February 2017 - Kansas City Home Theater Crawl - Page 37 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1081 of 1408 Old 02-20-2017, 01:45 PM
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Originally Posted by lukeamdman View Post
Color me skeptical, but that would also mean if you jumped up to 32x SIs and 4x CV-5000 you'd only have a 2db advantage over the 4000 from 40hz+? Something doesn't sound right here...
Yeah, no way. Just no way.
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post #1082 of 1408 Old 02-20-2017, 01:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by desertdome View Post
Here is the math.

126 volts vs 18 volts at 40 Hz is a drop of 17.25 dB. The 8 SI would have 8.85 dB less than the Cap 4000 ULF.
189 volts vs 18 volts at 50 Hz is a drop of 20.75 dB. The 8 SI would have 11.15 dB less than the Cap 4000 ULF.
283 volts vs 18 volts at 63 and 80 Hz is a drop of 24.25 dB. The 8 SI would have 10.95 dB less than the Cap 4000 ULF.

With your power, the 8 SI subs have less output than even a single SI as tested by Data-Bass from 63 Hz and up.
Is the increased efficiency of going from 1xSI to 8xSI being accounted for? If one SI is 89db efficient then having 8 would increase that to 98db. The same voltage would go a lot further.
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post #1083 of 1408 Old 02-20-2017, 01:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Luke Kamp View Post
Its a bit more complicated than that. Compression, wall power... You have 4 times the driver surface area above port tune so good efficiency. Even though cerwin vega not as efficient as speaker power amp, you can pop that 20 amp breaker. I would be highly surprised if 10 dB advantage in your room off 20 amp line. I wouldnt change a thing if I were you. Now the fact we are even discussing this is a testament to the power of the 4000 ulf. What a monster of a sub!

Right!

This sub is awesome!! I hope people aren't taking what I'm saying the wrong way, I just want to be realistic.

I'll do some testing, but my guess is that from 20 hz and down the 4000 has an advantage as you get closer to port tune, and then going up to around 30hz they are about even, and then at 40 hz and above the SI's have an advantage. If I'm wrong you know I'll be back here saying so!!!
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post #1084 of 1408 Old 02-20-2017, 01:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
DD,

Half power is 6dB loss? I thought every doubling of power was 3dB. Quadrupling power was 6dB.
Half the watts is a loss of 3 dB.
Half the voltage is a loss of 6 dB.

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post #1085 of 1408 Old 02-20-2017, 02:19 PM
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Originally Posted by lukeamdman View Post
Is the increased efficiency of going from 1xSI to 8xSI being accounted for? If one SI is 89db efficient then having 8 would increase that to 98db. The same voltage would go a lot further.
Cap 4000ULF at 63 Hz measured 127.9 dB
SI HT18 at 63 Hz measured 122.3 db . . . with 283 volts.

A single SI is down 5.6 dB vs a single Cap 4000 ULF

283 volts to 18 volts is a loss of 24.25 dB for a single SI.

1 subwoofer driver to 8 subwoofers is a gain of 18 dB since voltage is also doubling with the doubling of drivers.

-5.6 db - 24.25 dB (voltage drop) + 18 dB (multiple subs) = -11.85 dB (I had rounded a max SPL number earlier in the SI's favor)

If you look at the Cap 1400 or other JTR subs at Data-bass, one can see that they perform very well with their SpeakerPower amplifier. Given that the amplifier output is known and the max SPL is known, one can then surmise that the efficiency of the JTR drivers is extremely high.

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post #1086 of 1408 Old 02-20-2017, 02:27 PM
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Carp, any way you could push the 4000 back in to one of the corners to get it corner loaded? Probably a PITA with the fluffy stuff though
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post #1087 of 1408 Old 02-20-2017, 02:29 PM - Thread Starter
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1 si 18" = x in carps room

2 si = x + 6
4 si = x + 6 + 6

That's for one vertical bank

Add four more drivers in a second vertical bank on the other side of the room and you get only 3dB because the second four aren't colocated with the first four.

So x + 15dB should account for the quantity of si 18ht subs. (Not counting the nearfield)

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post #1088 of 1408 Old 02-20-2017, 02:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
1 si 18" = x in carps room

2 si = x + 6
4 si = x + 6 + 6

That's for one vertical bank

Add four more drivers in a second vertical bank on the other side of the room and you get only 3dB because the second four aren't colocated with the first four.

So x + 15dB should account for the quantity of si 18ht subs. (Not counting the nearfield)

That's about exactly right, I've measured and I get at least 15 at all frequencies, down low I get closer to 18. I can't remember how low, I think it's under 20 hz.
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post #1089 of 1408 Old 02-20-2017, 02:42 PM
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Originally Posted by d_c View Post
Carp, any way you could push the 4000 back in to one of the corners to get it corner loaded? Probably a PITA with the fluffy stuff though
It's pretty much corner loaded now, because right on the other side of the velvet is a stack of subs from floor to ceiling. I'd have to move all those subs to truly get it in the corner.
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post #1090 of 1408 Old 02-20-2017, 02:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by desertdome View Post
Cap 4000ULF at 63 Hz measured 127.9 dB
SI HT18 at 63 Hz measured 122.3 db . . . with 283 volts.

A single SI is down 5.6 dB vs a single Cap 4000 ULF

283 volts to 18 volts is a loss of 24.25 dB for a single SI.

1 subwoofer driver to 8 subwoofers is a gain of 18 dB since voltage is also doubling with the doubling of drivers.

-5.6 db - 24.25 dB (voltage drop) + 18 dB (multiple subs) = -11.85 dB (I had rounded a max SPL number earlier in the SI's favor)

If you look at the Cap 1400 or other JTR subs at Data-bass, one can see that they perform very well with their SpeakerPower amplifier. Given that the amplifier output is known and the max SPL is known, one can then surmise that the efficiency of the JTR drivers is extremely high.


Something has to be missing here though. Like Luke said, that would mean that:

1 Cap 4000 = 32 SI 18's powered by 4 CV 5000 amps.
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post #1091 of 1408 Old 02-20-2017, 03:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by desertdome View Post
Cap 4000ULF at 63 Hz measured 127.9 dB
SI HT18 at 63 Hz measured 122.3 db . . . with 283 volts.

A single SI is down 5.6 dB vs a single Cap 4000 ULF

283 volts to 18 volts is a loss of 24.25 dB for a single SI.

1 subwoofer driver to 8 subwoofers is a gain of 18 dB since voltage is also doubling with the doubling of drivers.

-5.6 db - 24.25 dB (voltage drop) + 18 dB (multiple subs) = -11.85 dB (I had rounded a max SPL number earlier in the SI's favor)

If you look at the Cap 1400 or other JTR subs at Data-bass, one can see that they perform very well with their SpeakerPower amplifier. Given that the amplifier output is known and the max SPL is known, one can then surmise that the efficiency of the JTR drivers is extremely high.
I think the 18v limit per driver is causing some of the discrepancy as well.

If we had a strict 4.0ohm load then yes, 18v is the limit of the CV. However, the impedance minimum for the SI 40hz+ is about 6.3ohm, and additionally, resistance goes up with power. That impedance sweep Ricci took was probably with mV.

The CV has ~170Vrms capable rails, so considering the higher impedance + it's a CEA-2010 burst they'll definitely be seeing more than 18v each.

I'm sure the Cap4000ULF drivers with the low MMS and huge Bl is going to be more efficient than the SI, but with 8x SI your nearing 100db of efficiency and with more power than the SP1-4000.
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post #1092 of 1408 Old 02-20-2017, 03:17 PM - Thread Starter
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How are we accounting for compression?
You can put 283 volts in the SI HT 18" and it might not be much louder than 141.5 volts because of compression. Also I really don't think it's reasonable to say the SI 18HT powered by 1/8 of a CV-5000 (625 watts) is 24.5 dB less than what was measured as powered by Ricci's monster amp. That alone is rather absurd.

From the demo in Sheldon's room I don't think that the ULF 4000 is heads and tails above eight 18" drivers. I'm very familiar with Sheldon's room and I didn't hear the Cap 4000 ULF do anything strikingly better than the eight 18"s. (the observation that just the two drivers were comparable to the 8 sealed was rather startling too though) The same can't be said for my experience in Doug's room - that experience was simply insane - The cap ulf4000 was off the chain in Doug's room, and one of the most powerful bass experiences I've had...(but as we all know the room and sub positioning makes a YUUUGE difference) After Doug's room I was seriously considering buying two ULF4000. After Derek's demo, BeastAudio and Gorilla83, who had missed Doug's demo were also considering buying two ULF 4000s. All three of us have eight sealed 18"s. I'll speak to my initial impression of the ULF 4000 later. It's a BEAST -- Amazing! My new personal favorite JTR Subwoofer.

One more thing that is a variable (and this one is in the 4000 ULF's favor.)

In Sheldon's room - the Cap 4000 ULF was firing directly into the bank of 4 stacked Sealed 18" SI drivers behind that velvet. (carp's SI drivers face out from the corner - the ULF 4000 was facing in towards the corner - both on the front right corner) I have to assume the 18" sealed drivers un-powered would be passively absorbing some of the Cap 4000's acoustic energy. (though the amp would have been hooked up and powered off) Perhaps that was dampening the ULF 4000 to some unknown degree?!?!
I remember from previous subwoofer meets that it was ideal to short the positive and negative terminal on the passive subs not being auditioned to eliminate that passive sympathetic driver movement. I don't really know the science on that. IIRC it was @Mark Seaton that suggested such at one of the meets maybe he can speak to that absorption/dampening point. I don't remember the details these years later. Maybe that is a moot point because the CV-5000 amp was still connected to SI subs but powered down?

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(13) JBL CBT 70j-1 | Denon x7200wa | Sherbourn PA 7-350 amplifier | (8) Ultimax 18" sealed subwoofers | (4) iNuke DSP 6000 amplifiers | (4) MB Quart 12" subwoofers mounted direct mounted to Berkline theater chairs BOSS style | Epson 5040UB Projector | Jamestown 144" acoustic transparent 2.35:1 screen w/ Seymour XD fabric

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post #1093 of 1408 Old 02-20-2017, 03:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post
Something has to be missing here though. Like Luke said, that would mean that:

1 Cap 4000 = 32 SI 18's powered by 4 CV 5000 amps.
Luke and I have been texting. I was calculating on RMS vs peak. Also, at the higher frequencies the impedance would be higher. The amp might be able to do 31 volts per driver peak for a burst test. That results in 8 SI drivers being down 6.85 dB at 63 Hz. However, I was calculating 18 dB of gain for 8 drivers vs 15 dB of gain. If you drop off 3 dB you are down 9.85 dB for 8 SI drivers with a single CV-5000 amp vs a Cap 4000 ULF. Does that sound better?

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post #1094 of 1408 Old 02-20-2017, 03:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
How are we accounting for compression?
You can put 283 volts in the SI HT 18" and it might not be much louder than 141.5 volts because of compression. Also I really don't think it's reasonable to say the SI 18HT powered by 1/8 of a CV-5000 (625 watts) is 24.5 dB less than what was measured as powered by Ricci's monster amp. That alone is rather absurd.

From the demo in Sheldon's room I don't think that the ULF 4000 is heads and tails above eight 18" drivers. I'm very familiar with Sheldon's room and I didn't hear the Cap 4000 ULF do anything strikingly better than the eight 18"s.
(the same can't be said for my experience in Doug's room - that experience was simply insane - The cap ulf4000 was off the chain in Doug's room)...(but as we all know the room and sub positioning makes a YUUUGE difference) After Doug's room I was seriously considering buying two ULF4000. After Derek's demo, BeastAudio and Gorilla83, who had missed Doug's demo were also considering buying two ULF 4000s. I'll speak to my initial impression of the ULF 4000 later. It's a MONSTER -- Amazing! My new personal favorite JTR Subwoofer.

One more thing that is a variable (and this one is in the 4000 ULF's favor.)

In Sheldon's room - the Cap 4000 ULF was firing directly into the bank of 4 stacked Sealed 18" SI drivers behind that velvet. (carp's SI drivers face out from the corner - the ULF 4000 was facing in towards the corner - both on the front right corner) I have to assume the 18" sealed drivers un-powered would be passively absorbing some of the Cap 4000's acoustic energy. (though the amp would have been hooked up and powered off) Perhaps that was dampening the ULF 4000 to some unknown degree?!?!
I remember from previous subwoofer meets that it was ideal to short the positive and negative terminal on the passive subs not being auditioned to eliminate that passive sympathetic driver movement. I don't really know the science on that. IIRC it was @Mark Seaton that suggested such at one of the meets maybe he can speak to that absorption/dampening point. I don't remember the details these years later. Maybe that is a moot point because the CV-5000 amp was still connected to SI subs but powered down?
Compression is a really good point. Jeff brought that to my attention when I was trying to compare the 215RT output numbers based on the K20 tests vs. something like the NU4-6000.

As for the passive cabinets absorbing energy, it's because of the system resonance and it can have very dramatic effects on SPL in the room near that frequency. If I want to do a measurement of the sealed subs without the Othorns and I simply turn off the amp to the Othrons there's a MASSIVE null at their system resonance (38hz). However, if I leave the amp on and just mute the output in the mini all is well. Shorting the binding posts together if no amp is connected would have a similar result.
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post #1095 of 1408 Old 02-20-2017, 03:37 PM
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Originally Posted by desertdome View Post
Luke and I have been texting. I was calculating on RMS vs peak. Also, at the higher frequencies the impedance would be higher. The amp might be able to do 31 volts per driver peak for a burst test. That results in 8 SI drivers being down 6.85 dB at 63 Hz. However, I was calculating 18 dB of gain for 8 drivers vs 15 dB of gain. If you drop off 3 dB you are down 9.85 dB for 8 SI drivers with a single CV-5000 amp vs a Cap 4000 ULF. Does that sound better?

Jeff just called me and said a single 4000 would be pretty even with 8 underpowered SI's. A little less up top but a little more down low. He asked if you were using the numbers from data bass to do your comparison and said you can't do that, something about compression.
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post #1096 of 1408 Old 02-20-2017, 03:42 PM
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I'm going to say this again though...

The fact that we are even discussing a comparison to 8 drivers tells you all you need to know. If it existed when I did my DIY (or AIY) subs I would have bought one for about the same price and had the same output, even more down low. Then I would have saved up for a second one.

If I had unlimited funds I would buy 2 of them now and move my components to my book case instead of my closet.
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post #1097 of 1408 Old 02-20-2017, 04:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
How are we accounting for compression?
You can put 283 volts in the SI HT 18" and it might not be much louder than 141.5 volts because of compression. Also I really don't think it's reasonable to say the SI 18HT powered by 1/8 of a CV-5000 (625 watts) is 24.5 dB less than what was measured as powered by Ricci's monster amp. That alone is rather absurd.
Good point. If you look at the burst tests where the voltage was increased without regard to THD, there was about 3 dB of compression with THD at 47% at 20 Hz. The THD at 63 Hz is 11.5% which leads me to believe less compression was going on at the higher frequencies. The compression on the long term compression tests is in comparison to 4 volts. If you compare 40 volts to 71 volts or 71 volts to 118 volts, the compression is only 1 dB.

Quote:
In Sheldon's room - the Cap 4000 ULF was firing directly into the bank of 4 stacked Sealed 18" SI drivers behind that velvet. (carp's SI drivers face out from the corner - the ULF 4000 was facing in towards the corner - both on the front right corner) I have to assume the 18" sealed drivers un-powered would be passively absorbing some of the Cap 4000's acoustic energy. (though the amp would have been hooked up and powered off) Perhaps that was dampening the ULF 4000 to some unknown degree?!?!
I remember from previous subwoofer meets that it was ideal to short the positive and negative terminal on the passive subs not being auditioned to eliminate that passive sympathetic driver movement. I don't really know the science on that. IIRC it was @Mark Seaton that suggested such at one of the meets maybe he can speak to that absorption/dampening point. I don't remember the details these years later. Maybe that is a moot point because the CV-5000 amp was still connected to SI subs but powered down?
You can either short the terminals or have the amp turned on. Shorting the terminals is necessary when you have a bunch of passive subs sitting in the the room not hooked up yet. The same is true of my surround system. When listening in two channel I turn on all the amps to eliminate any chance of sympathetic excursion.

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post #1098 of 1408 Old 02-20-2017, 04:17 PM
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The amp was not turned on, so that took away a little output from the 4000 then right?
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post #1099 of 1408 Old 02-20-2017, 05:00 PM
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Could measure Cap 4000 with your amp on or off to find out.
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post #1100 of 1408 Old 02-20-2017, 07:31 PM
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Thanks to the seven souls that made the trip to Iowa to the Savoy. Great talking with you guys more and learning about your systems. I hope it was worth the drive. We watched some demo material and then watched Deepwater Horizon. Good times
Just got back home. Thank you for the invite. You have a great space. Well thought out and designed.
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post #1101 of 1408 Old 02-20-2017, 07:32 PM
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FYI, per ULF Calculator:



So, at 12.5hz you would need 9.5 SI 18HTs to match the 4000ULF. 8.7SI at 10hz, etc.



Quick post from me...more to come.
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post #1102 of 1408 Old 02-20-2017, 08:41 PM
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what the cost to diy 1 of those sealed 18 SIs ? (plain, without paint, or tools)
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post #1103 of 1408 Old 02-21-2017, 04:54 AM
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Thanks KC guys for putting on yet another great GTG.

I only got to participate in the Friday night movie (I'll give it a B, that sign language bad girl that easily got taken out didn't play) gathering (awesome pad and hospitality), and then Jonathan, Doug, and JD's setups.
The rear projection at Dontees was a first for me, hadn't seen that take before.
Jonathan you have really done nice work - first time I had been to your new address.
Doug - I like your taste in hobbies, but after seeing the work in saltwater fish and tank maintenance, I think I got a good dose of realism with my wife not gonna have any of a room in the house taken up by all the infrastructure. Awesome work though!

First time experiencing the ceiling g-horns, what a sweet and subliminal location in the ceiling yet still able to see drivers from an angle. Just cool.

I didn't get to see the othorns, but after reading dsl1, luke camp, and your build threads, I have convinced my neighbor who is finishing out his space to build out a pair with me, so 4 total. I just want a pair on casters like you had, he is thinking behind an AT wall.

Jeff's new sub was awesome. Maybe just buy a pair of those instead of building othorns, lol. Crazy.

If you guys get tired of passing the new mains around and/or sub, and they need to detour up to Omaha guys, I'll come down and get them!


Thanks all, great to be back

Greg
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post #1104 of 1408 Old 02-21-2017, 05:27 AM
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what the cost to diy 1 of those sealed 18 SIs ? (plain, without paint, or tools)
If you could get the SIs still (no longer produced), around a street price of $400-$450 on average with shared amplification per SI. This assumes you build the cab yourself.
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post #1105 of 1408 Old 02-21-2017, 07:25 AM
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Thanks a ton to the hosts and organizers! What a great trip!
So many awesome setups.

Also, thanks to you guys for posting the frequency response graphs.
That makes it much easier to wrap my head around what I thought I heard.
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post #1106 of 1408 Old 02-21-2017, 07:38 AM
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Thanks to the seven souls that made the trip to Iowa to the Savoy. Great talking with you guys more and learning about your systems. I hope it was worth the drive. We watched some demo material and then watched Deepwater Horizon. Good times
Thanks dlbeck.
This is officially going to be the starting point for planning my theater.
Great audio/video, great aesthetics, just a wonderful space to spend time time in.

So many awesome theaters over the weekend, each with their own strengths.

I was surprised to see that you guys with 8+ sealed 18" subs aren't crazy.
Congratulations on perfect bass and unexpected sanity.
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post #1107 of 1408 Old 02-21-2017, 08:44 AM
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What a great time this weekend! It was awesome seeing old faces and meeting lots of new (new to me - at least in person) members. Thanks to all the hosts for the hard work and dedication - I know what it takes to pull these types of events off and it's certainly no small feat. Everyone was very well prepared and hospitable and every room we visited had something outstanding and noteworthy to share.


Aside from excellent sound and sights, we indulged in some FANTASTIC BBQ all weekend long and ended with a tour of the Boulevard brewery yesterday morning. These events are so much more than just AV demoing at this point. We've evolved into a touring/social group at this point, LOL. It really is great though.


Chuck @cvinfig - Thanks for letting us hang before/after the movie. Your place is first-rate cool on many levels - the theater, top floor deck, and overall layout is really impressive. Many thanks to you and the wife - hopefully the cleanup wasn't too bad.

Jonathan @Archaea - a special thanks for organizing all of this and for hosting us this weekend. It's always fun to catch up with you guys. It was great to check out your room finally. The effort you've put into the setup and component selection is quite obvious after listening for just a few minutes. Everything sounds and looks awesome man, great job.

Doug @d_c a special thanks (and apology as well) for self-destructing your home (and boat haha) for the enjoyment of us maniacs. It was awesome hanging with you and the wife and sharing car/truck stories. Your room(s) are coming along well and your sub(s) setup is downright scary. Looking forward to returning the favor when you manage to make it out East.

Carp @carp - Once again great seeing you and glad to finally get to check out your place. Your room sounds and looks fantastic - great job! Thanks for the extended hospitality.

More to come (hopefully tonight) regarding my thoughts/impressions from the various sessions.....
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Last edited by Gorilla83; 02-21-2017 at 10:51 AM.
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post #1108 of 1408 Old 02-21-2017, 08:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bulls View Post
what the cost to diy 1 of those sealed 18 SIs ? (plain, without paint, or tools)
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Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post
If you could get the SIs still (no longer produced), around a street price of $400-$450 on average with shared amplification per SI. This assumes you build the cab yourself.
Now days the Dayton UM 18 is the driver to get. It has a db or so more output than the HT. I think it's around 250 for that driver? Archaea has 8 of them in a huge basement and it's really impressive.

I'm really kicking myself for not doing some real heavy hitting bass scenes and for only having Paolo spend time in the main seat feeling the difference between the near field sub on/off, crowsons on/off, both on/off, that kind of thing. I've had a lot of PM's about Crowson vs. nearfield sub vs a bunch of subs up front - that kind of thing and I really wasn't able to help anyone out there. I think Paolo and that small group of us that stayed late after group B was done could have experimented and played around all night with different scenes.

I'm crazy busy for the next few months, but this summer I will have nothing but time for people that want to demo all that and are trying to decide how to go about getting the best bass for their tastes for the least amount of money.
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post #1109 of 1408 Old 02-21-2017, 09:00 AM
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Wanted to say thank you to all the hosts, especially to Derek and Jonathan for allowing me to stay at each of your houses. The presentations of the theaters was very good and Doug, your food was excellent. You guys have theaters that you can be very proud of. They perform at high levels. This would be a good trip for anybody that was considering building a theater.

I got my receipt for my rental. Did 698 miles traveling to each of the theaters, after flying to KC. That trip to the Savoy really added the miles, but glad I went. Only ate at two of the BBQ restaurants, but my vote would have to go to Q39.

Jonathan's nearfield subs were a blast and Carp, you have plenty of bass. I would stick with what you have. When you can make small handguns sound and feel like 12 gauge shotguns, you don't need any more. Rcohen and dlbeck, enjoying traveling with you guys to the theaters. The company was much welcomed. Will try to post more thoughts later.
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Last edited by Mike Garrett; 02-21-2017 at 09:20 AM.
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post #1110 of 1408 Old 02-21-2017, 09:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
1 si 18" = x in carps room

2 si = x + 6
4 si = x + 6 + 6

That's for one vertical bank

Add four more drivers in a second vertical bank on the other side of the room and you get only 3dB because the second four aren't colocated with the first four.

So x + 15dB should account for the quantity of si 18ht subs. (Not counting the nearfield)
I have heard some people claim that doubling non-colocated subs can get up to 6db in some cases.

I'm not sure of the details, or how accurate this is.
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