://www.bestbuy.com/site/panason...E&gclsrc=aw.ds

I know @carp uses one of the dp-ub820 units for the HDR sliders on his projector, and thinks its worthwhile. I don’t have one yet, but probably will pick it up. Upscaler for 1080p is supposed to be top notch too from what I read.

Does anyone else have experiences with these players in KC?

The dp-ub820 is on sale for $400 as well. $100 off.


This appears to be the cheapest they've been. Amazon pricematched:
420
https://camelcamelcamel.com/product/...context=search
820
https://camelcamelcamel.com/product/...context=search

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Last edited by Archaea; 11-26-2019 at 08:34 AM.
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post #8214 of 8271 Old 11-26-2019, 05:11 PM
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I thought I had the 900... let me check real quick...

Yeah mine is the 900. I don't know if there is much of a difference though. That HDR slider is great.
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post #8215 of 8271 Old 11-26-2019, 05:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post
I thought I had the 900... let me check real quick...

Yeah mine is the 900. I don't know if there is much of a difference though. That HDR slider is great.

Whoops!
Looks like the 820 and 420 are a step down in build quality/feel, and no backlit remote, but a step up in tech in that they both add streaming 4k capability for the big three Netflix (also allows for Dolby Atmos), YouTube, and Amazon Prime.


For BluRay and 4K UHD disk - these have the same hardware as your 900, which is, I suspect, the most important reason to buy these types of players IMO. It can strip HDR, or adjust HDR metadata at your preference and still pass BT2020 color standard. (similar to a HD Fury linker, but a bit better for the sources it can pass - from what I read).


I'll update later after I've picked up my 420 to relay whether I think it's of benefit. (Should be of benefit for anything short of a true HDR 18Gbps capable 4K projector - and may still be of benefit for the upscaling even there).


Reviewed here:
https://www.soundandvision.com/content/panasonic-dp-ub820-ultra-hd-blu-ray-player-review

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post #8216 of 8271 Old 11-27-2019, 08:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
Whoops!
Looks like the 820 and 420 are a step down in build quality/feel, and no backlit remote, but a step up in tech in that they both add streaming 4k capability for the big three Netflix (also allows for Dolby Atmos), YouTube, and Amazon Prime.


For BluRay and 4K UHD disk - these have the same hardware as your 900, which is, I suspect, the most important reason to buy these types of players IMO. It can strip HDR, or adjust HDR metadata at your preference and still pass BT2020 color standard. (similar to a HD Fury linker, but a bit better for the sources it can pass - from what I read).


I'll update later after I've picked up my 420 to relay whether I think it's of benefit. (Should be of benefit for anything short of a true HDR 18Gbps capable 4K projector - and may still be of benefit for the upscaling even there).


Reviewed here:
https://www.soundandvision.com/content/panasonic-dp-ub820-ultra-hd-blu-ray-player-review

Ive had the 820 now for a while and love it. FWIW you can order the much nicer remote from the 900 off of ebay for around $50 or so. I absolutely HAD to do that after coming from the 900 as the 820 remote was just super cheapo feeling after being used to the nicer one. The 820 adds a few other settings for HDR tone mapping that the 900 doesn't have. Aside from the slider which I agree is indispensable for all but the new JVC's with their most recent update. Which renders all of the 820's HDR processing pretty much useless.

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post #8217 of 8271 Old 11-28-2019, 09:59 AM
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Yeah I was going to mention to anyone looking at these players for the HDR slider function that it is only useful for projectors that have trouble tone mapping HDR. If you have a Lumagen/MadVR you don't need an HDR slider. And then of course if you have a JVC with the Dynamic Tone Mapping you need a UHD player to send the signal as source direct. That means a non tone mapped pure signal that way your JVC can have the full band width to tone map using its own proprietary algorithm to the requested brightness.

Oh and there's like a crap ton of UHD movies for sale at around $10 right now on BB but selling out quick. Some on Amazon/Walmart as well.

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post #8218 of 8271 Old 11-30-2019, 08:08 AM - Thread Starter
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Good price on mono price speaker wire right now
40% off

https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=2817

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(13) JBL CBT 70j-1 | Denon x7200wa | Sherbourn PA 7-350 amplifier | (8) Ultimax 18" sealed subwoofers | (4) iNuke DSP 6000 amplifiers | (4) MB Quart 12" subwoofers mounted direct mounted to Berkline theater chairs BOSS style | Epson 5040UB Projector | Jamestown 144" acoustic transparent 2.35:1 screen w/ Seymour XD fabric
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post #8219 of 8271 Old 11-30-2019, 09:15 AM
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Quote:
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Good price on mono price speaker wire right now
40% off

https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=2817
Yep! Got me a roll yesterday.

11.2 Home Theater: SPEAKERS: Front Main-Mirage OMD-28's, Center-Mirage OMD-C2, Front High-Mirage OMD-5's, Front Wide-Mirage OMD-5's, Side & Rear Surrounds-Mirage OMD-5's, Subwoofers, (2) Klipsch R-112SW. EQUIP: Receiver:Denon AVR-X8500H, Amplifier: Emotiva XPA-3, Projector:3D Epson PowerLite Home Cinema 5030UB, Screen: Draper 3D PREMIER TECVISION 161" HDTV (16:9) XT1800X WHITE, Blu-ray Player:Oppo UDP-203, Gaming: Xbox One X
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post #8220 of 8271 Old 11-30-2019, 10:47 AM
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Has anyone gotten Disney + and watched the Mandalorian? Its pretty good and you have access to all of Disney movies and shows.
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