February 2017 - Kansas City Home Theater Crawl - Page 36 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1051 of 1408 Old 02-20-2017, 09:02 AM
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Thank you @Archaea for putting together a great weekend of activities. Everyone's home theaters were awesome to experience and has helped me decide doing some changes to my theater that I am building and confirmed that I want Dolby Atmos and eventually 4K in some form, probably the Epson 5040 or 6040.

After telling me wife what I seen and heard this weekend I doubt I will be getting the 4000ULF anytime soon or much more bass then I have now from what she said. The thing is I haven't had my current subs turned up in our house for a long time I need to do that and see how it sounds upstairs. It appears though that no amount of soundproofing is going to stop that amount of base all of you guys have in your theaters so I am not going to go to nuts with it to save a little money if I can.

With any luck I hope to at least have my theater closer to a usable room latter this fall. After reading some of your guys builds and the Savoy it takes to time to do it right if you are doing it yourself.

Thanks again to all the gracious host and hospitality and d_c the food was wonderful and I hope to someday return the favor.

By the way I am glad I stayed home yesterday, I was one tired old guy, but it was a lot of fun.
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post #1052 of 1408 Old 02-20-2017, 09:41 AM
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Thank you to all the hosts. Was great to put faces to names, and experience all the fantastic theaters. Thanks to you guys I'll be spending even more money on my theater build

@d_c thank you for all the amazing food. I'm sorry I walked out without saying thanks in person.

@Archaea thanks for putting all this together. I'm sure it was no picnic.
My thoughts exactly. I felt like I snuck away from some of the demos without giving proper thanks to the hosts but I do appreciate you sharing your spaces with us. And thanks to @Archaea and all the others for putting this together. It was great to get a glimpse into the HT scene that we have here in KC.
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post #1053 of 1408 Old 02-20-2017, 10:12 AM
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All of you KC HT hosts (+dlbeck) deserve a huge thank you from those able to attend and those just watching from home. Obviously a lot of effort went into this and some traveled very long distances to attend making this a notable event in the history of AVS HT Meets/GTG's. Again, well done to you all and looking forward to your casual and more detailed comments. Very

Will all of those be posted here, or will there be another thread be created for comments, measurements etc?
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post #1054 of 1408 Old 02-20-2017, 10:59 AM
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post #1055 of 1408 Old 02-20-2017, 11:02 AM
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Hey @carp - did you find anything in the lost and found at your place? I'm looking for my iphone cord and my liver
I found the cord, your liver is at Derek's.
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post #1056 of 1408 Old 02-20-2017, 11:11 AM
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Sorry to the guys that wanted to hear comparisons of the nearfield sub on and off, Crowson on and off, ceiling speakers on and off etc. yesterday.

I'm am more of a "along for the ride" guy and let others take the lead. Plus I usually just end up drinking and acting stupid - not the best host for something like this. I thought we would have time to demo the 4000 and also do all that other stuff, I should have known better...
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post #1057 of 1408 Old 02-20-2017, 11:27 AM
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Originally Posted by carp View Post
Sorry to the guys that wanted to hear comparisons of the nearfield sub on and off, Crowson on and off, ceiling speakers on and off etc. yesterday.



I'm am more of a "along for the ride" guy and let others take the lead. Plus I usually just end up drinking and acting stupid - not the best host for something like this. I thought we would have time to demo the 4000 and also do all that other stuff, I should have known better...


So how did the 4000ULF stack up to the 8 18's?


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post #1058 of 1408 Old 02-20-2017, 11:58 AM
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^^^^^ me too. I'm sorry for the complete clusterf*^k at my house. The first group kind of got to see what was happening, but for those who were wondering what the heck was happening, here it is:

The hard disc on my HTPC crashed fatally at about 9am the morning of the Crawl. So, I had no way to show demos since I do everything on the HTPC with either Spotify or jRiver. I only own 2 demo discs Jon gave me, which I don't even remember what was on them. Also, my drywallers were supposed to start rock, mud and tape my basement Wednesday, but didn't start til Friday at 345 and only stayed 2 hours. They showed up at 8am Saturday of the Crawl and didn't finish til 1140. 20 minutes before the first group showed up! Jeff, my daughter, and wife cleaned up the mess while people started to show up. We were trying to get the room clean so Jeff could set up his JTR gear to demo for people coming for lunch. HuskerOmaha showed up a little early so he helped with getting the JTR 212ht and Cap 4000ULF in to the house for Jeff. Luckily, everyone was starving so we just started eating food - the one thing that was actually ready to go. Had never hooked my new laptop to the system, but Brad hooked everything connected for me 30 minutes and we were able to get some Spotify going while people ate. THANKS BRAD! Then they were having issues getting sound out of the processor for the demos downstairs so I was trying to help get things together for them, and I was running up and down the stairs getting people in and out as the next groups showed up, trying to get demo tracks going, folks wanted to hear the JTR 210rt so had to get those hooked up, saying hello to folks I haven't seen in two years, answering questions and trying to be cordial with folks I didn't know who were being polite and saying "hello" - all the while I was about to freak the f&^k out... but then I decided that I would just take track requests from people and we would focus on hanging out, eating some food, relaxing, and drinking a few beers. Then all was good! We ended up streaming BT from my phone to the Yamaha thingymajig DD had in my basement and the JTR cap4000 started to destroy my house. It was crazy. The fabric on my shorts was flapping 19' away from the corner loaded sub and I eventually had to leave the room because I started feeling like I had a concussion. It was pretty cool that I was able to find all of the places that the drywall needed to be screwed in better. Thanks Jeff! The kitchen floor above the room looked like it was bouncing with about of 1/2" of travel because of the pressure downstairs. I can't believe no tiles popped up.

Things went up hill the rest of the weekend. Brad hung out after everyone left around 2 and we had a couple of beers and listened to the 210s, which are amazing. Then I swung by Derek's to drop some precious liquids off to find him sleeping in his HT with all the lights out. His son woke him up and Derek screamed like a little girl. That was awesome! I was able to go meet up with group A at Chirpie's and see his awesome theater and chat with guys in that group. Amazing what a well placed 12" SVS can sound like when well placed, Bravo!

Then jetted over to Grant's to check out all of his new gear. The JBL surrounds sound so much better for Atmos, much more defined and capable. The new addition of the OS I didn't feel were any louder or bassier, but filled the theater with more even ULF with a greater punch - much more tight sounding. Desertdome did a nice job of getting that set up. The black levels of the rs520 are insane. It's something that you would have to see to believe. He added velvet to the front of the room which he says helped a ton with the black levels and reflections of side walls and ceiling.

Then

so, then...

We had some dinner at the Blue Moose and headed over to Carp's, which is the first time I heard the all JBL setup. Man, the mains are killer for live music as I fully expected. I didn't hear them before the CD upgrade, but the top end is like buttter - but tastier and lower calorie. I didn't jump in to the MLP, but I'm itching to watch all of Through the Never in that seat ASAFP.

AND THEN we headed over to Dereks and there was more of the 4000ulf and lots of drinking. The Right coast guys had to go home early to watch Wheel of Fortune or something... such a shame, such a shame...

And then we stayed up til practically daytime sipping on water and reading the bible. Next thing I know, Jon is waking me up and telling me it's time for more abuse over at Carp's house. Thankfully they already had the 4000 up the stairs and loaded up. I walked around in a stupor for about an hour before I was able to get my sh*t together and speak in full sentences. Is was in perfect KC style to be 70 degrees in the middle of February, so I pretty much hung out on the deck and enjoyed the day while talking with what was left of the crew - probably about 20 folks left at this point. The 212ht pair and the Cap 4000 was abusing Carp's house about like it was mine, but I avoided it altogether since I was suffering from renal failure from the previous nights activities.

Then we headed over to my house and listed to the JTR 210rt for a little bit while planning for a little excursion on my pontoon. We drained some more beer from the keg and cruised around for a couple of hours while enjoying the absolutely perfect weather. The guys wanted a quick photo and everybody at once went to the front of the boat, causing it to do a stoppie and plunging the front 6' of the deck underwater. It was freaking hilarious. Scott asked me if the fish in my lake wear pants - dafuq Scott?! Brandon farmed a bunch of yards and ripped around the hood in the golf cart.

THEN we wrapped it up and everyone headed off while I stayed at home and endured the wrath of my wife - SOMEBODY broke the news to her that I got some new JTR 210rt. She was not nearly as fired up that I was about them, or at least not in the same way. We listened to some nice acoustic tracks for a little while and my beatings subsided because of the incredible imagery of the 210s and their sweet and articulate mids. It was the first time I was able to really enjoy them in the MLP since they arrived during the chaos of the day before. Tomorrow I will hook up Carp's Crown amp up to them and have a few hours to get to know the 210s. I can't wait!
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post #1059 of 1408 Old 02-20-2017, 12:24 PM
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The 4000 is the most impressive commercially available single sub I have heard. It's awesome.

We didn't do a comparison yesterday, we had the 4000 and a pair of the less expensive 212's hooked up so my system wasn't on at all. However, I have heard the scenes that were used on the 4000 a lot, and I know it's a similar experience. They were running Flight of the Phoenix and Interstellar a lot so I heard both of those in my room and felt them upstairs in my kitchen and dining room. It was very violent and impactful and my dining room table was going nuts but it does the same thing with my 8 sealed.

I'd say that being in the HT room the effect was a lot like my 8 sealed, but not as crazy as sitting in the main LP seat with the nearfield sub and crowson on.

So, pretty close for 8 sealed and 1 4000 - however - that was on scenes that were mostly 30 hz bass. If I were in the room for scenes that had bass closer to port tune I'm pretty sure the 4000 would have an advantage.

I still like the small foot print of my 2 sets of 4 sealed subs stacked floor to ceiling and I don't feel the need to make any changes or anything, honestly I have more bass than I need as is. I didn't want to blast peoples ears at the crawl, so really the only heavy bass scene I did was John Wick.

Jeff likes to point the drivers into the corner but I think I would have liked it faced the other way better so you could feel the wind blasts, I loved that about the Caps when I owned a pair.

When you break down the price of the 4000 it's a GREAT value. I spent a total of just under 2900 for my flat packs, drivers, amp to drive it all, and minidsp so basically the same price as a single sub that has - similar output (more down low, similar around 30hz, and less above).

I still have the 4000 so I plan on doing some testing. I have a feeling that I'll like my sealed better for scenes like the John Wick club scene because a lot of that punch and hit is higher up, were the 8 sealed would have quite a headroom advantage from 40 hz and up. Now, I don't get the full 18 db's more than the line you see here for the SI subs but it's not too far off.




Bottom line, for pretty much all bass enthusiasts - even most of the crazies - 2 of the 4000 (because you can't just buy one!!) would be more than they would ever need.
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post #1060 of 1408 Old 02-20-2017, 12:24 PM
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@d_c Then what???? THEN WHAT???? Don't leave me hanging!
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post #1061 of 1408 Old 02-20-2017, 12:26 PM
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post #1062 of 1408 Old 02-20-2017, 12:30 PM
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@d_c Then what???? THEN WHAT???? Don't leave me hanging!
No AND THEN!! I was hungry and got tired of typing. I'll AND THEN later after my hands have rested. Stop yelling at me.

edit - OK, I finished the post

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post #1063 of 1408 Old 02-20-2017, 12:39 PM
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It was a great crawl. Thanks to all the host for putting this on. Thanks to Jonathan for being the ringleader in planning such a huge event. Thanks to sponsors that brought gear and came to hangout. Thanks to Doug for feeding us.

I took a lot of ideas away from this event. Each room had it's own unique features. Hopefully, I will get my butt in gear and have my room finished in time for the next crawl.
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post #1064 of 1408 Old 02-20-2017, 12:56 PM
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Hopefully, I will get my butt in gear and have my room finished in time for the next crawl.
You and me both, buddy
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post #1065 of 1408 Old 02-20-2017, 01:04 PM
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will add to later
What a great time I had this weekend.

Friday Jon Wick 2 was a lot of fun. Hadn't been to the Alamo Drafthouse before and enjoyed it. cvinfig condo was amazing on all levels. I spent a lot of time on the deck enjoying the views and conversation. The theater was beautiful and I loved the robots. It got me so stoked for Saturday I hardly slept that night.

I was in group B so will report in that order.

JDontee's theater was a very inviting space. First rear projector setup I have been to in home and it was great. Any light in my theater washes out the picture, and this was not an issue on his setup. Great setup for entertaining on sports night when lights on is desired.



Archaea theater was great and his all matching speakers work great. His three main seats always bring the bass and just a great place to hang out. The trivia game is always fun and once again enjoyed that to mix it up.



d_c was up next for lunch. A+ as usual with the grub. Nails it on all endeavors; food, DIY, salt aquariums... a true man of many talents. Doing measurements had dominguez1 and myself lagging behind the rest of the group and didn't get a chance for much time with his system this round or measurements. Thanks for the food and hospitality!

ChldsPlay had one of my favorite looking theaters of the crawl IMO. I will say the Battlefront and Jon Wick clips were beyond my comfortable listening levels at +2 dB above reference. I believe he stated his room was calibrated by Jeff Meier? He had probably the most balanced sound and smoothest frequency response capture of the crawl. When testing he opened a hidden door in the theater into another side room that was a real hidden gem. Very cool.



jedimastergrant has made many changes since my last visit. The picture thrown by his new JVC along with his added black velvet treatments was fantastic. The new surround install with new locations and atmos was great. His theater design is on point and one of my favorite rooms. Something was up with my measurements, I think it was reverting to 2 channel full range or something and the subs aren't showing in the graph. I believe this is pretty much his 212's playing full range.



chirpie has I think one of the oldest theaters on the crawl. It was really impressive the quality he is rewarded with even though his equipment isn't the newest on the crawl. His old SVS 12" sub really outperforms in his space. Cool home that I believe he said was a California split? He stated they are building a new house which will include an over 6000 cu. ft. theater. Glad we had the opportunity to check out his current pad and theater. Unfortunately all I had was the Omnimic CD and he has no CD playback capability in his htpc based theater so no measurements.

stoked21 has a sweet basement theater space with a huge countertop bar/kitchen area and seating area for a chat. Like his color choices of the gold, red, black in the theater. Per stoked he has the best atmos and even though he has had the calibration woes, it sounded very good. Loved his film frame artwork in the stairway to the basement. Big shout out to hosting the end day gtg with this large group.



carp is another theater I have been to several times but there has been a change or two since last time. It just keeps getting better. All new speakers sounded wonderful and the new projector performed great. Most tactile theater of the day. We stayed a bit late to play with his nearfield, crowsons, and dual stacks of subs up front. I could spend days there just trying everything out. Nothing better than walking in the front door and being offered a cold beer. Carp is such a nice and welcoming guy, I can't believe he almost got stabbed Friday night.



The hosts were all fantastic and everything went about as smooth as possible IMO on a crawl of this size. Great group of people came and it was a pleasure meeting several of you and putting a face to the screen name. The vendors Mark, Mike, Jeff, and Micheal are such assests to the community and so glad they could make it. Archaea once again got the ball rolling and helped setup what may be my favorite home theater crawl yet. Thanks so much to those that helped make it happen. The new JVC projectors are a real delight and throw a top notch picture. I preferred the bass presentation on the riser in every theater vs. the concrete floor.

All measurements MLP Omnimic track 2 with 1/12 smoothing. All taken at -15 dB from reference.



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post #1066 of 1408 Old 02-20-2017, 01:33 PM
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Ok, so I have to say this. I hated the sound of the 212's yesterday. I couldn't even be in the room for any length of time. They were ear piercingly bright/sharp/ouch/ouch/ouch.

I thought maybe it was the fact that my ears were raw from all the loud clips the day before, but I had a feeling that wasn't right.... and that was confirmed later in the day when Doug cranked up his 210's and they sounded amazing as always.

So, just now I fired up the 212's and here is the result:



Michael I should have said something to you, but again I didn't trust it because I thought it could just be tired ears. Man, I wish everyone could hear what I am hearing right now!

Now... it could be that they were being played way louder than I just heard them? I don't think so though.... I just cranked it up again with ease.

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post #1067 of 1408 Old 02-20-2017, 01:55 PM
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Still sitting here listening. These are great!
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post #1068 of 1408 Old 02-20-2017, 02:07 PM
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I still have the 4000 so I plan on doing some testing. I have a feeling that I'll like my sealed better for scenes like the John Wick club scene because a lot of that punch and hit is higher up, were the 8 sealed would have quite a headroom advantage from 40 hz and up. Now, I don't get the full 18 db's more than the line you see here for the SI subs but it's not too far off.

What headroom advantage for your 8 sealed? Aren't you using a Cerwin Vega CV-5000 to power all 8 drivers? The amp is rated at 2500 watts per channel at 2 ohms which is 70.7 volts per channel. So each driver is getting about a maximum of 18 volts. The single SI driver in the Data-Bass chart is getting 126 v at 40 Hz, 189 v at 50 Hz, and 283 v from 60 Hz and up. With every halving of voltage, SPL drops by 6 dB. The Cap 4000ULF was measured by Data-Bass with its actual amp. A single Cap 4000ULF should have 10 dB more CEA-2010 max burst than your system of 8 SI drivers from 40 Hz and up.

The Cap 4000ULF was not being played at its maximum capacity yesterday. You asked that we not damage anything.
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post #1069 of 1408 Old 02-20-2017, 02:20 PM
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What headroom advantage for your 8 sealed? Aren't you using a Cerwin Vega CV-5000 to power all 8 drivers? The amp is rated at 2500 watts per channel at 2 ohms which is 70.7 volts per channel. So each driver is getting about a maximum of 18 volts. The single SI driver in the Data-Bass chart is getting 126 v at 40 Hz, 189 v at 50 Hz, and 283 v from 60 Hz and up. With every halving of voltage, SPL drops by 6 dB. The Cap 4000ULF was measured by Data-Bass with its actual amp. A single Cap 4000ULF should have 10 dB more CEA-2010 max burst than your system of 8 SI drivers from 40 Hz and up.

The Cap 4000ULF was not being played at its maximum capacity yesterday. You asked that we not damage anything.

Right, I'm under powered for sure. Still, above 40 hz it's less than a 10 db difference. I get 15 ish db's of boost above 40 hz from 1 sub to 8. So, that's 5 db's more which I'm guessing would more than make up for the fact that I'm under powering them, but maybe not.

Doesn't really matter... I have all the subs I can just compare for myself, I don't mind finding max output when I have the remote!
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post #1070 of 1408 Old 02-20-2017, 02:23 PM
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Ok, so I have to say this. I hated the sound of the 212's yesterday. I couldn't even be in the room for any length of time. They were ear piercingly bright/sharp/ouch/ouch/ouch.
Yes, they were very bright sounding and it was worse at loud volumes and with some content. We even double checked the measurements initially and all settings. The Cherry amps I brought are brighter than the Maraschino amps (Jonathan would disagree ). Not sure if that is what was the issue since I didn't have another amp handy.

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post #1071 of 1408 Old 02-20-2017, 02:23 PM
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ChldsPlay had one of my favorite looking theaters of the crawl IMO. I will say the Battlefront and Jon Wick clips were beyond my comfortable listening levels at +2 dB above reference. I believe he stated his room was calibrated by Jeff Meier? He had probably the most balanced sound and smoothest frequency response capture of the crawl. When testing he opened a hidden door in the theater into another side room that was a real hidden gem. Very cool.

Sorry about that. I'm not sure what I was looking at on my tablet.

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LCR speakers - JTR Noesis 228 HT (3); Surr./Back - Klipsch Pro Cinema KPT-8000M (4)
Atmos In-ceiling - Niles DS8HD (4); Subs - Passive JTR Captivator Pro (2)
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post #1072 of 1408 Old 02-20-2017, 02:26 PM
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Originally Posted by ChldsPlay View Post
Sorry about that. I'm not sure what I was looking at on my tablet.
You even texted the hosts saying "Oops" after it happened. lol.
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post #1073 of 1408 Old 02-20-2017, 02:30 PM
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Wait.... 10 db advantage from 40 hz and above? If that's true I really am getting rid of all my subs and buying a 4000.
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post #1074 of 1408 Old 02-20-2017, 02:36 PM
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Sorry about that. I'm not sure what I was looking at on my tablet.
No worries dude stuff happens. Room full of bodies and you down in back corner, tough to tell what spl is in front row. I don't think the other groups had the same levels did they? Once again awesome theater!
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post #1075 of 1408 Old 02-20-2017, 02:39 PM
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Originally Posted by carp View Post
Wait.... 10 db advantage from 40 hz and above? If that's true I really am getting rid of all my subs and buying a 4000.
Color me skeptical, but that would also mean if you jumped up to 32x SIs and 4x CV-5000 you'd only have a 2db advantage over the 4000 from 40hz+? Something doesn't sound right here...
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post #1076 of 1408 Old 02-20-2017, 02:39 PM - Thread Starter
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DD,

Half power is 6dB loss? I thought every doubling of power was 3dB. Quadrupling power was 6dB.

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208 identical 1" tweeters, 52 identical 5" woofers, and 8 identical 18" subwoofers work in uniform to deliver an unquantifiably great experience!
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post #1077 of 1408 Old 02-20-2017, 02:40 PM
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Yes, they were very bright sounding and it was worse at loud volumes and with some content. We even double checked the measurements initially and all settings. The Cherry amps I brought are brighter than the Maraschino amps (Jonathan would disagree ). Not sure if that is what was the issue since I didn't have another amp handy.
I think there was something definitely wrong somewhere in the chain. I listened to a couple songs early on and didn't venture back down there until the main bass demo and I had to cover my ears to stay in the room for that. Might want to have the laptop that was used as a source checked out...
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post #1078 of 1408 Old 02-20-2017, 02:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Luke Kamp View Post
No worries dude stuff happens. Room full of bodies and you down in back corner, tough to tell what spl is in front row. I don't think the other groups had the same levels did they? Once again awesome theater!
No, it was just that one group. For the last group I turned things down a little from what I originally meant to have them at too.

The Hodor Theater - Now with Atmos
Projector - JVC D-ILA NX7; Receiver - Yamaha Adventage A3050
LCR speakers - JTR Noesis 228 HT (3); Surr./Back - Klipsch Pro Cinema KPT-8000M (4)
Atmos In-ceiling - Niles DS8HD (4); Subs - Passive JTR Captivator Pro (2)
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post #1079 of 1408 Old 02-20-2017, 02:43 PM
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Right, I'm under powered for sure. Still, above 40 hz it's less than a 10 db difference. I get 15 ish db's of boost above 40 hz from 1 sub to 8. So, that's 5 db's more which I'm guessing would more than make up for the fact that I'm under powering them, but maybe not.

Doesn't really matter... I have all the subs I can just compare for myself, I don't mind finding max output when I have the remote!
Here is the math.

126 volts vs 18 volts at 40 Hz is a drop of 17.25 dB. The 8 SI would have 8.85 dB less than the Cap 4000 ULF.
189 volts vs 18 volts at 50 Hz is a drop of 20.75 dB. The 8 SI would have 11.15 dB less than the Cap 4000 ULF.
283 volts vs 18 volts at 63 and 80 Hz is a drop of 24.25 dB. The 8 SI would have 10.95 dB less than the Cap 4000 ULF.

With your power, the 8 SI subs have less output than even a single SI as tested by Data-Bass from 63 Hz and up.

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post #1080 of 1408 Old 02-20-2017, 02:45 PM
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Wait.... 10 db advantage from 40 hz and above? If that's true I really am getting rid of all my subs and buying a 4000.
Its a bit more complicated than that. Compression, wall power... You have 4 times the driver surface area above port tune so good efficiency. Even though cerwin vega not as efficient as speaker power amp, you can pop that 20 amp breaker. I would be highly surprised if 10 dB advantage in your room off 20 amp line. I wouldnt change a thing if I were you. Now the fact we are even discussing this is a testament to the power of the 4000 ulf. What a monster of a sub!
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